Update: There are allegations that the Moetzes - instead of condemning the Kaminetskys and R Greenblatt for this scandal - are working on publishing a letter that Rav Shmuel was not involved in the heter - a claim Rav Shmuel has made in several letters to rabbonim. The problem is that his son R Shalom directly contradicts this claim of non involvement in his letter to Rav Greenblatt[which appears below]. The only statement that everyone will agree is that Rav Shmuel did not give the heter - that was done by Rav Greenblatt together with Rav Feurst and others. The bottom line is that the heter would never had been given without Rav Shmuel's involvement and that furthermore it continues to exist entirely because he refuses to condemn it.
===============================================================
As everyone knows, the storm resulting from the phony heter to Tamar Epstein has been going on for a while. R Shalom Kaminetsky's campaign to manipulate Rav Greenblatt to declare the marriage invalid worked only for a while. However a wide range of major rabbis - including Rav Chaim Kanievsky - have condemned this heter and declared Tamar as still being married to her first husband and thus committing adultery with her 2nd husband. It has clearly been publicly declared by these rabbis that persuading a psychiatrist to write an invalid report - is a major danger to the Orthodox community and the institution of marriage.
The question is why the issue has not been settled with a retraction of the heter by Rabbi Greenblatt and a rejection of the heter by Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and his son? Why is the issue dragging on? Why isn't an ultimatum being given to the above - to either comply or be publicly denounced?
The answer unfortunately is not a pretty one. Because if an ultimatum was delivered to the above rabbis - there is a good possibility that they would not comply. After all they have "Daas Torah" or as Rav Greenblatt says "I followed the Shulchan Aruch" and it doesn't matter to him whether the facts are true or not. He views the heter as being independent of how it was obtained and that the only thing that matters is that he issued a psak that Tamar can remarry. Similarly Rav Kaminetsky sees no reason to condemn the heter because it was issued by a "bar samcha" (Rav Greenblatt) and so it doesn't matter if the basis is a pack of lies. In short neither cares whether the heter was obtained through falsely proclaiming that Aharon Friedman suffers from extreme incurable mental illness that disqualifies him from ever being able to marry.
However the real answer why there is no ultimatum is because we have a serious problem here of codependency. What is ultimately preventing the resolution - and the reason that the Moetzes Gedolei Torah will never get involved - is the issue of the priority of our rabbinic leaders. While Torah and halacha are truly important, there is a greater concern for these rabbis. They view that the system itself is in danger if major gedolim are declared to be in open rebellion against the Torah. These rabbis will never do anything that is perceived as an attack on gedolim. Thy believe that faith in gedolim (and Daas Torah) is more important to preserve than faith in G-d and Torah! Or rather that faith in G-d and Torah must be through faith in the gedolim.
Unfortunately, by publicly declaring that the heter is false and that a major breach in Torah has occurred - they can't conceal from the public that the agents of this breach are in fact gedolim. The longer they hesitate the greater is the loss of faith in gedolim and the greater the cynicism is amongst the masses - including the yeshivos and seminaries.
In short, since they have gone public with the existence of a major breach - they can not avoid following that to its logical conclusion. But they lack nerve and don't want to be perceived as the ones who destroyed the public status of revered gedolim - Rav Greenblatt and Rav Kaminetsky.
Consequently there is great pressure to try and save the reputation of these gedolim by putting pressure on Aharon Friedman. It is widely viewed by these rabbis that almost all goals will be accomplished if he is sacrificed by forcing him to give a get and receive nothing in return.
Let me make it absolutely clear. Aharon Friedman will never back down. He will not sacrifice his reputation or his relationship with his daughter in order to allow Rav Kaminetsky and Rav Greenblatt to save face and not be held accountable for their sins. Aharon Friedman is not going to be the scapegoat that allows the rabbis to avoid the horrible task of destroying the reputation and legacy of Rav Kaminetsky and Rav Greenblatt - if they won't back down and condemn the phony heter.
Very well said.
ReplyDeleteThis whole fiasco really exposes the bankruptcy of the entire system.
As I've been saying, someone with big stature and some backbone needs to move beyond the psak and issue a condemnation of the people involved in this farce, specifically Shalom K. Putting aside all the fighting in E"Y, but one thing they have over there that is sorely lacking in America is some backbone. I'm losing more respect for the Moetzes with every passing day.
R' Eidensohn - I think it would be very helpful if we could get the names of those who were approached and declined to give a heter.
On a related note - those who declined to give a heter, did they decline to pasken, or did they pasken assur? Was it a situation of chacham sheassar ayn chaveiro rashay lehatir?
What type of pressure are they attempting to put on AF? Haven't they already used all their bullets, and missed?
ReplyDeleteIt's not Rav Nota that they are afraid to start with. It's Rav Shmuel. Until this story the only people who even heard of Rav Nota were those dealing with gittin. He wasn't a major player on the national level, and would never be listed in the top ten American chareidi gedolim. To start up with Rav Shmuel is an entirely different deal. He's a bad enemy to have.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how these people can sleep at night knowing that they allowed this to happen? They must actually hold that the hetter is valid on some level, otherwise they'd presumably do something to stop it.
he is still banned from neighborhood shuls
ReplyDeletethere are threats to use his refusal in reducing visitation rights
he has not gotten his reputation restored since all the announcements simply say that the reports are not justification for mekach ta'os - leavening open the mistaken impression that Tamar was justified in leaving the marriage. The rabbis involved have not got out of their way to defend him and his actions.
he is getting advice to compromise on various issues when it clearly is not in his interest but is in saving face for the gedolim.
A unbelievably true and accurate description of what is now going on. But let's save Torah and not be concerned with individuals we thought were still gedolim.
ReplyDeletethose who have not protested - such as Rav Herschel Schacter and Rav Mordechai Willig - i.e., the Modern Orthodox World is not because they don't disapprove of the heter. They view that public condemnation is not helpful - though they clearly have offered no alternative.
ReplyDeleteThe Moetzes feels strongly that they can not criticize one of their fellows - if it were Open Orthodox that was doing this they would have no trouble putting a full page ad in the New York Times.
Not aware of anyone who has declined to condemn the heter - who actually thinks it was a valid thing to do. It seems it is simply a question of social pressure and lack of nerve
"However a wide range of major rabbis - including Rav Chaim Kaminetsky"
ReplyDeleteShould read: Rav Chaim *Kanyevsky*
Gittin 17:b
ReplyDelete“Said Abaye to R. Joseph: [We have learnt that] three
kinds of Get are invalid,[ One of them being an undated Get; infra 86a.] but if
a woman marries again on the strength of them [and bears a child], the child is
legitimate. This being so, what good have the Rabbis done with their regulation
[that the Get should be dated]? They at least raise an initial bar against her
marrying again.[ Because the scribes will be unwilling to write and the
witnesses to sign a Get without a date.] Suppose the husband cut off the date
and gave it to her? He replied: We do not take precautions against a fraud [of
this kind]. Suppose it is dated only by the septennate,[ The seven-year period
between one Sabbatical year and the next.] by the year, by the month, by the
week? He replied: It is valid. What good then have the Rabbis done with their
regulation? It is of value [where a question arises] about the septennate
before or the septennate after.[ E.g., if the alleged unchastity took place in
the septennate before, or if the husband continued to draw the increment in the
septennate after.] For if you say this is of no value, [I might retort,] even
when the day is specified, do we know whether the morning or the evening is
meant? What [it does is] to distinguish it from the day before and the day
after. So here, [by specifying the septennate] we are enabled to distinguish it
from the septennate before and the septennate after [should a question arise
about them].”
We see that the overwhelming concern for the rabbis “They
at least raise an initial bar against her marrying again.” In Tamar’s case, if she gets pregnant and delivers
a healthy beautiful baby. Who is the
father? Some rabbis may quote
A passerby who gets embroiled in someone else’s quarrel Is
like one who seizes a dog by its ears. Like a madman scattering deadly
firebrands, arrows, Is one who cheats his fellow and says, “I was only joking” (Proverbs
26:17-19).
