Update: One of the solid questions addressed to Rabbi Bechhofer is that in view of his extreme concern with being fair to Tamar, the Kaminetskys and Rav Greenblatt - he is willing to ignore the very consistent and strong evidence against them because maybe maybe - there is another explanation in their favor. The problem is that his extreme avoidance of making judgments only applies to Tamar and her supporters - he does not apply this approach to Aharon Friedman but has called repeatedly called him a rasha and makes no attempt to find circumstances that might justify his actions. Why the double standard?
=========================
Rabbi Bechhofer - you are probably the only person in the world who is aware of the outrage about the heter given to Tamar Epstein - and yet claims not to have yet made up his mind about whether the heter is valid.
=========================
Rabbi Bechhofer - you are probably the only person in the world who is aware of the outrage about the heter given to Tamar Epstein - and yet claims not to have yet made up his mind about whether the heter is valid.
You have made a number of inaccurate statements in your comments defending the Kaminetskys and Rav Greenblatt - such as that everyone agrees that the facts presented to Rabbi Greenblatt by Rav Shalom Kaminetsky are true and the only issue is whether they justify the heter. You also claimed that the Baltimore Beis Din did not say that Aharon did not have mental health issues. You have claimed that the rabbis signed letters without any independent knowledge of the facts. That Aharon Friedman did not have his child taken away from him. And finally that this heter is none of our business - contrary to what is clear from all the letters.
Here are some of your comments
Whoa! They did not dispute the facts, they disputed the conclusion. A psychologist who dealt with Aharon directly related his assessment to a frum psychiatrist who gathered additional data and came to a conclusion. That is what R' Shalom said and that is what happened.
AF did not have his kid "taken away." He has her every other Shabbos, half the Yomim Tovim and half the summer. This is the biggest single piece of disinformation that has been put out there.
1. It's your word against the psychiatrist's. No more, no less.2. I did not see that the Balto. BD said that. In any event, they are not experts in mental health.3. So long as she was pursuing a get that she thought could be obtained, it was not necessary to reveal the mental health issues.4. Again, your word against the psychiatrist's.5. RNG is certainly entitled to his own opinion - much as you may resent it.6. Mekach ta'us does not require "total craziness." I did not see RSK assert he was a lunatic.To reiterate: "No one was tricked. The facts as set out by Reb Shalom are accurate. Reb Shmuel and Reb Nota based their heter on those facts. You can dispute the heter - as I have said numerous times, I am not taking a position on it - but the facts were and are correct."
I just received the following letter and I think it is a good idea. I would like to publish a cogent post from you defending the Epstein Heter - or at least showing why an intelligent person would have trouble deciding whether it is valid
Shalom Rabbi Eidensohn,
First, let me begin by saying thank you for your excellent and diligent posts regarding the Epstein situation. It has really allowed people such as myself to engage this situation with a level of access and scrutiny that would have been impossible just a few short years ago.
I am, as I assume you are as well, growing somewhat tired with Rabbi Bechhofer's attempts to justify the circumstances. I find that his comments are obfuscatory and only serve to dodge the issue with an unfortunately condescending undertone.
----------------- Here are some comments Rabbi Bechhofer recently made in response--If I could make a suggestion which is why not publicly offer him a chance to present a coherent and cogent defense with a guest post?In that way we could understand exactly what he intends clearly on the record and hopefully have a more meaningful conversation. I suspect it would also expose just how flimsy his stance really is, especially if he were to refuse to engage.Kol tuv and hatzlacha rabba with the important work,
This and a number of other his statements are found in the comments section to this post:
I am not sure how to defend my views if in the end I have my own doubts as to the validity of the heter! How about this summation:
1. The Haifa teshuva and others provide basis for the applicability of mekach ta'us. There is room to argue whether they apply to this case or not.
2. I do not believe anyone is lying or distorting anything. There is enough material for halachic uncertainty even if we assume everyone is telling the truth.
2a. There has been far too much twisting and extruding of the facts to the detriment of honest disagreement. This is unfortunate and demoralizing.
3. I disagree with several of the a priori assertions made here, in posts and more so in comments. I have noted these disagreements individually, and do not feel that it is necessary to collect them into a guest post.
4. I became involved in commenting on this issue here because I see it as directly linked to the last time my picture (the same one!) graced the masthead of this blog: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/...============================
Perhaps Rabbi Bechhofer's most important claim - and one that I feel is totally unreasonable - is that the reason that Tamar did not make any claims of severe personality disorders either to the Beis Din of Baltimore, the secular court during the hearing regarding custody and visitation or even in the privacy of her own diary - is because she felt that she would receive a Get, obtain custody and proper visitation without having to mention that Aharon suffered from severe mental health problems. This is his point #2 concerning the major discrepancies between Tamar's statements about Aharon while she was seeking a Get versus the claims about Aharon made when she decided she didn't need a Get.
In order to understand where RYGB is coming from it is worthwhile to note that RYGB had stated that he supports mandatory Get-on-demand, he supports using force on a husband who doesn't want to give a divorce in a simple ma'os alei case, and he supports the halachic validity of Gets procured under duress by ORA tactics and by Mendel Epstein tactics. All this he has clearly stated and confirmed a number of times.
ReplyDeleteStill doesn't justify a major misunderstanding of the facts of this case
ReplyDeleteThe 'facts' are not correct. Her own handwritten 'diary' contradicts any craziness, or any 'inability' to live a married life (let alone civil court and bet din proceedings.)
ReplyDelete(Interestingly, it is she who may have problems living a married life, based on past actions, both pre and post the actual divorce. Of course, nothing a little money can't solve, or at least smooth over.)
Please. Why do we care? This is a man who clearly has no regard for halacha. Why not ask Avi Weiss what he thinks too?
ReplyDeleteonce and for all, and i mean for all generations, the Frum world needs a clear cut P'sak Halacha 9if there is a machlokes poskim let that be known too) on the issues that Mr. Ginsberg mentions.
ReplyDelete1- Get on Demand
2- Ma'as Alei
3- ORA tactics
4- Gets obtained under duress
5- Settlement of issues before a Get is written
6- Beatings of husbands
7- Seurvim against woman
Poskin should write teshuva about these issues
Rabbis Sternbach, the chief rabbis in israel, Rav Schechter, Rabbi Belsky, Rabbi Ralbag, Rabbo Bick, Hisachsos etc.. all those involvred in gitten today
For the record, I just saw that R' Bechofer accepted my invitation in which I wrote (in part):
ReplyDelete"I'd be happy to meet with you and go through these issues POINT-BY-POINT. Tell me, are you ready? These are issues that show, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the evaluation is OBJECTIVELY worthless. You obviously know nothing about how forensics are supposed to be done, since you keep on quoting that first psychologist, who never even did a formal forensic diagnosis. No differential diagnosis, no evaluation of environmental and social issues, no eval of functioning levels. Turning OCD and PPD into untreatable conditions,
when the research says otherwise. The list of issues is very loooong.
To which he responded:
"Sure, let's meet! Email me at ygbechhofer@gmail.com and we'll take it from there."
... and I just emailed him this response:
Dear R' Bechofer;
First off, Gut Voch!
I'm writing to you to accept your invitation for a point-by-point discussion concerning the Aharon Freidman הפקעת קידושין.
We should probably start with some ground rules. I can think of a few off the top of my head, please feel free to add your own.
1) Obviously, everything has to be על פי תורה. After all we're both
Orthodox Jews, right? So I think it's only fair that wherever a question
of Halacha or Hashkafa comes up, we'd BOTH be required to back up our
claims from authoritative Halacha and / or Hashkafa. When any one of us
states an Halachic etc. opinion and the other states proofs why it's
objectively wrong, the first party needs to, at the very least, prove
that it remains a matter of subjectivity. Makes sense to you?
2) Psychology and the Social Sciences plays a big role in this story, so I
guess a similar ground rule would apply here, too. Let's say one of us
says I'm relying on "Mental Health Professional X" who says so and so
and the other states proof why what MHP claims or did lacks validity,
breaks ethics rules, etc. The first party would need to prove that MHP's
claim remains acceptable. This might not seem fair, as I happen to
think I know a bit about the mental Health field (of course, I may be
hallucinating), and you say you don't. To level the playing field,
you're more than welcome to talk to your friends and acquaintances in MH
and get back with a response.
3) Everything is on the record. We can each record our conversations, so there should be absolutely no misunderstandings.
One more thing, I'd like to invite Rabbi Eidensohn to participate. I think
it's only fair for his role in bringing this saga to light .. and
besides, he's the "shadchan" between us, and doesn't he deserve some
"shadchunos"?
I may think of some more things, but first I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Looking forward to a fruitful discussion, I remain;
Ploni
given his record on this topic I think it is a major waste of time unless he first clearly states his views and why he holds them.
