New post here, let's start with a fresh look at things. Halacha cannot deal with every possible case of deviant behavior, as humans have an infinite capacity to weasel around things. The Torah is an educational book, that teaches us how to behave. Simply acting cruel because one can, and claiming that halacha supports that behavior is not what the Torah wants from a person. Take the case where Yaakov gave simanim to Rachel. It is true, he wanted Rachel, and Rachel wanted him. Only the rammai Lavan wanted him to take Leah. They knew he may pull shtick, so they devised a code. But in the end, when Rachel saw that Leah's feelings would be hurt, she voluntarily gave her the code, and gave up her own rights. This lifnim meshuras hadin is what makes a Jew a Jew. Not one who goes around throwing a tantrum that halacha says I am right. Rather one who asks what can I do for somebody else. Halacha may say that a wife is obligated to cook for her husband. But what if a wife needs to work long and hard at a job a long distance away to make ends meet, and comes home exhausted. A husband can still throw a tantrum and insist his wife cook him a fresh meal, and claim he is a tzadik for demanding halachic observance in his home. But he is actually a sorry excuse for a human being.
So, saying a husband has a right to withhold a get because he can, and defending that type of behavior is totally not what the Torah wants a person to be. You can be totally right, halachically, but be a despicable person.The Torah expected people to do the kind thing.
Without knowing any details of the people in this case, never having met any of them, one can wonder, why can't the custody issue be settled in a beis din, and then a get given? What has been this long delay? Now, if the wife is refusing to show up in a beis din, then nobody would be creating special heterim. They would simply tell her, if you want a get, you need to go to beis din and get the case adjudicated. Certainly, coming from a frum home, she would know that, and having a big Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva as an advisor, she would be told that. So it seems that there is some reason why such a process has not been able to be concluded that is not from her side. And unless one thinks that a major Rosh yeshiva like Reb Shmuel is totally crazy, one could trust him that he is not advising her how to avoid beis din. He must have concluded that the other side is being totally unreasonable in whatever demands are being made.
And the fact that a husband would withhold a get for 5 or so years, even if he had some halachic standing, is a very major tip-off that he could takeh well have a personality disorder. No kind person would act that way, just as a kind person would not demand that an exhausted wife cook him a meal. It is understandable why a wife married to such a man would seek a way out. And if he was always this way, it could be grounds for a mekach taus. Halacha should never be a fig leaf for cruel behavior. A Jew is always expected to act in a warm, ehrlich and menschlach manner. Clearly, Reb Shmuel felt that this husband is not meeting those standards, and unusual measures are called for.
That's the spirit Reb Shlomo. Say it and keep saying it. I hope the other 'gedolim' are paying attention and will do the same. Publicize your opposition. They all had no problem ganging up on Slifkin and every other small-timer. Now that there's a real problem, they seem to have lost their pens.
The Kaminetskys have claimed that he withdrew his letter. There was nothing official but some people started to believe the nonsense so Rav Miller felt it necessary to publicly deny the claims
Oh you got it! You cracked the code! Because he hasn't given a get after his wife ran away with his daughter, staged protests outside his work ss, paid goons to beat him up, set him up with ridiculous custody hours, got him banned from every shul in his community, besmirched his reputation, and cheated on him to boot. All while the beis din that she herself also signed with to adjudicate the din Torah was never mechayev him to give a get.
The fact that the Kamenetskys are playing these games with who said what about the psak just confirms what I wrote previously: nothing in this case will move forward until someone big can take the bold and courageous step of moving past the psak to the person behind it, and say publicly that Shalom is not a bar samcha etc.
Barry said "Now, if the wife is refusing to show up in a beis din, then nobody would be creating special heterim."
Barry please read the article from five years ago http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/12/hundreds-rally-for-chained-woman-while-others-support-husband-345.html
"Currently, the Epstein-Friedman case remains open but dormant, as "neither party has approached" the Baltimore beit din, requesting that it reconvene, according to Rabbi Mordechai Shuchatowitz, a rabbi on the court.
"Right now," he said, "the ball is in [Epstein's] court" because, as the party seeking the get, she is responsible for reinitiating proceedings."
Maybe you can explain why Tamar did not go to Bais Din to receive a Get? Better yet why don't you ask Reb Shmuel?
Clearly they wouldn't create a special heter (that isn't available to other women - yet) for a women who wouldn't show up to Bais Din ?
But again she has a "big Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva as an advisor" so it's probably the Baltimore Bais Din that both parties signed a shtar biruin with and that heard from both sides are the ones misinformed.
Perhaps your questions should be directed to the Baltimore Bais Din, which could have ordered him to give the get had it felt he was being unreasonable. They never did that.
But you are missing the larger point here. Once the cat is let out of the bag, there's no way to get it back in. The particular details of the Tamar case are not really the point, and they are really none of anyone's business except for the bais din with jurisdiction (Baltimore, in this case). If this halachically incorrect ruling is allowed to stand, every time a husband looks at his wife cross-eyed there'll be some left wing rabbi who will say that he's got a personality disorder and *poof* the marriage is gone. One thing's for sure, my wife could certainly get me diagnosed with something or other if she had the inclination, and I assume yours could too.
