Guest post by Moshe Anwalt who a lawyer dealing with family law
This deals with issues raised regarding the issue of whether women have a right to a Get on demand
---------
Yesterday's
post raised a key issue that deserves special treatment: Is it proper
to have a divorce system where either spouse can exit the marriage
without any consequences?
The idea of
unilateral, no-fault divorce is a relatively new phenomenon, both as a
legal standard and as a cultural norm. Western society frowned upon
divorce and the legal systems required a judicial decision based upon a
finding of fault in order to grant a divorce.
It
is not surprising, therefore, that chazal and the later poskim created
numerous obstacles to ending a marriage - ketubah and cherem, to name
two examples.
In that way, the agenda promoted
by "Agunah" advocates - will definitely in tune with modern mores and
assumptions about the nature of marriage - goes against the grain of
thousands of years of halacha, not to mention societal conventions that
were held by Jews and non-Jews alike.
What is
noteworthy, however, is not simply the novelty of the pro-divorce
agenda, but the discriminatory fashion in which that agenda is applied,
at least as far as gender is concerned.
The JOFA Guide
A
clear example of this is the "Guide to Jewish Divorce and the Beit Din
System," published by the Orthodox Jewish feminist organization "JOFA."
You can find the guide at: http://jofa.org/sites/default/files/uploaded_documents/beit_din_guide_0.pdf
While
the guide is otherwise useful and presents an accurate description of
the Jewish divorce process, it makes some startling statements about
unilateral, no-fault divorce. On page 16, the guide defines an Agunah as
follows:
"An agunah is a woman chained to a dead marriage. ... "
The
guide goes on to argue that a get should always be done immediately and
may not be used to improve the party's legal position in the settlement
(page 18):
"It is wrong for either party to use a Get for
leverage in divorce proceedings. As soon as it
becomes clear that there will be no
reconciliation, the Get should be written and
delivered to the woman so that it cannot be
used as a bargaining tool in financial or custody
negotiations."
While this paragraph would indicate that JOFA looks askance at women who refuse to take a get, the guide actually clarifies that this is not the case and the wife - and only the wife - is entitled to refuse to take a get. The guide continues (page 10):
"7. ARE THERE CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH A WOMAN
SHOULD REFUSE TO ACCEPT A GET?
... It may also be legitimate to refuse to accept
a Get if the woman will be compelled to also accept an
unconscionable settlement with regard to spousal and/or
child support or custody. Another circumstance in which
it may be recommended for a woman to refuse to accept
a Get is a situation in which the Get is based on false
allegations against the woman.
....
Note: The decision to refuse to accept a Get is a
significant one and should only be undertaken with a
great deal of forethought and in consultation with an
attorney and a rabbi."
According to JOFA, there are four cases where a woman is well within her rights to refuse to take a get from her husband:
1) The wife is accused of "false allegations."
2) The woman will receive an "unconscionable settlement" with regard to spousal support
3) The woman will receive an "unconscionable settlement" with regard to child support
4) The woman will receive an "unconscionable settlement" with regard to "custody"
In
scenario 1, essentially JOFA gives carte blanche to women to hold out
and keep their husbands in a dead marriage. As for the other cases
where a woman is "justified" in refusing a get, JOFA concedes that the wife can use a get as a leverage.
Rivka and Avraham
To illustrate this, think of the following example (the names are completely fictional):
Rivka and Avraham live in a modest home in a suburban "out of town" Jewish
community in the United States. Avraham is a successful saleman, while
his wife is a well-known architect. After many years of marriage and all
the children having grown up and left the house, Avrfaham has a run-in
with the Feds, as a result of criminal activity in which Rivka was a
minor participant. Rivka asks Avraham for a get and takes him to Beis Din, through a toen.
At the Beis Din, and after the parties sign a binding arbitration agreement (shtar beirurin), Reb Berl, the dayan, asks Avraham if he agrees to give a get, and Avraham responds in the affirmative.
As the Beis Din is about to set a date for a siddur get, Reb Berl tells the parties that they must be separated before the get is done - and must remain separated after the get as well. At this point, Rivka's toen tells the Beis Din that his client will not leave the house, even though she is the one who demanded the get. Rivka tells the dayan the the familial home is jointly owned and therefore she has a right to it. Rivka and her toen add that the house is worth $500,000 - a fact which Avraham stipulates to.
Avraham, who is well versed in both halacha and secular law, proposes that
he buy out wife wife's share of the house. Rivka responds that she does
not agree under any circumstances and that she wants to stay in the
house, without having to but out Avraham's share.
Moreover,
argues Rivka, she is entitled to post-divorce spousal support, as her
income is slightly lower than Avraham's. Avraham rejects this and
observes - correctly - that halacha does not recognize a right to
spousal support after the get and that, under state law, the
aware of spousal support is a matter of discretion and, given the
circumstances, no judge would rule that spousal support is justified.
It is at this point that the dayan issues the following ruling:
1. Avraham will put $250,000 in escrow - immediately - for Rivka's benefit.
2. As soon as Rivka leaves the house, the escrow agent will transfer her the full sum.
3. Once the parties are separated, the Beis Din will set a date for a get.
4.
Since both parties consented to get divorce, the wife is no longer
entitled to spousal support. Nevertheless, after the get, the husband
will pay 12 months payments, as payment of Rivka's kesuba (as per the
opinion of the Chazon Ish), to the amount of $4,000 per month. While the
wife is not entitled to the kesubah, the Beis Din sees fit to award the
kesubah since Rivka's suit for divorce was based upon the criminal
acts of Avraham, even though Rivka was aware of the criminal acts and
even participated in them.
-------------
Bracha
is not happy with the ruling, despite the fact that it conforms to the
halacha - and state law, since the parties had signed a binding
arbitration contract. She approaches a local Rosh Yeshiva, Reb Baruch,
and asks for his help. He writes a letter, on the yeshiva stationary,
declaring Rivka an Agunah and calling for protests against Avraham for
refusing to give a get. Additionally, the Rosh Yeshiva forbids Avraham for counting toward a minyan or receiving any honor in shul.
Reb Baruch further advises Rivka to take an attorney and go to secular
court, with a motion to vacate the arbitration award and petition for
spousal support.
Going back to the JOFA Beit
Din guide, under the criteria delineated there, Rivka would be
considered an Agunah - despite the fact that Avraham agreed immediately
to give a get and did not seek to infringe upon any of Rivka's rights.
Since JOFA permits a woman to refuse a get if
the settlement is - at least in her mind - unconscionable, Rivka was
justified in refusing to accept the decision of the Beis Din. At the
same time, since the marriage is "dead," Avraham is wrong not to give a get and he should be shunned for not doing so.
This
story, while entirely fictional, is typical of divorce cases today -
and it shows how the divorce standards being proposed by Agunah
advocates lead to incorrect (and unjust) results.
