Tuesday, August 22, 2023

WHAT DO WOMEN WANT sexually? sources in Torah literature

I asserted in a previous post that the widely believed statement that women have different sexual needs and desires than men in particular that while for men sex is a physical issue for women it is primarily emotional - has no basis in fact or the Torah literature, that this statement comes from secular and christian marriage manuals and psychology texts. There is no empiric evidence for it. and the research indicates that both men and women view it primarily as a physical issues and that women have more lust than me. I reviewed RAMBAM IGROS KOSH - ascibed to Rambam as well as the letters of CHAZON ISH STEIPLER and RAV WOLBE, RAV YAAKOV EMDEN'S SIDDUR AND  this idea is not mentioned see the Shulchan   Aruch below - no mention. INFACT THE ONLY DIRECT MENTION OF WOMENS FEELINGS I HAVE FOUND IS THE FOLLOWING
Maharal[1](Bava Metzia 59a): Rav said that a person should always be carefully not to oppress his wife because since she is sensitive and readily cries it is easy to make her feel oppressed. Thus we see that it is only his wife that he needs to be exceedingly careful not to hurt her feelings since she is ruled by him and therefore is much more likely to cry than other people who are not so easily oppressed. In other words because his wife is under his control she is more likely to be hurt by his words and cry when he wrongs her. In contrast a non‑Jewish slave is by nature not so affected by oppression and even a female Jewish slave does not readily cry because she has accepted the servitude to her master. Furthermore a female slave was not created for the purpose of being under his domain. It is only the wife who was created to be under the rule of her husband and as it says (Bereishis 3:16), And he shall rule over you. Therefore when she is oppressed it has a very strong impact on her. Furthermore in truth a wife does not accept being ruled by her husband because she views herself as his equal. In contrast a slave fully accepts that his master rules over him and therefore is not impacted as much as a wife who views herself as important and therefore is devastated when she is not treated with care.

[1]  מהר"ל (בבא מציעא נט.): אמר רב לעולם יהא אדם זהיר באונאת אשתו שמתוך שדמעתה מצויה אונאתה קרובה: לעולם יהא אדם זהיר באונאת אשתו כו' פירש שיהיה נזהר באשתו דווקא כי אשתו מפני שהבעל מושל עליה דמעתה מצויה ביותר, כי אונאת אדם אחר אינו מקבל כל כך התפעלות אבל אשה בעבור שהיא תחת ממשלת האדם ואם עושה לה אונאת דברים דמעתה מצויה, אבל עבד עברי אינו מקבל התפעלות בטבע ואפילו היא אמה עבריה אין דמעתה מצויה מחמת כי היא מקבלת עליה שעבוד אדון שלה, וגם בעצם הבריאה לא נבראת שתהיה תחת ממשלתו, רק האשה נבראת שהיא תחת ממשלת בעלה כדכתיב בקרא (בראשית ג:טז) והוא ימשל בך, ואם יש לה אונאה היא מתפעלת ביותר לכך דמעתה מצויה. וגם אין האשה מקבלת עליה ממשלת בעלה, מפני שהיא זוגתו, כמו שמקבל עליו העבד אדנות האדון ואינו מתפעל כ"כ כמו האשה שרואה עצמה חשובה ומתפעלת מן אונאת בעלה:

SO EITHER our rabbis didn't know this idea,neglected to mention it or that secular knowledge is superior in these issues - or THAT IT IS NOT PART OF THE JEWISH VIEW OF SEXUALITY

שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות אישות סימן כה סעיף א
ראוי לאדם להרגיל עצמו א] בקדושה יתירה ב] ובמחשבה טהורה ג] ובדעת נכונה, כדי להנצל מלהכשל בדבר ערוה. ד] ויזהר מהייחוד שהוא הגורם הגדול. וכן ינהוג להתרחק ה] מהשחוק ומהשכרות (א) ו] ומדברי עגבים (פירוש דברי שחוק וחשק). ולא ישב בלא אשה, ז] שמנהג זה גורם לטהרה גדולה. ח] יתירה מכל זאת אמרו: יפנה עצמו ומחשבתו לד"ת וירחיב דעתו בחכמה, שאין מחשבת עריות מתגברת אלא בלב פנוי מהחכמה.

שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות אישות סימן כה סעיף ב
ולא יקל ראשו עם אשתו ולא ינבל פיו בדברי הבאי, אפילו בינו לבינה. הרי הכתוב אומר: מגיד לאדם מה שחו (עמוס ד, יג) אמרו חכמים ז"ל: אפילו שיחה קלה שבין אדם לאשתו עתיד ליתן עליה את הדין. ואל יספר עמה ט] בשעת תשמיש י] ולא קודם לכן, כדי שלא יתן דעתו באשה אחרת, ואם ספר עמה ושמש מיד, עליו נאמר: מגיד לאדם מה שחו (עמוס ד, יג) יא] אבל בענייני תשמיש יכול לספר עמה, כדי להרבות תאותו, יב] או אם היה לו כעס עמה וצריך לרצותה שתתפייס, יכול לספר עמה כדי לרצותה. הגה: יג] ויכול לעשות עם אשתו מה שירצה, יד] בועל בכל עת שירצה א טו] ומנשק בכל אבר א'} שירצה, טז] ובא עליה בין כדרכה {א} בין שלא כדרכה, או דרך אברים יז] ובלבד שלא יוציא זרע לבטלה (טור). ויש מקילין ואומרים שמותר שלא כדרכה ב (ב) אפילו אם הוציא זרע, אם עושה ב'} באקראי ג ואינו רגיל בכך (גם זה טור בשם ר"י). ואף על פי שמותר בכל אלה, יח] כל המקדש עצמו במותר לו קדוש יאמרו לו (דברי הרב). ולא ירבה בתשמיש להיות מצוי אצלה תמיד, שדבר זה פגום הוא מאד ומעשה בורות הוא, אלא כל הממעט בתשמיש ה"ז משובח, יט] ובלבד שלא יבטל עונה כ] אלא מדעת אשתו. כא] ואף כשישמש בשעת העונה לא יכוין להנאתו, כב] אלא כאדם הפורע חובו שהוא חייב ג'} בעונתה, ולקיים מצות בוראו בפריה ורביה, כג] ושיהיו לו בנים עוסקים בתורה ומקיימי מצות בישראל. ולא יבעול אלא מרצונה, ואם אינה מרוצה יפייסנה עד שתתרצה. כד] ויהיה צנוע מאד בשעת תשמיש. ד ולא ישמש (ג) <א> בפני שום מין ד'} אדם, כה] אפילו קטן, כו] אא"כ הוא תינוק שאינו יודע לדבר.