I feel terrible for any lady who is stuck in a marriage. I really do. I have counseled a number of men over the years to stop fighting and just give the get. They didn't always listen to me, and that's their right. I've been disgusted by the behavior of men (and of women) even though they had every halachic right to keep fighting. But divorce is a din Torah, and you can't force someone to give up their halachic rights in a din Torah. You can't simply reject halacha because you don't think it makes sense in your view of mentchlichkeit!
Here's a question for you. What about this sexist rule that a man is koneh a woman? This outdated concept can't be correct, and is hurtful and insulting to women. I think we should change the rule so that there's a double ring ceremony.
You can also be cruel like Tamar AND go against halacha. ....a lot of details on this blog, why......although pretty tired of them ..... (maybe I'll elaborate later on this post)
As far as Rochel giving simanim to her sister, I have difficulty grappling with that concept, since it was on the cheshbon of Yaakov. .....starkly similar to people taking sides in a matrimonial dispute......
One thing is for sure and that we all agree on, that the issur of eishes ish is KORES. Therefore for anyone to dare to take upon themselves the notion that they will change the torah in light of clear opposition from the rabbinic masses, has to either be way beyond in torah knowledge than the rest or be simply wicked. We all know that the following are talmidei chachamim who know how to learn: Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shlomo miller, Rav Feldman, Rav Gestetner,Rav Shternbuch etc.. Therefore for the kaminetskys to "break the ranks" in torah falls into " Kol Hamegale ponim Batorah"...................... I await for their repentance soon and if not we must uproot them from our midst. I also am upset WHY AGUDAS YISROEL STILL HAS NOT CONDEMNED THEM?
I would not use the word nothing. Quite a bit has indeed been accomplished. However, to bring this sorry saga to a conclusion may indeed require clearly going after the people themselves. However, the actual adulterers do have to be held responsible as well - which is what Rav Miller is doing.
שלמה מילר מה שחזרתי ממכתבי הראשון, הנני חוזר מחזירתי, האמת אגיד שלא מדברים ממני כמה ימים וזה לא טוב, לכן מוכרח אני עוד מכתב כדי שהרב איידנסון יפרסמו, ובזה ידעו שאני חי וקים, ופוסקם של בני הישיבה באמריקה וקנדה
* "So, saying a husband has a right to withhold a get because he can". *
You are wrong and off base. Aron is WITHOLDING nothing. It is protocol just like that the instrument must be in writing etc. It is the last thing in course of a GET and after ALL & EVERYTHING has been settled.
Furthermore, all Aron asked for is his G-D given right to love and cherish his own flesh and blood in shepping nachas of his only daughter, just the same way the Mother wants. Why don't you ask why the Mother should be so cruel not letting him see her? Ze nehene veze lo choser - ROSHO. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander, isn't it? Aron has not asked anything lifnim mishuras haDin. It is Human nature, and rightfully so. You are totally Blind in not seeing it so, not humanely, not mentshlichkeit-wise, not according to the Law of dinei Demalchusse, and Certainly not according to Torah haKdosha. How could YOU be so cruel? Have you no feelings?
Furthermore, I don't give a hoot how exhausted anybody is, but to beat up a Father in front of his child is not only unbecoming, but an achzar shebeachzorim would not do such. It's a two way street, and all the vigilantes working above the LAW will and have been brought to Justice sooner or later. Nekot klall zu beyodcho, man desani aloch, lechavrei lo sa'avid. Veze kol haTorah kula al regel achas. hevanta? Sorry Pal, but you need to have your head examined.
The Feminists have hit bottom, and the tide is turning against them. Enough of screaming AGUNAHHHH... enough of screaming Eishes Potifarrrr.... This plague oloh al kol gedoisov and the POSKEI UGDEOILEI HADOR have spoken, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Soon the whole Torah haKdosha will turn into k'even she'ein lo hofchin, and HUTRAH KOL HARTSUAH. SINAI has been Kofo aleihem har keGIGIS. It is a MEKACH TAUS, it is not fair to withold freedom of ones life! Kiymu sovru veKiblu was only al Tnay, if you don't believe me, just ask the T's and the K's. We thought we can take it, but it's much to burdensome. You can even ask ten Goyim if they cal live with such. Ma lonu ultsoro hazos, why can't a Kohen marry a grusho, that's cruel? All needs to be done, just take away his SIMONIM, aus Kohen and Wallah, no Issur, no kohen, no nothing. Make a Bracha Baruch Matir Assurim, it's that simple.Tomorrow you will say, oh G-d, why don't you chose some other nation for a change. At the rate you are going, ask for a heter an exchange of Aus Yisrael, R'L'
At the time your linked article was written, the case had been going on for 2 years, before ORA got involved. So, you are saying that during those 2 years, and during the 5 years after, it never occurred to Reb Shmuel to maybe suggest to her that if she wants a get, it might be a good idea to go to a beis din, where such a document can be obtained???
One might think Reb Shmuel was unwell CV, if he couldn't remember such a basic procedure. But I saw him at a chasuna 2 weeks ago, and my wife and I spoke to him (not about this), because he knows some of her relatives from way back, and he was totally sharp, BH.
Barry I think most people are scratching their heads, you would have to ask Reb Shmuel. Once your speaking to him you may also want to ask why he had written at least 3 letters (which have been posted on this blog) in which he has said that AF was "mechyuv according to halacha to give Tamar Epstein a get" while there is and never was any such a psak from a Bais Din.
