Guest post by RaP
Recently there has been some discussion on this blog about the nature of modern-day Litvish ("Lithuanian type") Yeshivos and their rabbinic and lay leaders, the Roshei Yeshiva and the Balebatim (laymen) that support them in America but also in Israel that are the two main centers for these central Torah learning institutions.
Today the Litvish (Lithuanian-type) yeshivas have luxurious air-conditioned buildings, with thousands of students, living in hotel-like dorms, and kitchens serving restaurant-type foods, often spread over a few campuses, with huge teaching and admin staffs, with budgets running in the millions or tens of millions of dollars per year!
But it was not always like that, nor was it what the founders of this system in Lithuania originally had in mind about 200 to 300 years ago!
When Rav Chaim Volozhiner (1749 - 1821) founded the so-called "Mother" of all Litvish Yeshivos in the small town of Volozhin Lithuania, he began with ten Talmidim (students) that he maintained at his own expense. Supposedly, it is said, that his wife even sold her jewelry to contribute to their maintenance.
Very different to the modern-day yeshivas that look and work more like modern corporations with CEOs, COOs, CFOs, CTOs, employing full time staffs of clerical workers, maintenance staff, administrators, highly paid professional fundraisers, and many other types of staff.
Keeping these huge operations running is the primary goal and the mission of its top echelon lay leaders and especially of the top Roshei Yeshiva who spend much of their time talking to or travelling to a variety of millionaires, billionaires, tycoons and all sorts of big wigs, including politicians, lawyers, accountants and all sorts of professionals and entrepreneurs who are seen as the essential resources to keep these vast "Yeshiva Inc" enterprises running and humming.
If a Yeshiva looks "too poor" or slovenly it lacks prestige in the eyes of both potential students and donors and is ignored in favor of the larger Yeshivas that are viewed as types of "Ivy League" colleges that can and do have huge endowments and astronomical budgets to keep up and to impress both donors to give to such a fancy place and have their names plastered on the walls, and parents to send their sons there as a status symbol good for Shidduchim, marriage mates, marriages, future work in either the Jewish or secular world.
Top donors and laypeople (men and women) and top Roshei Yeshiva regard themselves and act like a new type of "aristocracy" with all the airs and mannerisms of rich and powerful and famous and influential people. Like modern-day celebrities that get their photos published and republished, there is a whole genre of Haredi and Yeshivish media that promote and work like "state organs" and "Public Relations agents and agencies" to depict them in the best light as they travel the length and breadth of North America, attend major "conventions" and mass gatherings, go globetrotting and are lionized by the other rich and famous.
Modern Litvish Yeshivas have become mega status symbols and networking centers to rival any similar secular educational or even political establishment today.
So it's become all about the money, as in "money makes the world go round" that is always at the top of the agenda.
To be continued.
RaP, what's your problem? You have nary a word to say to be דן לכף זכות why the situation might be as it is.
ReplyDeleteI'm waiting for the next shoe to drop. That, of course, would be the
Chaim Berlin angle, which you have an axe to grind with, and never miss an opportunity to bring in to the discussion...
Why don't you put your personal issues on the table, instead of couching
them in the guise of sociological/historical perspectives? Is this an outgrowth of
your college education, which you received in addition to attending
Chaim Berlin?
Nothing personal, but do you yourself live a lifestyle like people did in R' Chaim Volozhiner's days? Why do expect others to live like he did?
When times change, the strategy needs to change. If the strategy costs money to implement, so be it. That's why we have תומכי תורה.
This idea of uplifting the physical standards of yeshivos was already implemented by R' Meir Shapiro, who saw the need to build an impressive yeshiva building in Lublin to uplift the downtrodden honor of Torah students. Students in Slabodka were encouraged to focus on גדלות האדם, which served to counteract the sneering attitude of the masses to yeshiva people. Yeshivas R' Yitzchak Elchanan was also founded along the lines of כבוד התורה, which included an attractive physical plant, and paying Torah scholars good salaries.
In yesterday's generation, how many parents refused to send their children to yeshivos and Beis Yaakov, due to the run down conditions they ran their institutions? (I know several people whose were sent to public school for this reason). The same issue is being played out today in out of town communities, where the local Torah school has to compete with the nice physical conditions of the the public schools (likewise with activities, trips, etc.). How many hundreds of thousands of Jewish souls were lost to Judaism, because their parents refused to send them to poor (and poorly run) Torah schools?
Do you blame the yeshivos for serving tasty food to their students? Are they merely supposed to serve the proverbial "bread and salt"? Why blame the yeshivos? Who taught these students to enjoy good food, and demand the same from their yeshiva? Could it be that this comes from the baal habatish parents who live very comfortably, and have raised their children to expect this lifestyle 24/7, even in yeshiva?