Tamar could say she was only joking when…;
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon
Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring
Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have
protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a
website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official
congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah
International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media
has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after "all the
bullets have been fired."”
Tamar could say to anyone who asks her who is the
father of her beautiful new baby: mind you own business and quote: A
passerby who gets embroiled in someone else’s quarrel Is like one who seizes a
dog by its ears.
The people are not fools. Unless something is done quickly., the Moetzes is on a path of self destruction. Is that good or bad? For the Hamon Amm??? For Agudah - probably not good. If Agudah self destructs in the process- is that bad for the Hamon Amm ????
ReplyDeleteI have not seen it, but rumor has been going around that the Baltimore Beis Din has sent a letter to the Vaad of Greater Washington stating that they have erred and that Aharon Friedman had followed all of the Beis Dins instructions and Tamar was the one who did not cooperate with the Beis Din. And that no psak to give a get was given by them, nor any other valid Beis Din. They beg his forgiveness for their part in causing him harm and implore others to do so as well. IF this is true, this brings to light, just a 'drop in the bucket' of the atrocities committed against Friedman. WOE to all those who harmed Aharon and his family, on the day of judgement. The list is almost endless but WOE is to
ReplyDeleteTamar, Cheryl Epstein, R Kamenetsky, R Kamenetsky, ORA & J Stern, all members of the Washington Vaad, Breitowitz, R Schachter, M Epstein and gang, R Belsky, Ralbag, M Wolmark, R Greenblatt, EVERY single person who attended demonstrations and all other smear campaigns against Friedman, his family and his employer. I apologize for all those whose name has been left off.
WOE IS TO THEM ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT!!
One who embarrasses someone in public...............
WOE IS TO THEM ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT!!
>>> However a wide range of major rabbis - including Rav Chaim Kaminetsky
ReplyDeleteDid you mean Rav Chaim Kanievsky ?
This still makes zero sense. Even if he gives a get, how would TE remain with her current "husband"? The get would demonstrate that she was an eishes ish at the time of the "kiddushin".
ReplyDeleteThe last paragraph doesn't follow from the others. Doesn't AF want to end this in some way, even if he doesn't get 100% of his demands? "He will never back down"? But how about compromise? Does he really want to sacrifice both himself and his daughter because of whatever dysfunctions exist in the rabbinic world?
ReplyDeleteIn any negotiation, no one can be expected to have all their demands met. Both sides should walk away feeling they got 'less than' they would have wanted. But at least it ends.
As far as the concept of 'reputation' goes, I respectfully disagree. No one has that much control over another's reputation. At the end of the day, our reputations are our own, and it is our own actions that make or break our reputations.
Correction: R' Chaim Kanievsky, not R' Chaim Kaminetzky.
ReplyDeleteAharon is not demanding 100% and he never has. Please read the post again. I said he is being pressured to give in and receive NOTHING! How can you interpret that as meaning he won't compromise?!
ReplyDeleteSome claim that the Rema E.H. 17:58 would apply
ReplyDeleteשו"ע אבן העזר - סימן יז
(נח) אם לא נשאת לשני, אלא נתקדשה לבד, ובא בעלה, אינה צריכה גט מהשני ומותרת לחזור לראשון. וכן מותרת לשני, אם מת הראשון או גירשה: הגה - אשה שנתקדשה, וטעתה וסברא שלא נתקדשה, ונשאת לאחר, תצא מזה ומזה וכל הדרכים הנ"ל בה. אבל אנוסה להנשא, או שהורו לה בית דין בטעות ונשאת על פיהם, הוי כאנוסה, ומותרת לבעלה הראשון (תשובת הרשב"א אלף קפ"ט הובאה בבית יוסף):
I was only reading פשוט פשט into the final paragraph of this post. The rabbinical misconduct is only a sidebar to AF's main focus: his only child.
ReplyDeleteI believe, therefore, that AF needs to strongly consider an exit strategy that will put this to rest. The longer this continues, the more damage the daughter suffers. Given that fact, at least one of the parents should grow up enough to put the child first, and get this insane dance out of the news.
Don't see how giving in and in effect agreeing that it has been his fault all along will benefit either his child or his relationship with her.
ReplyDeleteI gather you don't have much experience with divorce or negotiations
So you gather wrong...on both counts.But that isn't even the issue.
ReplyDeleteIf he's waiting for his ex to admit fault and exonerate him of everything, then he will wait forever. At some point, any normal parent will put the kid first.
IF this is true. ...and EVEN IF IT IS NOT, Woe on the day of judgment. ....
ReplyDeleteRabbi E.: Aharon believes that Tamar is still married to him. Tamar, presumably, thinks otherwise. In Aharon's eyes his wife is commiting a capital offense every day. Does this halachaclly obligate Aharon to give a get beacuse of "Lifnei Iver"?
ReplyDeleteyou keep repeating the same mistake. He is willing to compromise but he is not willing to roll over and play dead.
ReplyDeleteYou keep insisting that he is lacking because he is not acting like a normal parent. You are simply indicating that if a woman refuses to compromise she will eventually get what she wants - because after all the husband needs to show he is the normal parent!
You also haven't explained why acting like a doormat will help his daughter or his relationship with his daughter. Or you are trying to say that if Aharon gives in and take the fall that will convince the daughter that her mother is normal and thus she will have one parent (her mother ) who is normal.
Basically you are saying that truth doesn't matter but there has to be the appearance of normalcy and if a parent really loves their child they will make up lies or tolerate slander to give the child a sense that the offending parent is the normal one and as a result destroy a chance of having a healthy relationship with their child.
Sounds sick - I don't accept it
no
ReplyDeleteI don't think that is a correct analogy. Tamar believes that she is not doing an averiah. Her Rabbinic advisors have explained to her that she does not need a Get. If Aharon knows differently, he should save a fellow Jew from a serious averiah.
ReplyDeleteBoiker veyoida hashem.
ReplyDeleteKoirach was able to convince his moetses of 250 Roshei sanhedro'os but failed miserably. The Torah is not for sale, neither was it when they were chonef "Aval Achinu ato". They were putting up a fight neged H' uMshicho, sunk into a sinkhole, disappeared, and never heard from them again. Netsach Yisroel lo yeshaker, the Torah Hakdosha has spoken, Asher Yechto Nossi, says Rashi hakodosh, Ashrei haDor..., but with such so called manhigim she'einom mehugonim andrelmisya bo leoilom, apparently the DOR has not been zoiche to such. Oy loi leDor shekach olso lo beyomov. Seems that Kvod Shamayim is not as important as Kvod habriyods and C.V. it is expendable. Veal koze ne'emar Mi bikesh zos miyedchem Remos chatseroy. Velo yihye Kekorach vecha'adoso was not meant for them, they are above it all. They have been put on notice from all the Biggest Poskim hayoshvim al hamodin From BD hagodol shebeYerushalayim to anywhere from all over the world. They will declare Hibodlu veHeromu mitoch ho'eido hazois and then we see Mi LaH' elay. The whole world stands behind AF and he is in good standing with BD and according to SA, in Baltimore and with many many more. The door is open for T to move on where she left off. If T cares enough, she can declare I am free from Adam al yedei Get Piturin kidimechiyavti mideorayso, and save face lekol man deboie leho, and we can move on to the clincher.
Vayomer Mordechay lehoshiv el *Ester*, ki im hachresh tachrishi boes hazos revach vehatsolo yaamod layhudim mimokom acher veat uveis ovicho tovedu...and only to add... ka'asher ovadeti ovodoti.