The Double Standard
The double standard offered by such groups - and JOFA in particular - goes even further. Here is the Guide's advice (page 18):
"When
someone is told that a woman refused to accept a Get, the listener must
question whether and why the Get may have been refused prior to
determining that the woman is simply recalcitrant. There may be valid
reasons for a woman to refuse a Get. (See FAQs Section II:7.) One should refrain from premature judgments and gossip."
If
we unpack that statement, we notice how far the double standard
actually goes. While a husband can be criticized and ostracized without
being heard, the wife is entitled to a presumption of innocence.
Summary
The
opposition to no-fault divorce is absolutely rooted in the sources and
there are many good policy reasons for not changing the rules, even
where there is room for halachic flexibility. Chazal, in their great
wisdom, understood that marriage is not to be tampered. The current
trend in Western societies to create intimate relationships without any
mutual obligations is abhorrent to Judaism and it was precisely to avoid
this breakdown that chazal created safeguards and set legal boundaries.
However,
whichever side we take on the debate of no-fault versus fault divorce,
we cannot apply the standards arbitrarily and treat husbands any
different than wives. The public discourse has to be altered and the
frame of the debate refocused - not just on blogs, but also in shuls
and educational institutions. Once people (especially askanim and
rabbanim) are more aware of the issues, they will, hopefully, display
more sensitivity in dealing with self-proclaimed "Agunahs."
An additional related point touched upon in this essay but not correctly addressed is that other than a small number of exceptions (primarily only premarital assets the bride owned) all marital assets and money, including full ownership of the marital home even if jointly owned under non-Jewish/local secular law, belong to and is fully owned by the husband and he is entitled to all of it upon divorce, per halacha. Indeed according to the Torah and halacha anything the wife has, including her clothing, are all his property.
ReplyDeleteGood post, but your examplei mplies that 'ephraim' is involved in criminal activity is not only irrelevant to the halachic (and civilly legal) discussion, it implies (by subsequent discussion) criminal activity by AF. Actually, there is admitted criminal activity by TF's side.
ReplyDeletePlease change the names in your example. Your "disclaimer" notwithstanding, that is really disgusting of you.
ReplyDeleteMoe stop talking shtusim, a house that has both names on it almost always belongs also to her, why is her name on it, her earning and savings I'm many circumstances belong to her to her to
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly is your objection - that the rabbi's name in the ficitional account is Shmuel?! But if it was Baruch you wouldn't object?
ReplyDeleteNo, the names and professions and biographical descriptions of the couple.
ReplyDeleteDon't see what your issue is. Does anyone else agree with Yehoshua?
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with Nate. Whereas the post is a reasoned description and analysis of the problem which exists today, your comment serves to undermine the entire basis of fairness from which (I suspect) most husbands operate. There might be one or two outliers, but it's certainly not the widespread problem the aguna people make it out to be.
ReplyDeleteStop being childish and damaging the adult level of an important discussion. For you to indicate an entitlement to even the wife's clothing indicates YOU have a problem.
author responds:
ReplyDeleteMiMedinat_HaYam commented:
"but your examplei mplies that 'ephraim' is involved in criminal activity is not only irrelevant to the halachic (and civilly legal) discussion"
I wrote why it is relevant - she has some grounds for divorce and, despite the fact that she sued for divorce, she has a good argument to sue for a kesubah.
Hey earning during marriage belong to him. Befeirush Shulchan Aruch.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteThank you Mr. Anwalt for a powerful and very cogent post which could only be written by someone in the trenches with first-hand knowledge of what really goes on behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteI think the documentation you provide from the JOFA guide is invaluable, as it offers clear proof of the reality of what goes on behind the scenes, which acts to reinforce what many (like myself) have fortunately never had to experience first hand, but "felt" subjectively.
I'm sure Mr. Anwalt only cited the example of Ephraim and Bracha as being illustrative of only one of many common scenarios. By no means is he implying that criminal activity is always or usually implicated and by no means is he implying that the rush to divorce immediately is the best or most prudent approach (as he states elsewhere in the post).
All a wife's earnings during marriage belong to her husband. A befeirush Shulchan Aruch. Yes, I'm aware there is an exception to that rule IF the wife declared at some point to her husband "do not support me and I will keep my earnings". But that is the exception. The default rule in halacha is that he own all her earnings and property. And even in a case where the wife did make that declaration, it only takes effect from that point on, not retroactivity. All her past income, salary, earnings and property belong 100% to get husband. And the only time the exception is in effect is if and only if she explicitly and clearly made that declaration to her husband that he should stop supporting her. And the reality is very close to almost no wife makes that declaration. (I'm sure some exist in some rare cases.)
ReplyDeleteThe Halacha is anything she owns, other than what she already owned prior to getting married, all belongs to her husband. You may not like that halacha, your may thing that halacha is unfair, your may think that halacha doesn't apply in America, your may think the Halacha stopped being applicable in the twenty first century, but your are dead wrong. The Halacha is in full, 100%, effect b'zman hazeh per the Shulchan Aruch and all normative halacha.
And halacha overrides non-Jewish local secular law on marital assets distribution in cases of divorce. Irregardless if both their names appear on the deed to the house or bank account, it is 100% his property. Anything she owns, he is the actual owner of per halacha.
Fairness is determined by Hashem, His Torah HaKedosha and by the Halacha we learn from the Torah. And the Halacha is exactly as I stated it is. And that is 100% fair.
ReplyDeleteWhat grounds is a crime for divorce? None that I know of. If a husband ate treif once (not continuously) and regrets it, is that grounds for the wife to force him to divorce her through beis din? No. So if a husband stole money from the bank once and regrets it, is that grounds for the wife to force him to divorce her, if he doesn't want to divorce her? Not according to any halacha I know of.
ReplyDeleteWell said and absolutely correct.
ReplyDeleteYes, I would suggest changing the RY's name to Baruch rather than Shmuel. As it stands it certainly can give the implication it is targeted at a similar named RY in an ongoing case.
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world? I reread the post, there's nothing wrong. Unless I'm too dense to understand a reference.
ReplyDeleteThen find another grounds. Since the discussion later veers to the current case (and i don't recall that she has grounds), you are now improperly including implications of criminal activity which is not present on AF's side.
ReplyDeleteUse other grounds. (Besides, your case study includes the ex wife in the criminal activity. No grounds for that claim, now.)
are Rivka and Avraham fictional names? Perhaps he knows an actual couple by that name!?
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if women is the sole breadwinner?
ReplyDeleteHave u heard of מעשה ידיה ע"י דחק
Please learn before making these ignorant comments, and BTW I love halacha
U seem to be very unlearned, learn hilchot ketubot, and u will see more exepsions then rules
ReplyDeleteThe מעשה ידיה situation is addressed in the comment. Reread the comment before responding. It is unusual for a wife to officially declare that status and it is only applicable if she asked to be put in that status. Very few wives ask for that and therefore it is not applicable to the vast majority of wives.