How do you expect a large yeshiva to run? By itself? Nothing is good for
you. If a yeshiva is run professionally, then it's no good for you. If
it's run in a "schleppy" manner you'll be there criticizing them for
lack of professionalism.
If you don't want to contribute, that's your own personal decision. But don't deride those who need to solicit these donors.
If you feel that Roshei Yeshiva shouldn't be involved in fundraising,
then maybe you should volunteer your services (since you anyway seem to
have a lot of extra time on your hands) or propose an alternative method
of meeting yeshiva budgets (since you're such a great חכם, smarter than
the ראשי ישיבה that you're deriding).
מאן מלכי רבנן was not formulated in the 20th century. כבוד התורה (which you seem to be lacking) has always been a virtue in כלל ישראל. However historically we've always had problems with ליצנים, like דתן ואבירם and קורח ועדתו, who found fault even with Moshe Rabeinu. Which malcontent(s) are you aligning yourself with?
The yeshivot in lita had 15 - 25 talmidim students tops. Mir and telz were somewhat exceptons, in the 1930s they had 50 - 60 students, cause they took in foreigners, brits, dutch, and (treifeneh) americans.
ReplyDeleteAnd there was an unstable student base, talmidim would leave in the middle of the 'zman' semester period.
To recruit and keep talmidim today, you have to have air conditioned dorms, classes, etc.
You don't realize yeshivot today are private businesses run by RY and their families. (Nothing wrong with that.)
ReplyDeleteWhere did you see that Mir had no more than 60 talmidim? Even in Shanghai they were bigger than that.
ReplyDeleteNo, a yeshiva is not a "private business" it is a place where Torah is taught and transmitted. The Torah belongs to HaShem, not to the Roshei Yeshiva. They may have Zechusim to be the ones to run Yeshivos, but they do not own the final product. Sure, they have turned into mega-businesses. but that does not make it right.
ReplyDeleteThat would be like arguing that the Bais HaMikdosh is the "private business" of the Kohanim, which they could well argue, and in the times towards the end of the Second Bais HaMikdosh they did in fact "buy and sell" the honors, and the people had no say. And look where that all ended! The Bais HaMikdash was burned down, the Kohanim were disbanded, and the people were sent into a 2000 year Golus!
The Yeshivos are given to the Roshei Yeshiva as a public trust, and what is happening now, ironically in the age of freedom of information and with the openness of communications through the Internet, that the people can question the Kohanim-Roshei Yeshiva and ask for an accounting, transparency and accountability, and when a wrong is done and the Kohanim-Roshei Yeshiva are called out on it, they had better do the right thing, or else! Those are the correct lessons to draw.
You know that the way HaShem sets up the world and Klal Yisroel, it is with checks and balances.
Just as in the times before the First Bais HaMikdosh was destroyed as a punishment, there were Nevi'im who called out for corrections, or else!
And just as before the end of the Second Bais HaMikdosh there were the Perushim-Rabbanim-Chachamim, who were the true Jewish sages, who opposed the Tsedukim and the corruption in the Temple service, who warned the people and tried to lead them in the right way.
Likewise in our times, there are huge wealthy Yeshivos with corruption in and around them, and who knows if the Holocaust was not a punishment for some of the ugly Machlokes in pre-1939 Europe already? But Baruch HaShem there are also Rabbonim, Poskim, Batei Din and Dayanim that are not directly connected to those corrupt Yeshivos, as we see in this Tamar case, with Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ opposing what the Kaminetskys, the leaders of the famous Philly Yeshiva and by default of the BMG Lakewood Yeshiva as well, calling them out and telling them they are wrong, and they better fix themselves up, or else.
Thos or the smart conclusions, not the cheap ones about businesses and Shtussim, that just points to the Churban and not to the Geulah we all want!
Now wait a minute. At some point, you need to look beyond the need to modernize, and ask what the 'bottom line' is, no? So, let's grant you that you want good food and a nice facility...to what end? To this one....?
ReplyDelete- Steady diet of anti-secular education
- Steady diet of anti-work and anti baalei batim
- Steady diet of shirking the responsibility to be עוסק בצרכי ציבור בעת סכנה ובעת מלחמה
- Lionizing the bearers of 'Daas Torah', who just happen to be the very people who are doing the lionizing
- And as of recent posts on this blog, crafting ׳פסקי דין׳ (sic!) that are the antithesis of אמת, דין, ושלום
When all the money goes into such 'bottom lines', it's many of us, and not just RaP, that are getting awfully concerned.