Those that are metsaer R' AF not to let him daven in Shul or otherwise because they are under pressure from the oidcho mistollelim, I can only say vaH' yevakesh et haNirdaf, and the mispallelim should leave in protest, to be considered as a Kidush Hashem. Where does it say anywhere that the Korban Nossi had a tunnel or back door under cover to the Kohen lifnei haMizbeach or having some yipui koach for vesomach yodo al rosh haPor. No, not all, it was Lifnei H' and in front of kahal ve'eido where he beatsmo uchvodo had to repent in front of Klall Yisroel, and only then - venislach lo. And NO again, Aron will not be a sacrificial lamb for all those that chose to keep quiet whilst Kevala es haKodesh R'L', while being nitfas beovan haDor. What needs to be done - and - needs to be done NOW, is Tovoi imoi uTe-*Ka*-neach t*S*oias Bi'-*T*-oi, ki hi em kol chatos. Time is not on their side.
How do you know that Tamar believes she is not doing an aveira? She was told repeatedly before she remarried that the heter was worthless.
ReplyDeleteIf she has been told she doesn't need a get that why are her supporters still demanding that Aharon give her one?
Again - please provide a source that a person has to give up his demands in the face of threats of spiritual suicide?
What if someone told another Jew that if they didn't allow a leg to be amputated he would commit adultery?
I don't think that is a correct analogy. In this case, the person (Tamar) does not think she is doing anything wrong. Her Rabbinic advisors have told her that she does not need a Get. Aharon knows differently and can save her from being an Eishes Ish. Why would that not be under the category of Lifnei Ivair?
ReplyDeleteThe scandals have been going on for too long. Get Meusse, mamzerim factories, beatings of men by reshoim, psokim of asher lo hoyo velo nivro, Corruption of the highest ranks, all for chabar -Shalmoinim-Shochad, and bribes, causing gross Chilul haShem just because they can. And when that went on without potse peh umtsaftsef, we now are up to heteirim of Kohen leGrusho and much more and much worse. It is high time for a house cleanup without any compromise. As far as this Sha'ARURYO is concerned AF is not the issue.
ReplyDeleteEin onu achroim liremoim. T knows good and well of her concoted story, and fooling no one, especially the Ribono shel Olam. She is not an Iver, she first hand knowledge with 20/20.
ReplyDeleteAron cannot give in and the Gedolim will not let him kedei lehotsi miliban shel tsedokim that You can pull such fast ones.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a clue how you got from the word 'compromise' to what you have written in response.
ReplyDeleteIf you cannot see that there is a middle ground between 100% and 'doormat', 'rolling over and playing dead', and 'taking the fall'....I don't know what else to say. You asked me if I know what negotiation means?!
And if anyone thinks that this saga's continuance is in the daughter's best interest, they are positively delusional. Doesn't he have the daughter every other Shabbos? Wouldn't it be in her best interest to socialize with other kids in one of the neighborhood shuls, like the Cookie Minyan at YISE? Is he so intent on keeping this going and remaining a pariah? For what? To prove his ex wrong? To prove the rabbis' incompetence?
This is what his daughter needs at this stage of her life? How long does a kid get her childhood....and then it's over? Are you kidding me?
Now loshon horah against the entire moetzes gedolei hatorah---is no-one getting worried about this already?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Schacter is no better than Rabbi Kaminetsky maybe even worse. It is possible that the later is so arogant that he possibly still believes that he is right and the rest of the world is wrong but the former has realized how wrong he is and still refuses to take ownership for his role in this fiasco.
ReplyDelete1) RNG was mesader Kidushin and consumated nesuin, 2) AF was here all along, 3) and she knew good and well that she lied through her teeth helping BD to lie as well!
ReplyDelete"AF is not the issue."
ReplyDeleteWell, I would think and hope that AF is the issue to AF and to his daughter.
If DT, yourself and whoever else wants desire to clean up the world, kol hakavod lachem. Have fun doing so. I am thinking about this poor little girl who is in the middle of an ugly mess that is not her fault and not her making.
I know you say you mean he has to compromise - but the fact is that Tamar has never compromised and is not willing to do so now. Consequently in practical terms you are simply saying he has to give up.
ReplyDeleteAnd I repeat but giving in is admission that he was wrong all along - it is very unhealthy for his relationship with his daughter especially as she grows up and learns what terrible things her father's misplaced stubborness caused.
Bottom line -- I disagree with your understanding of what is going on and I disagree with your solution or that it is in Aharon's best interests. Repeating this is not going to make it better or more correct.
you forgot mr and mrs goldfien
ReplyDeleteI never met the woman, so I have no idea what went through her head before she remarried.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if we could somehow establish that she truly believes that she does not need a Get (based on her Rabninc advisors faulty psak), would it then obligate Aharon to save her from an averiah?
AF has no obligation to throw in the towel. The true Giants of Torah are putting all their efforts
ReplyDeleteof which is only
beneficial to Aharon and his daughter. It is Tamar that needs the Get, and she could have got it long time back
, had she only taken the consideration of her daughter. Besides, have you ever entertained thethought of what's good for mother goose....
You are making the case better than I could. You are in effect saying that TE was unbending, is unbending, and will continue to remain unbending. As you report it, she is being utterly unreasonable.
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, AF is not the first parent who finds themselves across the table from someone like that. In fact, I would believe it happens more often than we know. However, he is one of the very, very few whose life continues to play out in a public, disgraceful, and ugly way. This macabre play is destructive to their child - just by its existence.
If, as you say, he is the only reasonable one here, then keeping this going is the absolute worst thing he, as the normal parent, should be doing for his daughter. If he has semi-normal visitation, what else can he want that justifies this public spectacle?
Moreover, I suspect children will sooner ask as they grow up, "why couldn't you solve this?" rather than, "why didn't you play to win?".
no-
ReplyDeleteone does not have to cripple himself or harm his own interests to save another from their own stupidity.
there is no such requirement
Not every situation is given to a reasonable solution. I don't see that simply giving the Get now is going to improve the situation
ReplyDeleteThe goal is the absolute discreditation of RNG and especially RSK. The most direct approach would have all Rabbanim who signed letters of protest to issue new letters essentially removing the nomenclature of ‘Rabbonus” from Greenblatt & K. Other methods could include:
ReplyDelete1) Stepping up the pressure on Agudah’s Moetzes to expel K via demonstrations, boycott, contacting financial supporters.
2) Exerting pressure on K’s Yeshiva, via his supporters, and stressing to the parents of the bochurim that their association with such a Yeshiva will damage their children’s reputation. Imagine the krum, twisted hashkafas these students confront.
3) Kal v’chomer to Greenblatt's Yeshiva in Memphis.
I call on American Askunim to insure the survival of Torah based Gitten.
Lifnei iver includes to give one atzas achisofel, an eitso she'eino hogenes lo. Mi hu ze ve'eizehu that gave her aniver eitso, Huh?
ReplyDeleteAnd you think that she can go on AS IS forever living happily ever after. She will not find a hole where to hide. Besides, who says Adam is willing to take all this?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't this only allow her to go back to the first בעל, but she'd still be אסור to the second?
ReplyDeleteHis strength is only till he has people supportiing him with money. Once they stop giving and the buchrim will leave, he can close the lights and close shop. We are much closer to it than you realize, it's just one step away. You are talking about the biggest gedolim uposkim and are getting tired of his cat and mouse game. If they don't rembrace and buckle up, they will end up in a crash landing, and it ain't gonna be pretty.
ReplyDeleteWoe to all the motzees hem ra that is going on here!
ReplyDeleteהרבנים בברוקלין יושבים ומשתאים, ואומרים, מילא אנחנו יצאנו ידי חובת מחאה, יצאנו בריש גלי נגד המתירים, וגם גדול פוסקי החסידים הגר"י ראטה פסל כל גו"ק מעשה ידי המתיר, ובאמת התבדל מהם כמו שעשה החת"ס בימיו, אבל אתם אנשי אגודה, למה אתם שותקים, ראש ישיבת לייקוואד למה לא שמענו קולך, ראש ישיבת מח"ב איפה אתה, האם אין פירצה זו יותר גרוע מפירצת אופן ארטאדוקסי???