I think you are finally starting to see why so many people are so upset about the involvement not just in the fake heter but the involvement of the Kaminetsky's from day 1.
Nonsense. The Philly guys are claiming everyone either didn't understand or was chozer. The only one idiotic enough to respond was Rabbi Miller. Which Rav, Posek, Godol ever responded to unconfirmed rumors that they had changed their minds? This is an everyday occurrence by people whose opinions matter. Obviously Rabbi Miller doesn't count amongst those who matter. In BMG they were saying this morning that it's a very for attention by an attention starved individual. I'm afraid they are right!
As far as being koneh, I don't think women mind. They actually like the idea of being picked out for their maylos and swooped up by a dashing choson. More than a few women have told me that their favorite part of any wedding is the badeken, where the choson comes marching in and approaches his kallah, as if to say she is the one I have chosen from all the rest. It makes her feel like a queen. Most men think of that as a minor part of the whole simcha. Men and women are different.
But when it comes to feeling chained into a marriage that is not working, I don't think they enjoy that any more than a man would.
You may be referring to feminists who object to the abstract concept. I am talking about women in general. They like being pursued and chosen and given beautiful gifts such as flowers and jewelry and rings which show their choson's desire for them. They proudly show these gifts to their friends. Even in the nonhalachic or non-Jewish world, the same holds true. Men pursue women with gifts and tokens of appreciation to show women they are genuinely interested in them. Women like to feel like that they are a valuable treasure in a man's eyes, that he will work very hard to acquire, because they are special. This is not because halacha says so, it is human nature in all cultures.
If he wasn't well, then it definitely would be an excuse, but for someone who is, he is expected of to do what he needs to do and for what he needs to take responsibility of.
The actual adulterers will evidently pay big time, if they are not taking birth control, I think it's not exactly like pushing a mountain, where even there, ain dovor ho'omaid bofnai horotzon, but like the Roman legion digging and digging under a wall ,while simultaneously, they are uaing makeshift shields put together on top of their heads and backs as they are beings pelted by heavy rocks from above ......and at the end, persevere. ...
Rabbosai, this is the second sign in my car window and I am hoping that I can soon remove it. ......that is when this saga comes to an end. ...so if you see me in my Toyota Corolla, waive and call out, POLITICALLY INCORRECT. This is a personal invitation for you all to put this and other relevant letters in your car window (the house and store windows will do too).....
Thinking it over since I last replied: It is amazing how contemporary society is so supportive of organizations like ORA and JOFA to *automatically* (and mindlessly) benefit one party at the expense of an other.....
Barry, at the end of the day the bottom line is that what you are attempting to do is to substitute your notion of morality and proper ethical behavior in lieu of what the Torah, Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch tell us is proper halacha.
Wow, so we have another rabbi coming out against the hetter, so far we have miller and miller and miller and miller, and then if u ad miller u have a minyan Eidenshon and miller get a life, the war has been lost, back to the kosher switch, and other important issues
Ah, welcome back from vacation! It's really light, the sun is really shining here, let your pupils dilate! Nathan (and readers), we ain't got to look to far, if RNG can't rescind his heter, THEY SURELY ARE NOT BACKING DOWN ON WHAT THEY SIGNED. And B'Ezraso the upholders of the banner of Torah will victor as history has always shone...
Hey Nathan of Gaza your name befits you as all in Gaza distort the truth. Reb Vachtfogel Rav Green Reb Chaim Kanivesky Rav Nissin Korelitz Rav silman the Gaavad Reb Weiss Reb Aron Feldman Reb Moshe Shternbuch Rav Vosner all came out against this ridiculous heter. It's not Miller Miller Miller. All the Giants of the Torah world are against them and have signed letters and openly decried the terrible distortion of Halacha.
Dear Rabbi Politically Incorrect, freeing a woman does not hurt the man. They can still resolve any claims in beis din or court. It only makes her equal to the man. In any din torah between men, they both start on equal footing, not with one chained at the mercy of the other, which he can use as leverage, if he doesn't like the psak.
Look, marriage is supposed to be a happy arrangement between people, If she is so upset that she leaves, are you benefitting in any way by preventing her from marrying someone else? She still won't come back.
I doubt there's ever been a divorce where there wasn't great dissatisfaction regarding custody or alimony or divison of property or whatever else. People don't get divorced for the enjoyment. Yet, they enable each other to put it behind them and move on.
BTW, is the husband doing himself any favor?. Would any other woman risk marrying him, knowing she may be stuck for life if something goes wrong?
How's your friend Ashdodi the translator. Does he still have what to translate or Tomu kol haMichtovim? Are the doors of the Yeshiva still open? BTW, halonu o letsorenu ata? I can meet you in your cholent kishka restaurant, and drink a couple of Miller's or Molsons, Michelob if you so prefer and try to ketchup upon the latest Shamta's and current events. Did RNG yet inform the couple of his MTaus or waiting ur SKjr to OK it. Whatsup @ Binyanei haUmah, HUH?
