Friday, March 11, 2016

No, Science Is Not Faith-Based



Even the most well-learned scientist, working within the frameworks of the most robustly tested and verified theories, can never be certain that the next experiment or measurement will continue to provide the results that we expect. Last month, when the LIGO collaboration announced the direct detection of gravitational waves for the first time, it confirmed a new aspect of Einstein’s general relativity: one that had been predicted and whose consequences had been seen indirectly — through the decay of neutron star orbits — but one that we couldn’t be sure about until we validated it directly. But writing in the Wall Street Journal, Matt Emerson makes the erroneous claim that science is faith-based, too. Here’s the crux of his argument, followed by why it falls apart.

He quotes physicist Carlo Rovelli, who wrote that the discovery of gravitational waves was the realization of a “dream based on faith in reason: that the logical deductions of Einstein and his mathematics would be reliable.” He quotes Paul Davies, who wrote, “Just because the sun has risen every day of your life, there is no guarantee that it will therefore rise tomorrow. The belief that it will—that there are indeed dependable regularities of nature—is an act of faith, but one which is indispensable to the progress of science.” And then, based on the use of the word “faith” in these two sentences, he makes the following leap:

Recognizing the existence of this kind of faith is an important step in bridging the artificial divide between science and religion, a divide that is taken for granted in schools, the media and in the culture. People often assume that science is the realm of certainty and verifiability, while religion is the place of reasonless belief. [...] The fundamental choice is not whether humans will have faith, but rather what the objects of their faith will be, and how far and into what dimensions this faith will extend.

To be willing to make this statement is to deliberately misunderstand what the enterprise of science is, and how it fundamentally differs from any theological conclusion one could ever reach.

Faith, by definition, is the belief in something despite insufficient knowledge to be certain of its veracity. Some beliefs require small leaps of faith (the example that the Sun will rise tomorrow), as the body of evidence supporting that prediction is overwhelming, while others – the existence of dark matter, the inflationary origin of our Universe, or the possibility of room-temperature superconductivity — may still be likely, but may also reasonably turn out to be wrongheaded. Yet in every case, there are two key components that make the prediction scientific:

The prediction, or the belief that the outcome can be accurately predicted, is predicated on the existence of quality evidence.

As the evidence changes — as we obtain more, newer and better evidence — and as the full suite of evidence expands, our predictions, postdictions and entire conceptions of the Universe change along with it.

There is no such thing as a good scientist who isn’t willing to both base their scientific belief on the full suite of evidence available, nor is there such a thing as a good scientist who won’t revise their beliefs in the face of new evidence.

We may have had faith that Einstein’s predictions, and the existence of gravitational waves, would turn out to be correct, and that LIGO would make the greatest scientific discovery of the 21st century so far. But if it hadn’t been true — if advanced LIGO had reached design sensitivity and seen nothing for years, or if it had seen something that conflicted with Einstein’s theory — that faith would be instantaneously discarded, and replaced by something even better: a quest to discover how to extend and supersede Einstein’s greatest accomplishment to account for the new evidence. [...]

130 comments :

  1. These kind of discussions make my head spin. I mean, how do we know the whole world wasn't created five minutes ago as is, including implanted thoughts in our heads that we're older than five minutes old? There's nothing scientific about the premise that the universe is 15 billion years old, or always existed, or whatever. Science is still left with a discontinuity from when something came from nothing. It cannot be explained scientifically, so science begins with a leap of faith that in fact there is a universe.

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  2. The Forbes article is actually a summation of philosopher Karl Popper's theory of science. Popper proposed that the difference between science and religion is not that science is provable, because something might always come up to disprove a scientific theory. Rather, the difference is that science is falsifiable through experiment. Once a theory is falsified, a scientist moves on to a new theory instead of tinkering endlessly with the old.
    Religious adherents, on the other hand, cannot move on to another religion when an aspect of their faith is disproved. Faced with contradictions, they alter details of the religion to accommodate the contradiction and retain the core.
    Aggados once regarded literal are explained as parables as per the Maharal's voluminous Be'er Hagolah which works through Shas on this basis. Scientifically minded believers explain that six days of creation are six epochs. Excuses are produced to explain failed prophecies, etc. Dogs bark and the caravan moves on.
    Religions are indestructible, science changes with the times.
    Scientists relinquish their "faith" in a theory when faced with opposing facts. Religious faith survives forever.
    To cite Wikipedia:
    "Popper is known for his rejection of the classical inductivist views on the scientific method, in favour of empirical falsification: A theory in the empirical sciences can never be proven, but it can be falsified, meaning that it can and should be scrutinized by decisive experiments. He used the black swan fallacy to discuss falsification. If the outcome of an experiment contradicts the theory, one should refrain from ad hoc manoeuvres that evade the contradiction merely by making it less falsifiable."

