Update 12/31/12: Rav Simcha Bunim Lazerson kuntres resolves all issues
ויכוח הלכתי סוער או קרע פוליטי חריף? נראה שבציבור הליטאי, בצורה זו או אחרת הכל בסופו של דבר קשור זה בזה.
בעיתון 'יתד נאמן' מופיע הבוקר (רביעי) מכתב חריף ממרן שר התורה הגאון רבי חיים קניבסקי שליט"א נגד קובץ תשובות הלכתי של גאב"ד 'חניכי הישיבות' הרב מרדכי גרוס.
update November 27 2012
דברי הרב דרזי
update November 27 2012
דברי הרב דרזי
The following is the article that is being criticized- downloading & printer options turned off
Electricity Watermeters & Air Conditioners
Rav Lazerson's kuntres explaining Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's views
What is this saying?
ReplyDeleteThe letter, as it was published in Yated, was incomprehensible, and contained an obvious misquote of a passuk as well. I doubt that Reb Chaim really wrote it.
ReplyDelete... Just like the letter against mishpacha mag.
DeleteR gross is famous for his hecksher for kosher wigs.
It is money issue, r' Gross beis din is becoming very popular and it directly compete with r' Karlitz beis din.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt that politics are behind pushing Rav Chaim to write this (If he wrote it), but what was Rav Chaim referring to when he wrote of Rav Gross's position regarding electricity and Shabbos being "Heaven help us!"
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what in particular was so beyond Rav Chaim's pale that it does not belong -- according to him -- in a Jewish house?
does anyone know if r' Elyashiv ZT'L psak against Crocs shoes also holds for Tom's Shoes ?
ReplyDeleteIt seems time for some serious talmidei chachamim to sort out whether the arguments against Rav Gross's people are valid or not.
ReplyDeleteAlternatively, it seems time for some serious talmidei chachamim to stay away and not get involved.
DeletePolitics in the guise of halacha.
ReplyDeleteThis is a regular occurrence and especially when a new leader or leaders wish to consolidate their grip on power.
Thus, in R' Shach's days, the war was against MO, DL, Hesder Yeshivot aecular education.
R' Elyashiv's battles were wigs, elevators, conversions.
Today is interesting, because it is internal warfare. No longer are they attacking the Modernists (perhaps there is no mileage left in that) but it is a "civil" war in the Lithuanian camp.
Eddie I assume you studied thoroughly the material I posted before you concluded that there is no halachic issue - but it is politics. Pehaps you can explain to us why there is no serious halachic consideration here?
DeleteMy argument is that the motivation is not purely halachic, but is mixed with politics. Bluke below makes a good point.
DeleteThere are always opposing opinions, so should we always throw out all the books we disagree with? Pretty soon, there would not be many books left.
Of course there are serious halachic issues, but since when do we throw out/ban seforim just because we disagree with their conclusions. There has always been machlokes in halacha, but we don't find that just because someone disagrees we throw out the sefer. If you don't agree with the halachic conclusions then publish a teshuva why the other person is wrong. R' Gross is a talmid chacham who is certainly entitled to an opinion on halachic topics.
ReplyDeletegood point
DeleteCompare the two articles and you'll have your answer.
DeleteOne is based on source analysis and logic, while the other is a polemic.
Unless one is prepared to refute the logic, one must resort to the "received wisdom" approach, which can only mean "I ban you" because you are arguing against the received wisdom of my authorities.
I was about to put the exact same comment. Judaism is NOT a totalitarian dictature!
DeleteThe machmirim leave us with no solutions.
ReplyDeleteThe apt complex where I live is installing a digital water meter and the water utility here is doing the same in private houses.
In lakewood, half the avreichim living in private basements trigger electric pumps when expelling their waste water, whether it's from the toilet or the drain.
We should not use water, l'kavod keddushas SHabbos?
You are pointing out a very serious problem. Everything is going electronic. Soon it will be very hard to find anything that doesn't have some kind of electronic sensor on it. If you go to a hotel you can see some of them, for example:
DeleteElectronic keys
Motion sensors which shut off the lights and air conditioning if there is no movement
Faucets that go on and off based on motion sensors
Toilets with sensors
Automatic doors
Security cameras
…
Household appliances are changing as well. New refrigerators all have sensors that are put into action when you open the door etc. (even if you tape down the light switch). Modern burglar alarms have sensors on the door and register when the door opens even if the alarm is off. There are surveillance cameras everywhere.
The point is that electronics and sensors are becoming ubiquitous, they are going to be everywhere. It will soon reach a point that we will not be able to do anything without causing some reaction in some sensor.
If we just continue saying that electricity/electronics is assur we will either not be able to do anything on Shabbos or have to become Amish. I for one don’t see how a frum person can stay in a hotel in the US on Shabbos based on this.
I suppose the counter argument would be that , yes it is difficult, but even at the cost of being Heimish/Amish, it is the only choice rather than meddling with halacha and permitting what is forbidden. In any case, electricity is not fire.
DeleteThe problem goes beyond Hilchos Shabbos.
DeleteWhat we're hearing from the machmirim is that this or that is "a problem" or an "issur gamur," which in and itself would not be so bad, would it be that they were to also offer solutions and workarounds.
But they don't, nor do they -- apparently -- consider that they need do so.
A few years ago an uncle of mine, who is in the development business, mentioned this same point. In his projects (not chareidi) he noticed that the engineers/Architects were designing buildings that frum people would not be able to live in. His examples were automatic doors in the lobby, sensors in the stairwell that turn on lights as you move. In other words, only lighting the immediate area and not all 30 floors at a time. As you pass the landing after a preset amount of time (30 secs) the light shuts off, and even inside the apartments too! When a tenant would use one room more often the remaining rooms would power down until needed. The system even changed the heat settings so that they would be more efficient. Water pressure, hot water and all sorts of things we take for granted, all working behind the scenes based on sensors in real-time. Say someone went on vacation the system could save resources by powering down lights, heat, hot water and water pressure and deliver those same services to those that are there.
ReplyDeleteHe thought about writing an article in a jewish mag to both publicize this new trend and to facilitate/find solutions to the issue. Perhaps by using the gramma rules etc... but never did. Perhaps I should ask him to at least write what he knows so that we could at least know the many issues that may come up.
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ReplyDeleteWas rav shmuel Auerbach influenced by this dispute as one of the reasons for him going against rav kanievsky?
ReplyDelete