Is there any source for their assertion that one should not read books whose authors were not G-d fearing? I grew up on Enid Blyton and Roald Dahl, and my children are growing up on JK Rowling and Anthony Horowitz. Not sure how religious any of them are/were. Is reading Walder's books so harmful in comparison?
Rav Yisrael Salanter, encouraged the printing and distribution of the mussar work, “Cheshbon HaNefesh”, a book which is predominantly based upon the writings of Benjamin Franklin, a non-Jew. The book is accepted to this day in the yeshiva world as a kind of a mussar book and is reprinted from time to time.
Similarly, Rav Eliyahu Dessler reportedly recommended reading Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People", also written by a non-Jew.
The Rambam read works by the Greeks; and was of the opinion, “that we should accept the truth from he who speaks it".
As a person, Walder may have been very flawed, but the messages in his books are positive. Therefore, I think that we can listen to his message, and not focus on the messenger.
There is some merit, but Aristotle, for example, was dead 1500 years already, when rambam studied his books. Walder apparently was allegedly abusing kids in Israel, in frum community. The gravity of the situation is different from Dale Carnegie who you cite.
You wrote: "A friend of mine in Israel says he heard a couple of rabbis say..." http://disq.us/p/2lox35l Don't edit the comment, in order to disprove me.
it means several things - It means a) there were strong allegations b) these have not been investigated by the police or an Israeli criminal court c) The BD has investigated, but if i present their comments as facts, you will ar-aer them, ie undermine the halachic basis as the BD didn't hear both sides.
There is a Clint Eastwood movie , where he is a polcieman, and the commisioner is accusing him of shooting an alleged rapist without evidence - to which Eastwood says that when a naked man is chasing a woman with a knife in his hand, it is clear he is not collecting for the salvation army.
Problem is what is associated with his name. In UK was a famous celebrity called Jimmy savvile . After his death it was revealed he was a big abuser. So all his material is no longer being shown to the public.
Walder’s books are the center of this discussion. His victims will not be helped in any meaningful way, by people throwing away his books, or by preventing children from accessing them.
I'm not responsible for UK programming choices, which includes many factors in their decision making process, as opposed to a personal decision by a parent to allow their children access to Walder’s books.
Also, Jimmy Savile, was mainly a television and radio personality, and is not known as much for his books. So when showing JS material, we're idolizing a pervert.
In contrast, when a person reads a Walder book, they're not focusing on the personality of the author, rather on the message of his stories. Therefore, I think that we can listen to his message, and ignore the messenger.
I've not seen his content, so I don't know. However, having the name around your kids is not so smart. If a homo_gaie author wrote splendid books, even cookbooks, would you want them around your house?
I said at the start, you have a good argument, so I agree maybe 80% with you. Just don't feel totally comfortable for things to continue the same. I also, as a skeptic, don't think any of these measures, banning, shaming etc will deter the next one. It's a sociopathic disorder, like Epstein et al.
When you read a book by a Gentile, you know what you're getting. If it's a notorious apikorus, you know what you getting. The problem is these books were written by "one of us" so the danger isn't so visible. However, a possible compromise would be to continue to sell the books but remove his name from them and donate the proceeds of all charities to charities that assist victims of rape and molestation.
As a parent, at this point, I would rather not have to have a conversation with my young children, why they can’t read “Kids Speak”, and other books by Walder, anymore.
In my opinion, such a discussion is not age appropriate for them, and I strongly disagree with all those well-meaning people, who for the sake of political correctness, are encouraging people to start having conversations with children, about matters that children do not have to know about at this time.
I will NOT create any scenes, by publicly removing his books from the book shelves in the house, nor will I make then “disappear”, when the children aren’t looking.
If they borrow one if his books from a friend, I will NOT say anything to them, nor will I say anything to the friend’s parents.
If they want to buy a new book in the store, I imagine that the stores aren’t carrying them anymore, so I’ll just say, that it looks like that his books are out of stock, so let’s try to find a different book for you.
If they find out in 5-10 years time, about the allegations against him, and they ask me then, why, once upon a time, did I let them read Walder’s books?