ReplyDeleteHis reading of the material has been sloppy and his conclusions seem to be wishful thinking
However he is a rare commodity these days - someone who doesn't clearly agree that the heter is wrong
My thinking:
ReplyDeleteI'm unbelievably short on time, but first let's see if he's ready for an ON THE RECORD conversation.
ממה נפשך, if he has some secret knowledge and depth that nobody else has - wonderful! Won't you change your mind then?
... and if it ends up being as you say (and i also strongly suspect) "His reading of the material has been sloppy and his conclusions seem to be wishful thinking" ... nu .. so don't forget - it's all recorded and we both agree that the discussion can be freely shared....
The only problem for me is finding time ... but the subject is so important..
And this is why this blog is going off the rails. RYGB is a talmid halacha with a strong regard for halacha. If he holds a different position he has based it on his halachic knowledge. To compare him to Rabbi Avi Weiss is facetious and insulting. It's one thing to disagree but is it now "the Torah way" to consider the person you disagree with as no longer deserving of respect?
ReplyDeleteCan I clarify one thing? It's ma'us. Ma'os is money, ma'as is a load.
ReplyDelete#3 is absurd. I thought we would be meeting over coffee for a chat. I remain open to that possibility and maintain the open invitation to such a meeting.
ReplyDeleteWhy a guest post? You summed up my doubts succinctly.
ReplyDeletePS I made some further comments this evening which I hope our esteemed host will incorporate in this or some future summation of my doubts.
ReplyDeleteNot quite. I would not condone force where forbidden by law even where warranted by halacha, I would not support using force in a "simple ma'os alei case," and I am not at all sure that ME tactics produce valid gittin. Moreover, I am not sure what "mandatory" means in this contact. I do endorse the duress of ORA tactics so long as they are within the parameters of Harchaka d'RT.
ReplyDeleteWasn't Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky his Rosh Yeshiva? Obviously Rabbi Bechofer will be biased.
ReplyDeleteI quote: “He who isolates himself pursues his desires;
ReplyDeleteHe disdains all competence. The fool does not desire understanding, But only to
air his thoughts. Comes the wicked man comes derision, And with the rogue,
contempt. The words a man speaks are deep waters, A flowing stream, a fountain
of wisdom. It is not right to be partial to the guilty And subvert the innocent
in judgment. The words of a fool lead to strife; His speech invites blows. The
fool’s speech is his ruin; His words are a trap for him. The words of a
querulous man are bruising; They penetrate one’s inmost parts.” (Proverbs
18:1-8).
Amazing, King Solomon repeats Proverbs 26:22 in Proverbs
18:8
Malbim on Mishley by Wengrov page 269:
“Just as sparks are not enough to raise a great
fire---fuel is necessary---so a merely quarrelsome person may kindle an
argument that reaches the courts, but it takes a grumbler, filled with inner
resentments, to start a conflagration of violent hatred(=stunning blows that
penetrate deep into the body)….”
מלבי"ם
משלי פרק יח פסוק ח
(ח) דברי נרגן כמתלהמים, מן השאלה הזאת יעמוד
נרגן, שגדרו מי שמתלונן תמיד על ה' שבראו לרעתו ושהרעות בעולם הם רב מן הטובות, ושטוב
לו שלא נברא, ובזה יתלונן תמיד על הנהגת ה' עמו כי עזבו אל המקרה, ודבריו כמתלהמים,
כאילו ה' מכה אותו תמיד ועושה עמו רעות, והם ירדו חדרי בטן, ר"ל שהרעות ומהלומות
האלה אינם חוצה לו רק נמצאים בחדרי בטנו ובמצפון מחשבותיו, שהוא בדמיונו דואג תמיד
ומתלונן ומצייר לו שכל מה שיש לזולתו חסר לו, וכל טובות ה' כאילו הם רעות, כמשל העורים
שהזכיר בחבה"ל, וכמ"ש במורה על כי האלהים עשה את האדם ישר, באופן שמקור הרעות
הם בעצמו ובדמיונו, ודבריו בעצמם מכים ומהלימים אותו, לא מכות מבחוץ, שאם לא ירגן ימצא
בהפך שהכל לטובה, והכל חסד וברכה וישמח בחלקו ונפשו תגיל בישועת ה', שה' ברא את האדם
ישר והכין הכל לתועלתו:
"the heter is wrong" and very dangerous to the integrity of Klal Yisroel!
ReplyDeleteMay as well ask for the true Mashiach to come ASAP!
ReplyDeleteHe is speaking from his gut and not from his brain. While we would all like to beat up bad guys, the world does not work that way because the laws of the jungle are incompatible with the laws of civilization not to mention with the laws of Halacha as it is practiced today in the Torah world.
ReplyDeleteNot as rare as you think
ReplyDeleteWhy. Open an Otzar Haposkim אבן העזר ס׳עז. ומאיליו יקרא. Just look at the overwhelming majority regarding מאוס עלי or כפייה בגט.
ReplyDeleteIf you knew R Bechoffer you would know he is a very chashuve תלמיד חכם. Thus the תמיה גדולה regarding his opinion on this topic.
ReplyDeleteYosef Gavriel Bechhofer Moe says “Not quite. I would not condone
ReplyDeleteforce where forbidden by law even where warranted by halacha, I would not
support using force in a "simple ma'os alei case," and I am not at
all sure that ME tactics produce valid gittin. Moreover, I am not sure what
"mandatory" means in this contact. I do endorse the duress of ORA
tactics so long as they are within the parameters of Harchaka d'RT.”
Malbim on Mishley by Wengrov page 269:
“Just as sparks are not enough to raise a great
fire---fuel is necessary---so a merely quarrelsome person may kindle an
argument that reaches the courts, but it takes a grumbler, filled with inner
resentments, to start a conflagration of violent hatred(=stunning blows that
penetrate deep into the body)….”
Tell us, please, what are your inner resentments? Are they the inner resentments of the radical
feminists? Surely, you agree that today
the radical feminists are grumblers with inner resentment, as the Malbim
describes, that could, Heaven forbid, start a conflagration of violent hatred. The
radical feminists are conducting war on the rest of us.
Do you endorse הרחקת רבינו תם in a case of מאוס עלי?
ReplyDeleteYou're not concerned about he-said she-said types of issues? how do you propose we minimize misunderstands, then?
ReplyDelete... and the supposedly "civilized" world has a nasty habit of confusing who is actually "good" and who is "bad", since they go for soundbites and not fact-checking.
ReplyDeleteMy latest note to R' Bechofer:
ReplyDeleteI was saying that Tamar herself can't rely on a diagnosis which
relies on supposed facts that she - in her own handwriting -
contradicts.
I wrote about it here:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-neutral-psychologist-refutes.html
... and RNG can't rely on a a diagnosis that breaks every ethics rule on
the book about about how forensic diagnosis should be given. That's well
explained in many places on this blog. Perhaps the most authoritative
is the paper from the architect of the DSM himself, Allen Frances. It's
on pgs. 42-52 of this post:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamars-use-of-secular-evaluations-for.html
You might also care to see:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/is-there-any-valid-reason-for-posek-in.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-lets-call-spade.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/another-gigantic-nail-in-coffin-of.html
The
whole 50+ pgs. might be worth skimming through .. and imho if you פסל
Aharon without doing so, it's an איסור דאורייתא of מוצאי שם רע.
That's
what I meant last time I asked you about why you're not worried about
הוצאת שם רע - I wasn't "shooting from the hip", but rather alluding to
the חפץ חיים הל' לשה"ר כלל י' במ"ח סק"ט:
ט) שלא יגדיל העולה וכו'.
פשוט הוא דהוא בכלל שקר, ומוציא שם רע נקרא עבור זה. ... המעשה הזה, שאם
ידעו השומעים את החלק ההוא לא יחשב בעיניהם דבר זה לעולה גדולה כל כך,
וכשישמיט המספר את הפרט הזה יתבזה בעיניהם מאוד, צריך ליזהר מאוד שלא
להשמיט.
... and imho that's just the tip of the
iceberg. ORA really picked the wrong guy to make "exhibit a" of get
refusal, based on VERIFIABLE facts .. but I digress.
Care to comment on the substance of these issues?
Other תלמידי חכמים have "gone off" in the past. Anyone who believes what this guy believes is chazer treif. I don't care how much ירושלמי he knows.
ReplyDeleteI've read what he holds. He does not back himself up with ANY real sources. He feels he needs to fix the halacha, which gives women a raw deal. Period. If he came up with anything substantive, that's what we'd be discussing. He doesn't. This man is dangerous, precisely because people think he is chusiv.
ReplyDelete"but is it now "the Torah way" to consider the person you disagree with as no longer deserving of respect?"
