Igros Moshe (Y.D. 3:88): Is it permitted to argue with the words of our Sages in public – even in their communities? You are concerned about the permissibility of moving to Bnei Brak because there are times when you will be disagreeing with the Chazon Ish zt”l. I really don’t understand why you are concerned. In fact the opposite is true. It is in fact showing respect to the Chazon Ish zt”l by mentioning his Torah view and examining his words – even though you don’t end up agreeing with him. It would be inconceivable to the Chazon Ish zt”l that there shouldn’t be a talmid chachom who disagreed with him. It is simply not possible that he would be bothered by this. In fact the opposite is true. He loved truth and peace as it says in (Yevamos 14b) concerning the dispute between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel. In fact the idea that the deceased talmid chachom gets pleasure from discussion of his Torah work – is even when it is disputed. However, obviously it has to be mentioned respectfully. This that Rabbi Yehoshua suffered (Chagiga 28b) was not because he questioned the words of Beis Shammai but because he spoke in an inappropriate manner against them. But when done respectfully there is absolutely no problem - either with questioning the words of a talmid chachom or disagreeing with them. In fact not only is it permitted but we see from Bava Basra (130) that Rava told his students that they were not allowed to rule according to a view of his that they disagreed with since a judge can only rule based on how he sees things. The same applies with issurim…. As long as a student could not find an explanation for difficulties he had with Rava’s understanding he is not allowed to make a ruling in accord with it - even though Rava was his teacher.. If that were true with Rava and his students than it is surely true that one should not be concerned about questioning and disagreeing with gedolim of our generation – even the highest level gadol – as long as it is done in a respectful manner. Therefore there is absolutely no basis for concern or to feel it is inappropriate to remain in Bnei Brak and to give lectures. Just the opposite is true, the Chazon Ish with be your advocate in Heaven because you study his Torah works in a serious manner.
Marvelous article! "Rava told his students that they were not allowed to rule according to a view of his that they disagreed with since a judge can only rule based on how he sees things."
ReplyDeleteThere isnt anyone today who follows this system, certainly not in the world of Daas Torah.
There is a single view, and it is accepted blindly. A good example is in recent weeks, the declaration about renting apartments to arabs. Without taking sides on that matter, some prominent Gedolim who signed the letter, had to withdraw when their Rebbe came out against it.
What is the Context?
ReplyDeleteWho was R' Moshe addressing?
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe is talking about someone of stature can disagree. Rav Moshe is not granting permission to every yodle on the street to disagree with the CI.
ReplyDelete"Dave said...
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe is talking about someone of stature can disagree. Rav Moshe is not granting permission to every yodle on the street to disagree with the CI."
Dave, that's all very well, but your argument is really a "No True Scotsman " fallacy; ie, only someone of stature can disagree with the CI - but of course, noone has the stature to do this.
Any respectful student can offer an alternative view, that is disagreeing. You dont need to be a Rambam to disagree. That is precisely what Rava was teaching his students.
There is another oft quoted Halacha, that a Sanhedrin would reach a capital decision, but they woudl start with the youngest Judge, and work upwars, so that the younger ones are no influenced by the opinion of the Elders. Today, the complete opposite exists: The Oldest will give his Daas Torah, and then magically, all his followers will arrive at that same opinion!
Incorrect Eddie. There are those of stature who can disagree. i.e. the Brisker Rov, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Satmar Rebbe, the Steipler, Rav Ahron Kotler, etc. etc.
ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDeleteso who was asking the qn of Rav Feinstein, was it someone of stature you just mentioned?
"Bava Basra (130) that Rava told his students that they were not
ReplyDeleteallowed to rule according to a view of his that they disagreed
with since a judge can only rule based on how he sees things. The
same applies with issurim…. As long as a student could not find an
explanation for difficulties he had with Rava’s understanding he
is not allowed to make a ruling in accord with it - even though
Rava was his teacher."
very good, so can a student disagree with the GADOL HADOR or even the Talmud?
Regarding the Chazon Ish - Rav Goren tells a story in his book, that there was a debate with the CI by a number of Rabbis in Israel, including Rav Herzog, Rav Tukachinsky, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, and several other gedolim on the subject of the International Dateline. They sat as a group, and Rav Herzog wrote a letter tot eh CI putting down his objections tot he ruling the CI had made. Rav Goren took it to the CI, and the CI welcomed him, but didn't open the letter. After Rav Goren had failed to persuade him to read the letter , he said that he was a shaliach, and that if he was unable to fulfill the mission to get him to read the letter, then he would need to pay the travel costs himself - so the CI read the letter, then placed it back in the envelope.
R Goren says that the CI was so great that you need to study every single point he makes, and understand fully what he says -a nd that even so, you cannot disagree with him, but at best only arrive at a compromise - which is what they did on the Dateline.
Rav Moshe paskened that you can disagree with the Chazon Ish
ReplyDeleteNot me...personally...
ReplyDeleteIf that is the general rule, it breaks the Daas Torah view of bnei brak.
ReplyDeleteA mizrachi or modern rav, if with reasoned and respectful argument can disagree with well known authorities.
You are making a big mistake - the issue of concern is not whether someone can voice disagreement but whether anyone will take it seriously
ReplyDeleteThe example of the international dateline - the gedolim who disagreed with the chazon ish, but still kept a 1 and a half day day compromise.
ReplyDeleteA small rav could only argue that he follows , Eg rav isser Zalman, or rav Kasher.
