Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes L’Yakov Bamidbar 5:15):The reason for this whole procedure of Sotah is that when a man suspects his wife of adultery only if G-d directly assures him that she is innocent, even though this isn't so for any other sin but rather 2 witnesses alone establish the facts, because the husband will not believe them. Because the husband would not believe even a prophet therefore for the sake of shalom bayis G-d allows His name to be erased and it is as if G-d is directly stating she is innocent therefore the foundation of the law of sotah is not to punish the wife but to ensure the husband believes she is innocent which is the basis of Chullin 141a Great is the peace between man and wife, for the Torah has permitted the name of G-d which is to be written in all sanctity, to be washed away in the waters of bitterness,
Does the Gemorah relate whether, as a matter of the historical record, any wife ever died as a result of drinking the Sorah waters?
ReplyDeleteIt does say that at some point because of widespread adultery it wasn't effective. Also if the husband was an adulterer or if she had some zechus she did not die
ReplyDeletebut it also says that there was no adultery in Bayit Sheni era, people kept Halacha to a tee, just they were rude to each other.
ReplyDeleteMidrash Tanhuma (Naso 6)
ReplyDeleteA story is told o of two sisters who resembled one another.
One sister was married and lived in one city, and the other sister was married and lived in another city.
The husband of one of them grew jealous of his wife and wanted to bring her to Jerusalem to drink the bitter waters. That sister went to the city where her sister lived with her husband.
Her sister said to her: Why did you see fit to come here? She said to her: My husband wants me to drink the bitter waters. Her sister said: I will go in your stead and drink. She said to her: Go.
She dressed herself in her sister’s clothes and went in her stead. She drank the bitter water, and was found to be innocent.
She returned to the home of her sister, who came out happily to greet her. She embraced her sister and kissed her on the lips.
When they kissed one another, her sister breathed in the smell of the bitter waters, and immediately she died.
See Mishnah (Sotah 47a)
ReplyDeleteמשרבו המנאפים, פסקו המים המרים
This Mishnah indicates, that the sotah dying from drinking the waters, was a known phenomenon, which later ceased, due to increased promiscuity.
Why should it cease to work because of adultery. When that is its entire purpose?
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's why Hashem allows the erasing of his name. G-d is usually zealous to protect his name. Right upfront in the Ten Commandments is the prohibition against misusing His Name. And in proximity to that it says "Anochi...Kel Kana."
ReplyDeleteBy the jealous husband Hashem may be saying, "My name which is how I am known is getting erased and I'm not going to arouse my jealousy. You defined yourself by your relationship with your wife. And your wife erased that bond. But it's not irreversible. Let go of your jealousy, too, and the trust you put in me will restore my name and your marriage."
Where does it say there was no adultery?
ReplyDelete"In a similar vein but addressing specific tragedies, the Tosefta (end of Menachot)
ReplyDeleteoffers the most well-known explanations for the Temples’ destructions:
the First Temple was destroyed because of the idol worship, prohibited
sexual relations and bloodshed that took place within it, and the Second
Temple was destroyed “because they love money and each one hates his
neighbor.” Note that while the Tosefta attributes the Churban to sinat chinam, it does not use the specific term. A parallel passage, however, appearing in the Yerushalmi (Yoma 1:1) and the Bavli (Yoma 9a-b), does use the familiar term “sinat chinam” in explaining the destruction of the Second Temple.3"
https://jewishaction.com/religion/shabbat-holidays/churban/whats-the-truth-about-the-cause-of-the-destruction-of-the-beit-hamikdash-2/
It doesn't blame the 3 cardinal sins for the destruction of the 2nd temple. I had heard this in the context of there being no problem with Idolatry , adultery and murder. However, the article cites specific cases of these too.
See Ramban (Bamidbar 5:20) who explains that the primary purpose of the miracle of the Sotah, was to cleanse the Israelites from Mamzerim, in order that the nation should be worthy of the Divine Presence among them.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, once the number of adulterers increased, the merit of the people of Israel was diminished, and they were not considered worthy of such a great miracle to be performed among them.
Moreover, the miracle was being done for them in their honor, due to them being a holy people. However once the number of adulterers increased, and they would not understand this benefit, and would not desire it, Hashem therefore stopped performing this miracle.
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%A2:%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%91%22%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%91%D7%A8_%D7%94_%D7%9B
Doesn't say there was no adultery!
ReplyDeleteThe Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.