ReplyDeleteAnd even if she did declare and ask for that status, it is only applicable from that time forward. And it only applies to money she earned. She does not get to take any money from her husband's earnings. So if the house was purchased from her husband's salary, then it is his even if she had מעשה ידיה.
But מעשה ידיה as stated doesn't apply to most wives in the real world since they never told their husband to stop supporting them.
And in most families the husband makes more income than the wife, often much more, sometimes the wife doesn't work at all or works only part time or a low-paying job like a teacher or morah or secretary. And the house and bank account was mostly from his income.
ReplyDelete100 upvotes!
ReplyDeleteYe'yasher kochakhem R' Moshe Anwalt and respondents. As argued in my prenuptial agreement essay, footnote 6a, available at
ReplyDeletehttp://www.scribd.com/doc/176990434/Prenuptial-Agreements
there is a safek issur de-Oraita (by virtue of Exodus 20:14) to verbally pressure a Jewish husband outside of the Beth Din process to divorce his Jewish wife. Furthermore, as I argue in the earlier footnote 5, the Noahide Code provides greater flexibility, where a Noahide wife can simply dissolve the marriage by unilaterally leaving the Noahide husband's home. Hopefully, this prenuptial agreement essay will help spread the message of Rambam (Hilkhot Chanukah 4:14) that creating marital peace is a great mitzvah. If I may suggest a homiletic insight, this may explain an earlier passage in Hilkhot Chanukah 3:12, where Rambam writes that the number of times that an illiterate congregation should respond to the reader during Hallel (in order to discharge the obligation of reciting Hallel through the mechanism of shoméa ke-oneh) is one hundred and twenty-three, "a mnemonic to the matter is the number of years of Aaron's life." What is the message of this mnemonic? Perhaps we can say that Aaron judiciously spent his years bringing peace between husband and wife (as Rashi to Numbers 20:29 comments) and so he deserves to be rewarded by being mnemonically associated with Chanukah. Thank you and best wishes, Shalom Spira
Moshe, thanks so much for this post. It is very informative - even for people familiar with the issues, it is like a breath of fresh air (especially when the feminists and the atmosphere in which we live in continue to blast their distorted information nonstop).
ReplyDelete.......which leads me to mention a thought I was lately musing upon: if not for all these feminist organizations that polarize women for battle (legal and otherwise, ), the agunah problem wouldn't be NEARLY what it actually and truthfully is (I mean with the factored in accounting of the inflated and bogus figures they say it is).
Will not get into arguments with amei aretz
ReplyDeleteWhat did Nate say? Guess, something similar to yours.
ReplyDeleteWill I rip the clothes off my wife's back? No. But if you feel halacha is immature, then say so! It's the perspective here that counts.
Not sure where you are coming from. Have you gone to Yeshiva? Did you learn mesechtos like Kesubos, Gittin Kiddushin and Nedarim?
That should save us from hearing you argue with yourself. It's a good thing too because it's never pretty when you talk to yourself. And if you don't have a teretz to valid points, calling everyone else who points out the correct halacha that you don't like an am haaretz makes you feel good.
ReplyDeleteI responded to a comment made by Moe. Based on his comment, I believe he would take issue with the פסק in the post. Why was the husband forced to give the wife a quarter of a million dollars (!) for a joint holding?? It all belongs to him!
ReplyDeleteSo to answer your question, Halacha is not immature, but rather flexible. But it needs to be applied properly, and with אמת and ישרות.
On the other hand, many people on the sidelines are indeed immature, and would make comments that 1) would leave the mother of one's children in virtual penury, and 2) are so clearly against the proper exercise of Halacha today that such comments only fuel the pro aguna crowd.
Mature people should look to find a way out of this mess, not to proudly quote the ש״ע even as the suffering continues on both sides. Only a fool would stick to the ד׳ אמות של הלכה as kids suffer year after year as their parents continue the stalemate.
Nathan, Sources Would help. Thank You
ReplyDeleteRead hundreds of reponsa in piskei din rabanim, and see how complex the issues are
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if she wins the lottery a day before she gets divorced
ReplyDeleteyou first need to start with what the halacha is and then make modification when and if permitted by circumstances.
ReplyDeleteA judge that automaticaly rules in favor of a poor person over a rich person is an evil person. if it is peshara then the rules are more flexible.
פסק? What "פסק"? There was no פסק in the post. The post is an imaginary scenario dreamt up by someone who is not a Dayan but rather whose profession is being a secular lawyer in non-Jewish court, practicing the intricacies of non-Jewish laws, NOT Jewish Law (Halacha). A real פסק in beis din based on Halacha would not make that judgement. A secular court certainly might reach that judgement.
ReplyDeleteAnd either litigant had the right to insist the beis din utilize Din and not Peshara. But don't mention that to Daniel NY1 least you be advised of proudly quoting Shulchan Aruch.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.justice.gov/usao-nj/pr/two-orthodox-jewish-rabbis-sentenced-prison-conspiring-kidnap-jewish-husbands-force-them
ReplyDeleteRabbis Mendel Epstein, 70, of
Lakewood, New Jersey, and Binyamin Stimler, 40, of Brooklyn, New York, were
sentenced to 120 and 39 months in prison, respectively.
According
to documents filed in this case and the evidence at trial:
On Dec.
1, 2009, in Lakewood, an Orthodox Jewish man, Israel Markowitz, was assaulted,
placed in a van, tied up, beaten and shocked with a stun-gun until he agreed to
give his wife a get.
In those meetings,
Epstein arranged to have his team kidnap the husband at a warehouse in exchange
for $60,000.
The Torah way is that if
a husband, alive and well and free, refuses to give his wife a get, the wife
may sue for divorce in a beth din, which may order the husband, alive and well
and free, to issue the get. No shocking
with stun guns. With the husband alive
and well and free, the beth din must hear the husband out.
The point about the husband's ownership of even the clothes was to stress how strong his claim to full ownership is. It was not to encourage or suggest he demand them off her back, though the law would be on his side. Certainly I'd expect any divorcing husband to not ask for her clothing and one would have to be pretty mean spirited to do so. But this point doesn't extend to generally his full ownership of the marital home and full bank account. That is his property and ownership by all rights and I would no more expect him to do a 50/50 split with her of them, than him to split his set of Shas with her. They are his by all rights, halacha, yashrus, fairness and mortality. The entire idea that marital assets are jointly and/or evenly owned by both spouses is an idea from Western laws (and relatively recent even at that), not anything Jewish or Torahdik.
ReplyDeleteThank you but I believe you are only allowed on upvote.
ReplyDeleteThere is a Halacha (Rambam Ishus 22' 27' based on Bava Basra51a) of the husband giving a present to his wife. It is entirely conceivable that the husband writing the wife's name on a home as a joint owner has the status of a present.
ReplyDeleteLook, Moe, we are so far apart in our thinking that there doesn't seem to be a point in arguing this any further.