Barry, at the risk of legitimizing this kind of "I wish halacha followed my world view" thinking, there is NO equal footing in court. Everything is skewed toward the woman. And every penny a woman gets in court that she would not have gotten in BD amounts to stolen money. I have been involved personally with at least three cases where the man gave the get, with the understanding that everything would continue to be worked out in BD, and immediately after receiving the get, the woman ran to court with no hetter whatsoever. This kind of behavior is aided and abetted by the "women's rabbis" who will do kol dovor ossur to "win" for their ladies. They don't care that this could even bring the validity of the get into question, because the get was only given with the understanding that everyone would continue playing by the rules and not run to court.
When you ask a man to give a get before everything is settled, you are asking him to hamstring himself, not to even the playing field. And it's pretty much an issue of lifnei eever because it encourages the women to violate halacha as soon as the get is given.
On your point about whether the husband is doing himself any favor - I know numerous cases where a husband behaved deplorably during messy divorces, and they still get snapped up by women in the secondary shidduch market. There are nebach a million wonderful "older" women out there and only a handful of decent guys. You don't need to worry about finding the men shidduchim.
This scandel proves the imense forsight of גדולי ישראל of the previous generation who were vehemently opposed to reb moshes psakim, and even more opposed to putting them in the public domain
Or we could take the view that those involved (Shalom K in particular) were never gedolim in the first place. As far as those to whom Shalom lied, I'm not sure that giving an incorrect psak based on false information is necessarily relevant to the question of Daas Torah.
No, Eddie, on the contrary, it proves that the Torah stands erect even in the face of POLITICAL power and in the face of the times, as socially adversarial as they may be. ...
Nathan, as difficult as it is for me to admit you're right, i have to raise my hands in surrender. חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם שמא מתוכם ילמדו לשקר has never been more applicable. אגרות משה should, quite obviously, never have been printed in its current format. The blame has to be pinned on Reb Moshe's kids (וד"ל). אוי לנו שכך עלתה בימינו
If the Torah gave him the leverage, then perhaps the Torah felt he should have it; )
Furthermore, if that what the Torah decreed then it must be the just way and darchai Noam - which in the same vein, would put someone who has mercy on a woman (or man) who is bound by the "cruel" laws of the Torah, an apikores.
Barry, I was thinking about what you said in day prior to this post from Rav Soloveitchik, that the Halacha is the floor of morality, not the ceilin: permit me to interject here, Barry, that the Halacha is the *blueprint* of morality and that essentially, Halacha does not stop by the floor. The ceiling, the higher code of ethics, must follow the floor's guidelines. For one thing, it must *cover* for it and not be remotely off.....here to, the Torah is here for both genders, they are both one. And even if they G-d Forbid, separate, it would be compulsory and fundamental to realize that a cardinal tenet of the Torah is not to favor one individual or party at the expense of an other. Yes indeed,
I will add only one more example to be used as MY binyan av: I had a friend who his wife ran out on him with the children, pressured him for a get and immediately served him with a NY order of protection. I was told that Rav Menashe Klein told him, "Fool, your only ammunition that you had, you threw away."
mmm.... don't like scrambled eggs. Beitsim meturafot, doesn't sound to much kosher to me. Why would a frum yeshiva serve that? Even if it's outside of the Yeshiva? Do you lisp? Are you from shevet Binyomin? Can't you say ssss....thhhh...ibolet. Maybe you can find some Ssss...erapist that will give you a Heter out'thide of the law & SA. There are th'ome rabiners that will find you a heter for big bucks. BTW, who beat up those scrambled eggs, and why? I am afraid that these beatings are outlawed by dina demalchussei. Someone just got 8 years for that. In any case, do you drink Miller's or prefer Molson's Canadian. Have a great Chulent!
that must be rather disappointing for some...
ReplyDeleteNew post here, let's start with a fresh look at things. Halacha cannot deal with every possible case of deviant behavior, as humans have an infinite capacity to weasel around things. The Torah is an educational book, that teaches us how to behave. Simply acting cruel because one can, and claiming that halacha supports that behavior is not what the Torah wants from a person. Take the case where Yaakov gave simanim to Rachel. It is true, he wanted Rachel, and Rachel wanted him. Only the rammai Lavan wanted him to take Leah. They knew he may pull shtick, so they devised a code. But in the end, when Rachel saw that Leah's feelings would be hurt, she voluntarily gave her the code, and gave up her own rights. This lifnim meshuras hadin is what makes a Jew a Jew. Not one who goes around throwing a tantrum that halacha says I am right. Rather one who asks what can I do for somebody else. Halacha may say that a wife is obligated to cook for her husband. But what if a wife needs to work long and hard at a job a long distance away to make ends meet, and comes home exhausted. A husband can still throw a tantrum and insist his wife cook him a fresh meal, and claim he is a tzadik for demanding halachic observance in his home. But he is actually a sorry excuse for a human being.
ReplyDeleteSo, saying a husband has a right to withhold a get because he can, and defending that type of behavior is totally not what the Torah wants a person to be. You can be totally right, halachically, but be a despicable person.The Torah expected people to do the kind thing.
Without knowing any details of the people in this case, never having met any of them, one can wonder, why can't the custody issue be settled in a beis din, and then a get given? What has been this long delay? Now, if the wife is refusing to show up in a beis din, then nobody would be creating special heterim. They would simply tell her, if you want a get, you need to go to beis din and get the case adjudicated. Certainly, coming from a frum home, she would know that, and having a big Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva as an advisor, she would be told that. So it seems that there is some reason why such a process has not been able to be concluded that is not from her side. And unless one thinks that a major Rosh yeshiva like Reb Shmuel is totally crazy, one could trust him that he is not advising her how to avoid beis din. He must have concluded that the other side is being totally unreasonable in whatever demands are being made.