But in the example of smoking, it's perhaps more reasonable to take a stricter view , Eg based on scientific evidence. Or even halachic reasoning.
nope, the mistake in logic is yours -
ReplyDeletesince you are employing the no true scotsman fallacy.
when you say "anyone" you only mean Hareidim, since in your view, the frum jew who are not Ashkenazi/hareidi are nobody, and what they do does not count.
There is fact and there is dogma.
ReplyDeleteAs a Rav of mine once told me, "I could disagree with Rav Moshe, zt"l, but good luck with me being able to support my position better than he did his." That's the fact. If someone can come up with a strong enough position to disagree with Rav Moshe, let him.
Then there's dogma - how dare you disagree with this Gadol! He's got Ruach HaKodesh!
very few things that a regular guy can disagree with Rav Moshe on
ReplyDeleteone of them, smoking, has already passed the threshold, and that is hardly permitted by any major people today.
How are you disagreeing with Rav Moshe on smoking.
ReplyDeleteThe metzius that it is is harmful for you.
ReplyDeleteeither it is harmful or not
if it is harmful, it is sakkanat nefesh.
Rav Goren actually forbade it. How many people died from smoking in the frum world?
"The Gadol Hador,, Rav Moshe Feinstein
ReplyDelete, in a brief, albeit pivotal
dated several months after the Surgeon General’s initial report,
wrote that although it is certainly appropriate to abstain from smoking, nevertheless, one cannot say that smoking is outright
, as there are many people that smoke. Therefore, smokers fit into the category of “
, Hashem watches over fools.”
Rav Moshe adds that especially since many
smoked, it is impossible to say that such an act is truly forbidden.
This responsum seems to be the primary justification for many a smoker."
https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5717
I heard that the Lubavitcher rebbe himself gave up smoking, as he decided it was nto a godo habit to have.
When i used to vist Rabbi Sacks zl, before he became Cheif rabbi, he was smoking a pipe. sadly, he battled cancer throughout his adult life.
ReplyDelete"Several years ago, his son, Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a, was quoted as saying that with the current knowledge of the harm smoking causes, it is pashut
ReplyDeletethat had his father, Rav Moshe, still been alive today, he would have
prohibited smoking outright, as his dispensation was only based on the
‘fact’ that smoking endangered only a small percentage of smokers.[26] Indeed, in a newly discovered and recently published teshuva of Rav Moshe’s, dated Elul 5732, he himself wrote that his famous lenient psak was based on the facts as they were known at the time.[27] He added that if the metzius
would change and the percentages of those proven harmed by smoking
would increase, then certainly it would be prohibited to smoke, at least
the amount the doctors considered harmful to one’s health."
You are rather naive if you really think Rav Moshe's tshuva was used by any one to smoke or not. they might have rationalized their in ability to not stop. But the simple fact is cigarettes are addictive Rav Fisher told his doctor that since Jews don't smoke on Shabbos it is not so harmful. His doctor replied that his xrays looked the same as that of goyim who smoked. One of my rebbes in yeshiva replied honestly that he smoked because of his yetzer harah. Reb Yaakov blamed his chavrusa for his smoking. While Rav Ruderman blamed smoking for not achieving what Reb Aharon did. Also the Baal Shem Tov viewed smoking as a spiritual experience.
ReplyDeleteBottom line you dpn't make an issur that people will ignore!. Rav Ruderman was asked by a relative that since he clearly was favorable to Israel why didn't't he tell people it is desirable to make aliyah. He answered you don't make pronounements that nobody will listen to.
ReplyDeleteOK, so don't tell chilonim to stop eating pork, or octopus, and don't protest when they drive on shabbos. don't make an issur! They won't listen anyway.
ReplyDeleteProblem with your statement is that endagering one's own life is an issur of sakkanat nefesh , not a gezeira against wigs. If they can ban smartphones, why can't they ban cigarettes? Actualyl, public health campaigns have been very successful, less and less people are smoking.
from my experience, albeit anecdotal, smoking is/was less prevalent in MO circles than in hareidi. Even a few years ago, Hassidic looking fellows in the duty Free would ask me to help them buy cigarettes using my allowance!
ReplyDeleteAnd this was because of ______?
ReplyDeleteIn other words you are a great fan of just saying no?
ReplyDeleteWorks great for drug addiction and premarital sex
Presumably, mo would have more scientifically trained, doctors, etc, more exposure to TV, media etc. Takes less time to filter through.
ReplyDeleteSmoking. In a way is like other health scares. Covid took a few months for most people to figure out it is dangerous. Smoking has a delayed effect. In any case, most of the rabbis and gedolim you mentioned eventually gave up.
ReplyDelete"In fact not only is it permitted but we see from Bava Basra (130)
ReplyDeletethat Rava told his students that they were not allowed to rule
according to a view of his that they disagreed with since a judge
can only rule based on how he sees things. The same applies with
issurim…. As long as a student could not find an explanation for
difficulties he had with Rava’s understanding he is not allowed to
make a ruling in accord with it - even though Rava was his
teacher.."
So according to the above, there is no "daas torah", and no requirement to bow to the opinion of a Gadol or rosh yeshiva, if the individual rabbi is not convinced by his argumentation.
Rav Nachman of Breslav is reported as having said, when tobacco was first becoming popular in East Europe, "isn't it enough that we have all these other yetzer haras, that we need a new one" i.e. smoking.
ReplyDeleteSource?
ReplyDeleteI read it in one of the Breslov books in English, but this guy says it the same way
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8_baf8fUsM