    Popper also said something worth repeating in connection with the West's doctrine of tolerance:

    "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. – In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."[41][42][43][44]

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  3. Many facts indicate that the world is billions of years old, most simply, the fact that we are seeing stars whose light should take billions of years to reach us, as well as the decay rate of certain radioactive materials. It takes no giant leap of faith to accept that. But to refute the billions of year theory in favor of the literal Biblical account of creation by stating, without a shred of evidence, that the world was created with the light and radioactive phenomenon already underway (because after all, the universe may have been created five minutes ago) requires a light-year leap of faith. It's a question of degree. A leap of faith that crosses a stream or a leap that traverses the Atlantic.

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  4. Bet you cannot describe an experiment that could disprove the theory of evolution . Therefore by your reasoning, belief in the theory of evolution is not scientific.

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  5. Please stop playing games with words.

    The idea that a mishmash of energy/matter exploded x number of billions of years ago and then just neatly coalesced into what we call a universe along with the myriad forms of life on Earth requires a huge (make that "yuge") leap of faith.

    To put it simply, something has never been observed coming from nothing. Therefore, there is no "scientific" basis for anything existing. Ah, but the world does exist. So once we accept that on faith, we can measure it and make theories, that is, we can become scientists.

    Many of us have watched fictional movies that start with a scene bustling with life. We get pulled into an imaginary world for about two hours. But if we come out of the movie thinking the illusion was real, that might get us in trouble. What Hollywood can do with a film -- not to make a comparison -- G-d can do with space/time. That is, he can create a "set" and place us in it. Conceptually, that's what happened in the Six Days of Creation.

    This idea has been explored by science fiction writers like Stanislaw Lem and Douglas Adams, to name just two.

    Thus, speaking of "billions of years" is useful for astrophysicists, but if we begin thinking that scientific theory "proves" the age of the universe, then we may be getting ourselves into trouble.

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  6. What is the practical difference between your 'set theory' and science?
    So the world is actually only 6000 but God made it look 14 billion and also provided all the scientific proofs so that humans who study the universe will conclude that is is 14 billion.

    So what does anyone gain by claiming the world is only 6000? what is point? Because you think that otherwise it disagrees with the torah? This is the issue I find hardest to understand.

    There are no shortage rabbis including tana'im and rishonim who claim the creation story is a parable. The text itself contains two versions of creation. The definition of 'day' when there is no sun. The idea of 'time' when we know that it is just a variable relative to speed (bringing the ridiculous question - how fast was God moving when He created things). Our calender anyway starts from adam. Kabbalistic views. Only one item ever actually being created and everything else coming from that. etc.

    So what is the point on insisting that it was in 6 days 6000 years ago? Who are you trying to defend? It most certainly is not the torah or judaism because they have enough support to say that the creation story is a parable with deeper meanings.

    In the end, people who insist on literally 6000 years just show an illogical desperation that science must be wrong and an ignorance of the depth of the torah.

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  7. I was only discussing the reasonableness of the world being billions of years old, the point Joseph Orlow mentioned. Whether it is more logical to posit the mysterious beginning of existence to a mysterious first cause which is totally beyond our comprehension in its ability to exist without a former cause of its own, or to leave the the beginning of existence an open question is the bedrock disagreement between believers and non-believers.
    No one has observed something coming from nothing, nor has anyone in modern times observed G-d. Both need huge leaps of faith. But to say that the world is billions of years old does not as plenty physical evidence points in that direction.

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  8. Good question. Atheism and agnosticism may indeed require as much faith as religious belief.

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  9. " we are seeing stars whose light should take billions of years to reach us"

    No need in being so. See Breishis 1:14 Vvayomer Elokim yehi meoros birkia... that is the creation of them.

    1:17 Vayiten osam Elokim birkia hashomoyim lehoir al ho'oretz... that is placing them into position.

    See Rashi 14 Miyom rishon nivrou, uvirvi'i tzivo aleihem litlos borkia, vechein....