I’ll answer them, with a straight face, and with a clear conscience; that now that they’re more mature and knowledgeable of the ways for the world, they can decide for themselves what they want to read. But as a parent, I didn’t want to burden them, with information that was not age appropriate for them, so I decided to let them read his books, because they’re actually pretty good, and there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with them, except that the author was accused of being flawed in his personal behavior.
I would add, that we need to remember that people aren’t always perfect, and if the author failed his personal “Nisyonos”, that doesn’t mean that his works are now “Treif”. We should learn to accept that good books are sometimes written by flawed people. We are permitted to accept the message/s of the book, and ignore the flaws of the messenger.
I accept what you say and I'm not telling anyone else what they should do. But, since we previously had discussions on various topics, would you maintain the same position, if hypothetical other author was writing books, and later you find out he was feigley?
This was almost a month ago, and since then he was involved in investigation , together with Rav Elyahu shlita.
ReplyDeleteIs there any source for their assertion that one should not read books whose authors were not G-d fearing? I grew up on Enid Blyton and Roald Dahl, and my children are growing up on JK Rowling and Anthony Horowitz. Not sure how religious any of them are/were. Is reading Walder's books so harmful in comparison?
ReplyDeleteYes Igros Moshe
ReplyDeleteHowever this is widely ignored in America regarding secular books in yeshiva and Beis Yakov
Rav Yisrael Salanter, encouraged the printing and distribution of the mussar work, “Cheshbon HaNefesh”, a book which is predominantly based upon the writings of Benjamin Franklin, a non-Jew. The book is accepted to this day in the yeshiva world as a kind of a mussar book and is reprinted from time to time.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, Rav Eliyahu Dessler reportedly recommended reading Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People", also written by a non-Jew.
The Rambam read works by the Greeks; and was of the opinion, “that we should accept the truth from he who speaks it".
As a person, Walder may have been very flawed, but the messages in his books are positive. Therefore, I think that we can listen to his message, and not focus on the messenger.
What frightens me is I've heard of calls that his books should be publicly burned. The hysteria is getting out of hand.
ReplyDeletea good argument, but i respectfully disagree with you at this point in time
ReplyDelete馃弳馃弳馃弳馃弳馃弳馃弳
ReplyDeleteIf my argument is a good one, then why do you disagree?
ReplyDeleteWho called that Walder's books should be publicly burned?
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine in Israel says he heard a couple of rabbis say "Not only forbidden but should be burned". It scared me.
ReplyDeleteI can't argue with unnamed phantoms.
ReplyDeleteThere is some merit, but Aristotle, for example, was dead 1500 years already, when rambam studied his books.
ReplyDeleteWalder apparently was allegedly abusing kids in Israel, in frum community. The gravity of the situation is different from Dale Carnegie who you cite.
https://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2021/12/should-walders-books-be-burned.html
ReplyDeletethank you
ReplyDeletethis one is even better
https://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2021/12/rabbi-jj-jacobson-and-rabbi-eisenman.html
There's no reference there to any rabbis.
ReplyDeleteNever said rabbis. Just said I heard calls.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: "A friend of mine in Israel says he heard a couple of rabbis say..."
ReplyDeletehttp://disq.us/p/2lox35l
Don't edit the comment, in order to disprove me.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/319590
ReplyDeleteWhat does allegedly mean- to you?
ReplyDeleteThat it seems that it is true but needs to be concealed
it means several things -
ReplyDeleteIt means a) there were strong allegations
b) these have not been investigated by the police or an Israeli criminal court
c) The BD has investigated, but if i present their comments as facts, you will ar-aer them, ie undermine the halachic basis as the BD didn't hear both sides.
There is a Clint Eastwood movie , where he is a polcieman, and the commisioner is accusing him of shooting an alleged rapist without evidence - to which Eastwood says that when a naked man is chasing a woman with a knife in his hand, it is clear he is not collecting for the salvation army.
book burning mentioned here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2021/12/issues-surrounding-predators-its-all.html
no mention of semicha tho
Today, Walder is dead, and buried. Why should we prevent children from accessing good wholesome reading material?