And the fact that a husband would withhold a get for 5 or so years, even if he had some halachic standing, is a very major tip-off that he could takeh well have a personality disorder. No kind person would act that way, just as a kind person would not demand that an exhausted wife cook him a meal. It is understandable why a wife married to such a man would seek a way out. And if he was always this way, it could be grounds for a mekach taus. Halacha should never be a fig leaf for cruel behavior. A Jew is always expected to act in a warm, ehrlich and menschlach manner. Clearly, Reb Shmuel felt that this husband is not meeting those standards, and unusual measures are called for.
That's the spirit Reb Shlomo. Say it and keep saying it.
ReplyDeleteI hope the other 'gedolim' are paying attention and will do the same.
Publicize your opposition.
They all had no problem ganging up on Slifkin and every other small-timer.
Now that there's a real problem, they seem to have lost their pens.
Where had where been any allegations that he withdrew his protest letter? An allegation of a withdrawal wasn't reported here.
ReplyDeleteThe Kaminetskys have claimed that he withdrew his letter. There was nothing official but some people started to believe the nonsense so Rav Miller felt it necessary to publicly deny the claims
ReplyDeleteOh you got it! You cracked the code! Because he hasn't given a get after his wife ran away with his daughter, staged protests outside his work ss, paid goons to beat him up, set him up with ridiculous custody hours, got him banned from every shul in his community, besmirched his reputation, and cheated on him to boot.
ReplyDeleteAll while the beis din that she herself also signed with to adjudicate the din Torah was never mechayev him to give a get.
But you cracked the code. He's the sick one.
Thanks for summing up Emanuel Rackman's mekach taus argument for everyone.
ReplyDeleteyou are correct except...
ReplyDeletethe Rosh Bais Din of the bais din they agreed to go to and heard the case says SHE LEFT BAIS DIN
Rabbi Kaminetsky says SHE DIDN'T LEAVE BAIS DIN , HE DID
so yes, to paraphrase your words
one could trust him that RabbiS Kaminetsky IS AND HAS BEEN advising her how to avoid beis din..
That is and has been the problem for 6 years.
The fact that the Kamenetskys are playing these games with who said what about the psak just confirms what I wrote previously: nothing in this case will move forward until someone big can take the bold and courageous step of moving past the psak to the person behind it, and say publicly that Shalom is not a bar samcha etc.
ReplyDeleteBarry said "Now, if the wife is refusing to show up in a beis din, then nobody would be creating special heterim."
ReplyDeleteBarry please read the article from five years ago http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/12/hundreds-rally-for-chained-woman-while-others-support-husband-345.html
"Currently, the Epstein-Friedman case remains open but dormant, as "neither party has approached" the Baltimore beit din, requesting that it reconvene, according to Rabbi Mordechai Shuchatowitz, a rabbi on the court.
"Right now," he said, "the ball is in [Epstein's] court" because, as the party seeking the get, she is responsible for reinitiating proceedings."
Maybe you can explain why Tamar did not go to Bais Din to receive a Get? Better yet why don't you ask Reb Shmuel?
Clearly they wouldn't create a special heter (that isn't available to other women - yet) for a women who wouldn't show up to Bais Din ?
But again she has a "big Chareidi Rosh Yeshiva as an advisor" so it's probably the Baltimore Bais Din that both parties signed a shtar biruin with and that heard from both sides are the ones misinformed.
Perhaps your questions should be directed to the Baltimore Bais Din, which could have ordered him to give the get had it felt he was being unreasonable. They never did that.
ReplyDeleteBut you are missing the larger point here. Once the cat is let out of the bag, there's no way to get it back in. The particular details of the Tamar case are not really the point, and they are really none of anyone's business except for the bais din with jurisdiction (Baltimore, in this case). If this halachically incorrect ruling is allowed to stand, every time a husband looks at his wife cross-eyed there'll be some left wing rabbi who will say that he's got a personality disorder and *poof* the marriage is gone. One thing's for sure, my wife could certainly get me diagnosed with something or other if she had the inclination, and I assume yours could too.
I feel terrible for any lady who is stuck in a marriage. I really do. I have counseled a number of men over the years to stop fighting and just give the get. They didn't always listen to me, and that's their right. I've been disgusted by the behavior of men (and of women) even though they had every halachic right to keep fighting. But divorce is a din Torah, and you can't force someone to give up their halachic rights in a din Torah. You can't simply reject halacha because you don't think it makes sense in your view of mentchlichkeit!
Here's a question for you. What about this sexist rule that a man is koneh a woman? This outdated concept can't be correct, and is hurtful and insulting to women. I think we should change the rule so that there's a double ring ceremony.
You can also be cruel like Tamar AND go against halacha. ....a lot of details on this blog, why......although pretty tired of them
ReplyDelete..... (maybe I'll elaborate later on this post)
As far as Rochel giving simanim to her sister, I have difficulty grappling with that concept, since it was on the cheshbon of Yaakov. .....starkly similar to people taking sides in a matrimonial dispute......