ReplyDeletethere is a dispute in the poskim whether it is only to the first husband or also to the second
ReplyDeleteHow do we pasken?
ReplyDeletethere is a dispute in the poskim whether it is only to the first husband or also to the second
Hmm. ....maybe if SHE puts herself in a position that causes HER to sin (ex. adultery) , would SHE be over lifnai eever? ;-!
ReplyDeleteApparently, The Gedoilei haDor don't think so. Maybe you try to convince them, and please let me know when you succeed. BTW, your eitzos sound like the Fox to the fish al sfat hayam.
ReplyDeleterealistically this case is not that of the Rashba which is the basis of the Rema because she was clearly told that the heter would not be accepted. However there seem to be people who think is is a heter.
ReplyDeleteBottom line - a high level beis din which clearly understands all the facts needs to decide.
If she picks the beis din, she can effectively pick which way they'll rule.
ReplyDeleteThe poskim who say the second say that she has a choice and can pick which of the two husband and wants to stay with?
ReplyDeleteI don't even know what you mean. The 'Gedolei Hador' want him to keep this going? They want this Chillul Hashem to keep on going? Is that what you're saying?
ReplyDeleteOr is it they are against the heter that was developed for her? Because the two items are polar opposites, and are definitely not exclusive of each other.
I don't believe I ever recommended that. I recommend developing terms that will be acceptable to both sides -- even if imperfect -- so that this can be put to bed.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't even understand why you and others automatically make the assumption that that is the equivalent of 'throwing in the towel'. As I have said before, whoever is able to end this sordid saga and remove it from the front pages will be doing the biggest chessed to this poor little girl. Instead of people seeing it as someone 'losing', I would hope they could perceive it as the child WINNING.
Your comments and criticism sure seemed to indicate that.
ReplyDelete"I believe, therefore, that AF needs to strongly consider an exit strategy that will put this to rest." The problem with all feminists is that they all use the same line. DNY1, you so eloquently make it look like its all in AF hands! Your anology is no different than the UN announcing that the time has come for "ISRAEL TO MOVE ON" so please hand over all the occupied territories to the PA and there will be peace! We all know that its not true.If AF just gives up and moves on, not only does he lose what belongs to him but we are empowering those feminists and their evil rabbi advisers to continue to harrass men. Sorry this will not happen and for your info there is already a group of men working in the underground to undermine these evil people. How do you think mendel epstein and the gang got arrested?
ReplyDeleteWell, I thought everyone wants to arrive at the ability to give the get...or was I wrong?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if it will be to his credit in his daughter's eyes if he can tell her when she is an adult that "I was מעגן your mother for your sake and for the sake of my relationship with you."
Not at all. The Gedoilim want them to stop the chilul haShem, telling them to depart and clean up the mess immediately, and one Shamta has already been fired. They all know what to do and the order of cleanup. The Gedoilim have spoken!
ReplyDeleteYou're assuming she herself wants to receive a get , which by her excepting it proves that she's an adulterous , you can't really claim to be married to one person and need to get from another. the people attempting to cover up probably have a bigger difficulty with her than with him, as far as he's concerned her acceptance of a get vindicates him
ReplyDeleteR' S Miller came out on behalf of Lakewood 5 times, on behalf of Toronto another 5 times veod yodoi netuya. So this is already over a minyan times. The head of the M... got stuck at a simcha in IL, umishnehu the Baal haSimcha SK joined him in Yerushalayim while testing n blowing soap bubbles to see if his Siddur Kidushin is still betokef. RY CB is pondering whether Open Marriage is borur ubeDoime to Open orthodoxy. We need to establish if a kohen shedaato yofeh is toit meshuge whether we can passel him from eidus and kehuna and still be good for Kidushin. They are now either in consultation meetings or on vacation. Time will tell. In any which case, Rov Minyan veRov binyam of gedoilei oilam have already spoken.
ReplyDeleteSame response as to Ehud. Have fun....kol hakavod lachem. Go break the back of these evildoers and save the world.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is how I get lumped in with these 'feminists' you speak of. I would hope that AF would rather get on with his life, and would rather shield his only child from any further nastiness, ugliness, and shame. Even לשיטתכם, the woman is insane, evil, whatever. It would seem to me the sooner he can dissolve this the better. He would have to be nuts himself to be OK with staying in the role of poster boy for your battle. He has a young daughter...I think it is positively horrible that the poor child means nothing to anyone who wants to wage this war on her little back.
She is living in sin, and must depart, nobody else is reponsible in doing it except for her. Don't drag in the whole world to do this, that or the other. By stopping to sin, she will help the poor little girl, the rest will fall in place. That is the exit startegy.
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify: the term לפני עור refers to an action. Passively sitting while someone else does an עבירה is never לפני עור. The term for stopping that person is איפרושי מאיסורא. There is an obligation to stop someone from doing an איסור, but not if it involves a personal loss. The חיוב תוכחה applies even if embarrassment results to the rebuker according to rashi in ערכין. See חפץ חיים הל׳לה״ר כלל ד׳ ס׳ד׳ בהגה ובשו״ת שבט הלוי ח׳ רפז׳
ReplyDeleteIt is up to the מספר to decide, and if DT thinks this fits into ח״ח ל״הר ד׳ ז׳ or ח׳ח׳ or י׳א׳, then he can say it.
ReplyDeletewhat's your live example?
ReplyDelete“Consequently there
ReplyDeleteis great pressure to try and save the reputation of these gedolim by putting
pressure on Aharon Friedman. It is widely viewed by these rabbis that almost
all goals will be accomplished if he is sacrificed by forcing him to give a get
and receive nothing in
return.”
Parallel to me. The NYS courts could easily end the aranoff
v. aranoff mess by simply accepting that I divorced Susan 2/17/1993. But, no: I quote Judge Pesce 1996: “I have
discussed the matter with Mr. Rothbart, as well as justice Rigler. According to him, he told you that your two
children in Israel could be considered illegitimate if brought here because New
York did not recognize your Israeli divorce.”
Susan libeled me from the beginning and even now in
her November 4, 2015 court papers saying:
“Appellant abandoned me and our six children, ages 6,
11, 14, 16, 18, and 20, in 1991 and failed to pay child support. He has been tormenting me ever since with
hundreds of pages of repetitive and frivolous motions and attempted many times
to overturn the court’s enforcement of his child support obligations.”
I have a strong point: my כשר למהדרין 2/17/1993 Israeli divorce. Aaron Friedman has a strong point. He’s alive, well, and free and he never gave
Tamar a get.
Wow did Tamar libel Aaron
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon
Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring
Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have
protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a
website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official
congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah
International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media
has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the
bullets have been fired."
I hope one day the NYS courts will recognize my 2/17/1993
divorce of Susan. I hope one day Rabbi
Greenblat and Rabbis Kaminestkys and other rabbis and will recognize that no rabbi can marry
Tamar will Tamar already married to Aaron, with Aaron alive, well, and free and
never gave Tamar a get.
you keep placing the burden of resolution entirely on Aharon. What is Tamar going to say to her daughter about destroying their family, unilaterally deciding to take her away from her father, spending years slandering him and finally corrupting gedolim and the halachic process in order to commit adultery with world wide condemnation.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason that doesn't enter into your equation - just why doesn't Aharon focus on being able to take his daughter to get cookies in Shul and forget about everything else!
Where is your sense of balance? You don't think their daughter has enough intelligence to be able to understand what her mother has done?
CH.
ReplyDelete“he has not gotten his reputation restored
ReplyDeletesince all the announcements simply say that the reports are not justification
for mekach ta'os - leavening open the mistaken impression that Tamar was
justified in leaving the marriage.”