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear, here is how I see your scenario playing out: husband and wife married for 20 years, living a decent lifestyle. Problems develop, and divorce occurs (let's blame them both equally). Wife gets nothing other than kesuba (which I guess is much less than $48K, based on your other comment) and nothing else. Husband gets everything, and שלום על ישראל.
If such a scenario is how you see Halacha playing out - and is in line with דרכיה דרכי נועם - then we are not in the same religion.
Is your religion determined by how pleasant it is or what the rules are?
ReplyDeleteClever question, but I believe some of the rules are determined by their 'pleasantness' quotient. I believe the גר and the relationship with their birth parents comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteIn the 21st century, the here and now, please tell me how you perceive the scenario I described. Wife gets 25 or 30K after 20 years of marriage, and husband gets everything else? זו תורה? Really?
Then you wish her husband a hearty mazal tov on his good fortune! And he should thank her for using his money (since any money she has is still his) to buy his winning lottery ticket.
ReplyDeleteyou are assuming for some unknown reason that pleasantness is a metarule that governs halacha - but it isn't. It is invoked on some occassions - but it doesn't overule clear halacha
ReplyDeleteIf you really believe what you are writing - please find the teshuvos that say " the letter of the law is "X" but because it is unpleasant we do "Y"
@DanielNY1 Yes, indeed. You have now correctly described the true Halachic system and Torah Laws. There is everything right about it. Like you were told by a previous comment, your trouble accepting this is because your view is colored by the non-Jewish expectation of doing a 50/50 split in a divorce case. There is no basis in the Torah and Judaism for that idea. Attributing your desire to make that the new system, when it never was the way divorces were conducted in bais din and in Judaism for thousands of years, by calling it "דרכיה דרכי נועם", simply doesn't cut it. You are making your own religion here Daniel. It isn't Judaism. Though the Reform and Conservative movements will certainly agree with the sentiments you are expressing here. And see RDE's response to this same comment I am responding to you on.
ReplyDeleteThere is no halachic difference how long they were married in determining asset separation. This is another error you are attempting to import into the Torah Jewish world from the secular non-Jewish 21st century.
ReplyDeleteYes, זו תורה.
ReplyDeleteHow is a person simply keeping everything he owns unpleasant? It would be unpleasant, and a violation of דרכיה דרכי נועם, to force the husband to give away a large portion of his money and assets to someone who it does not belong to and does not own it. Even if that someone is his ex-wife.
ReplyDeleteIt is only your own boich sevara that tells you we should force the husband to give away a large portion of the fortune and properties he owns to someone it does not belong to.
If a child moves away from his parents must the parent give the child (enforceable in beis din) a sizable amount of money so the child can continue living the same lifestyle he was used to living in his parents home? This would be the same idea as your insistence that a husband pay a sizeable amount of his fortune to his ex-wife. דרכיה דרכי נועם you scream.
Tomorrow you'll be telling us that your boich is telling you that if Paul Reichmann or Yehuda Rechnitz lives next to a lower middle class frum family living paycheck-to-paycheck, then Mr. Reichmann and Mr. Rechnitz must be required by beis din to give that struggling middle class family next door at least a million dollars. Because a million dollars to a Mr. Reichmann or a Mr. Rechnitz is petty cash to anyone else that they'll never notice or feel is even missing if they are forced to give it away. And, your stomach is telling you, how can we let a nice frum family struggle to pay tuition and live paycheck to paycheck when their multi-multi-multi-millionaire next door neighbor could be required to give him a sizable amount of dough to enrich their lives.
Lol, see tsit eliezer who says otherwise
ReplyDeleteWhose money did she use to purchase the lottery ticket with? His, of course, since all the money she has is has. The Mechaber even paskens a wife is not permitted to give (more than a nominal sum) to tzedaka without permission from her husband.
ReplyDeleteThat would only be applicable if he intended to give it to her as a gift (and she made a halachic kinyan). If he merely added her jointly because there are benefits under secular law by doing so (i.e. legally safer to avoid losing it in foreclosure to a third-party debt, inheritance, or whatever other benefit), but he did not intend to gift it to her and he did not do anything (other than making it a joint ownership under secular law) to make it clear that he intended to gift it to her, halachicly he never gifted part of his ownership of it to her.
ReplyDeleteThis point would be even more true regarding a joint bank account that he opened 15 years ago. The money he put into the account after the account was opened certainly was not gifted to her.
To RDE, Cats, David, et al:
ReplyDeleteI consider myself on the right side of this issue....I think get on demand is absolutely wrong too. The disposability of our society was not meant to leak into marriage, and many don't yet understand that.
However, we part company at that point. You keep trying to justify your leaving the wife penniless with sources and שו׳ת from various locations. This is an issue that requires serious psak, which is all that, and more. If you want to pasken from the sources and ignore current society (and women's position in it), then we are talking on different wavelengths.
Again, this is entirely different than the other non-sequiturs that some of you have raised regarding children, child support, the Rothchilds next door, etc. This is about the ability of a Posek to recognize where things are at today, and proceed accordingly.
I suspect RG felt similar pushback during his day: "Chain the husband until she agrees?? Absurd!" But, he recognized that women were being taken advantage of, and acted accordingly.
By y'all advocating such an absurd outcome as to leave the wife nearly penniless - with no takkana for the value of the kesuba or any other correction - you are in essence perpetuating the get wars we are now undergoing. תפסת מרובה, לא תפסת.
This is where the fifth חלק of ש״ע is desperately needed. These battle lines will never be resolved with your attitudes. Good luck to you all.
Lol, the dollar came from an allowance her husband gave her for her personal needs
ReplyDeleteYou're on the wrong side of this issue, Daniel. No one here is justifying leaving the wife penniless. Your earlier insistence that a correct hypothetical psak would give the wife a quarter of a million dollars (representing 50% of the value of the house) in addition to her kesuba, set at an arbitrary $48,000, and child support, is far above and away from keeping her from becoming "penniless" you don't need a quarter million plus to prevent pennilessness. Your story of that approach is not justified by keeping the "poor" ex from becoming penniless and homeless on the street. It is only "justified" to live up to the secular laws expectation of something akin of a 50/50 split that had zero basis in Torah Judaism.
ReplyDeleteSee shulchan aruch choshen mishpat 184' 2' based on the gemora bava kama 102b and mordechai perek hazahav 450' that if you buy real property and put someone else's name on the document of sale, if no verbal statement was made at the time that you were just joking, that person is the owner with whatever kinyan the buyer made. You cannot say later that you were not serious(obviously because that's dvarim shebilev). Even if he bought the house and said verbally that he is not intending to make his wife the owner, since he will be counting his wife as an owner for tax purposes this is a violation of dina dimalchusa according to R' Akiva Eiger(the tshuva is brought in the newer editions of his writings on bava kama 113a) that telling the truth is included in dina dmalchusa. Regarding the bank account there is the same issue although it is more complex: Giving money to his wife's account without saying anything out loud is a present to her, and the fact that he wasn't serious is dvarim shebilev. If he would say it out loud then it is not a present and he violates dina dmalchusa. Also see ktzos 250' 5' that says we cannot throw out a matana without a 100% clear umdena.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm wasting my breath here.