ReplyDeleteProblem is what is associated with his name. In UK was a famous celebrity called Jimmy savvile . After his death it was revealed he was a big abuser. So all his material is no longer being shown to the public.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the books are secondary. The terrible matter is the victims. And how to help them , and prevent further crime.
ReplyDeleteWhat comes to mind is
驻讬诇讙砖 讘讙讘注讛
how is this for example?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thejc.com/news/news/publisher-removes-children's-book-that-erases-israel-after-legal-challenge-1uzPbjyHmOS1OdLOaPphO8
I'm sure you would agree in this case to remove the book!
Walder’s books are the center of this discussion. His victims will not be helped in any meaningful way, by people throwing away his books, or by preventing children from accessing them.
ReplyDeleteI'm not responsible for UK programming choices, which includes many factors in their decision making process, as opposed to a personal decision by a parent to allow their children access to Walder’s books.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Jimmy Savile, was mainly a television and radio personality, and is not known as much for his books. So when showing JS material, we're idolizing a pervert.
In contrast, when a person reads a Walder book, they're not focusing on the personality of the author, rather on the message of his stories. Therefore, I think that we can listen to his message, and ignore the messenger.
I've not seen his content, so I don't know.
ReplyDeleteHowever, having the name around your kids is not so smart. If a homo_gaie author wrote splendid books, even cookbooks, would you want them around your house?
I said at the start, you have a good argument, so I agree maybe 80% with you. Just don't feel totally comfortable for things to continue the same.
I also, as a skeptic, don't think any of these measures, banning, shaming etc will deter the next one. It's a sociopathic disorder, like Epstein et al.
When you read a book by a Gentile, you know what you're getting. If it's a notorious apikorus, you know what you getting. The problem is these books were written by "one of us" so the danger isn't so visible.
ReplyDeleteHowever, a possible compromise would be to continue to sell the books but remove his name from them and donate the proceeds of all charities to charities that assist victims of rape and molestation.
IR: "I'm not responsible for UK programming choices"
ReplyDeleteyes, you are, 100% :)
Good Shabbos!
馃挴馃挴馃挴馃挴馃挴馃挴
ReplyDeleteWe're not throwing out his books either.
The messages were always true and very beautifully written.
As a parent, at this point, I would rather not have to have a conversation with my young children, why they can’t read “Kids Speak”, and other books by Walder, anymore.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, such a discussion is not age appropriate for them, and I strongly disagree with all those well-meaning people, who for the sake of political correctness, are encouraging people to start having conversations with children, about matters that children do not have to know about at this time.
I will NOT create any scenes, by publicly removing his books from the book shelves in the house, nor will I make then “disappear”, when the children aren’t looking.
If they borrow one if his books from a friend, I will NOT say anything to them, nor will I say anything to the friend’s parents.
If they want to buy a new book in the store, I imagine that the stores aren’t carrying them anymore, so I’ll just say, that it looks like that his books are out of stock, so let’s try to find a different book for you.
If they find out in 5-10 years time, about the allegations against him, and they ask me then, why, once upon a time, did I let them read Walder’s books?
I’ll answer them, with a straight face, and with a clear conscience; that now that they’re more mature and knowledgeable of the ways for the world, they can decide for themselves what they want to read. But as a parent, I didn’t want to burden them, with information that was not age appropriate for them, so I decided to let them read his books, because they’re actually pretty good, and there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with them, except that the author was accused of being flawed in his personal behavior.
I would add, that we need to remember that people aren’t always perfect, and if the author failed his personal “Nisyonos”, that doesn’t mean that his works are now “Treif”. We should learn to accept that good books are sometimes written by flawed people. We are permitted to accept the message/s of the book, and ignore the flaws of the messenger.
Another magnificent posting.
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what I am doing.
I accept what you say and I'm not telling anyone else what they should do.
ReplyDeleteBut, since we previously had discussions on various topics, would you maintain the same position, if hypothetical other author was writing books, and later you find out he was feigley?