ReplyDeleteThe issue is not RYGB, as wrong as he may be on this issue.At this point, Shalom Kamenetzky is the one who is no longer deserving of respect. Nothing in this case will move forward until someone big can take the bold and courageous step of saying that publicly.
I find it amusing that AF is suffering from such a "serious" paranoia disorder that he fell for the Epstein's ruse and didn't call authorities to report Tamar's abduction of their child based on the Epstein side's assurances that things would be worked out.
ReplyDeleteTo me it sounds like he's not paranoid enough...
R Bechhofer has consistely refused to deal with the substance of the issue - instead he simply dismisses objections or doesn't consider facts contrary to his allegations as worthy. He has dismissed the rabbis who signed protest letters as simply blindly following Rav Miller - even though he has no proof of this allegations which is clearly false.
ReplyDeleteIn sum he is simply smirking and dancing to his own tune without saying anything intelligent or accurate regarding this matter. it is clear it is a waste of time getting him to deal with facts
that is the issue in a nutshell
ReplyDeleteNope! Listing your objections which have been refuted over and over - doesn't constitute a cogent presentation defending your position. If you don't want to do it so just say so. Based on your background we had hopes for something with substance. You are the only person in the world who seems to be willing to claim that perhaps there is something valid to Tamar's heter. So far none of us have seen you presenting a defense of your views.
ReplyDelete“The Organization for the
ReplyDeleteResolution of Agunot (ORA) believes that a get must never be used as a weapon.
The Jewish divorce process requires the participation of both parties. All too
often, a spouse refuses to comply in order to control the other party and
utilize the get to extort concessions.” (internet)
“Agunah International. Our
Mission: To free women trapped in dead
marriages by recalcitrant husbands who refuse to grant a Get.” (internet)
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon
Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring
Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have
protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a
website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional
Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which
supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect
because many husbands still are resistant after "all the bullets have been
fired."”
Rav Greenblatt and Rav Kaminetsky have been
radicalized feminists. They took the
feminist’s battles for a get on demand to a whole new level. Why? Because, as Susan says social media has
little effect because many husbands still are resistant after "all the
bullets have been fired."”
Mendel Epstein (internet):
“He laughed about how he would keep police off his
trail in Brooklyn, where he also lived.
"They couldn't try me in Brooklyn," he's
heard telling the agents. "The whole jury would be women. They'd say 'Hang
him (the husband). Kill him!'"”
Malbim on Mishley by Wengrov (Proverbs 18:8 and 26:22 “The
words of a querulous man [דברי נרגן] are bruising; They
penetrate one’s inmost parts.”) p. 190:
“The “grumbler” [דברי נרגן] constantly complains that the Almighty created him for a
miserable life, evil being more prevalent than good; would that he had never
been born. The Almighty (says he) has
abandoned him to a chance fate. His
words are like blows, as though HA-Shem were always striking him down. The truth is, however, that the clouts and
blows are all within, from his own perverse vision of things. He forever broods and fumes [דברי נרגן], imagining that others have everything he
lacks, and all Heaven’s favors to him seem evil. God made man upright and whole, but he
distorts his life with his perceptions.”
Especially the diyuk in a Rambam he alluded to me that he argued here on this blog in 2012, that get meusa only applies to Bais Din while any unauthorized vigilante can do anything he wants!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think that it's a case of heuristic thinking. mental shortcuts that are standing in the way of his actually looking at the evidence, since many in YU have this emotional gut reaction to certain contemporary issues, just like we Chareidim do in some areas.
ReplyDeleteEver see his blog? I think he has a lot of thoughtful stuff there.
i'd love to build a bridge to some YU rabbonim ... since it could really prove useful for this to get resolved.
BTW: he did email me that he'd be happy to meet for coffee.
Don't see them yet.
ReplyDeleteShort and sweet, please answer this:
Can Tamar rely on a diagnosis which relies on supposed facts that she - in her own handwriting - contradicts?
The mildness of the post deteriorated greatly in the comments, legitimately or not. The post might have gently persuaded him to concede; the comments--including those authored by the author of the post, may he be well--are just burying him and encouraging him to resist.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect? He is friends with Tamar's new boyfriend, and Tamar's father a"h treated his son WHEN HE LEARNED IN PHILLY for free. There's no wonder he is for Tamar. But it doesn't really explain his treif shittos generally.
ReplyDeleteDid he really say that? Totally absurd. So RYGB can be metaher es hasheretz with 70 reasons.
ReplyDeletei think you guys have too much faith in blogs. Does anybody here actually want to hear Rabbi Bechhofer? Or does everyone just want a concentrated forum to pillory him in the echo chamber?
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly - the "only person in the world"? Of the people capable of an informed opinion, many would never put their opinion on the blogosphere.
Does anybody here actually want to hear Rabbi Bechhofer?
ReplyDeleteSure. Does he want to hear anyone else - including acknowledging the undeniable facts? Opinion can only begin after the facts have been acknowledged. One cannot point at the sun and call it a chair, with the claim "oh, it's just my opinion."
I agree with G.A. The feminists have not won the war against the men, so now they try to annul marriages. In light of the corruption of rabbis today relating to Gittin, it is imperative to be stricter in those halochos not lenient like Kaminetsky, and gedalia Schwartz. Its still possible that Greenblatt was fed wrong info and trusted the kaminetskys w/o due diligence, but he doesnt have a track record of being feminized like the others. I personally know of several cases that dragged on where the men are willing to give gittin and just want a fair shake, but the evil rabbis convince the women no to give in. They then turn to ORA or to others to convince the world that these women are chained. THEREFORE IT IS THESE EVIL RABBIS AND ORA WHO USE THEIR INFLUENCE TO CONVINCE THE MASSES THAT THESE WOMEN ARE HELPLESS VICTIMS! WHAT A SCAM AND ATROCITY AGAINST THE MEN, THE TORAH AND NOT TO MENTION CHILUL HASHEM!
ReplyDeleteI think many here have to takea deep breath , and despite their good intentions take into account the fact that they are involving themselves in Motzei Shem ra and bizui Talmeday Chachamin.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
ReplyDeleteIf the goal was to have him write something, shaming and daring him into it doesn't seem like the best strategy. If it were me, and I wanted him to write a guest post, I would take down this post and send him a cordial EMAIL request.
However, given the nastiness and personal attacks he would be opening himself up to in the comments, why would he expose himself to that?
Yes, Rav Dovid Eidensohn was taking him apart on the blog. I would have to search where he sent me the links, but maybe he'll be gracious enough to send us them again. ..
ReplyDelete"........AND NOT TO MENTION CHILUL HASHEM!" - against Elchanan's wishes!
ReplyDeleteKovod talmidai Chachomim comes from the Torah that is embedded in the. When the Torah is trampled upon and mutilated, the source from where talmidai Chachomim get their kovod is lost, thus the cause and reason to honor them simultaneously diminishes, especially when it is done by them themselves.........
ReplyDeleteI believe that it should be noted that in the case of RNG and Rabbi Gedaliah Dov Schwartz, that diplomatic means were first attempted. .....please correct me if I'm wrong. ..
ReplyDeleteDepends. Can't say without more information.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure how to defend my views if in the end I have my own doubts as to the validity of the heter! How about this summation:
ReplyDelete1. The Haifa teshuva and others provide basis for the applicability of mekach ta'us. There is room to argue whether they apply to this case or not.
2. I do not believe anyone is lying or distorting anything. There is enough material for halachic uncertainty even if we assume everyone is telling the truth.
2a. There has been far too much twisting and extruding of the facts to the detriment of honest disagreement. This is unfortunate and demoralizing.
3. I disagree with several of the a priori assertions made here, in posts and more so in comments. I have noted these disagreements individually, and do not feel that it is necessary to collect them into a guest post.
4. I became involved in commenting on this issue here because I see it as directly linked to the last time my picture (the same one!) graced the masthead of this blog: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/05/r-bechhofer-using-secular-courts.html
I don't know about you, but I feel that the best way to prevent misunderstandings is by an informal and pleasant chat.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Rabbeinu Tam did!
ReplyDeleteIn maus again.? חס וחלילה
ReplyDeletewhat information do you need?
ReplyDeleteFor starters, the complete diary.
ReplyDeleteThe pages that I published were part of the court papers. You feel that there is additional material which was not made public that would indicate that she was concealing her true feelings even in the privacy of her own diary?!
ReplyDeleteEntirely possible.
ReplyDeleteBut Shulchan Aruch ruled it prohibited and rules is use invalidated a subsequent divorce.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.daat.ac.il/daat/psk/psk.asp?id=34
ReplyDeleteIf you acknowledge there is uncertainty, then you must concede that we cannot do something as severe as freeing an eishes ish on the basis that is uncertain.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the Haifa teshuva?