ReplyDeleteInstead of you seeing the big picture, i.e., that takkanas RG was a required sea change that redrew the map, you instead called attention to your perception that I'm walking around thinking I'm the next RG. There's no discussion with such nonsense.
We are dealing with wealth on a scale that is unprecedented in our history. If you think that having a husband worth 10 mil slice off a 1% piece for his wife of 20 years and walk away is going to fly today, there's nothing more to discuss.
In fact, it's already not working. That's why the women are in court, or are hiring Epstein and his goons. Because it is utterly imbalanced. And until today's leadership agrees that this problem can't continue in this vein, the get wars will continue. You're quoting Halacha all day, and ignoring the complete destruction of the forest around us.
1% of 10 mil is $100,000, and you consider that too little, so clearly your concern is NOT leaving her near penniless, as $100K is nothing akin to pennilessness. You're openly looking at giving her a percentage, which is how you're framing it though there is no halachic basis for that.
ReplyDeleteThe minority of people who stomp and violate halacha are not a justification to change the Halacha as you are advocating.
The marital unit has shifted significantly in the last 50 years. Two earner households are the rule. If you want to ignore reality and dig in your heels, you WILL fail.
ReplyDeleteThe comments made to me in this thread alone are divorced (pun) from this reality. Some of you have said right here that (for example) a woman attorney's lifetime of earnings all belong to the husband. I am not quarreling that in a different era, a woman stayed home and took care of the house. But if you think that 1% is going to cover it for 20 or 30 years of marriage today, you are deluding yourself, using none of your שכל, and forcing women out of our ב״ד system. It's already happening. True leadership is going to need to address life as it is today, not try and dump it back to where it was a century ago.
So the Tzitz is talking about a very specific and unique case. You didn't point that out in your original comment above. You incorrectly made it seem as if the wife simply took money from the household and bought a lottery ticket. In that case it would be the husband who owns the ticket. But in the case you are referring to in the Tzitz the husband effectively gave his wife a matana or allowance, which then becomes hers since her husband gave it to her as a present, and she used that to buy the ticket. But if the wife simply took money that was not given her as an allowance then the ticket would be the husbands.
ReplyDeleteBut since anything that belongs to the wife actually belongs to the husband, it isn't similar to putting stam another person or friend or neighbor or relative on the document of sale. Any sale acquired by a married woman then belongs to her husband. So even if her name is on the document, the property belongs to her husband. The S"A and Mordechai you cited aren't relevant to this as they are only addressing putting stam someone else on the document, not a wife particularly, and a wife is different in this regard than some other person.
ReplyDeleteThe question here was whether or not he gave her a matana or not, since his giving her a matana is the only way for a wife to acquire something without it belonging to her husband. And it doesn't appear that a husband putting his wife's name on a real estate document indicates he intended to give it to her as a matana rather than doing it for its financial and other advantages.
Regarding your point about dina d'malchusa from R' Akiva Eiger, even if we grant the husband violated dina d'malchusa (which for various reasons I don't think would necessarily be the case in the described scenario), still violating dina d'malchusa doesn't take away his property and make it hers.
There are numerous shailos uteshuvos of cases where a person bought a property but put it in someone else's name for various reasons (some legitimate and some not so legitimate), and when it came to beis din the beis din found that the ownership was still owned by the purchaser not the person listed in the legal documents. If you buy a mansion in Peru but buy it in your brothers name since there is a judgement (on a completely unrelated matter) against you in Peru for a million dollars and you don't want the mansion seized since it would be owned under your name, halachicly you still own the mansion and not your brother.
Now as far as joint bank accounts (or even a bank account solely in her name) are concerned, and as you noted that would be a different shaila than a jointly owned real estate property, most of the above points I made about whether it is or isn't a matana would also be applicable. Additionally, remember any money deposited in the bank account long after the account was opened surely doesn't indicate any matana was made by him to her. If I deposit your check into my account does that make your money become my money? Also, if she is working and getting direct deposit (and remember her income belongs to her husband), there is no action being taken by the husband every time her employer direct deposits the salary into the bank account, so there's no reason to assume he is giving it to her as a matana.
Daniel, this bit you say about it being "imbalanced" is what the "religious" feminists go around yelling. Halacha is "utterly imbalanced" regarding yerusha, gittin, religious issues, kiddushin, davening, becoming a rabbi, wearing tefilin, etc. They, too, want to modernize halacha to balance it between the genders. That's what Open Orthodoxy is all about.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it the ex-husband's responsibility to keep an ex-wife's living standards as she experienced them in his home when she was still married to him? I asked you if you think he has the same legal obligation to keep his child's living standards up to par experienced in his home when the child moves out. You ignored that point. A ex-husband has no obligation to an ex-wife once she moves out other than to pay her the kesuba. The kesuba is designed to keep her afloat a bit until she lands. It is purposely designed as a one-time payment to support a single woman for about a year. The husband is not obligated to insure she can still drive the latest model SUV, have the most recent designed handbags, wear the latest styles from Paris and be able to vacation once or twice a year. His obligation to his ex is very basic not extensive. She is his ex, not his wife. Your expectations otherwise are coming from the goyish world where they have non-halachic tools such as ongoing annual alimony, 50-50 asset splits, etc. Jewish law, on the other hand, does not differentiate how much an ex-husband must give his ex-wife (kesuba) whether he is as rich as a Rockefeller or he is a cashier in the kosher grocery. And that's been our laws for 3,000+ years.
You're calling for a new takana on asset distribution and others are calling for a new takana to require the husband to give a Get when halacha otherwise indicates he needn't.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't we start this discussion overagain. You are proposing that our rabbis make a universal decree that shifts the beis din's decisions to be in line with modern secular thought. The reason you want this to happen is that women think the system is unfair.
ReplyDeleteObviously if the men thought it was unfair you don't need a takana.
Assuming of the sake of discussion that there is a critical need for this takana - how would you enact it and how would you enforce it?
@DanielNY1 , if a woman today is a stay at home mom and doesn't work, which is what
ReplyDeleteyou say is the reason the halacha is the way the halacha is on this issue (mistakenly I say since halacha in S"A does in fact address the two earner household situation; but lets grant you this for the sake of argument), then you would agree if the stay at home non-working wife gets divorced then we follow halacha as halacha states that the entirety of the money and assets in the household remain with the husband, as Jews have practiced for time immemorial in divorce cases?
Thank you. This is a helpful question.