Fairness demands that Aaron’s reputation be restored. Tamar is a grumbler, like the grumblers that
didn’t want to leave the desert and make Aliya to Israel. Tamar never had a good reason to seek a
get. I quoted the Malbim and Isaiah on
grumblers. Grumblers need education that
life is good and grumbling for no good reason is bad. The rabbis that support Tamar are also grumblers
for no good reason. Here in Israel I see
few grumblers. Once, in Brooklyn in the
late 1980’s I met on a Shabbat a lady, guest of Rivka Haut, a”h, who was
seeking a get, who told me that her husband was ok but she was bored… I told Rivka Haut then: “Your organization
should have nothing to do with this sort!”
Rivka Haut replied to me “The lady thought of the matter at length and
decided… we should help her…”
Why did Tamar seek a get?
Why did the community rise up in her defense?
I quote:
ReplyDelete“For our sons are like saplings, well-tended in their youth;
our daughters are like cornerstones trimmed to give shape to a palace. Our
storehouses are full, supplying produce of all kinds; our flocks number
thousands, even myriads, in our fields; our cattle [אלופינו
our leaders] are well cared for. There is no breaching and no sortie, and no
wailing in our streets. Happy the people who have it so; happy the people whose
God is the Lord” (Psalms 144: 12-15).
תהלים קמ”ד י”ד
אַלּוּפֵ֗ינוּ מְֽסֻבָּ֫לִ֥ים אֵֽין פֶּ֭רֶץ
וְאֵ֣ין יוֹצֵ֑את וְאֵ֥ין צְ֝וָחָ֗ה בִּרְחֹבֹתֵֽינוּ:
Berachot 17a-b
explains:
“When the Rabbis took leave from the school of R. Hisda others Say, of R. Samuel b. Nahmani they said to him: “our cattle [אלופינו
our leaders] are well cared for. There is no breaching and no sortie, and no
wailing in our streets.” Rab and Samuel according to others, R. Johanan and R.
Eleazar give different explanations of
this. One Says: We are instructed in Torah, and well laden with precepts. The
other says: We are instructed in Torah and precepts; we are well laden with
chastisements. “There is no breaching” [that is], may our company not be like
that of David from which issued Ahitophel. “and no sortie” [that is] may our
company not be like that of Saul from which issued Doeg the Edomite. “and no
wailing may our company not be like that of Elisha, from which issued Gehazi. “in
our streets” may we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public [A
metaphor for the open acceptance of heretical teachings.].”
source?
ReplyDeleteuntil you decide that this high level best din is also mistaken...
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately personal ego is a very powerful force. We see that in the story of Yiftach's daughter where neither he nor Pinchas would move to annul Yiftach's vow. So too here. Rav Shmuel should ask himself though what his father would do if Reb Yaakov, zt'l, would have made such an error. My family knew Reb Yaakov personally and I can say with absolute certainty that if Reb Yaakov would have been presented with false information to render a psak and then learned the truth, he would have IMMEDIATELY rectified the error.
ReplyDelete"you keep placing the burden of resolution entirely on Aharon....where is your sense of balance?"
ReplyDeleteEssentially correct. Given the fact pattern you have developed, the mother is not concerned with either the short- or long-term consequences to her daughter. That leaves it to the one other person closest to the child -- the father -- to fill the role. That is what we sign up for when we become parents. You protect your children at all costs. So, if you call that a 'burden' on Aharon, IT IS. If he is the responsible adult here, his daughter's welfare MUST come first.
What is Tamar going to say to her daughter...?"
Given how you have portrayed her, she will probably obfuscate, lie, and deceive her daughter about all that has happened. So where does that leave things, DT and the rest of you? The daughter will be in a catch-22: either believe her mom and hate her dad, or believe her dad and hate her mom. Is that the position you want to put this child in? As I said above, 'win at all costs'? Really?
It is time for AF to realize that everyone has ALREADY lost. There can be no victory here. He should get the best situation he can at this point, and cut his (and most importantly, his daughter's) losses. That is what a responsible parent would do for their child. The kid didn't ask for any of this, and didn't choose who her mother or father would be. If one of those parents is a rasha and a menuval, it behooves the other parent to protect his kid to the greatest extent possible. So sorry to tell you all, but life isn't always fair. I am amazed I need to say that to you, DT.
"...as Rav Greenblatt says "I followed the Shulchan Aruch" and it doesn't matter to him whether the facts are true or not."
ReplyDeleteIf someone asks a shaila on a chicken whether it's kosher, and the Rav paskened that it is. He later finds out that the chicken was from a Neveila source, never had schita, does he still say, I paskened according to Shulchan Aruch and let them eat it beteavon, or immediately sends out an SOS, I have found out that the chicken is neveilo, and must be given to the dogs. He can say till doomsday "ein ledayan elo ma she'einov ro'os", this is Bas Haya'anaism par ecellence!
also
ReplyDeleteWhich other serious Beis Din is mistaken?
Bet din: RNG and the two RSKs.
ReplyDeleteGhe'll close up shop and sell / rent the property to another (jewish or secular) school / mossad. I've been there a couple of times. Its in good shape, and useful for many uses. Worth a few mills. He's also crying all the way to the bank.
ReplyDeleteRHS is one of those poskim who make up their minds once, too quickly, and never (publicly) change their minds.
ReplyDeleteThis is all Tsedaka money, everyone gave it for learning torah purposes and not for lining his pockets, especially not for teaching against the Torah. As for that, veal yevakshu Torah mipihu is at his doorstep.
ReplyDeleteThe last I heard through the grapevine is that kamenetzky family are soliciting a letter from many rabbis in support of rabbi SK senior many were told that it will only come out together with a retraction . The is in the process of formation is basically not going to discuss the issue but to give him moral support........
ReplyDelete1) it's very telling that rabbis who are wise to the ways of the world and would never sign a contract or commitment without seeing the goods seem to be taking some solicitors word that will be a retraction , something unlikely given their obstinacy .
2)these rabbis who are meant to uphold the Torah and of course we're sitting on the sidelines till now waiting for clarity and supposedly a retraction seem so eager to write a letter when the waters as muddled as ever , why can't they wait till I retraction is given a get is given and then they can give all the support they want to give they seemed more keen on upholding the respect for then upholding the Torah itself .
3) no one , no one has mentioned RS K by name in any letter no one has embarrassed him in any what way that should warrant a Maachoa(while I haven't seen the final draft it seems that you won't only be a show of support but also a criticism on those who have embarrassed them )the man if anything has embarrassed himself denying something he has done and allowing and supporting a married woman to remarry , every letter which came out was just reiterating what it says in the Torah a married woman need to get to remarry if somehow this embarrassed him well, the question is why ?
4)of course this is only a show support for RS K senior and of course the not taking a position on the supposed Heter ,will all assume that they view this Heter in the most grave manner , and if RSK Senior is not guilty ,then that puts all the guilt on our SK Junior why would the K family be promoting such a letter ??,this lease Shaloam out in the cold , unless they view it as a complete whitewash of the K family and the rabbis are promoting the K family no matter what the K family does a real sham.
5) the official Torah press has not uttered a word about this whole scandal , if not for this blog the matter would've been buried I'm sure she'll print this letter of support in every venue possible , rather silly since this letter screams he is innocent !!!!!and people will ask innocent of what, oh well
I have to wonder if the woman who has caused such machlokes by trying to buy legitimacy for her adultery may have committed adultery BEFORE separating from her husband. Was there ever a paternity test performed on the child Aaron Friedman want's to share custody of? Is she actually his daughter or is she a mamzeres?
ReplyDeleteDid anyone ever get the name of the psychologist that authored the opinion about the husband's mental state? Should not the identity of the most important player - the individual on whom the entire Psak relies on - in this saga be known? What are his credentials? Is his opinion valid according to Halacha? Under which State (?) guidelines or protocols does his opinion conform to?? Why is all this still being kept a secret?
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah says “Bottom line - a high level beis din which clearly understands
ReplyDeleteall the facts needs to decide.”