ReplyDeleteOh, right, the Haifa case where the guy had schizophrenia, was taking psychiatric drugs, and ended up in a vegetative state after attempting to take his own life.
ReplyDeletehttp://article.yedioth.co.il/default.aspx?articleid=8421
Any objective, rational observer will agree that this case has absolutely no bearing on the AF case.
If anyone has a link to the actual psak din, I would appreciate it.
This is not true. See the link I posted (it appears in response to "Mefaresh" below). Sorry!
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/rav-eliashivmaos-alei-get-not-required.html?
ReplyDeleteHuh?
ReplyDeleteThe diary lists his supposed vices, and says he is neither angry nor stingy nor suffering form unwarranted fears ... but you believe that it's okay to assume that really he suffers of these anyway?
.. and assuming so wouldn't contradict the C"C's fourth condition of the necessity of citing possibility of a less negative interpretation, known in the field as a differential diagnosis ...
So tell me, why are neither Halacha nor proper adherence to ethics rules not important... and why shouldn't what you just said constitute הוצאת שם רע?
I have nothing against an informal chat, and as I already mentioned, I honestly liked some of the things on your blog. However, the subject at hand is one that requires an appreciation for assimilation and integration of ALL pertinent information. I don't yet see that you feel any אחריות whatsoever to make sure that your theories aren't contradicted elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteDid you look at the link to the ethics rules I sent you? Do you think these rules for followed here?
"I do not believe anyone is lying or distorting anything. There is enough material for halachic uncertainty even if we assume everyone is telling the truth."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Bechhofer, I respect the concept that the "hamon am" (even those as learned as you) should not be forming opinion about everything even if, as is the case here, the basis for the psak of RNG seems a bit tenuous at best. However, with all due respect, you haven't reserved your judgement when it came to judging AF for not giving a Get. I do not claim to know either side of the story, however, there appears to be much more questions about what did or didn't happen, who is more right vs more wrong, in connection to this whole saga than there are doubts about the possible justification of the psak and at best neither side has completely clean hands, so why wouldn't you think it was appropriate to give AF the same benefit of the doubt? When this was discussed on Harry Maryles' blog, you either ignored many of those challenges or responded with some pithy and ambiguous responses that, respectfully, didn't make much sense. While I am all for holding one's tongue until absolutely sure that one knows all the facts and the halachah, but you need to do so consistently - otherwise it is clear it is just an excuse and raises the obvious question of what is motivating you when you raise the excuse vs when you are more willing to shoot from the hip. I submit that, based on the facts as we know them, it is far easier to come up with justification for why AF is not a Rasha and at least doesn't deserve for the public to get involved in his dispute by defaming him and trying to cause him to lose his livelihood (even if we don't support his actions) than it is to come up with a rationale for RNG's psak.
fedupwithcorruptrabbis says “I agree
ReplyDeletewith G.A. The feminists have not won the war against the men, so now they try
to annul marriages.” My hope is that
public debate and exposure to the facts will lead to changes in how rabbis rule
and in the public mood. Israel has
little of the intense resentment and grumbling of the radical feminists in
Brooklyn and other places in the USA and Canada. Israel is a place of dreams
coming true. In my case, it may well be, that I didn’t share Susan’s grumbling on
feminists issues, is what made Susan seek a get from me. See, I don’t know, even today, why Susan
sought the get I gave her 2/17/1993. Yes
Susan won the entire house and 55% of my pension, now $870 monthly. So what?
ORA went to demonstrate to have Aron fired from his job, of which is clearly YORED LECHAYOV. Wouldn't this call to ban ORA in Totto, or you would say it's a little bit pregnant?
ReplyDelete*************
..."- is that the reason that Tamar did not make any claims of severe personality disorders either to the Beis Din of Baltimore, the secular court during the hearing regarding custody and visitation or even in the privacy of her own diary
- *is because she felt that she would receive a Get*,
obtain custody and proper visitation without having to mention that Aharon suffered from severe mental health problems...."
*************
At this point and time, Tamar was debating pro and con putting everything on the scale and having all things considered, consulting with her SECHEL HAYOSHOR beinah lebein atsmah WHICH direction to head without *prejudice*. There is no way in the world why this Mental issue *if true* wouldn't be on TOP OF THE LIST! It is the most critical and severe decising factor to consider. Indeed, the whole mekach taus fiasco of 'savra, ve rofl kibla al tnay' is based on.
Is there such a thing as "KIbla al TNAY? Can you smell in this the *coaching* to TAMAR of this Am Ha'aratsish erroneous complaint? This is exactly where SHEKER EIN LO RAGLAYIM shines.
Is YORED LECHAOV inclusive?
ReplyDeleteIf you have doubts about the validity, please explain what your doubts are, rather than beating around the bush.
ReplyDeletePlease spell out - why would you think this heter might be valid? Why do you think it may not be valid?
"he does not apply this approach to Aharon Friedman but has called
ReplyDeleterepeatedly called him a rasha and makes no attempt to find circumstances
that might justify his actions. Why the double standard?" The answer is that Bechofer is no different than ORA and its likes! When they cant justify they attack the other side.I think that since Kaminetsky and people like him will be afraid to issue annullments, perhaps they should try a new tactic, The woman issues the GET to the man!
What is scary is that, psychologists and psychiatrists have so much power and influence in our communities that they can affect a psak Halachah!
ReplyDeleteYGB is posting on a seperate blog here:
ReplyDeletehttps://daistorah.wordpress.com
Perhaps Rabbi Bechhofer's most important claim - and one that I feel is totally unreasonable
ReplyDeleteI have no idea whether he's correct, but the idea is not unreasonable, and certainly not "totally unreasonable." She may have wished to avoid placing the onus of parental mental illness on her child. This would not surprise me at all. It's very much what a parent might do to protect her child.
Didn't you write elsewhere that you see this conversation with Rabbi Bechhofer as building bridges to YU rabbonim? You won't build any bridges by insisting that the conversation be recorded. This is not a deposition, and even if R' Bechhofer's views are completely unsound, he is not accused of having done anything wrong. He's right. Your insistence on recording the "friendly chat" is absurd.
ReplyDeleteWhy not both, putting your thoughts on a blog AND an informal chat! The prior is more accountable, the latter more amicable. ......
ReplyDelete..
Lol, when I saw the heading "Get not required", I nearly fainted. .....thought it was another Tamar Epstein ruse........
ReplyDeleteAnybody more recent than Rabbeinu Tam? Rav Elyashiv said no to that. ...
ReplyDeleteLike evolution?
ReplyDeleteYou have got to be kidding!!!!
ReplyDeleteShe was sooo worried about what impact the divorce is going to have on her child that 1) she gets divorced because she wanted a more social husband 2) she spends 5 years spreading the news of her attempt to receive a Get over every form of pubic media 3) she has public demonstrations that are recorded and put on the Internet. 4) When being the Aguna for ORA etc doesn't work she then goes into a more "discreet" mode and simply declares she doesn't need a Get because her husband is a total lunatic! 5) Oh I forgot - she pays 60K for goons to beat up her husband - because she is trying to do thinks discreetly so it won't impact her daughter.
She could have had a Get in the beginning without any of this Earth Shaking publicity. Aharon told her after she absconded with their daughter - that if she would move back in the neighborhood in a separate apartment at his expense for a year while they tried counseling - he would give her the Get if she still wanted to get divorced.
Of course she refused the above because she was sooo terribly concerned about the impact of the divorce on their daughter. ( In case you didn't catch on - I was being sarcastic.)
Again, kishkes, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, chatting is for bridges, recorded conversation, as this blog post, is for integrity. Both are important.
ReplyDeleteAnd btw
That's funny. An unfortunate choice of words now that things have started to go downhill. But maybe it will actually get the feminists to read the post!
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, is it possible that you are partial towards Rabbi Bechhofer? From your comments it seems quite clear that you are giving Rabbi Bechhofer a free pass on all he says, yet you will come to his defense even when it just does not add up.
ReplyDelete1) Rabbi Bechhofer's goals in his comments on this saga are not clear.
2) Rabbi Bechhofer has made comments completely contrary to the documented facts.
As such, it is completely absurd for Ploni to put himself into a position where Rabbi Bechhofer can then misquote him. Do you not believe in כבדהו וחשדהו? Even if you do not believe in כבדהו וחשדהו, can you call Ploni absurd for practicing it?
If there is something absurd here, it may be your comments on this issue calling protection absurd. It is usually enlightening, thought-provoking and enjoyable to read your comments.
Hi Rabbi Eidensohn.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to hijack this post, but I had a question to ask regarding this issue, and I wasn't sure how to send it in.
