Tuesday, August 22, 2023

Text and verbal teachings are not the Mesorah

I recently reviewed the following gemorah which seems to indicate that the main Mesorah is based on observation not text or verbal lessons. In fact we have the rule Berachos (7b)shimush is greater than learning. Maharsha has a different explanation. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. In fact I think this indicates that what is taught in seforim and classes might actually contradict actual practise!

     Berachos (7b)  R. Johanan further said in the name of R. Simeon b. Yohai: The service of the Torah is greater than the study thereof.36 For it is said: Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, who poured water on the hands of Elijah.37 It is not said, who learned, but who poured water. This teaches that the service of the Torah is greater than the study thereof.
תפארת ישראל - יכין מסכת אבות פרק ב
קג) והוי מתחמם כנגד אורן של חכמים. זה אמר כנגד לימוד התורה שנקראת אור, שנאמר ותורה אור [משלי ו' כ"ג], אמנם אפשר לקבל האורה מהאור מרחוק, אבל א"א שיתחמם מהאור מרחוק, להכי אמר הוה מתחמם וכו', ר"ל לא תסתפק להיות מואר מלימודם מרחוק, אבל ראה שתתקרב אליהם ותחמם הרגשותיך כשתראה מעשיהם בהתלהבות קדוש, דגדולה שימושה של תורה יותר מלימודה [כברכות ד"ז ב']:

ר' צדוק:

...והוצרך לשלוח יהושע משרתו שנקרא נוצר תאנה שהיה מסדר הספסלים ומשמש לדברי תורה, ואז"ל (ברכות ז' ב') גדולה שימושה של תורה יותר מלימודה, ושמעתי דהלימוד הרי יש לו גבול עד כמה הוא משיג, אבל השימוש הוא החשק והאהבה שיש למשמש שמחמתו הוא משמש ומשתדל להקים דגל התורה, זה אין לו גבול, כי הוא אינו משיג עצמות דברי תורה המתגלה לחכמים רק חומד וכוסף לדברי תורה, היינו לשורש התורה כולה, ולכך מצד השימוש יש גם כן בכללו כח של שער הנ' הנעלם ומצידו הוא ניצוח עמלק... (חלק ה רסיסי לילה עמוד קכ)



Berachos (62a)It has been taught: R. Akiba said: Once I went in after R. Joshua to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not sit east and west but north and south; I learnt that one evacuates not standing but sitting; and I learnt that it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said Ben Azzai to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. It has been taught: Ben ‘Azzai said: Once I went in after R. Akiba to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not evacuate east and west but north and south. I also learnt that one evacuates sitting and not standing. I also learnt it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said R. Judah to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? — He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. R. Kahana once went in and hid under Rab's bed. He heard him chatting [with his wife] and joking and doing what he required. He said to him: One would think that Abba's mouth had never sipped the dish before! He said to him: Kahana, are you here? Go out, because it is rude.1 He replied: It is a matter of Torah, and I require to learn.

30 comments :

  1. Well the obvious support for this is Haym Soloveitchik's "Rapture and Reconstruction:
    https://www.lookstein.org/professional-dev/rupture-reconstruction-transformation-contemporary-orthodoxy/

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  2. You seem to be confusing Mesorah with shimush.
    Shimush is serving scholars. The reward may be greater but that doesn't negate Mesorah.
    Certain practices may not have been taught, or even part of the Torah.
    There may be another reason why someone used his left hand.
    He just observed it with no reason why.

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  3. nope you apparently aren't familiar with the term shimush. until relatively recently expertise in all major fields required shimush.

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  4. In Lubavitch, they told a story of how the rebbe holds lulav and etrog. One year he held them in one hand, another year in 2 hands.
    That tells absolutely nothing about the correct way.
    Same goes with rav soloveitchik. His driver, had some tapes og conversations and says one thing, his other talmidim say entirely a different thing.