MiMedinat_HaYam says “Bet din: RNG and the two RSKs.”
Surely when the high-level beis din does meet, eventually, they will rule Rabbi Greenblatt and the two
Rabbi Kamenistky’s were wrong to approve Tamar marrying, with Aaron, alive,
well, and free and never gave Tamar a get. I’m happy to announce my 30th
Torah thought on Arutz Sheva http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18173#.Voi3AZuIrIU
100%
ReplyDeleteThe Kaminetskys are keeping it a secret. They claim the report involved illegal giving of information from a previous therapist and they don't want the two therapist to get in trouble
I have received similar information .
ReplyDeleteIn particular it is alleged that R. Elya Brudny from the Mir working very hard on this.
Apparently Moetzes is working on putting out a letter stating something to the effect that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky has denied any involvement therefore anyone who is mevaze him in any way is transgressing the worst possible aveiros.
Do you know any of the signers, other that Rabbi Brudny?
ReplyDeleteJoe Orlow once wrote a guest post where he said that in a phone conversation, RSK senior said that Tamar may remarry. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/05/tamar-epstein-is-free-according-to.html Does Joe have a recording of the conversation? If so, can it be published?
does bis din have an obligation to protect the reputation of a ZAKAIN MAMRAI??
ReplyDeleteIs Rabbi Feldman also expected to sign onto this? If not, how can the Moetzes humiliate Rav Feldman in their quest to protect RSK?
ReplyDelete“There
ReplyDeleteare allegations that the Moetzes - instead of condemning the Kaminetskys and R
Greenblatt for this scandal - are working on publishing a letter that Rav
Shmuel was not involved in the heter - a claim Rav Shmuel has made in several
letters to rabbonim. The problem is that his son R Shalom directly contradicts
this claim of non involvement in his letter to Rav Greenblatt”
I quote:
“Thus said the Lord of Hosts: I am very jealous for
Zion, I am fiercely jealous for her. Thus said the Lord: I have returned to
Zion, and I will dwell in Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be called the City of
Faithfulness, and the mount of the Lord of Hosts the Holy Mount. Thus said the
Lord of Hosts: There shall yet be old men and women in the squares of
Jerusalem, each with staff in hand because of their great age. And the squares
of the city shall be crowded with boys and girls playing in the squares. Thus
said the Lord of Hosts: Though it will seem impossible to the remnant of this people
in those days, shall it also be impossible to Me?—declares the Lord of Hosts.
Thus said the Lord of Hosts: I will rescue My people from the lands of the east
and from the lands of the west, and I will bring them home to dwell in Jerusalem.
They shall be My people, and I will be their God—in truth and sincerity and I
will bring them home to dwell in Jerusalem. They shall be My people, and I will
be their God—in truth and sincerity. Thus said the Lord of Hosts: Take courage,
you who now hear these words which the prophets spoke when the foundations were
laid for the rebuilding of the Temple, the House of the Lord of Hosts. For
before that time, the earnings of men were nil, and profits from beasts were
nothing. It was not safe to go about one’s business on account of enemies; and
I set all men against one another. But now I will not treat the remnant of this
people as before—declares the Lord of Hosts—but what it sows shall prosper: The
vine shall produce its fruit, the ground shall produce its yield, and the skies
shall provide their moisture. I will bestow all these things upon the remnant
of this people. And just as you were a curse among the nations, O House of
Judah and House of Israel, so, when I vindicate you, you shall become a
blessing. Have no fear; take courage! For thus said the Lord of Hosts: Just as
I planned to afflict you and did not relent when your fathers provoked Me to
anger—said the Lord of Hosts—so, at this time, I have turned and planned to do
good to Jerusalem and to the House of Judah. Have no fear! These are the things
you are to do: Speak the truth to one another, render true and perfect justice
in your gates. And do not contrive evil against one another, and do not love
perjury, because all those are things that I hate—declares the Lord” (Zachariah
8:2-17).
Didn't many other rabbonim get a copy of the report, like Rav Feldman, when sorry for the heter was being sought?
ReplyDeleteRav Feldman never blamed Rav Shmuel in his statement.
ReplyDeleteIt is possible I don't think so. Rav Feldman got the report because the Kaminetsky's were on the defensive - not to encourage him to approve the heter. As far I know the rabbonim received variations of the letters which I have published which only summarized the findings - but they were not give a copy of the report
ReplyDeletelies to cover-up other lies... see what it did to Nixon....
ReplyDelete" that was done by Rav Greenblatt together with Rav Feurst and others."
ReplyDeleteWho are the others? How long do you think you can secret around?
" The bottom line is that the heter would never had been given without Rav Shmuel's involvement and that furthermore it continues to exist entirely because he refuses to condemn it."
The Moetses will never procure such a letter, because it will put them in a worse position, and they will have to ask in public r'SKsr. why don't you condemn it now? Next thing, the Moetset will be asked the same, why don't you condemn it NOW, rather than to be sidetracked with who said what to whom. We have an eishes ish living in sin while you are arguing around doing absolutely nothing, why don't you take a STAND? This thing is a lost case and they will have to speak up sooner than later, if they only know what's good for them.
The RY's retirement fund is a tzedakah purpose, like it or not.
ReplyDeleteUnless the money was donated for a specific purpose. And even then, there are ways of manipulating..
Didn't RNG say he relied completely on RSG?
ReplyDeleteThe agudah moetzet works on 'consensus'. (though they manipulate the 'consensus'.)
ReplyDeleteThus, no one actually signs anything. Just issued in their name. Usually filtered through the agudah office, but i assume the office will not get involved. (Its a lose lose for them.)
A letter like that will only widen the scandal, not contain it. People who know nothing of the matter will be made curious.
ReplyDeleteinteresting how the latest twist in this ongoing drama is supposed to protect senior RSK.
ReplyDeleteLet's play "make believe" and say he knew nothing.
Nobody is arguing that junior RSK knew nothing, correct?
... If so, doesn't senior RSK have a מצוות תוכחה because of כל שבידו למחות ואינו מוחה נתפס ... He SURELY needs to be מוכיח junior RSK, right?
Now, let's keep on playing devil's advocate and say that senior RSK attempted to be מוחה and junior didn't want to listen.
Next, let's analyze the Halachic ramifications of junior RSK not listening to his father's תוכחה...
Everybody agrees this is extremely serious "stuff" .. whether because of אשת איש ... all the הערמות involved .. the הוצאת שם רע ... Not listening to תוכחה on something so serious is no laughing matter ....
Obviously, since junior RSK didn't retract, he would need to be branded as a bona fide לץ for ignoring his father's תוכחה... (See below).
Here's a new term that I think should be front and center in this saga:
לץ!
Can a לץ be allowed to continue to serve in the capacity of מרביץ תורה, etc. etc.? A לץ is one of the ד' כתות שאינם רואים פני השכינה (סוטה מב, סנהנדרין קג).
Here's the רבינו יונה defining לץ. It's in שער ג' אות קע"ו:
קעו. החלק הג' - מי שלועג תמיד לדברים ולפועלות ... מרחיק הדברים שאין להרחיקם ומרחיק תועלת הפועלות שיש תקוה לתועלותם. ועל זה נאמר (שם יג) בז לדבר יחבל לו. ואמרו אל תהי בז לכל אדם ואל תהי מפליג לכל דבר שאין לך אדם שאין לו שעה ואין לך דבר שאין לו מקום. והלץ הזה הביאהו למדתו הרעה היותו חכם בעיניו. ופעמים שהביאה מדה הזאת את האדם לידי מינות להלעיג על המצות. כענין שנאמר - (תהלים קיט) זדים הליצוני עד מאד מתורתך לא נטיתי. והחלק השלישי הזה היא הכת שאינו מקבלת תוכחת. שנאמר (משלי ט) אל תוכח לץ פן ישנאך ונאמר (שם) יוסר לץ לוקה לו קלון ונאמר (שם יט) לץ תכה ופתי יערים. והגורם אל הכת הזאת לבלתי שמוע מוסר. מפני שהמדה המביאה אל הלץ הזה היא מדת היות האדם חכם בעיניו. וכל כך משלה בו המדה הזאת עד שיתלוצץ לדעת זולתו והיא המדה שאין לה תקוה שנאמר (משלי כו) ראית איש חכם בעיניו תקוה לכסיל ממנו:
Upon further thought, this story has the characteristics of ALL four groups שאין
.מקבלים פני השכינה
There's an entirely different approach here that's highly plausable:
The internal mechanism of what's really going on IMHO - and as the the R"Y above בנוגע to כת לצים points out, is the היותו חכם בעיניו.