ReplyDeleteI fear it is above my pay grade to figure out how to do this. But, my point is that the woman's position has shifted radically. I think our marriages need to recognize this reality. There are many marriages with women who are serious breadwinners, and assets in the very high stratosphere. To continue the concept of a Kesuba of מאה זוז and be gone is just, well, ridiculous. We don't even know what a zuz is. If Beis Din doesn't start to recognize the need for proper asset distribution, then of course women will head to court and other even worse doorsteps. The fact that we haven't done this yet is a מכשול we ourselves have placed in these women's paths.
So, I agree with you...let's start the discussion again. To fight to preserve an impossible status quo is foolishness. Let you and the others join in at this stage -- you surely know more than me what is possible within the bounds of חושן משפט -- and let's develop a workable solution.
I have followed your arguments over time, and I agree with your position, but only to a point. There's a bunch of rabbis lined up on the side of the wives, and advocating for get on demand with assets to be fought in court. Then, there's rabbis (even some of the עדה who aligned themselves at times with Epstein ועדתו) lined up to fight back by giving the husband everything in בית דין, and granting him a heter by 100 yeshivaleit אשר איננו יודעים בין ימינם ושמאלם.
Neither approach works. They are both wrong. We need to start again and discuss a workable solution. For everyone's sake, both men and women. It's already crashing and burning in front of our eyes.
The fix for this is simple and does not require a change of halacha. Let the couple simply write a prenup contract, enforceable in BD and in court, stating what the payments and division of assets will be in the event of divorce. Let societal pressure determine whether such prenups will be employed.
ReplyDeleteLol, lol, therefore the idea that everything she has is her husband's is shtutot
ReplyDeleteWhat about yerusha?
What about life insurance
What about a injury award
What's so hard for you to understand? If there's 3 sons (including a b'chor) and 2 daughters, first the almana gets an allowance so she can live. Then the yerusha is split into four cheleks. Two cheleks (50%) go to the b'chor and one chelek (25%) goes to each of the other two sons.
ReplyDeleteYes, the general rule of thumb is everything the wife owns or acquires belongs to her husband. Of course there are some exceptions, but that is the default halacha,
@kishkeyum, That may be fine. But I take it you agree in the absence of any prenup or agreement beforehand, what @DanielNY1 is proposing is halachicly incorrect and unenforceable in beis din. (That B"D can take assets that halachicly belong to the husband and give it to the ex-wife over the objections of the husband.)
ReplyDelete@DanielNY1, you are overlooking the point that there is no one with authority today to overrule the Shulchan Aruch and change the Halacha so that a Beis Din could be empowered to take assets that Halacha deems as owned by the husband and then rule it is to be awarded to the ex-wife.
ReplyDeleteBelieve me In the structure of today's world there are more exeptions then rules
ReplyDeleteInsufficient on 3 counts.
ReplyDeleteIt leaves all who are already married unprotected.
Yours is optional, and will therefore be ineffectual.
Instead of creating a standard, you are leaving up to each couple.
For each of the above reasons, your idea won't work.
It would seem that it's not allowed (although I claim no expertise in this), but I wonder about the halachic status of jointly-owned assets. Several posters here have claimed that they belong to the husband. I'm not convinced. I can see a good argument to say that they belong partly to the wife, b/c by placing money in a jointly-owned account, or by placing assets in her name, the husband is in effect giving her a gift. The law is that gifts given by a husband to his wife are her property, not his.
ReplyDeleteSeparately, I don't think Daniel is proposing to violate the halachah; I think he's suggesting that the gedolei hador of all sectors of klal Yisrael get together and make some kind of takana, or something along those lines. Frankly, I don't see it as ever happening.
I think my idea of a prenup is a good one. The question is whether it would be accepted. That's something that gedolim and rabbonim could be instrumental in achieving.
David,
ReplyDeleteFrom reading your comments on this thread, I get where you're coming from. Instead of seeing where this problem has taken us, you'd rather go back to the status quo that existed long ago.
I can't argue with this kind of thinking. You don't want to see how your attitude sends women to court, every time. Instead of addressing the problem, you want to excoriate the women.
Yerusha? I think we have halachic work arounds for all those husbands who are leaving their assets to their spouses, instead of to their kids. Don't we?
Is a few women putting on tefillin at the Kotel worth a riot? Is that different than those who throw rocks at Shabbos drivers or spit on fifth grade girls?
Is your investment in protecting the husband's assets worth all the children who are suffering here? It's coming apart at the seams, and several of you want to smugly say, "Hey, too bad. Halacha is Halacha."? I don't accept that there isn't a way to meet in the middle on this thorny problem. It'll require true leadership, which is completely absent from this discussion.
Won't work. Again, it won't work. They will go to court, as they are doing in droves. It won't work.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm having trouble understanding is why you aren't keen to the human toll all of this is taking....fathers, mothers, and children are being ripped apart.
But it apparently doesn't matter. When I say it won't work, you guys come back every time with 'but it must work'.
You've already got a bunch of rabbis mitigating for get on demand. You've had thugs hired, FBI investigations, people in hospital and in jail.
IT WON'T WORK.
a) Every takana needs to start somewhere.
ReplyDeleteb) If it becomes common, as it will if supported by the right people, it will be the default option, the standard.
c) See B.
Daniel, your idea won't work because it is anti-halachic.
ReplyDeleteBefore Joseph Rosenberger started Shatnes Labs in NY in the 50s, Shatnes laws were almost entirely ignored and forgotten and routinely and unknowingly violated by the vast majority of American Orthodox Jews. If you told a random American Orthodox Jew in the 50s or 60s that he's wearing Shatnes and better quickly change, he'd laugh you in the face and put the same suit on the very next day.
ReplyDeleteYour "fix" to the sad state of Shatnes affairs would be, as you you're doing better, to demand the rabbis fix the laws since everyones violating them anyways. Mr. Rosenberger's fix was to educate and get everyone to follow the Halacha.
Not to change the Halacha.
And today, B"H, the community widely observes th laws of Shatnes.
Well, yours isn't either. See reply to Catskills below.
ReplyDeleteWell, there's already some type of pre-nup that addresses part of the problem, but it has met with pretty stiff resistance from chareidi circles. And it has no bearing on asset distribution. And, two people starting out with nothing....on what are you drawing up a pre-nup?
ReplyDeleteI'm not an attorney, and I have no clue as to whether such a plan will survive after a 20 or 30 year marriage. But I'm skeptical, for the same reasons that I'm skeptical of the pro-Agunah team saying now that the husbands can 'just go to court' to settle assets and custody.
If we are trying to bolster the halachic system, I wonder if civil pre-nups are the solution. But if there are legal minds that want to weigh in, by all means.
I agree with much of what you say. I think the disempowerment movement of which you speak is because the halachists today (if there are any competent ones) have been unable to move the discussion to a better resolution of asset distribution. Your last sentence is interesting, if only because I believe today's crisis surrounding divorce has blurred those lines, much as they were blurred in RG's time. Back then, he made enactments that favored the communal need over the individual one.