I'm glad to see that you agree with me that yeshivos need to be modernized in accordance with the times. I don't see anything in the rest of your comment as having anything to do with RaP's subject of yeshivos "Rags to Riches", and my response to him. You're raising your own issues, which I'm not sure that this blog is the correct place for airing them. As far as I've seen, this blog is not a site for people with an agenda of bashing yeshivos and their curriculum. For that type of talk, you can find other sites to air your grievances. [Hint: Failed Schmattehead, Hoary Harry, Irrational Yeshiva Hater, Paul the Poiker, and other malcontents of their ilk].
ReplyDeleteShanghai wasn't mir. There were a number of yeshivot and chassidus'es and individuals and other groups. (Don't forget, even RAK was in the shanghai predecessor, kobe. He had nothing to do with mir.)5
ReplyDeleteFrom the Yad Vashem site (translated from Hebrew)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yadvashem.org/yv/he/exhibitions/communities/mir/yeshiva.asp
"The golden era of the Yeshiva was between the world wars. About 500 students studied there, mostly from towns in Lithuania and Poland. More educated there about 50 students from America, mainly from the United
States, 40 from Germany, and groups from South Africa, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, England, Romania and Hungary. A few came from Italy, Finland and Australia".
===============
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_yeshiva_%28Belarus%29
"The yeshiva's reputation grew, attracting students not only from throughout Europe, but also from America, South Africa and Australia, and the student body grew to close to 500. By the time World War II broke out there was hardly a rosh yeshiva of the Lithuanian school who had not studied in Mir".
=================
According to the Hebrew Wiki, there were 400 students in the Mir pre-WW2.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8
RaP, where do you get these non-sensical arm chair pseudo-historical, failed attempts at trying to be a modern day sociologists of the yeshiva world come from?
ReplyDeleteYou constantly try to find the broad underlyning and unifying meaning of current day issues, but you end up just saying "fa'enfering" your boich sveras, based off of shoddy diyyukim, which are ultimately due to your lacking any real true insight. I've read your comments for a while, but this one is so far off the wall that I can't tolerate it anymore.
You are the Dick Morris of Yeshiva Politics. Hamayven Yavin.
Please stop being foolish and condescending. Are Yeshivos in the business of building nice facilities? Of serving good foods?
ReplyDeleteFor you to say that Yeshivos have no accountability for the issues I mentioned is גופא the problem. For what purpose are they there, if not to provide a useful דרך החיים and instill their students with אהבת תורה ויראת שמים?
Would you like to reread your first sentence and edit it?
ReplyDeleteI can always rely on RaP to cheer me up on a cold winter's day. It has to be read in "prophecy acceptance mode" though, without the critical and analytical faculties getting in the way...
ReplyDeleteIt's plain and simple. Notwithstanding how other people try to spin it, at the end of the day, yeshivos are non-profit service providers. They cater to a clientele that expects certain levels of comfort, professionalism, and service.
ReplyDeleteAs a consumer, you have a choice as to who's services you wish avail yourself of. Different strokes for different folks. If you don't feel the school's curriculum appeals to you, then you can look for a school that suits your needs. No need to bash other schools!
Same with donors. If the schools agenda doesn't resonate with you, you can give your philanthropy dollars to a place that's on the same page as you.
Your response, given that you seem to be someone who's supporting the yeshiva system, is a great example of how far off the mark the current system is from the ideal.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I note your mean-spiritness. Are all children 'brats' for 'babysitters', or just those of people who don't approve of the current system?
But most important, I marvel at how far your system has fallen from the days when leaders asked questions like, ׳את שור מי לקחתי...ואת מי עשקתי׳. Today, it's a lot more like your position: "Mind your own business...I own the yeshiva." You gotta love it.
Full disclosure: I'm a product of the yeshiva system.
ReplyDeleteYes, mind your own business if you're not a parent at the school or a donor. You don't have horse in the race. (No, I don't run a yeshiva, but I've been around the block a few times).
I agree that the current yeshiva system is far from ideal, (though probably not for the reasons you think so). But given the current state of affairs in Judaism, and the fact that we currently don't have any viable alternative that can be adopted on a wide scale, we need to be pragmatic, and look at the issue objectively.
I will therefore continue to vigorously defend the yeshiva system, warts and all, and will stand up to malcontents who criticize it. You may ask, "why bother?" The answer is, that post's like RaP's one won't change the system one iota. On the downside, this type of sophistry turns people off from Torah Judaism, and the sky is the limit how far off people can go. (For more information, ask the kiruv people out there in trenches). Therefore when people spout garbage, I will try to disinfect the air by countering their nonsense.
My reference to brats, unfortunately also refers to some of the people in the yeshiva system. Without studying mussar, and working to integrate it in our lives, we remain jackasses. This isn't my idea. This is found in the book of Iyov (11:12) עיר פרא אדם יולד "a wild ass's colt is born a man".