While I cannot claim to have read every post on this blog regarding the current issue, I have been following things more-or-less consistently. One topic which I am pretty sure has not been discussed is the the couple's daughter. If the kiddushin would be nullified as a mekach ta'os, wouldn't that necessarily affect the daughter's lineage as having been conceived out of wedlock? And this would additionally assign to the mother a certain degree of selfishness for having obtained her "freedom" at the expense of her own daughter's reputation. Am I the first one to have brought this up?
Yes, really.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't grace that blog with a response considering that whoever runs it seems to go out of his or her way to make gratuitous insults to RDE and his brother - unless of course you want to respond in kind and enjoy being part of that kind of dialogue. I am very surprised that RYGB would link to that.
ReplyDeleteAccountable to whom???
ReplyDelete:-)
ReplyDeleteReally? Against hundreds of years of poskim? I doubt it...
ReplyDeleteYou yourself cited the Haifa teshuva. I am not sure that the disorders in this case reach the threshold that the disorder in the Haifa case reached.
ReplyDeleteWhatever ORA does is on the basis of the psak of their poskim. You have to ask them, not me.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, we discussed my "double standard" back in '12. As one of the commenters notes, I was yotzei my chiyuv mecho'oh back then. Ayain sham.
ReplyDeleteReb YGB, HUH???
ReplyDelete@RYGB! HUH???????????? I can't hear you.
ReplyDeleteThe commenter going by the pen name of Moe Ginsberg noted what he calls my "get on demand" opinion. To withhold a get is in itself an act of rish'us - especially for an extended period of time.
ReplyDeleteI haven't taken a position. I don't think excerpts from a diary are sufficient basis to form ANY opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I remain on the fence.
ReplyDeletePerhaps yes, perhaps not. One would have to ask RSK and RNG why they felt a threshold of credibility had been attained. In the absence of a response, we don't definitvely know either way.
ReplyDeletewe have been through this many times on this blog. Simply search the archives with the word "alei"
ReplyDeletethe normal halacha for the last 500 years has been to avoid using Rabbeinu Taam's heter. That was because of the concern for get me'usa. In recent years a number of poskim have stated that there is greater liklihood of women committing adultery if they are stuck in marriages - not like the old days. Thus they have pushed for a return to the use of Rabbeinu Tam's pressure. That however is generally only when beis din views that objectively there is a clear reason why the wife is repulsed by the husband. But in situations where she simply says she doesn't like him they will not allow the pressure of Rabbeinu Taam. Also apparently in cases where it is clear that the woman will not commit adultery - the motivation to use Rabbeinu Tam is also reduced.
Bottom line - for most poskim for hundreds of years - there is no automatic usage of Rabbeinu Taam when the wife claims ma'us alei and surely in the case where she claims she simply doesn't like him or that she can do better.
Irrevelant (and yes, I looked at the teshuva inside). The teshuva does not consider HdRT.
ReplyDeletePS I wrote a bit more in answer to our esteemed host's latest enquiry below, in my response to the commenter going under the pen name of Emes, who asked essentially the same question.
ReplyDeleteA child born out of wedlock does not have any negative status in Judaism. (Unless there are some unusual special factors such as the father being the mother's sister's husband or the mother being married to another man.) That being said, a child born from intercourse conducted during when the mother was not "clean" (i.e. went to the mikva), such a child does have a negative status but a) it isn't nearly as negative as a bastardous child and b) it equally is applicable whether the child was born in wedlock or out of wedlock. Theoretically a mother giving birth out of wedlock could be clean (i.e. having gone to the mikva), though that is unusual. In this case, though, even had she been declared retroactively unmarried, we can assume she went to the mikva at the time and the child is 100%.
ReplyDeletesince when is this about RYGB? Who cares what he thinks or says?
ReplyDeleteThose who believe that something terrible occurred at the hands of SK and RNG with the able assistance of SF will not change their minds regardless of what Rabbi Bechofer says or thinks. He's one man with an opinion and nothing more.
The fact that he's a talmid chochom doesn't change anything because much bigger Talmidei Chachomim have already come out clearly that what occurred is ziyuf hadin. Why the focus on RYGB?
Please explain how this case is even remotely comparable to the Haifa case.
ReplyDeleteYour cryptic and pithy comments, totally devoid of intelligent content, do nothing to advance the discussion.
I will repeat my questions from before:
If you have doubts about the validity, please explain what your doubts are, rather than beating around the bush.
Please spell out - why would you think this heter might be valid? Why do you think it may not be valid?
He is the only person I know who even thinks that the "heter" might be valid. Thought it would be informative to try to understand why he ignores the large amount of evidence against it.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what is considered automatic and what is not. All I know is that the claim that HdRT invalidates a get is false, and that it may be applied without qualm. It stands to reason that it should not be employed in a manner that is an avlah - although I cannot, at present, conceive of such a situation - so a reliable posek should be consulted before deploying it. Organizations such as ORA have poskim with which they confer - we should assume that when they get actively involved with a case it is upon the approval of their poskim.
ReplyDeleteDue to the moderation time lag, I've just seen your response below
ReplyDelete"I am not sure that the disorders in this case reach the threshold that the disorder in the Haifa case reached."
"Not sure"???!!!
Can you provide a coherent explanation as to why they might be comparable.
That is not the way it has been understood for hundreds of years. Or are you claiming that there never was a widespread hesitation for hundreds of years of applying Rabbeinu Taam?
ReplyDeleteAh, gevaldig. ...
ReplyDeleteStop expecting a good answer from a two-bit shyster like YGB.
ReplyDeleteJust that their poskim need the approval of the halakha........
ReplyDeleteThere is rational "get on demand" and "irrational get on demand" and presumably a host of grey area where reasonable people can debate whether it is morally correct to give a get on demand. As I've noted in the debate on Harry Maryles' blog - but you avoided answering the question then - (1) I can respect the view that there are extra-halachic moral considerations at play that make it a moral imperative to give a get in certain circumstances even where halacha may not mandate it and beis din may not be able to enforce it (though I know Moe will disagree with me on this - at least as to the parameters in which this should be applied). (2) What I absolutely cannot respect is the position that in every case, irrespective of the facts, there should be get on demand, that is what I would call "irrational get on demand" and what I believe is a morally corrupt position to take. By way of example (which is the example Harry cited), if someone is refusing to give/receive a get because his/her ex has denied him/her access to the children by making false allegation of child abuse, then it would be morally corrupt and an act of extreme rishus to slander or shame that party for his/her act, not matter how much time has passed, and if anything we should be instigating a public campaign against the other party. There are a host of other possible scenarios that may not be as terrible where people can debate the level of justification or lack thereof. I am not suggesting that this is what happened in the AF/TE case - in fact I am not aware of any such allegations, but there are a lot of questions about what did or didn't happen some of which definitely could give rise to a debate about each party's degree of culpability. I will take it a step further in saying that in my humble opinion, someone who jumps the gun in seeking to embarrass or harm one side without verifying the requisite facts is by definition a rasha even if it ultimately turns out that he attacked the correct party. Your ambiguous references to "lo plug" are completely illogical and makes as much sense as someone arguing that "lo plug" that since there have been some women who have falsely accused their husbands of child abuse that beis din (or the court, if you prefer) should automatically always grant full custody of the children to the father.
ReplyDeleteIt is so lacking in substance. I would call it primitive. Whoever he or she is, only serves to prove our point.
ReplyDeleteIf you are referring to this post, then I don't think you have explained it at all.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/05/r-bechhofer-using-secular-courts.html
If you addressed it somewhere else perhaps you can provide a link.
To yourself. ...for yourself. ....to all readers of this blog.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the Get the last procedure of this Transaction, divrei Krisus shekorsin? Stop calling it WITHOLDING. There is an ORDER, and it is PROTOCOL. AF has witheld NOTHING. You can scream till your'e red in the face, it won't change one iota.
ReplyDeleteAre you claiming that for hundreds of years there was widespread hesitation to deploy HdRT?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that you don't understand the concept of a continuum.
ReplyDeleteHUMBUG! NOT EVEN CLOSE. if this is your line of defense for THIS so called HETER, try PLAN B. You are bluntly comparing Apples to Oranges
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's worth making him into a בר פלוגתא. The issue speaks for itself. RYGB's views are simply not at the level that they warrant all this attention esp when he himself admits that ultimately "he doesn't know."
ReplyDeleteAh, so if you can clarify thesech questions for me and the rest of our readers:
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get that it is rishus to withhold a get?
If you say that it is common sense, is it a rishus when the news reported that that there were more women who refuse gittin than men?
Was it a rishus for Rabbeinu Gershom to take away a man's right to divorce his wife against her will?
And if not, whY is it not rishus to divorce a man against his will?