In fact the only requirement is that the wife be a willing participant and the gemora says the husband can lie to his wife and promise her gifts that he does not intend giving her to get her acceptance

Talmud - Mas. Eiruvin 100b

Rami b. Hama citing R. Assi further ruled: A man is forbidden to compel his wife to the [marital] obligation, since it is said in Scripture: And he that hasteth with his feet24 sinneth.25

    R. Joshua b. Levi similarly stated: Whosoever compels his wife to the [marital] obligation will have unworthy children. Said R. Ika b. Hinena: What is the Scriptural proof? ‘Also without consent26 the soul27 is hot good.’25 So it was also taught: Also without consent26 the soul is not good,25 refers to a man who compels his wife to the [marital] obligation: And he that hasteth with his feet sinneth,25 refers to the man who has intercourse twice in succession. But, surely, this cannot be right! For did not Raba state, ‘He who desires all his children to be males should cohabit twice in succession’? — This is no difficulty, since the latter deals with the woman's] consent; whereas the former, without her consent.

    R. Samuel b. Nahmani citing R. Johanan28 stated: A woman who solicits her husband to the [marital] obligation will have children the like of whom did not exist even in the generation of Moses. For of the generation of Moses it is written: Get you from each one of your tribes, wise men and understanding, and full of knowledge,29 and then it follows: So I took the heads of your tribes, wise men and full of knowledge.30 while men of ‘understanding’ he could not find, whereas in the case of Leah it is written in Scripture, ‘And Leah went out to meet him, and said: Thou must come unto me, for I have surely hired thee,’31 and subsequently it is written, ‘And of the children of Issachar,32 men that had understanding33 of the times, to know what Israel ought to do, the heads of them were two hundred, and all their brethren were at their commandment.’34

    But can that be right?35 seeing that R. Isaac b. Abdimi stated: Eve was cursed with ten curses, since it is written: Unto the woman He said, and I will greatly multiply,36 which refers to the two drops of blood, one being that of menstruation and the other that of virginity, ‘thy pain’36 refers to the pain of bringing up children, ‘and thy travail’36 refers to the pain of conceptions ‘in pain thou shalt bring forth children’36 is to be understood in its literal meaning, ‘and thy desire shall be to thy husband’36 teaches that a woman yearns for her husband when he is about to set out on a journey, ‘and he shall rule over thee’36 teaches that while the wife solicits with her heart the husband does so with his mouth, this being a fine trait of character among women?37 — What was meant is38 that she ingratiates herself with him.39 But are not these40 only seven? When R. Dimi came41 he explained: She is wrapped up like a mourner,42 banished from the company of all men43 and confined within a prison.44 What is meant by ‘banished from the company of all men’? If it be suggested: That she is forbidden to meet a man in privacy, is not the man also but could be retorted.] forbidden to meet a woman in privacy? — The meaning rather is that she is forbidden to marry two men. In a Baraitha it was taught: She grows long hair like Lilith,45 sits when making water like a beast, and serves as a bolster for her husband. And the other?46 — These, he holds, are rather complimentary to her, R. Hiyya having made the following statement: What is meant by the Scriptural text: Who teacheth us by47 the beasts of the earth and maketh us wise by48 the fowls of the heaven?49 ‘Who teacheth us by the beasts’ refers to the mule which kneels when it makes water, ‘and maketh us wise by the fowls of the heaven’ refers to the cock which first coaxes and then mates.
Netziv[1](Eiruvin 100b): Etiquette can be learned from a rooster – We learn the normal psychology that coaxing women is only with clothing as is stated in Pesachim (109a): “How are the women of Babylonia made happy? With colored clothing.” We also learn that it is permitted to deceive her and to promise orally but in his heart he knows he will not keep it. Similar to this is the words of our Sages that it is permitted to be falsely flatter ones wife.

[1]  נצי"ב (מרומי שדה - עירובין ק:): דרך ארץ מן תרנגול – הנה מלמדנו דרך ארץ דפיוס נשים אינה אלא בבגדים וכדאי' בפסחים (קט.) נשים במה משמחן בבבל – בבגדי צבעונין. ועוד מלמדין שמותר לשנות לה ולהבטיח בפיו ולבו בל עמו. מעין זה אמרי חז"ל דמותר לחניף לאשתו. (עי' ספר ארחות צדיקים.)

R. Johanan observed: If the Torah had not been given we could have learnt modesty from the cat, honesty50 from the ant, chastity51 from the dove, and good manners from the cock who first coaxes and then mates. And how52 does he coax his mate? — Rab Judah citing Rab replied. He tells her this: ‘I will buy you a cloak that win reach to your feet’.53 After the event he tells her,54 ‘May the cat55 tear off my56 crest if I have57 any money and do not buy you one’.

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