I think that the real driver here is that RSK believes with his whole heart and soul that AF is crazy. He can FEEL it .. he might have spoken to others who feel it, too ... and given the utterly nonsensical way how diagnosis is done RSK has no problem getting an expert opinion to agree to his feeling, which equals belief. You see, non-conformists will always find people who think they're crazy.
There we have it: FEELING = BELIEF.
With the right connections, your feelings get enough traction to destroy anybody and anything ... and there's never any reason to look back, because it's such a great mitzvah to be מתיר עגונות. Never mind that the whole "mitzvah" is in itself just based on Tamar's distress .. which is in itself caused mostly by her feelings being validated by these same people and experts. See the circle of שנאת חנם and הוצאת שם רע?
THIS is the שנאת חנם that was גורם חורבן בית המקדש and עדיין היא מרקדת בינינו. Add a B"D to the mix and you have חרב בא לעולם ... על עיוות הדין. No hyperbole, no exaggerations, just the facts, ma'am...
Hey AF, you're in good company. After all, I know some people believe that I too am crazy! .. and whichever non-conformer is reading this (too frum, too fei, makes no difference, just don't ruffle any feathers!) - watch out, because somebody out there feels that you too are crazy, and you may be next ... but I digress ...
RHS declared RSG as trustworthy.
ReplyDeleteIf he opposes the 'hetter' (i presume he opposes) , he is
morally obligated to publicly condemn it.
Yes, he did manipulate around here, but sof ganav letliya. Ein eitso v'ein tvuno neged H'
ReplyDeleteנוסף לזה, בעיני הציבור הרה”ג הנ"ל נתמך ע"י אחד מזקני ראשי הישיבה של הדור
ReplyDeleteובנו שהוא גם ת"ח חשוב, ואם כי הם מכחישים זאת, בודאי הרבה יסמכו על
השמועות להתיר איסורי אשת איש ע"פ השיטה הזאת, שהרי לדעתם כבר הורה כן גדול
בתורה.
if they only know what's good for them.
ReplyDeleteThey don't. How many people really value and look up to the Moetzes as their guiding light? People may respect and value the individual members of the Moetztes, but not the body and not due to their membership in
the Moetzes.
I'm not sure who CH is, but REMMS forbade RAYS's yeshiva and it's booming.
ReplyDeleteAn excellent comment. With all due respect, there is one more part that needs to be explained. What is the basis for Jr.'s feelings? What has caused him to feel this way? Clearly, part of it are his own desires and his own weaknesses, which has also caused him to get himself into so many controversies.
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean rav sholom does not inherit the kaminetzky family seat on the 'moetzet'?
ReplyDeleteWhat other controversies has Jr. been involved in? (Not challenging, I'm just unfamiliar with his history)
ReplyDeleteWhen and where did that happen? Is there a letter printed somewhere?
ReplyDeleteI think that's already a foregone conclusion...
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel can always say " I never meant it as Halacha l'maaseh" That is the usual get out clause.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering why this is of particular interest, when other controversial psakim have bene passed. Rav Moshe ztl made a famous psak on AI, stating it would not be aishes ish/mamzerus even for a married woman to receive AI from someone else.
This was not accepted but Rav Moshe remained in the moetzes
Nothing wrong with it being hereditary, if the officeholder is deserving.
ReplyDelete2. He'll get it back once it blows over.
The seat belongs to the Philly Rosh Yeshiva, not the K family. It was previously held by Rav Elya Svei prior to Rav Shmuel.
ReplyDeleteLet's get with the program. Most people in the know and even many talmidim already stopped relying on Rav Shmuel as he often flip flops and is bli ayin hara not a youngster. So drop the Rav Shmuel angle and focus the pressure on Rav Shalom, Rav Feurst (who seems to be out of the picture for some reason) and anyone else who signed on.
ReplyDeleteEddie - don't be ridiculous. If you have been following events it is clear that Rav Shmuel meant it as l'maaseh and he has stated that it was l'maaseh.
ReplyDeleteAgain this is not a halahic dispute - this is simply a psak based on lies.
It is the corruption that is the problem.
Who else was on the BD besides Rabbis Greenblatt and Fuerst?
ReplyDeleteIt is not clear that there was a beis din. It seems more likely that a number of rabbis simply agreed to the heter. That seems to be what Rav Greenblatt says in his letter.
ReplyDeleteI
ReplyDeletethink that it's the unrealistically elevated status of psychiatrists that’s the
problem. They’ve been given unwarranted power and authority, and as a
result Rabbinic authority has been weakened. We’ve given too much credence to
their opinions and so our judgments regarding marriage and divorce have suffered.
But you are simply making assertions - you haven't produced any evidence.You need to show that the results of mental health professionals can be surpassed or at least matched by rabbis not utilizing their methods.
ReplyDeleteTotally right. Shalom is the one who is most likely to cause problems in the future. By that same token, he is the one with the most to lose. He should be the focus.
ReplyDeleteno letter, but it was famous that if you wanted to talk to him in learning you had to deny that you learned there or he would stop talking to you cold turkey as soon as he found out
ReplyDeletefine, so the individuals have to do only what's good for them
ReplyDeleteBut philly at the time was strictly a high school yeshiva. Even today, the post high school program is nothing to talk about. (No disrespect to any participants.)
ReplyDeleteWho succeeded RYKaminetzky on the 'moetzet'?
If AF sues for defamation they won't be able to hide for long.
ReplyDeleteWhat did he have against RAYS?
ReplyDeleteAnd all but R' Greenblatt are lying low. Emphasis on lying.
ReplyDeleteOr at least what Rabbi Greenblatt was led to believe, it seems Shaloam Led him on in that sense, that he is not the sole arbiter but that he was joining others presumedly r shmuel and shalom possibly others, its quite possible he would not have decided so if he knew he was making the sole decision .note shalom didn't ask a Sheila he wrote a teshuva that it's okay
ReplyDeleteyou are many years too late. Psychology is already part of the religious world and has been widely accepted. For you to get up and say - well they are not legitimate is closing the barn door after the horse has left.
ReplyDeleteSo I disagree with you and say that you have the burden of proof against an approach which has become established
The title of the post is, “Tamar's Heter: Protecting Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is more important than protecting the Torah.”
ReplyDeleteMay I suggest, under fear of being banned, stoned to death, or diagnosed as “mentally ill”, Paranoid Personality Disorder, and posul from being allowed to ever be married, that the true title of the post should be;-
“Tamar's Heter: Protecting Psychiatry and Psychology is more important than protecting the Torah.”
To paraphrase the post, “The bottom line is that the heter would never had been given without” the psychiatrist’s and psychologist’s “involvement and that furthermore it continues to exist entirely because” we refuse “to condemn” them.
The post stated, “ It has clearly been publicly declared by these rabbis that persuading a psychiatrist to write an invalid report - is a major danger to the Orthodox community and the institution of marriage.”
And the post further says, “ In short neither cares whether the heter was obtained through falsely proclaiming that Aharon Friedman suffers from extreme incurable mental illness that disqualifies him from ever being able to marry.”
Every generation has its problems, and then later on we can look back at them and say, "they were wrong".