    So there you have it, what in your mind takes Billions of years, Hashem does it an instance. The same was with the trees that gave forth fruit right away something that would take years, but didn't need proof in the layers under the bark of the tree. Neither did it take nine months to give birth for Adams children. The premise of your yardstick is faulty. The same happens with a baby eagle piggybacking on the mothers back. Veligduloso ein cheker. vek"al

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  10. No matter how old you think this world is, there was a point "before that". And so I ask how did "that" all happen. Answer, God. There's all the proof you need in God. If someone tells you that he put some metal pieces in a box and shook it and out came a car, you would laugh and call him crazy. Yet you believe that's what happened with the most complex thing, the world!!!!!

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  11. I think we should petition the Supreme Court to disallow teaching evolution in public schools, on the grounds of the Establishment Clause.

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  12. If 6 days is a parable, then the forefathers, Exodus and Sinai might be a parable, prophecy in general might be polemics, and all mitzvos might become theoretical concepts for intellectual appreciation.

    Changing the basic meaning of the text to anything other than unbroken tradition has it is a very slippery slope.

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  13. The original question, raised in support of the notion that science is no more solid than any other belief, was whether scientists claim that the world is billions of old is no more valid than believing that the world was created five minutes old.

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  14. (Corrected version) The original question, raised in support of the notion that science is no more solid than any other belief, was whether scientists' claim that the world is billions of old is no more valid than believing that the world was created five minutes ago.

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  15. I asked both Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Kaminetsky whether it was apikorsus to believe that the world is older than 6000 years old and both said no. They both said that there are medrashim that indicate an old world.

    Bottom line there is no "mesora" on the subject but rather different views

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  16. Zalman Schachter (SR"Y) once asked the Lubavicher Rebbe why in was necessary to believe that Creation took place over a period of 6 "days" (whatever a day could possibly mean, without a reference to a rising and setting sun).

    The Rebbe replied that without the fundamental belief in Hashem creating the universe in 6 "days" (whatever that might mean), there can be no significance to a 7th day of rest. The concept of Shabbos is lost and without Shabbos the Jewish religion is totally pointless, because Shabbos is our declaration of our belief in a Creator.

    As to the question as to why it is a necessary part of Judaism to believe that creation took place less than 6,000 years ago, I think that the stress placed on a precise chronology, emphasizes the validity of Mesorah, an unbroken continuum of our faith. Thus Judaism is justified not by a system of observation, experimentation and theories, but rather by the transmission of our Tradition from parent to child and from mentor to disciple without any gap directly attributable to original Adam who bore witness to his own creation.

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  17. We have been there before. It is an argument that reinforces the believer but does not convince the skeptic.

    It is obvious that if it were possible to produce a car by such a process - you still would continue believing in G-d.

    Or put another way - what would need to happen for you to stop believing?

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  18. That is only because we know of other methods to manufacture cars. Therefore, assuming that this particular car came about by means of shaking parts in a box is silly.

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  19. I asked both Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Kaminetsky whether it was apikorsus

    With all due respect, these two great people are not in any way authoritative in their views when they are on their own. It is important to note that they have both allowed themselves to seemingly bend the Torah to conform with their understandings of right and wrong. These are things that you have exposed to the public. I am not commenting about the actual age. However, if there no other reputable and notable rabbis who hold this view, then I do not see how the views of Rabbis Belsky and Rabbi Kaminetzky can be taken as authoritative on their own.

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  20. Quite the opposite, if I could make I car that way I wouldn't believe in God.
    The point is, if everything has to make sense in order for someone to believe in God, then they don't really believe. It's like the peasant that thinks Einstein is wrong because it doesn't make sense to him. If there is a God, then that means he his inherently smarter than you and things that don't make sense to you, still might be true.

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  21. The Teshuvos Harashba and R' Sadya Gaon both discuss when we can change the basic meaning. See emunos v'deos in the beginning of his section on Techiyas Hameisim.

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  22. Before the yetzer hara of avoda Zara was destroyed, the nisayon was believing in an idol as opposed to God, but everyone believed in a higher being. Now that the yetzer hara was abolished, the nisayon is being an atheist.

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  23. But Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Kaminetsky both signed on the bogus seiruv against Aron Friedman. It appears that these Rabbis both perceive the Torah differently than both Rabbis Eidensohn as evidenced by the latters' contributions elsewhere on this blogspot.