One thing is for sure and that we all agree on, that the issur of eishes ish is KORES. Therefore for anyone to dare to take upon themselves the notion that they will change the torah in light of clear opposition from the rabbinic masses, has to either be way beyond in torah knowledge than the rest or be simply wicked. We all know that the following are talmidei chachamim who know how to learn: Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shlomo miller, Rav Feldman, Rav Gestetner,Rav Shternbuch etc.. Therefore for the kaminetskys to "break the ranks" in torah falls into " Kol Hamegale ponim Batorah"......................
ReplyDeleteI await for their repentance soon and if not we must uproot them from our midst. I also am upset WHY AGUDAS YISROEL STILL HAS NOT CONDEMNED THEM?
I am afraid so, I am afraid so.
ReplyDeleteI would not use the word nothing. Quite a bit has indeed been accomplished. However, to bring this sorry saga to a conclusion may indeed require clearly going after the people themselves. However, the actual adulterers do have to be held responsible as well - which is what Rav Miller is doing.
שלמה מילר
ReplyDeleteמה שחזרתי ממכתבי הראשון, הנני חוזר מחזירתי, האמת אגיד שלא מדברים ממני כמה ימים וזה לא טוב, לכן מוכרח אני עוד מכתב כדי שהרב איידנסון יפרסמו, ובזה ידעו שאני חי וקים, ופוסקם של בני הישיבה באמריקה וקנדה
* "So, saying a husband has a right to withhold a get because he can". *
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong and off base. Aron is WITHOLDING nothing. It is protocol just like that the instrument must be in writing etc. It is the last thing in course of a GET and after ALL & EVERYTHING has been settled.
Furthermore, all Aron asked for is his G-D given right to love and cherish his own flesh and blood in shepping nachas of his only daughter, just the same way the Mother wants. Why don't you ask why the Mother should be so cruel not letting him see her? Ze nehene veze lo choser - ROSHO. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander, isn't it? Aron has not asked anything lifnim mishuras haDin. It is Human nature, and rightfully so. You are totally Blind in not seeing it so, not humanely, not mentshlichkeit-wise, not according to the Law of dinei Demalchusse, and Certainly not according to Torah haKdosha. How could YOU be so cruel? Have you no feelings?
Furthermore, I don't give a hoot how exhausted anybody is, but to beat up a Father in front of his child is not only unbecoming, but an achzar shebeachzorim would not do such. It's a two way street, and all the vigilantes working above the LAW will and have been brought to Justice sooner or later. Nekot klall zu beyodcho, man desani aloch, lechavrei lo sa'avid. Veze kol haTorah kula al regel achas. hevanta? Sorry Pal, but you need to have your head examined.
The Feminists have hit bottom, and the tide is turning against them. Enough of screaming AGUNAHHHH... enough of screaming Eishes Potifarrrr.... This plague oloh al kol gedoisov and the POSKEI UGDEOILEI HADOR have spoken, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Soon the whole Torah haKdosha will turn into k'even she'ein lo hofchin, and HUTRAH KOL HARTSUAH. SINAI has been Kofo aleihem har keGIGIS. It is a MEKACH TAUS, it is not fair to withold freedom of ones life! Kiymu sovru veKiblu was only al Tnay, if you don't believe me, just ask the T's and the K's. We thought we can take it, but it's much to burdensome. You can even ask ten Goyim if they cal live with such. Ma lonu ultsoro hazos, why can't a Kohen marry a grusho, that's cruel? All needs to be done, just take away his SIMONIM, aus Kohen and Wallah, no Issur, no kohen, no nothing. Make a Bracha Baruch Matir Assurim, it's that simple.Tomorrow you will say, oh G-d, why don't you chose some other nation for a change. At the rate you are going, ask for a heter an exchange of Aus Yisrael, R'L'
At the time your linked article was written, the case had been going on for 2 years, before ORA got involved. So, you are saying that during those 2 years, and during the 5 years after, it never occurred to Reb Shmuel to maybe suggest to her that if she wants a get, it might be a good idea to go to a beis din, where such a document can be obtained???
ReplyDeleteOne might think Reb Shmuel was unwell CV, if he couldn't remember such a basic procedure. But I saw him at a chasuna 2 weeks ago, and my wife and I spoke to him (not about this), because he knows some of her relatives from way back, and he was totally sharp, BH.
So, I am scratching my head. Please enlighten.
Barry I think most people are scratching their heads, you would have to ask Reb Shmuel. Once your speaking to him you may also want to ask why he had written at least 3 letters (which have been posted on this blog) in which he has said that AF was "mechyuv according to halacha to give Tamar Epstein a get" while there is and never was any such a psak from a Bais Din.
ReplyDeleteI think you are finally starting to see why so many people are so upset about the involvement not just in the fake heter but the involvement of the Kaminetsky's from day 1.
Nonsense. The Philly guys are claiming everyone either didn't understand or was chozer. The only one idiotic enough to respond was Rabbi Miller. Which Rav, Posek, Godol ever responded to unconfirmed rumors that they had changed their minds? This is an everyday occurrence by people whose opinions matter. Obviously Rabbi Miller doesn't count amongst those who matter.
ReplyDeleteIn BMG they were saying this morning that it's a very for attention by an attention starved individual. I'm afraid they are right!