You refer to Shmuel Hanavi asking ׳את שור מי לקחתי...ואת מי עשקתי׳. True, this reflects Shmuel's sublime personal standards. However we might raise the question why Shmuel even brought up the matter. I suggest, that perhaps other leaders in Shmuel's day weren't as scrupulous as he was. If this theory is correct, then we shouldn't be fazed when we see people in our day whose standards don't conform to our own.
Finally, we all like to think of ourselves as examples of perfection, myself included. We self-righteously point to the foibles of others, when in truth we have other areas that we need to improve on. At the end of the day, who is more righteous than the other? Nobody knows, because Hashem has his own way of keeping score (see Rambam, Hilchos Teshuva 3:2) ואין שוקלין אלא בדעתו של אל דעות והוא היודע היאך עורכין הזכיות כנגד העונות.
Thank you for a well thought out response.
ReplyDeleteAs a parent, I can assure you that most parents are ignored in the system as well. There is no accountability...period. Some know it and don't like it, but can't do anything because:
a) They don't know where to start
b) They are struggling with other issues, and this takes a back seat
c) They are minimized, since most 'gedolim' seem to be heads of Yeshivas, rather than individuals with significant communal expertise. How can one challenge 'gedolim', right?
d) The Yeshivas know there's a paucity of alternatives, so 'go find a better place' is the attitude they bring to the table.
This is a more global problem than you seem to be prepared to acknowledge. It affects us all.
My only other comment is that I think you have taken the limmud from Sefer Shmuel and inverted it. Any Navi that was canonized has a message for all generations. I would like to think the message is that proper leadership is above board, scrupulously honest, and totally transparent (since honesty need not hide). You have taken the opposite teaching from it: Hey, the majority is falling down on the job, so no big shakes if we do too.
"Any Navi that was canonized has a message for all generations". Yes, indeed. This is stated explicitly in Maseches Megilla (14a):
ReplyDeleteהרבה נביאים עמדו להם לישראל כפלים כיוצאי מצרים אלא נבואה שהוצרכה לדורות נכתבה ושלא הוצרכה לא נכתבה
Rashi:
נבואה שהוצרכה לדורות - ללמוד תשובה או הוראה
You argue that I've taken the limmud from Sefer Shmuel and inverted it. I plead "not guilty". I agree with the lesson that you wish extrapolate. But I also pointed out a different angle that you seem to have overlooked. This is because you focused on Shmuel's words, as if they existed in a vacuum. I'm pointing out that these words were not uttered in a vacuum. As such, we need to look at the context, and possibly learn other constructive "limmudim" too.
The lesson isn't "The majority is falling down on the job, so no big shakes if we do too". Rather, "People falling on the job is not a new phenomenon, so let's not get carried away, and act as if this is the first time in history this has happened. Yes, it is disconcerting, but we need to maintain our equilibrium. In our excessive zeal to create the perfect world, we shouldn't trash the yeshiva system, which happens to be an essential part of modern day Judaism. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
The recent posts of 'piskei din' that you are referring to, are in accordance with Torah, making them also in accordance with emes, din and shalom. You are welcome to prove otherwise. On yesterday's post that deals with that, there are plenty of ra'ayos negating get on demand as opposed to affirming it.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, even in yeshivas, people believe in get on demand. It is after all an American concept, not a Torah one.
Wait, we are on the same side. The ones I was referring to allowed a married woman to get married to a second man. And they apparently were orchestrated by a head of a yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteAh, gevaldig. ...slap me five!
ReplyDeleteI completely disagree, they only serve to ram any fruitful conversation off the rails in this forum.
ReplyDeletePlus, this post is just downright mean and disrepecful to the Gedolei Torah who are moser nefesh and moser their personal ruchniyus to help the students grow.
This post is a shining example of "Mai Ahanei Lan Lrabanan"
I am not claiming that your points are not valid - just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for the baby. All I see is soapy murky water.
ReplyDeleteI've been mekayem my mitzvahs tochacha. Fertig.
I already did, I think...Do you suggest an grammatical changes?
ReplyDelete"I am not claiming that your points are not valid - just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater".
ReplyDeleteI wrote the same line yesterday, however with a different intent:
"In our excessive zeal to create the perfect world, we shouldn't trash the yeshiva system, which happens to be an essential part of modern day Judaism. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!"
I was surprised to find that the תורה תמימה actually uses this term in his קונטרס שפה לנאמנים. But then I saw on Wikipedia that it is actually quite an old פתגם.
ReplyDeleteYou should either delete the words "you get" from the beginning of the sentence, or the word "come" from the end.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, in this comment you missed out the letter "y"...