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  24. What Dov would believe absent the proof from design is irrelevant when discussing the validity of the proof. This argument has convinced countless skeptics of God's existence, and continues to do so. Countless others reject it. So what?

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  25. But aren't mitzvos from the torah also not taken literally? Do you wear tefilin between your eyes? Do you take an eye for an eye. etc.
    All the mitzvot in the torah are 'parables' and we need the oral law to define them. If you believe that torah laws are to be taken literally you are a karite.
    When it comes to the stories, the torah is not a history book and it only tells us what we need to know in the way we need to know it. In general assume that it is all true; we even have a mitzva of remembering many things such as the wonders in egypt. As jews we believe in declared miracles but what we don't have to believe in is stories that contradict logic. The rambam found that the story of the angels with avraham, the snake, the creation story and maybe other things went against his understanding of how things work and he declared them parables. He even theoretically considered that creation was not exnihilo and stated that had it made sense it would still fit in with the torah.

    We are not changing the basic meaning of the text; it is the current religious worldview that has declared, illogically, that everything is to be taken literally. Some things we have a mesora for, other things are having new mesorahs incorrectly made up about them.

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  26. Are you making the ridiculous claim that I must disagree with them on everything?!

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  27. The Rambam didn't believe that creation was 6 literal 24 hour days.

    The precise chronology is interesting but it is clear that the Ramban disagreed with you view

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  28. They are not the only ones Torah Shleima has a long list of medrashim which indicate a universe more that 6000 years.

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  29. Surely the opposite. Thinking the world is only 6000 years old is the same as thinking it came into existence 5 minutes ago. For both you need to believe that it appeared 'as is'. Science on the other hand assumes that the world went through a gradual process to arrive as we see it now.

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  30. I'm not arguing about the "age" of the universe. I'm arguing about the method of the universe forming and the measurement of time. Einstein taught us that time and space can be stretched and compressed like taffy in a candy machine.

    For example, I watched a video a while back where Elon Musk invites people to join his rocket ship company. He gives a walk through of the manufacturing facility. At one point he shows a rocket engine being made by a 3-D printer.

    Now, let's do a thought experiment. Take that rocket engine back fifty years and show it to a rocket scientist. He would examine the rocket. The engine is all one piece. It is made from a metal that cannot easily be cast in a mold. After pondering about it, he would conclude that it would take 500 years to make such an engine by melting one tiny drop at a time with a craftsman applying the drop.

    The scientist from the past is evaluating the engine one way, without considering how the engine might be built by designing it on a computer and printing it out, a process that might take considerably less than 500 years.

    In conclusion, we weren't there at creation. We rely on the Torah to tell us how long it took. If we do a separate analysis and come to a different conclusion that matches a Medrash, how good that is. But that does not necessarily contradict the plain meaning.

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  31. So when it comes to creating a world with complex beings and you have two ways of going about it, on one hand God and on the other hand shaking some particles together, you think God is the sillier method?

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  32. I don't understand why you would compare natural processes to shaking a box. This very old 'watchmaker' argument is not a very good one. You can look out your window and see natural processes proceed apparently on their own accord.

    You could perhaps use it to question how the laws that control nature and physics came into being but that could be countered by saying if they would be different, we would just have a different universe with different laws.

    The whole idea of evolution makes the watchmaker argument meaningless as it basically says that with gradual process, the most successful can become more complex. It is perfectly logical to see how tiny yet productive steps can improve something.

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  33. You actually can observe the results of the big bang. There is leftover cosmic radiation everywhere that you can track. You can also see that the universe is still expanding outwards from the original blast.
    I sometimes think that religious people actually think scientists are idiots who just sit around making up random rubbish without bothering to prove anything.

    Believe it or not but just because someone chooses to remain ignorant about a subject doesn't mean that the subject matter is not true.

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  34. You are basically saying that God created light from stars that never existed. Next time you look into the sky think about how there aren't really any stars there and you are just seeing light put there by God to fool you into thinking there are stars.

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  35. Actually the fact Rabbi Eidensohn thought highly enough of both these rabbonim in the past is what makes their actions in regard to the Epstein family more egregious. I used to think extremely highly of a particular rabbi until he turned out to be a blatant liar. It does not change my acceptance of Torah I learned from him earlier.

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  36. Two points: First, not every wrong statement is apikorsus. For example a statement that New York City is the current capital of the United States is wrong, but it is not apikorsus; it is simply wrong. Your wrote that the you asked Rabbis Belsky and Kaminetsky whether it is apikorsus to believe that the world is more than 6,000 years, ago, not whether that belief is erroneous . I believe that the world is less than 6,000 years old , but I think that to believe otherwise is not apikorsus, just wrong.