As far as being koneh, I don't think women mind. They actually like the idea of being picked out for their maylos and swooped up by a dashing choson. More than a few women have told me that their favorite part of any wedding is the badeken, where the choson comes marching in and approaches his kallah, as if to say she is the one I have chosen from all the rest. It makes her feel like a queen. Most men think of that as a minor part of the whole simcha. Men and women are different.
ReplyDeleteBut when it comes to feeling chained into a marriage that is not working, I don't think they enjoy that any more than a man would.
The documents posted here seem to say they both left beis din.
ReplyDeleteI have gotten the opposite reaction. Women are very upset that they are being acquired like a cow or slave
ReplyDeleteYou may be referring to feminists who object to the abstract concept. I am talking about women in general. They like being pursued and chosen and given beautiful gifts such as flowers and jewelry and rings which show their choson's desire for them. They proudly show these gifts to their friends. Even in the nonhalachic or non-Jewish world, the same holds true. Men pursue women with gifts and tokens of appreciation to show women they are genuinely interested in them. Women like to feel like that they are a valuable treasure in a man's eyes, that he will work very hard to acquire, because they are special. This is not because halacha says so, it is human nature in all cultures.
ReplyDeleteIf he wasn't well, then it definitely would be an excuse, but for someone who is, he is expected of to do what he needs to do and for what he needs to take responsibility of.
ReplyDeleteThat's a misperception
ReplyDeleteBarry, it's a good question why he didn't tell her to go BACK to Bais Din when the Baltimore Bais Din held jurisdiction. .....pardon my demeanor. ..
ReplyDeleteThe actual adulterers will evidently pay big time, if they are not taking birth control, I think it's not exactly like pushing a mountain, where even there, ain dovor ho'omaid bofnai horotzon, but like the Roman legion digging and digging under a wall ,while simultaneously, they are uaing makeshift shields put together on top of their heads and backs as they are beings pelted by heavy rocks from above ......and at the end, persevere. ...
ReplyDeleteEspecially for a perutah.....
ReplyDeleteRabbosai, this is the second sign in my car window and I am hoping that I can soon remove it. ......that is when this saga comes to an end. ...so if you see me in my Toyota Corolla, waive and call out, POLITICALLY INCORRECT. This is a personal invitation for you all to put this and other relevant letters in your car window (the house and store windows will do too).....
ReplyDeleteThinking it over since I last replied:
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing how contemporary society is so supportive of organizations like ORA and JOFA to *automatically* (and mindlessly) benefit one party at the expense of an other.....
Barry, at the end of the day the bottom line is that what you are attempting to do is to substitute your notion of morality and proper ethical behavior in lieu of what the Torah, Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch tell us is proper halacha.
ReplyDeleteWow, so we have another rabbi coming out against the hetter, so far we have miller and miller and miller and miller, and then if u ad miller u have a minyan
ReplyDeleteEidenshon and miller get a life, the war has been lost, back to the kosher switch, and other important issues
so you are showing your true colors - which we all hoped you had lost - but here you are again
ReplyDeleteAh, welcome back from vacation! It's really light, the sun is really shining here, let your pupils dilate! Nathan (and readers), we ain't got to look to far, if RNG can't rescind his heter, THEY SURELY ARE NOT BACKING DOWN ON WHAT THEY SIGNED. And B'Ezraso the upholders of the banner of Torah will victor as history has always shone...
ReplyDelete...
In his defense - he perceives it that way. Hence the women he speaks to don't appreciate it. Get it?
ReplyDeleteHey Nathan of Gaza your name befits you as all in Gaza distort the truth. Reb Vachtfogel Rav Green Reb Chaim Kanivesky Rav Nissin Korelitz Rav silman the Gaavad Reb Weiss Reb Aron Feldman Reb Moshe Shternbuch Rav Vosner all came out against this ridiculous heter. It's not Miller Miller Miller. All the Giants of the Torah world are against them and have signed letters and openly decried the terrible distortion of Halacha.
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi Politically Incorrect, freeing a woman does not hurt the man. They can still resolve any claims in beis din or court. It only makes her equal to the man. In any din torah between men, they both start on equal footing, not with one chained at the mercy of the other, which he can use as leverage, if he doesn't like the psak.
ReplyDeleteLook, marriage is supposed to be a happy arrangement between people, If she is so upset that she leaves, are you benefitting in any way by preventing her from marrying someone else? She still won't come back.
I doubt there's ever been a divorce where there wasn't great dissatisfaction regarding custody or alimony or divison of property or whatever else. People don't get divorced for the enjoyment. Yet, they enable each other to put it behind them and move on.
BTW, is the husband doing himself any favor?. Would any other woman risk marrying him, knowing she may be stuck for life if something goes wrong?
How's
ReplyDeleteyour friend Ashdodi the translator. Does he still have what to translate or Tomu
kol haMichtovim? Are the doors of the Yeshiva still open? BTW, halonu o
letsorenu ata? I can meet you in your cholent kishka restaurant, and drink a
couple of Miller's or Molsons, Michelob if you so prefer and try to ketchup upon
the latest Shamta's and current events. Did RNG yet inform the couple of his
MTaus or waiting ur SKjr to OK it. Whatsup @ Binyanei haUmah, HUH?