ReplyDeleteChoshen Mishpat is relevant to the wife also as long as it is a case of a present, as you note. If the husband does something which in Halacha is viewed as a gift then the wife will own it just like anyone else. The only question is whether this is a present. The fact that the husband wasn't serious does not matter if he never said anything, as it's dvarim shebilev. The point I think you are making(correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Halacha of a present is only when the husband takes something which he owns and then transfers ownership to the wife. But since he never owned the house previously he is merely acting as the wife's messenger and buying the house on her behalf, in which case the daas makne transfers the house directly to her, and then mah shekana isha kana baalah gives it to him. The fact that her husband acted as her messenger to buy it does not matter. This is indeed a good question. However, the document itself may be enough, as Rambam zchiyah 4'11 and 6' 4'. However, boruch Hashem I just saw that the Tur even haezer in the end of siman 86 says if the document is made out in the husband and wife's name and she wasn't involved in the finances, they are PARTNERS and if only her name is on it then it is hers.
ReplyDeleteHiring Epstein and Goons comes from the evil advisors that plague us.
ReplyDeleteEssentially calling for reformation of Orthodoxy.
ReplyDeleteAlimony is basically a law from Sodom. If you don't fathom what I am saying, you will once you have to pay it........the way it ties one down financially and psychologically.
ReplyDelete"Is a few women putting on tefillin worth the riot? What's it different than spitting on fifth grade girls? "
ReplyDeleteEasy difference: the first is an organized scheme by falsified of Torah to to impose their distortion on the rest of Klal Yisroel, while the spitting on fifth graders wasn't sanctioned by any Torah authority, just a zealous act by several individuals.
you still seem to view authority today as top down. Authority today is bottom up. If the people can be convinced to accept the idea than nothing will happen
ReplyDeleteThe Torah assures us "Ki lo tishochach mipi zaro" - that is A PROMISE: the Torah will not be forgotten. So like or not, one way or another, it's going to fly.
ReplyDeleteWere you ever in court, where they cut away half your assets and a chunk of your earnings to someone whom you didn't like and more so, had no obligation al pi halacha to do so?? (If I may, I read from the perspective of a famous celebrity who went through a divorce: it's like cutting a man's genitals through his wallet. ) Logically, to give away hard earned money to a woman who is now a stranger to me, doesn't fly either. (That is of course if I have nothing outstanding that I would owe her.) Halacha considers it robbery. Anything different would be Reform Judaism. Do you believe Torah to be the ultimate truth? Make up your mind.
What do you mean "and she wasn't involved in the finances"?
ReplyDeleteDoes halacha need to be flexible, or do perhaps the *people* need to be flexible to adjust themselves to Torah? Are we promoting man in G-d's image are we promoting G-d in man's image?
ReplyDeleteOne more observation if I may:
America champions these alimony , equitable distribution and the like and then - it is the country with the highest level of divorce. That is the reward for such laws. Entitlement is apparently a priority over family commitment.
The Sefer, "Mishpetai Yisroel",which deals with the divorce scenario in Eretz Yisroel, and its effect on frum people, points out that after the "Meretz" party came to power and put into effect these dreadful laws, that the divorce rate has skyrocketed. (Also confirmed by lawyers.) Does our Torah really need "enrichment" from such "enlightenment?
We Aren't talking about botei din that "pasken" by how much money they got and from what
ReplyDelete..;-D
Oy. Takkanas RG יוכיח, on multiple levels.
ReplyDeleteI have no issue with that at all. This is, after all, a money issue, and we've all been infected with a toxic view (to our spirituality, anyway) of its importance.
ReplyDeletePeople can be educated.
What's this business of you keep throwing in Rabbeinu Gershom? Takanas RG has no bearing or relevance to the point you are raising it under. RG saw that men were abusing halacha. Men, at the time, were divorcing their wives on a whim. Other men were marrying multiple wives and favoring one over another or ignoring some of their wives. So RG tightened the belt and outlawed some things that were previously lawful. What RG did not do is make lawful what was previously outlawed. Nor did RG enact any takanas that made anything that was previously non-halachic become halachic. He simply made some activities that were previously permitted now become non-permitted. Even before RG it was entirely halachic and lawful for men to only marry one wife and for men to refrain from divorcing a wife who didn't want to be divorced.
ReplyDeleteRG simply cracked down on abuse of the law against those abusing it.
You on the other hand are demanding to change halacha in the sense of making something that is currently non-halachic and against halacha become halachic. This is impossible to do of effect such a change into the Torah halachic system. You want to forcce halachic owners of assets into giving away their money and property to someone else. Jewish courts cannot force an unwilling person to surrender his property and money.
You, otoh, want to crack down against those who are being abused by law-abusers and help the law-abusers.
The women today who go to goyish-court kneged halacha to obtain marital assets that they are not halachicly entitled to are violating Torah law. Violating Torah law both by 1) going to non-Jewish court and 2) by stealing money and property from their ex-husband that he owns not she. You want to codify her wrongful actions by making it declared okay.
RG did the opposite of what you want to do.
A "fix" is assuming the gedolei rabbonim agree with DanielNY1 on this issue, something there is no indication or reason to think they do.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, the chareidi world opposes halachic prenups for multiple reasons. One of the big reasons for the opposition is because it introduces discussion and consideration of how to handle a divorce before the marriage has even begun. (Even if someone disagrees with this point, it nevertheless is the position of the chareidi rabbinic world.) This point of opposition applied against the RCA halachic prenup to give a Get would equally apply to a prenup on how to split assets in a divorce.
Well, there's already some type of pre-nup that addresses part of the
ReplyDeleteproblem, but it has met with pretty stiff resistance from chareidi
circles.
But a new takana won't meet with resistance. Aha.
And it has no bearing on asset distribution.
And it thus has no relevance to this discussion, since I am specifically speaking of a prenup that would deal with asset distribution.
And, two people starting out with nothing....on what are you drawing up a pre-nup?
On future earnings and possessions.
Halacha IS flexible. Witness the takkana of RG. Witness the workaround today for the laws of yerusha.
ReplyDeleteI am not advocating violating Halacha, but this is a money issue, and we are destroying everything instead of realizing that the money just isn't worth it. It is in everyone's best interest to reach a settlement. When people can't see that, then someone needs to step in and force them to do so. I don't know what mechanism exists to do so, but this is definitely a situation where the communal need trumps individual rights.
Some keep repeating that we must go back to simple Halacha: the husband owns everything. That genie is already out of the bottle. Women today are much too sophisticated to even consider the merits of stripping them of all property and financial rights.
You say you understand Rabbeinu Gershom? Do you have sources. Rav Sternbuch said it was to hinder divorce
ReplyDeleteHe didn't say it was to promote feminism.