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  5. This is amazing - especially for Sephardi halacha. Soap bar on shabbat!
    http://halachayomit.co.il/en/Default.aspx?HalachaID=3686

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  6. Hmm.
    "This teaches that the service of the Torah is greater than the study thereof."

    Yeah, but I don't see anywhere in these words that this teaches learning and verbal lessons are "not the mesorah." That seems to be a wild interpretation to me, unconnected to the text, which you have used as your headline but haven't justified. It goes way beyond the text saying service is greater than study.

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  7. that is what shimush has always meant

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  8. What do you mean by "that is what shimush has always meant." What in particular are you saying is what shimush has always meant, that is missed in my original reply?

    The text says service is greater than study. The text does not say study is "Not the mesorah"

    10 is greater than 5. That does not make 5 into zero.
    If teachings are "not the masorah," as you claim, why did they compile, codify and eventually write the mishna and talmud? At very least don't we need a way to remember what was transmitted through shimush?

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  9. RAV cHAIM Kanievsky SAID THAT THERE IS NO OLIGATIOn to visit ones rebbe Chol HaMoed nor is there any longer a prohibition of a talmidn paskening in his rebbe's place because we all have the same rebbe i.e. sefarim.

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  10. the term shimush has always referred to observational learning as opposed to text or Oral teachingsThis observed behavior is the Mesorah.Your last question is interesting but doesnt refute anything.

    For example Rabbi Akiva was willing to die of thirst in jail to ensure he could wash his hands even though he taught that it wasnt required. He explained he was concerned he would be observed eating without washing and it would be assumed to be normative halacha

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  11. and therefore if someone observed one way and thus did it that way would it count?

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  12. Does that make his actions correct? Or were his actions wrong?
    And how do you know this? From texts? Oh, but the texts aren't Mesorah!

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  13. That is why this kind of observation does not tell us much. Perhaps the rebbe didn't know and was trying various ways. Or he was no longer strong enough to hold thrm both in one hand.

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  14. the authority is because the rebbe did it so by definition it is correct

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  15. Looking into books for a psak is not as good as having a good Rebbe. But if its a bad one, one must seek out other options.
    The psak on using soap (rav Obadiah yosef ztl) is a good example. Never heard that before.

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  16. he smoked as well for many years, but then gave up.

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  17. Also Rav soloveitchik brings the gemara about where of the animal's neck to shecht. The answer is, it doesn't matter, just expound and be rewarded!

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  18. Do my questions not deserve an answer and deserve to be dismissed if they fail to "refute anything?"

    If that's the case, then please in the future just assume none of my questions are *attempting* to refute anything. Then maybe my questions will get addressed like any others? Don't be so focused on motives - the question is genuine.

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  19. This kind of observation, again, is not definitive. Many people observed rabbi Akiva identify bar kochba as moshiach. They also followed him into war. They also got slaughtered. They also got decimated. They also saw bar kusiva get killed. One tanna said "Akiva, grass will grow from your face, and moshiach still won't come."

    So I don't see how this kind of shimush helps in doing the right thing. It doesn't tell us what is Halacha, what is wrong.

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  20. your conclusion doesn't follow from your evidence. how do you know it was not the right thing?

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  21. The other sages didn't agree. So if you observed them, it would lead to another conclusion.

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  22. there is no requirement to follow everybody!

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  23. OK fine, so I'll follow RSK and Reb Nota. Shimush. How do you like that?

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  24. great idea! sounds like the problem of zakein mamre or perhaps Korach

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  25. You just said " there is no requirement to follow everybody"

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  26. and therefore we see that there are preconditions to accept anybody even the Gadol haDor

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  27. Which are they, and what is your source?

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  28. we see from your answers that your premise is at best shaky, and at worst, false.

    Every question I pose to you, you rely on texts and learnign rather than shimush. Hence, your proposition in this post is not a very good one.

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  29. the basis for my hypothesis is the gemora which you have been ignoring

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