ReplyDeleteIn the Shevet HaLevi there is a responsa about a woman who dressed herself nicely and put on makeup only when she was going out of the house, where she would be seen by her friends and neighbors. This is when she cared to appear attractive. However, in her own house, she did not care to enhance her natural appearance. Was this conduct acceptable, or did it indicate some degree of a breach in the standards of tznius? The answer given was that although we find in the Gemarah that Chazal emphasized that a woman should care about her appearance, this is specifically in terms of not being repulsive in front of her husband. If a woman puts a great effort into being noticed by strangers, this is reminiscent of the sins of the daughters of Yerushalayim at the time of the destruction.
But it wasn't a major cause of churban, whereas it was explicitly mentioned as a cause in the first churban.
ReplyDeleteYeshayahu was critical of how women dressed up, but it's not clear to me if this was tzniut or gaavah.
ReplyDeleteSo you admit you were wrong?
ReplyDeleteMy being wrong doesn't mean you are right.
ReplyDeleteA) it was rife in bayit rishon, but they didn't abolish sotah ordeal.
B) ordeal was designed for adultery, so why was it abolished when there was a low burden of adultery?
C) adultery is not given as a cause of 2nd churban. So the only way you can maintain your stance is that it was present, but not significant enough to cause a churban.
Akavya Ben mehalelel reveals that the ritual had been tampered with, to make it ineffective. This perhaps explains the deeper problem.
He was not a crank or conspiracy theorist, he was the gadol hador.
Rambam hints that the issue was that more husbands were also committing adultery and therefore the water did nothing.
ReplyDeleteIn other words it was discontinued because it was no longer effective
What do you (citing Rambam) mean by that it .came to a point that more husband's committed adultery? For all time, anytime a wife committed adultery obviously a man, by definition, also committed adultery.
ReplyDeleteIf her husband also committed adultery.
ReplyDeleteSotah was only because of sofek. In bayis sheini it wasn't a sofek
Halachicly, if someone committed adultery without sofek (as your describing during the times of Bayis Sheini), what was the remedy? The death penalty?
ReplyDeleteyes death
ReplyDeleteObviously the wives were committing adultery with men other than husband
How often was the death penalty utilized in adultery cases?
ReplyDeleteDavid Kerzner asks: “Does the Gemorah relate whether, as a matter of the historical record, any wife ever died as a result of drinking the Sotah waters?”
ReplyDeleteSee Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Biden ripped for joking about running over reporter who asked about Israel (daattorah.blogspot.com)
Here Hebrew:
הושע פרק ד פסוק יג - יד
(יג) עַל רָאשֵׁי הֶהָרִים יְזַבֵּחוּ וְעַל הַגְּבָעוֹת יְקַטֵּרוּ תַּחַת אַלּוֹן וְלִבְנֶה וְאֵלָה כִּי טוֹב צִלָּהּ עַל כֵּן תִּזְנֶינָה בְּנוֹתֵיכֶם וְכַלּוֹתֵיכֶם תְּנָאַפְנָה:
(יד) לֹא אֶפְקוֹד עַל בְּנוֹתֵיכֶם כִּי תִזְנֶינָה וְעַל כַּלּוֹתֵיכֶם כִּי תְנָאַפְנָה כִּי הֵם עִם הַזֹּנוֹת יְפָרֵדוּ וְעִם הַקְּדֵשׁוֹת יְזַבֵּחוּ וְעָם לֹא יָבִין יִלָּבֵט:
I admit that I was wrong to say there was zero adultery
ReplyDeleteWhere does he hint this? In the Yad?
ReplyDeleteIt was not an iron dome with algorithms. It was a miraculous device.
The problem was also that the kohanim had lost their power.
Rav akavya's attack on shemaya and avtalyon alleges they tampered with the formula. He was not accepted by the majority, but he heard it from a different majority
רמב"ם על משנה מסכת סוטה פרק ט משנה ט
ReplyDelete[ט] אמר ה' ונקה האיש מעון והאשה ההיא תשא את עונה, בזמן שהאיש מנוקה מעון המים בודקין את אשתו.
So that is only in a case where both are adulterers.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the death penalty for adultery, what criteria would have
ReplyDeleteBitter waters deals with this, when the husband can't prove it.
ReplyDeleteNope only when he has a doubt that bothers him
ReplyDeleteYes, but he can't prove it in a regular bd.
ReplyDeleteRav Yakov deals with that
ReplyDelete"The
ReplyDeletereason for this whole procedure of Sotah is that when a man suspects his wife of adultery
only if G-d directly assures him that she is innocent,"
What if there is no Navi present? And what if she is not innocent?
Where is this Rav Yaakov? What does he say?
ReplyDeleteread the posting
ReplyDelete