Thank You very much and anticipating a definitive response
And I thought YOU are trying to defend this pathetic HETER. Isn't ORA part and parcel of what transpired in this attempted GET since ADAM. In any case, what is YOUR opinion lehalacha about YORED LECHAYOV ORA TACTICS against AF?
ReplyDeleteBTW, I won't let you get away with it. I have asked you a couple of other questions as well, so I will post it again for your convenience. Here goes:
Since you couldn't answer this, read on to the *NEXT* veyovo baal haSHor veYaamid al Shoiro.
.... deleted
*********************************************************************
Aren't the Rabbis that persued the Get unsuccessfully, the same that were in hot persuit of this so called HETER?
here is *NEXT* ====> as to say from the horses mouth
..."- is that the reason that Tamar did not make any claims of severe personality disorders either to the Beis Din of Baltimore, the secular court during the hearing regarding custody and visitation or even in the privacy of her own diary
- *is because she felt that she would receive a Get*,
obtain custody and proper visitation without having to mention that Aharon suffered from severe mental health problems...."
*************
1)
At this point and time, Tamar was debating pro and con putting everything on the scale and having all things considered, consulting with her SECHEL HAYOSHOR beinah lebein atsmah WHICH direction to head without *prejudice*. There is no way in the world why this Mental issue *if true* wouldn't be on TOP OF THE LIST! It is the most critical and severe decising factor to consider. Indeed, the whole mekach taus fiasco of 'savra, ve rofl kibla al tnay' is based on.
2)
Is there such a thing as "KIbla al TNAY? Can you smell in this the *coaching* to TAMAR of this Am Ha'aratsish erroneous complaint? This is exactly where SHEKER EIN LO RAGLAYIM shines.
You have two questions, let's see if you can try DEFENDING THEM.
If NOT, GET DICH UNTER!!! BAAS HAYAANO TECHNIQUE WON'T DO
Do you believe that OCPD/PPD is on the same continuum as schizophrenia?
ReplyDeleteThe Poskei haDOR do think that her Diary is of highly sufficient basis. Are you in any way challenging them??? BTW, what are your credentials? Heter Hoiro'o, Yodin Yodin?
ReplyDeleteyes - see the following quote from Rav Tzvi Gartner's RJJ Journal A Forced Get
ReplyDelete)הרחקה רר"ת(
Although the ruling of Rabbenu Tam initially well-accepted, it has not had an untroubled history. Many leading Rabbis have opposed using it and in practice it is not an option which is utilized
You are claiming that there is no problem utilizing it - but that is not the way major poskim write about it or the fact that it was commonly not used. There were exception - but Rav Gartner clearly refutes your cavalier attitude towards its usuage. This issue was discussed in great detail several years ago on this blog and the posts are still available.
Perhaps it was on Harry Maryles' blog.
ReplyDelete1. Yes, common sense.
ReplyDelete2. Perhaps.
3. C"V.
4. Because the ramifications for a woman are far greater. Moreover, corrupt BD like Rabbi Gestetner's will issue him a HMR. She has no recourse.
Since civility is not your strong point, I will not be entering into discussion with you. You might try another pseudonym and start over in a more civilized tone.
ReplyDeleteMental disorders are mental disorders. The question is what one can live with and what one cannot live with.
ReplyDeleteIt's nice to feel understood once in a while:)
ReplyDeleteRabbi Gartner is behind the times. See:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.daat.ac.il/daat/psk/psk.asp?id=770
and
http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=3588
and
http://www.dintora.org/article/311
and more.
I do not know how one can ascertain the custom b'kol tefutzos Yisroel over hundreds of years. I saw a source that asserted that HdRT was employed frequently in small kehillos where it was feasible.
L'ma'aseh, whatever the history, it is now used frequently b'makom iggun.
See also
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2015/12/a-very-recent-and-important-psak.html
Hey Chevra,
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting to see a poll chart to the upper right of the blog post. Truthfully, I hate to say it, I think they are all guilty. IMHO, I think it would be much more helpful if we vote on who is the most responsible to clean up this mess which would give us far better direction where to focus the appropriate attention for a proper resolution of this saga. Anybody agree?
Incredible statement!!!!
ReplyDeleteI was very suprised he linked to this also.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I pointed it out.
Although I meant Yosef bechor Shor, arei bar chakim hu lei, upon your request, I take it humbly back. And now to the Mataamim. Nafshi bishelosi, why is the Diary worthless? It is the most critical issues of her life and soul in sorting things out which way to turn, bli shum kchal ushrak as in 1).
ReplyDeleteWhat is your opinion on 2)
and one more, is YORED LECHAYOV permissible and in line with HDrt?
Perhaps we can here illustrate why we need mekoros from Torah sources even for something that we call " common sense":
ReplyDeleteTake #4 where you say that the ramifications for a woman is much worse than for a man: what of the man is a Kohen? Better yet, what if the woman has secular court on her side? A father's rights activist once told me that fighting in matrimonial court is like fighting on a tilted football field. ..,Nu , speaking of ramifications?
Finally we are getting somewhere.
ReplyDeleteI take it that you strongly disagree with RYGB's statements here.
If you could please elaborate on what you disagree with and why, I think it would be very helpful to the readers.
As a response, I kindly direct all blog readers to my reply below regarding "common sense " to not withhold a get and my answer to "#4".
ReplyDeleteThanks
And one more thing after just responding: are to measure on a scale his suffering against hers?
ReplyDeleteIf there is no chiyuv to give a get, how can there possibly be any heter to pressure someone with Hdrt? I'd understand the hava amina if there was a chiyuv.
ReplyDeleteOn what authority do you make your assertion in Point 4, that it's never okay for a husband to elect to decline his wife's request for a divorce but that it is sometimes okay for a wife to decline her husband's wish to divorce her? On your own feelings or on a sourced halachic work?
ReplyDeleteWhere do you see it being used frequently now, other than by ORA?
ReplyDeleteWould a "Rasha" based on common sense be possul l'eidus? The term Rasha in my mind means the Halachik ramifications of being a Rasha. If you wouldn't apply those ramifications, then maybe you should use "achzar" instead.
ReplyDeleteI am not kidding. Not to justify Tamar Epstein's behavior, but it's quite possible that she made a risk-reward calculation regarding her child, and came out in favor of the divorce. Or maybe she didn't, and made a selfish decision regarding the divorce. Either way, notwithstanding what other foolish choices she might have made, she still might have wanted to avoid placing the onus of mental illness on her child. This is something I think many parents would try to do if possible. B/c she acted foolishly in some areas doesn't mean she did the same in this one. It does not seem an outlandish idea to me.
ReplyDeleteSome of the Teshuvos which you cited(yosher koach for posting) mention that HdRT is not considered Cfiyah because the husband can move somewhere else, presumably where no one know him. In today's environment of internet publicity, do you think that this distinction is still valid? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteYou're conflating different comments at different times and to different people. my original concern was similar to what "emes" wrote", that RGYB "either ignored many of those challenges or responded with some pithy
ReplyDeleteand ambiguous responses that, respectfully, didn't make much sense".
The first order of business for me was to see if he was uninformed, being disingenuous. There's no sense in building bridges with the latter. I reasoned that if he's the former he'd agree to be on the record, and then of course it wouldn't be necessary.
The second comment was to RDE, who says (I suspect correctly) that I shouldn't waste my time.
At the end, RGYB notified me that he has no connection to the YU Rabbonim, anyway.
"In the absence of a response, we don't definitively know either way"
ReplyDeleteThat's a חידוש עצום your saying there. never heard of that in בין אדם לחבירו. That's why I gave you the analogy to my taking your stuff without due process being okay .. as long as I don't respond to you.
" excerpts from a diary"
ReplyDeleteAre you dreaming? EXCERPTS? The WHOLE list is posted on this blog IN HER HANDWRITING.
More and more ... it looks like it's נגיעות talking.
נגיעות is a universal issue, like we see that the ב"ח thought that the טור had נגיעות and therefore misunderstood his father's שיטות about יוצרות ... but pleeze ppl are pointing it out to you again and again ...
I don't know R' Bechhofer from a hole in the wall. I have no special feelings for him.
ReplyDeleteRecordings would make sense to me if this were a formal proceeding, not just a friendly chat, or if he were a principal in the matter. Since he is neither a principal in the affair, but only a random person with an opinion, and since the meeting is meant to be friendly chat over coffee, I do indeed agree that insisting on recording it, and כבדהו וחשדהו are absurd.
I think this is especially the case b/c Ploni billed this as "building bridges" to YU rabbis. You don't build bridges by turning an informal meeting into a deposition, especially when the person you are meeting is an innocent party who happens to hold a different opinion than your own.
That's my view, take it or leave it.
Did you? Where? I couldn't find anything. I'd like to check it out!