    Second point, am i making the claim that one MUST disagree with Rabbis Belsky and Kaminetsky on everything? No, not necessarily. But i am making the claim that their opinion carries less weight than yours, and that it is beneath you to bolster any argument that you might present by citing them as authorities. By their unscrupulous activities that you have brought to light they have forfeited the right to have their opinions on Torah matters count any more than that of any Baale Buss, which as we know, is the opposite of Daas Torah.

    And that is not a ridiculous claim.

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  37. "You can look out your window and see natural processes proceed apparently on their own accord."
    Duh that's how they were created. Something that constantly occurs from start to finish isn't evolution.

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  38. Huh? What have you been drinking?

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  39. When the big bang banged, did it bang existing matter or did it bang along matter out of nowhere into existence all over the place. Was the bang orderly and precise so it formed perfect spheres, balanced out their gravitational forces in concentric circles while various layers formed inside the crust with the water on top? Did the bang order a certain hierarchy of living entities with their chain food supply. Next time you go to the supermarket check and see if the food has been put there just to fool you.

    According to the laws of motion, who and what percipitated or interrupted the peace and quiet of bazillions of years into a bang? On second thought, never mind, it really doesn't matter.

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  40. Oh dear. That is exactly what evolution is. That is exactly what everything in nature is. A long slow process that started a very long time ago.
    e.g. You look at a mountain and say God waved a wand and puff. Others understand how the earth's plates moved and formed them - in fact are still moving and changing them today.

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  41. it basically says that with gradual process, the most successful can become more complex.

    That's very difficult to hear, given that the organism at each step has no sense of a final goal. Many of the interim steps would have no utilty except in the context of a larger system, which does not yet exist, and toward which there is no guidance by a higher intelligence (according to this theory). This is the crux of Michael Behe's argument in The Black Box. His example is the supposed evolution of the eye, which contains interdependent mechanisms, each of which is useless on its own.

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  42. You need to accept that this isn't a case of particles 'shaken together'. If we are talking about evolution, it is more like changes in dna that cause changes to the animal. Scientists today can actually manipulate dna to make animals glow or give fish legs. No one says a fish was shaken and grew legs. Its dna mutated.

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  43. If that is what your faith hangs on I feel bad for you. Try reading rabbi Sacks' book 'the great partnership'; he explains why you shouldn't be mixing God and science.
    Believing in an ancient world, evolution and science are not reasons not to believe in God. It is so sad that religious people today feel that those are the choices. It is a testament to the failure of religious education.

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  44. a) What is R' Shternbuch's source that a majority of contemporary gedolim have the power to determine what is kefirah even if there are sources in Chazal and Rishonim that say otherwise?

    b) What does he mean that it is kefirah, but someone who believes it is not a kofer?

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  45. Funny how evolution has sped up, we now see it's effects in less than "billion of years." Last i checked, us humans are being blamed for all the changes in the atmosphere. What seems normal to you, seems ludicrously silly to me.

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  46. Histakol b'orasah ubara Alma. Yes us Jews believe God can wave a wand a puffa mountain appears.

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  47. I don't understand that. Are you saying that we should believe that God literally 'rested'? He had back ache maybe? Are you saying that it took Him a whole day to create something? Perhaps He had 24 hour shifts and then a tea break?
    As far as I can see, any attempt at explaining creation literally just anthropomorphises God; which I think is technically heresy.

    But what this has to do with shabbos? 6 stages of creation, then a rest period. God represents them with the days of week. I fail to see why that should make shabbos any less important.

    What makes you think we have a testimony from adam? I wasn't aware avraham had any spiritual connection with his ancestors. His greatness was that he found God by himself.

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  48. I did not write that, so I have no idea where you got that idea from.

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  49. What you are saying is, Hashem can create Malachim that can travel in a blink of an eye from heaven to earth exceeding the speed of light, however, he was not able to place the Planets into it's path while exceeding the speed of light. Hashem governs the laws of physics, not the other way around. Mi sheomar lashemen sheyadlik, hu sheyomar lechoimetz sheyadlik. Do you also think that the Sun was banged from a separate dough and a separate bang? The Earth revolves around it's own axle in addition to circling in a yearly path, is that also from the original bang force or some phantom entity blowing a wind?