ReplyDelete300+ years ago, a generation believed that Shabbetai Tzvi was the Moshiach.We can now look back at that generation and say, "they were wrong".
Perhaps, in a future time, they will look back at our generation and say, "they were wrong".
and maybe they wont. You can't build a shita on such fantasies
ReplyDeleteThe Psychiatry and Psychology used by RSK and RNG was fraudulent and unethical. There is corruption possible in every field including the rabbinate. Police departments have Internal Affairs divisions. What do we have until Malchus Bais Dovid returns?
ReplyDeleteI do not want to defend what anyone did here, and I think all the rabbis involved in the heter were quite wrong, but after my reading here I am quite sure of one thing - Rav Shalom Kamenetsky was not looking for a heter. I actually think he went shipping for an issur, and was shocked whan R' Greenblatt gave a heter based on his letter.
ReplyDeleteHis letter, as everyone here has noticed, is ridiculous from a halachic standpoint, and that is because it was meant to be rejected. He was pretty clearly pressured by his father to write something, so he did, hoping that whoever received the letter would be intelligent enough to read and realize right away that it provides no basis at all for a heter, because there cannot be a heter. I think afterwards he found himself in a situation like Aaron by the eigel, where he tried to push everyone off by asking them to bring their wive's gold, and then apparently not having a plan when they all showed up with gold. Now RSK cannot say anything except that he played R' Greenblatt for a fool (which he did), which he is not ready to say.
R' Greenblatt should have actually read the letter and looked at the sources quoted, and then he would not have gotten involved matiring an eishes ish.
And, as I said, I do not think this justifies what RSK did with writing this letter.
(Yes, I learned in Philly, and I say this based on my experience with RSK.)
Interesting theory.
ReplyDeleteExcept that it's been stated on this blog that he went to a number of Poskim before going to RNG, all of whom declined to give a heter, which makes it seem like he was shopping for a heter.
I would very much like for the names of those poskim to be revealed and for them to make their stance public.
Dearest Lemuel,
ReplyDeleteBeing dan l'kaff z'chus is truly admirable. It is, however, important to clarify what it entails and what it does not entail. Judging a person favorably does not mean, nor does it include, making up fantasies. It means looking for the favorable side in the action.
In your little theory casting all the blame on Rabbi Greenblatt, you are calling a person who is dishonest and sought to fool his father. Additionally, you are ignoring the fact that he sent letters to many, many different rabbonim. Finally, if he was seeking to fool his father (in the way you claimed he did), he could have claimed to have written letters and not have actually written them.
Either way, do you have any explanation on why R Shalom encouraged people to date and "marry" Tamar? Additionally, if he is indeed a dishonest and conniving person, is he fit to be a Rosh Yeshiva of a real Yeshiva?
You are either hocking a cheinik or deliberately muddying the waters. It is a fact that he spent years assiduously pursuing this heter by numerous rabbonim. It was not some silly trick as you describe.
ReplyDelete"he spent years assiduously pursuing this heter by numerous rabbonim"
ReplyDeleteWho are the rabbonim that he pursued?
if what to me is famous was/is unknown to you, then apparently we've been in separate closets. anyway, i regret bringing this up. i wanted to show that often enough people survive a mess-up. it wasn't my intention to call attention to how many people who are doing fine now messed themselves up previously.
ReplyDeleteI do not think he was trying to fool his father. I think he was trying to do what his father told him to do in way which would not lead to a heter. If it is true that he encouraged people to date Tamar, and that he wrote to many rabbanim and then accepted R' Greenblatt's heter, then I retract my suggestion.
ReplyDeleteI came late to this discussion, and did not read all the threads.
There should be many letters available from the other rabbanim - has anyone publicly said that they received a letter from him, and are they willing to share it?
There are rabbonim who told me he contacted them and asked them to sign the heter
ReplyDeleteWere they willing to share any details of the conversation? What did he say when they pointed out that this is completely anti-halach?
ReplyDelete"Think of how Elisha ben Avuya's talmidim felt..."
ReplyDeleteI have had enough religious authority crises, and I will get past this also. Unless there will be a public retraction and explanation I do not think he should be accepted as a Rosh Yeshiva.
I was actually more bothered by how little sense there was in how they dealt with the heter than I would have been if they openly embraced marriage annulments.
I'm guessing it's not unknown to me, just that I didn't know that it received such a reaction from REMS. Was it due to the way RAYS decided to handle the older talmidim of Rav Berel?
ReplyDeleteIf so, I wouldn't necessarily call it a mess-up...
Sorry, not at liberty to divulge. But Rabbi Fuerst was one.
ReplyDeleteKinas Sofrim is different than Kinas H' Tsvoko's. Forgive for the delay, just figured out one of the concerned.
ReplyDeleteI understand that you're not at liberty.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if you are connected to such Rabbonim, could you perhaps make clear to them that making their names public would be a great toeles. That way, the hamon am might begin to realize that this was regular posek-shopping and that after X number of poskim refused to allow it, Shalom finally hit on the nonagenarian who would followhis word without looking into the facts.
Thank you.
The Rabbi, Daas Torah, writes in his profile:-
ReplyDelete"Daas Torah
I have a Ph.D.in psychology and have provided guidance and short-term therapy for many years - especially in areas of religious conficts & reframing."
I can accept the term 'guidance'.
It's the word 'therapy' that I have problem with.
If 'therapy' means "the treatment of disease" then,
Daas Torah profile - "short-term therapy ..... - especially in areas of religious conficts"
means that "religious conflicts" is a disease!?
Can a doctor send a blood specimen to the laboratory to be tested for "religious conflicts"?
People have been having "religious conflicts" since Adam and Chava, but 'illness' and 'therapy'?
I suppose the Mabul at the time of Noach could be called 'Shock Treatment'!
Clearly this 'therapy' didn't work because man soon became sick again and built the tower of Bavel.
Was Korach sick, he had a "religious conflict"?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/therapy
therapy
[ther-uh-pee]
noun, plural therapies.
1. the treatment of disease or disorders, as by some remedial, rehabilitating, or curative process:
speech therapy.
2.a curative power or quality.
noun, plural therapies.
Origin of therapy
1840-50; < New Latin therapīa < Greek therapeía healing (akin to therápōn attendant)
Now we understand, that psychiatrists keep inventing new "diseases" like ADD, PPD, getting old, drinking alcohol, gambling, overeating, undereating, and obsessive shopping disorder, and each time they invent a new "disease" the Halacha changes and new people become posul for getting married, and women can practice polyandry.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polyandry
polyandry
[pol-ee-an-dree, pol-ee-an-]
noun
1.
the practice or condition of having more than one husband at one time.
Compare monandry (def 1).
May I suggest a new disease? ODD - Obsessive Diagnosing Disorder.
Please will you ask HaRav Sternbuch shlita about this, I asked Rav Sternbuch about this very problem on the telephone in Johannesburg many years ago. Please ask him if he remembers!
As I mentioned from my own telephone conversation with RNG (regarding an eruv where the food is inaccessible to people Yitz sWyne hates) he is too trusting to the extent that he simply accepts statements "from Bnai Torah" even when the information is blatantly false.
ReplyDeleteThere's little pleasure pulling skeletons out of the closet. I'm happy for you that you don't bear the weight of what happened. How about if you just don't believe me and we'll call it a day? Kol tuv.
ReplyDeleteThat way, the hamon am might begin to realize...
ReplyDeleteכולי האי ואולי
Why's this years old thread back on top? Has anything changed in the last 2+ years regarding the status between Aharon and Tamar?
ReplyDeleteit is apparent that many today are not aware of the facts because the happened two years ago - which is greater than their attention span
ReplyDeletewith the recording of Rav Shmuel denying involvement just providid the letters so he can state either he or his are liars
What is more severe the annulment in Haifa based on an unkosher witness or rav shmuel's alleged hettar?
ReplyDeleteHave the signatories of the Haifa protest come out against rsk senior or junior?