ReplyDeleteI have a very thick skin where anonymous internet insults are concerned, and I've dished more than my share, so not to worry -- מחול לך מחול לך מחול לך.
Nat says: “If the kiddushin
ReplyDeletewould be nullified as a mekach ta'os, wouldn't that necessarily affect the
daughter's lineage as having been conceived out of wedlock? And this would
additionally assign to the mother a certain degree of selfishness for having
obtained her "freedom" at the expense of her own daughter's
reputation.”
I quote Isaiah 29:34 “And the confused shall acquire
insight And grumblers accept instruction.”
I did a search on grumblers. The sin of the spies who rejected going to
Israel was a sin of grumbling, for no good reason. I quote here a few times Proverbs 26:20-22: “For
lack of wood a fire goes out, And without a querulous man contention is stilled.
Charcoal for embers and wood for a fire And a contentious man for kindling
strife. The words of a querulous man are bruising; They penetrate one’s inmost
parts.”
Surely, Tamar is the grumbler, complaining to the
world for no good reason how bad her husband is:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon
Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring
Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have
protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a
website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official
congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah
International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media
has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after "all the
bullets have been fired."”
The radical feminists and supporters are grumblers for
no good reason and also confused. Isaiah
says that the grumblers need instruction, that life with Aaron is good that
life in Israel is good etc. Isaiah says
that the confused need insight, that no rabbi should marry a woman who is
already married and the husband is alive, well, and free and never gave her a
get.
"mental disorders are mental disorders" implies that they are qualitatively the same but differ quantitatively regarding the degree of how difficult it is to live with.
ReplyDeleteThere are major differences between psychosis, mood disorders, personality disorders etc etc. I really don't see a need to summarize all of Psychology. The statement simply shows an incredible ignorance or denial of reality.
This is becoming the tast of Sisyphus - just when I think we are make progress Rabbi Bechhofer comes up a statement like this which indicates he wasn't paying attention or has an agenda other than open dialogue.
I don't know R' Bechhofer from a hole in the wall. I have no special feelings for him.
ReplyDeleteDid you make a comment recently where you gave Rabbi Bechhofer a pass since you feel he has a good reputation etc, and you ask the commenter to produce his? Your posts are set to private, so I was unable to find it.
or if he were a principal in the matter. Since he is not a principal in the affair, but only a random person with an opinion,
That's not clear. His intentions in denying the truth here, as well as twisting the story have not been clarified. His relationship with certain principal people in this saga is clear. What is not clear is what that means to this conversation with him - is he just a dude with an opinion, or is he a dude with an agenda? If it's the latter, what does this mean in the big picture? Since these questions have yet to be clarified, calling כבדהו וחשדהו absurd is misplaced.
You should also please notice the lies that have been floated around, which caused Rav Miller to write yet another letter. There is a need to make sure that those with an agenda and beef in this case do not misrepresent and misquote. Again, we are speaking of a person with a relationship with primary people.
I would agree that that they are all guilty, but that's another poll. The ultimate responsibility is, "The buck stops here", and RNG admitted that he gave the *HETER*. He gave a save facing retreat of his Psak, but he needs to be more specific as long as the couple is living in sin. I still don't know who the Beis Din in session sitting in were if any, consisting of three Dayonim. I am only aware of two as Networking. Anyone cares to contribute who the third was? And were they in on a session of Tlose kechode havina? As far as cleaning up this mess, they all need industrial 'Borsikei' shovels to shovel it up.
ReplyDeleteEven the Haifa so called HETER has the Gedoilim up in arms, and is in no comparison at all here. Even the kalim agree that this Krispedin matzutz min haetzba type of chalaas, was there from adam, and has not grown in any dimensions since, so there you have it. NO continuum, no Krispedin, no nothing. Before Tamar was ever coached in seeking for this so called HETER, she never complained of this Continuum disease, lo minei velo miktsosei. This yohr Eidus she went shopping for has no validity nor any credibility. Even the Baal Hamachshir of this simcha already admitted to it. Why are you beating a dead horse for. Everyone knows this is a RED HERRING. Time to throw in the towel.
ReplyDeleteMr. GE, I feel your pain. ORA YMSV A, heim vesholchehem SHARY"A vechol asher lahem. Those firing the Bullets should all be arrested and done Justice to, same as the haughty BIG GUY talking Gevoha Gevoha ProdFather. Look at him now! Meigra rama, lebira Amiksa. Kein Yovdu, to which I might add, "Beibud Reshaim Rina". B"H the tide has taken a turn against the feminists perfidy, and rightfully so. After the dust will settle and the rabiners be defrocked and put back where they belong, there will be a Mamzeirim List together with their Paramours Veyivku al Mishpechoisom and then we see whether Firing Bullets pays off. At the end of the day, who says there is NO Justice? As they say Yovoi Yoineh!!!
ReplyDeleteIt's a waste of time, vechaval al hazman. This guy is totally irrational, off the wall.
ReplyDeleteORA consists mostly of Hooligans from the Island of Lesbos. They are very angry, and this is their way to lash out.
ReplyDeletetime to step down and stand on solid ground
ReplyDeleteYou may be correct in principle, but in practice, that will get nowhere. RNG gave the heter based on lies told to him by Shalom Kamenetzky. Unless Shalom retracts his lies, nothing will change. From a practical standpoint, Shalom is the one who has his entire future to lose. Shalom is the one that must be pressured. As I wrote below, nothing in this case will move forward until someone big can take the bold and courageous step of moving beyond the particular psak to the person behind it, and saying publicly that Shalom is not a bar samcha etc.
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit odd. In many other areas he is totally okay. Go to his blog and listen to him teaching Pachad Yitzchok, for example.
ReplyDeleteHeuristic thinking means נגיעות. The R"Y says that תאוה is like שוחד .. which is יעוור עיני חכמים ... he can't think past his assumption that it's a מצוה רבה to help women get out marriages because they're surely BAD marriages.
He just doesn't seem to be able to understand the possible that he got it ALL mixed up: the same bias that he can't seem to get rid of is probably what got the therapists to:
Firstly - interpret AF wrongly and then ...
secondly - greatly worsened Tamar's (and Tamar's family's) feelings of doubt about the marriage ..
thirdly - causing her distress ...
fourthly - made those close to her like the K family feel the need to "save" her ...
Ok, I take that as koshe leratsos. I leave my questions as ysoimim.
ReplyDeleteShalom is at the doorstep of "veal yevakshu Torah mipihu", and he clearly is the Mother of all this mess, ending up as the biggest loser. He lost the battle and lost the war, integrity and all. I hold him responsible for ferdraying a kopf for Tamar, she nebach will never find another AF, and her father never deserved such after all his GOOD DEEDS and maasim toivim on behalf of the Yeshiva. My heart goes out to such a great tragedy afflicting us all. We need grois Rachmim to end this without any further bloodshed.
ReplyDeleteTAMAR, if you hear me, can you kindly step up and lemaan haShem ulmaan the kavod of your Father O"H declare yourself FREE AT LAST. We the people, Kidsho Brich hu, and the TORAH HAKDOSHA are all in great pain and the key is in your hands. PRETTY PLEASE!!!
Your Brothers and Your Sisters
from all over the world
she still might have wanted to avoid placing the onus of mental illness on her child.
ReplyDeleteHow would this affect her child if she told the Beis Din that he has mental illnesses - as is standard practice with many toanim (even when there is clearly no mental illnesses involved)? The fact that the Baltimore Beis Din, as well as Rav Aaron Feldman consider this to be irrefutable evidence that it cannot be taken seriously, should say something. She is willing to take the bullhorn to the streets and publicly vilify the father as an evil person, but she is unwilling to to call him an OCD paranoid guy?
I think it should be put into the actual post. This comparing a suicidal schizophrenic to a guy with OCD should clarify where he is coming from.
ReplyDeleteDid you make a comment recently where you gave Rabbi Bechhofer a pass
ReplyDeletesince you feel he has a good reputation etc, and you ask the commenter
to produce his?
I don't recall any such comment, so I went looking. The closest I could find is the one that appears here:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-rav-shmuel-feurst.html
Here's the comment. It's a response to Michelob:
Not sure who you are
Here is Rabbi Bechofer's web page:
http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/
As I said, foolish at best, rasha at worst.
You may disagree with his opinion, but that does not make him a fool or a rasha.
It doesn't say what you claim, and I stand by it in any case.
Not that I feel any compulsion to prove my bona fides, but it may interest you to see that I disagree with R' Bechhofer in other comments in that thread.
And in this thread too:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/outrage-over-tamar-epsteins-heter.html
With regard to the rest of your argument, I agree that R' Bechhofer clearly has an agenda with re. get. That doesn't make him a principal in this matter, and it doesn't turn a chat into a deposition. Were I to see proof that he is somehow involved, I'd change my tune.