Daniel, if you are comfortable with the Sodomite laws, why not check out here Gerald Aranoff's most recent post (for sure sure within the last few days) and afterwards ask him how he feels about these laws and how he will relate to your indifference. TY
ReplyDeleteThere is a concept called "נושאת ונותנת בתוך הבית" which means that we know that the husband gives his property to her to manage. The mordechai and rashbo (brought by ramo in choshen mishpat 62') say that stam women are considered נושאת ונותנת. This makes her claim on any property much more difficult for her, as the burden of proof now rests on her to prove that this money is hers. These halachos are very complex and there are differences of opinion among the nosei keilim whether she can ever have a מגו. I am not holding at all in these halachos but I just want to show that there are possibilities and much bekius is needed to know all of them.
ReplyDeleteIt is a known fact (especially now, with tapes and videos) that Mendel Epstein et al were shelo k'halacha, so what's the choice?
ReplyDeleteHaha Daniel, very interesting: Chazal say that after the churban, G-d has naught, save the arba amos shel halacha. Is G-d a fool??? Lololllllllll
ReplyDeleteHave bigger and better things to do, point was that כל מה שקנתה אשה קנה בעלה has more exeptions then rules
ReplyDeleteQuoting an esoteric חז״ל, and then giggling at the pain and suffering this entire issue is causing across the Jewish world.....
ReplyDeleteI think I'll leave your comment as is.
Here is an explanation as to why according to the Torah it is immoral for a woman not to receive 50% of assets upon being divorced.
ReplyDeleteIf you have 2 partners who are not married and both put up $10,000 to open a store and both work 10 hours a day running the store, they are both 50% owners, receive 50% profits, and will receive 50% one day when they sell the store. If these 2 partners happen to be married it shouldn’t change the moral claim of the wife to the assets. In marriage, assuming the husband and wife put up the same money, and both worked just as hard (whether in the office or as the homemaker) the moral claim should be the same.
One might argue, that it is moral for the husband to keep 100% because the Torah says so. However, the Torah does allow a kesubah to be written for much higher amounts, and does allow for a prenuptial agreement to divide future assets 50-50, so a strong argument can be made that it is the will of Hashem to write a larger kesubah or do a prenuptial or just willingly give 50% and that if you don’t you are acting immorally. After all the Torah never recommended a small kesubah and never said that it was an ideal – it just allowed it. The Torah was flexible so that you could determine in each generation an equitable division of assets based on the economic situation of that era.
The bottom line is that you can’t claim that you are following the Torah by saying that the husband receives 100% of assets. Yes, the way you structured the current marriage (with a small kesubah and no prenuptial) you have followed the Torah law. But if you structure a marriage with a large kesubah and with a prenuptial on 50% division of assets, you will also be following the Torah law.
It isn't so much the women who go to court, it is more like OHEL, JOFA, ORA,Shalom Task Force and other resha'im, mesisim u'medichim. Unfortunately, I have experience here. When we reject thtogether with posul gittin and mattir aishes ishe then things will be sane again. Also remember, people during time of divorce are very vulnerabl and on the other hand, if women at the outset want to do ratzon HaTorah, they wil
ReplyDeleteIn a nutshell you disagree with Hashem and think the Torah is immoral as it is written and was given to Klal Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteIf you have a larger Kesubah or have a prenuptial agreement
ReplyDeleteregarding the 50% division of assets, that is also following the Torah. All the
Torah says is (a) you have to follow your agreement and (b) the default
agreement – in the event of no other agreement - is that the husband receives
100%. The Torah does not indicate
anywhere that it recommends the default agreement or thinks that it is the
ideal. We have every reason to believe
that the Torah wants you to make an agreement for the 50% equitable
distribution of assets. And if you doubt
that, ask yourself do you think R’ Yisrael Salanter would give his wife just a small
kesubah or 50% if he was being divorced today?
Even regular husbands these days willingly give their wife 50% of
assets. Much of the disagreements is
regarding alimony and the fair amount for child support.
A lot of paragraphs, but your premise is nonsense.
ReplyDeleteBy your reasoning:
Having the husband agree to equitably distribute is in no way 'non halachic'.
In addition, you proved my point precisely with these words:
In the times of RG, "men were abusing Halacha."
Absolutely. And when you force them into court, you are NOT hindering divorce. Unless we arrive at a better, more equitable solution than the court process, they will not see it for what it is: disastrous. They way the civil system is set up, women have a fat paycheck awaiting by making up a host of allegations and complaints.
ReplyDeleteYou think I'm a proponent of that...which is crazy. But your position forces them into court. Unless more חכמה is inserted into this discussion, the tragedy continues.
Financial prenups. I think it's a good way to go.
ReplyDeleteI think that's silly, and, contrary to your claim, I highly doubt the entire "chareidi rabbinic world" has a single position on this rather minor point.
ReplyDeleteHow many grooms and brides are planning for divorce and prenups before they marry?
ReplyDelete1. There is absolutely no reason to believe the Torah wants or encourages anything other than the default here.
ReplyDelete2. No one can force a groom to agree or assign a prenup before marriage.
Forcing the husband to involuntarily accept equitable distribution is very much kneged halacha any way you slice and dice or present it. If he agrees to do so from his own volition, by all means he may. But if he wishes to keep all that is his, per halacha, and give her all that is hers per halacha, it world certainly be "non-halachic" to force him otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWomen who kneged halacha avail themselves to non-Jewish court and non-Jewish laws are not being forced to do so. They simply saw an opportunity to become thieves and steal someone's money and property and so engaged in criminal activity under the color of non-Jews.
ReplyDeleteWhy else has the Chareidi community rejected the YU/RCA type halachic prenups?
ReplyDeleteYes, the prenup seems to respond to this issue.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I'm finding it hard to reconcile your comment on the other thread (you're so concerned with an imprisoned Jew's 'rights' to kosher food) with your total lack of sympathy for any asset rights a wife might be entitled to after a marriage ends.
In one case, you want the system to bend over backwards to accommodate convicted felons. In the other, you want to wipe the floor with women for the 'crime' of getting divorced, irregardless of fault. What a calculus.
A wife has no rights to marital assets upon divorce. Other than what she brought in and the other exceptions. This is where you're going off the rails. She has no rights in this regard. Her rights are to the kesuba.
ReplyDeleteA Jew does have a right to kosher food. Even a bad Jew is entitled to not be fed pork and cheeseburgers. This fact is not a result of empathy. This fact is a result of halacha. An imprisoned Jew, even who did bad, is expected to eat kosher not treif.
The situation you describe of women choosing arkoyos over beis din since arkoyos gives them more money/property than beis din, would be cases where the women are abusing/violating halacha.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea, but the discussion is about making this standard in the future, not about what is happening right now.
ReplyDeleteI assume you are talking about the prenup ensuring a get. I believe the opposition is mainly b/c of the חשש of get me'usah, not b/c it's not nice to discuss the possibility of divorce with chasan/kallah, as catskill claimed.
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt it. My guess is that I've been around longer...........
ReplyDeleteand your claim is a tall order. .....
Wtvr, who cares
ReplyDelete