Barry, at the risk of legitimizing this kind of "I wish halacha followed my world view" thinking, there is NO equal footing in court. Everything is skewed toward the woman. And every penny a woman gets in court that she would not have gotten in BD amounts to stolen money. I have been involved personally with at least three cases where the man gave the get, with the understanding that everything would continue to be worked out in BD, and immediately after receiving the get, the woman ran to court with no hetter whatsoever. This kind of behavior is aided and abetted by the "women's rabbis" who will do kol dovor ossur to "win" for their ladies. They don't care that this could even bring the validity of the get into question, because the get was only given with the understanding that everyone would continue playing by the rules and not run to court.
ReplyDeleteWhen you ask a man to give a get before everything is settled, you are asking him to hamstring himself, not to even the playing field. And it's pretty much an issue of lifnei eever because it encourages the women to violate halacha as soon as the get is given.
On your point about whether the husband is doing himself any favor - I know numerous cases where a husband behaved deplorably during messy divorces, and they still get snapped up by women in the secondary shidduch market. There are nebach a million wonderful "older" women out there and only a handful of decent guys. You don't need to worry about finding the men shidduchim.
Lastly, is Hillel your brother?
Meet me leil shishi at hadar geulah tomorrow night I will be wearing a grey hoddie , codeword is diet cucumber salad
ReplyDeleteAs usual rabbi eidenson u only know 2 colors, black and white, in the true tradition of American potsenflots
ReplyDeletedoes this whole scandal prove the end of Daas Torah? ie. even a Gadol with supposedly Daas Torah can make mistakes or worse?
ReplyDeleteThis scandel proves the imense forsight of גדולי ישראל of the previous generation who were vehemently opposed to reb moshes psakim, and even more opposed to putting them in the public domain
ReplyDeleteNope!
ReplyDeleteOr we could take the view that those involved (Shalom K in particular) were never gedolim in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAs far as those to whom Shalom lied, I'm not sure that giving an incorrect psak based on false information is necessarily relevant to the question of Daas Torah.
No, Eddie, on the contrary, it proves that the Torah stands erect even in the face of POLITICAL power and in the face of the times, as socially adversarial as they may be. ...
ReplyDeleteYep!!!!!
ReplyDeleteNathan, as difficult as it is for me to admit you're right, i have to raise my hands in surrender. חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם שמא מתוכם ילמדו לשקר has never been more applicable. אגרות משה should, quite obviously, never have been printed in its current format. The blame has to be pinned on Reb Moshe's kids (וד"ל).
ReplyDeleteאוי לנו שכך עלתה בימינו
Cn meet u in front of Miller's Kollel, codeword SSiboleth.
ReplyDeleteoreo attire, no grey, no hood.
Actually, they threw up ladders barreling up, while being poured hot tar from above.
ReplyDeleteReb Moshe was plenty responsible on his own, although his grandson mordy tendler egged him on,
ReplyDeleteAsdodi will be with me at the cholent place
ReplyDeleteSorry I can't leave nys
ReplyDeleteBarry, freeing a woman SHOULD NOT hurt a man, but freeing a lion from its cage does...
ReplyDeleteit only makes her equal to him.....definitely not in secular court and surprisingly - most likely not in Bais Din, since most of them are feminist
A lot more to say. Gotta go now
If the Torah gave him the leverage, then perhaps the Torah felt he should have it; )
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, if that what the Torah decreed then it must be the just way and darchai Noam - which in the same vein, would put someone who has mercy on a woman (or man) who is bound by the "cruel" laws of the Torah, an apikores.
Adaraba, yelamdainu Rabbeinu.
ReplyDelete....and tell me how you make out with the Gaza character. ......
Barry, I was thinking about what you said in day prior to this post from Rav Soloveitchik, that the Halacha is the floor of morality, not the ceilin: permit me to interject here, Barry, that the Halacha is the *blueprint* of morality and that essentially, Halacha does not stop by the floor. The ceiling, the higher code of ethics, must follow the floor's guidelines. For one thing, it must *cover* for it and not be remotely off.....here to, the Torah is here for both genders, they are both one. And even if they G-d Forbid, separate, it would be compulsory and fundamental to realize that a cardinal tenet of the Torah is not to favor one individual or party at the expense of an other. Yes indeed,
ReplyDeleteSeems like you knew him. .....hey, let me in on it.....
ReplyDeleteI will add only one more example to be used as MY binyan av:
ReplyDeleteI had a friend who his wife ran out on him with the children, pressured him for a get and immediately served him with a NY order of protection. I was told that Rav Menashe Klein told him, "Fool, your only ammunition that you had, you threw away."
I have stated countless times, that "they have NO Daas, And No Torah"...
ReplyDeleteIs that why the hood?
ReplyDeleteRather in Rochester outside the yeshiva, codeword scrambled egg
ReplyDeletemmm.... don't like scrambled eggs. Beitsim meturafot, doesn't sound to much kosher to me. Why would a frum yeshiva serve that? Even if it's outside of the Yeshiva? Do you lisp? Are you from shevet Binyomin? Can't you say ssss....thhhh...ibolet. Maybe you can find some Ssss...erapist that will give you a Heter out'thide of the law & SA. There are th'ome rabiners that will find you a heter for big bucks. BTW, who beat up those scrambled eggs, and why? I am afraid that these beatings are outlawed by dina demalchussei. Someone just got 8 years for that. In any case, do you drink Miller's or prefer Molson's Canadian. Have a great Chulent!
ReplyDelete