Anyhow, that's gonna be my last word on this subject, which to me is just a sideshow from the main event.
I think we've reached the point where I would be responding either to taunts or insults or to deliberate twisting and misunderstanding of what I am saying. Hence, I see no reason to comment further at this time. Feel free to email or call me, my contact information is posted on my blog.
ReplyDeleteTo clarify, no one ever claimed AF has OCD. They are claiming he has OCPD - Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. That is not the same as OCD.
ReplyDeleteOCPD is a "disorder" that really just characterizes a personality type - Type A perfectionist, high achiever, medakdek on small details etc. The kind of thing that other people might find annoying but certainly within the realm of normal. Grounds for mekach taus? You've got to be kidding.
Either way, I agree that it's absurd to compare suicidal schizophrenia to a OCPD, which is essentially just a Type A strong personality.
"Mental Disorders are mental disorders"
ReplyDeleteThis is where I think you're going wrong. Just because something is in DSM, that's not some kind of halacha lemoshe misinai to justify mekach taus.
You can see clearly that the Haifa BD didn't believe in what you are writing, as they devoted a whole section of the teshuva to explain why schizophrenia is a mum gadol, with reasons that include potential danger to his family, non-functioning nature, and inability to ascertain reality.
None of these reasons are applicable to OCPD/PPD, certainly not to AF.
OCPD is NOT the same as OCD. OCPD is a personality type, a "disorder" that really just characterizes a personality type - Type A perfectionist, high achiever, medakdek on small details etc. The kind of thing that other people might find annoying but certainly within the realm of normal. Mekach taus? Total joke.
"The question is what one can live with and what one cannot live with"
My understanding was that the question is whether the vast majority of women would find it impossible to live with. Not what "one" could or could not live with. As Rav Shlomo Miller wrote in his letter, there are many many couples in functional marriages with the aforementioned personality types.
That an immature little girl can't fulfill her silly Princess fantasy is nowhere in the ballpark to justify mekach taus.
No one ever said he has OCD. They're claimin he has OCPD, which is a personality "disorder", that essentially just means a type A personality.
ReplyDeleteShockingly, it's even worse than you think...
Evil is not a matter of genetics. Mental illness often is.
ReplyDeletehow do you know?
ReplyDeleteIt's my opinion. One that I would venture is shared by many others.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, that's gonna be my last word on this subject, which to me is just a sideshow from the main event.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. Thank you for responding and clarifying.
Rabbi Bechhofer, perhaps it would be worthwhile postponing your judgemental ism, do you have any experience with Rav Gestetner? I do.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in search of a Bais Din in the NYC area (and suburbs), I came across a Bais Din that
1) did not take money for their services. Now, they take s' char baTorah, but for what he really would make when he was selling shtreimlach, unlike botei din where each dayan', 'toen' takes s' char batoloh for what a lawyer would make when they have no training for the bar,
2) he would not have corrupt toanim, which is run of the mill in most botei din because of the need for 'business', as 'rabbi' Landesman once told me,
3) he would not make you sign a 'blank check', entrusting ALL of your future matters to his Bais Din, especially if he wouldn't take achrayus. In a different vein (although not readily understood) he has transparency,
4) which brings me to another feature of his Bais Din - he writes a print out maihaichon dantonni - from wher he arrived at the conclusion of his p'sak.
One more thing, Rabbi Bechhofer, it would be worthwhile to consider the above mentioned points, especially that he is besmirched
I was not even getting into the fact that this "report" was clearly cooked with a certain purpose in mind, and the fact that it is completely untrustworthy.
ReplyDeleteFor sure the report is extremely suspect..
ReplyDeleteBut even leshitasam that it's accurate, it is no way a justification for mekach taus.
Was musing over this 'area' of Disqus lately.
ReplyDeleteQuestion on point #4, When the Shulchan Aruch and/or commentaries allow a man to bypass heter me'ah rabbonim if his wife goes to court or moredes or refuses to adjudicate in Bais Din, is that rishus? Then what is wrong with Rav Gestetner's heter me'ah rabbonim?
I have been told that a letter from Rabbi Aharon Feldman was posted today in Lakewood, in which he regrets having brought this matter before the public and requests that all public discussion of the issue cease. I do not if this is an accurate rumor, or perhaps the letter said something else. I hope and expect our esteemed host will procure and post a copy post haste.
ReplyDeleteI was told that it was not signed by Rav Feldman and is probably a forgery.
ReplyDeleteWhy only probably? If it wasn't signed by Rav Aharon wouldn't it definitely be a forgery?
ReplyDeleteIt nevertheless behoves you as the chronicler of record to post it to the blog.
ReplyDeletethank you for bringing it to my attention
ReplyDeleteSure. But I doubt it is a forgery. The person who brought it to my attention told me that in Lakewood it is regarded as authentic. I think we would need RAF himself to assert it to be a forgery to accept such an assumption. As it seems to have been public for a while, with no denial forthcoming, I think the circumstances indicate its authenticity.
ReplyDeletewould you like me to draft an "authentic" letter of denial?
ReplyDeleteYour contact meant to say that Lakewood there are some naive people who wished it were authentic. It was clear to the rest of us that it is a forgery.
The Kaminetskys lie that Rav Miller retracted were also made public for a while without an explicit denial.
There is no doubt, however, that Rav Feldman wished the rabbis would take care of this matter so that there would be no need for the laymen to get involved. I agree with that sentiment 100%. But events have shown that the rabbis can not keep their own house clean without being pressured by the masses.
We can stop speculating and makeing assumptions if you contact Rabbi Feldman and have him confirm or deny it.
ReplyDeleteand therefore what?
ReplyDelete"would you like me to draft an "authentic" letter of denial?"
ReplyDeleteYes please. It would be an interesting experiment to have it posted in Lakewood and see if is accepted as authentic.
As you know, I reject the position you take "the Kaminetsky lie." I don't think anyone is lying and it has yet to be proved that anyone is.
These statements, along with the far worse ones by various commenters, do nothing more than diminish Kavod HaTorah. You can fight your fight without casting aspersions on your antagonists. Do so.
As to your last comment, it is deeply disturbing. L'havdil, Korach was of the same opinion. Chazor becha.
I don't think anyone is lying
ReplyDeleteEspecially you.
I did not see RSK assert he was a lunatic.
You choose to close your eyes an be oblivious of the facts. Intriguing.
Chazor bach!
YGB you reap what you sow.
ReplyDeleteThe modus operandi of ORA has to mobilize maximal public pressure on the husband, encouraging the public to use social media to shame the husband.
Now, when things are not going their way - it's "stay out of it, let the rabbis handle it."
Total hypocrisy.
When did acceptance in the Lakewood street become the arbiter of what is or is not authentic? I agree, though, that there is no need to use words like "lie." And not just when referring to Torah leaders. As for a push from the masses being needed as the impetus, I can't think of any action they've taken -- good or bad -- that wasn't a reaction to someone else's having taken the initiative to push them. I'd be interested in hearing examples of when they've been proactive rather than reactive in the past 20 years.
ReplyDeleteAh, meant to ask you: one of the many questions you have not answered is why what we are doing is misaber al riv lo lo, but by you pursuing Aharon Friedman or our cause is not misaber al riv lo lo?
ReplyDeleteThanks
It looks very fishy to me, and not at all R' Feldman's style. But even if it is actually written by R' Feldman, it is not a retraction of his original letter, nor does it in any way negate the very valid points he made there. Which means that even if the new letter is from his pen, which I doubt, it changes nothing, but simply shows that he has been placed under tremendous pressure, which I have no doubt is the case.
ReplyDeleteMy dear Honesty,
ReplyDeleteBe reasonable (and honest). If AF would issue a get do you think anyone would have passeled it als lunacy?
Nevertheless if you don't take my comments seriously, then please don't comment on them.
While not a retraction (why should he retract?). It is an implicit - no, make that explicit - mecho'oh against character assassinations. Unfortunately, there has been far too much of that going on, to the point that this no longer resembles Halachic discourse but scurrilousness of the worst order.
ReplyDeleteDealing with child abuse was not done at the initiative of rabbis but of the masses.
ReplyDeleteThe iniitiative to deal with the perversions of the Tamar epstein case did not originate with the rabbis
a lie is something said to deliberately deceive. In this case we are dealing with lies - not mistakes
I haven't sown anything. I'm not a bar plugta in this machlokes. Which is why I declined the invitation to write a guest post.
ReplyDeleteThat said, the analogy is utterly flawed. The poskim of ORA encouraged their activities. I don't think anyone is encouraging the ongoing blogging-besmirching. Our esteemed host himself makes it quite clear that this crusade is his own initiative.