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  50. BTW, the light was not created separate and apart from the shining star. See pasuk 16: According to Einstein, nothing in the Universe can exceed the speed of light, but Hashem was able to create the world "Uvoso kalilo" as in be'H'iborom. Can you or Einstein explain that?

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  51. Do you think that angels are physical beings to whom the laws of physics, and concepts such as "travel," apply? I remind you that the term "physics" has to do with physical items, as the term itself indicates, not spiritual beings.

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  52. I don't know if you are just trolling but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    1) You fail to understand how light works. Think of it as a train leaving the source/station. The light we are seeing when we look at a star is the 'train' that left that station billions of years ago. If you believe that the world is only 6000 years old, it is as if you are saying that God just dropped a train near the end of the track possibly without even bothering to make the station. We we look at a star we see the train, not the station.

    2) Travelling from heaven to earth in a blink of an eye? Heaven has a physical location that requires moving distance to arrive there? What are you talking about?
    3) Perhaps look up what the rambam thinks angels are
    4) We know exactly how the sun and and the stars were made. And how the planets were made. You can quite easily look it up. This is an astonishing example of how because you don't know something you assume no one does.
    5) Are you asking why the earth rotates? It is called inertia. Again, just do research.

    In general, if there is anything that you don't understand just do some research about it and it will be explained. No need to attribute it to a miracle.

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  53. That is irrelevant. No one knows what caused the big bang. That happened before the universe, before even time started if you can get your head round that. I believe it was God.
    If you want to learn what happened since then, there is plenty of available information including exactly how elements, stars and planets were formed. Perhaps you should read some science before you mock it.

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  54. Right, so God created this perfect working system for making mountains that can actually be seen in motion today yet you believe He just waved a wand. Why, why would you want to think that? What inner need do you have to mock the wondrous natural system God made.

    You are like someone who walks into a factory and sees all the robots building a car yet instead of appreciating the owner for programming the robots and creating the system you mock him and say that was just to fool the ignorant and really he just magically made the car appear. I just don't understand your logic.

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  55. Since when does not believing in evolution mean all that gibberish. What's so difficult to believe that God waved a wand and then poof a mountain appeared and then God waved the wand again and the laws of nature cane into existence. I understand that you only believe that God can exist within the confines of what some scientists think are possible. I on the other hand don't limit his power. If it needs to make sense to you then you don't believe God is above your understanding, making him a mere mortal.

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  56. Your right, emunah pshuta is a failure. I'll let the rishonim who believed that to be the ikar know that you disagree so they must be wrong.

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  57. Do you also believe that He can have a physical body because otherwise it would restrict His ability or that He can create a mountain that He can't move? Likewise would you say denying the trinity also is restricting His power?

    The world was either created instantly or not.

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  58. There are a range of views - my Daas Torah has a chapter on the subject.

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  59. Those paradoxes just further prove we can't really explain God using our earthly terms. He is above them. We don't use the adjectives because they are truth rather because it's the only way for us to grasp him in anyway.
    As I said before, would you give the time of a day to a peasant who argued on Einstein because Einstein didn't make sense to him? In order to understand God, you sometimes have to be God.

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  60. Correct, but to ridicule one way is for sure not one of the views

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  61. Sure, the moon may be made of green cheese also, and every time we find rocks there it may be that we looked in the wrong place, but scientists go after what appears most likely. Sometimes they get it wrong, that's what its all about, but often they get it right as we see from modern technology. Without science we'd still be using horse and cart.

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  62. Thanks for your kindness and generosity giving me all the benefits.

    Let me teach you a thing or two about how light works. They travel in waves and as particles which cannot exceed the speed of 186,000 mps as we know it. Think of it as a rocket leaving a streak of smoke leaving behind it. If we add boosters, the faster the speed, the less time it takes in relative to distance. The Torah says that hashem positioned the Meoros in the sky after having them already created with full blasting meoros on the first day. It did not take for Hashem to place it with the limitations of time not to exceed the speed of light. If you fail to believe that, why should anyone believe in billions of years. As an eye opener, your problem stems from looking at the light traveling from point B to A, *B* being the destination, while in actuality it is stated that it was moved from point *A* being the point of creation to point B, leaving a blazing trail of light without skipping a station. I hope this helps.


    2) Vayikro elov malach hashem min hashomoyim, according to you, by the time Avraham avinu saw the light or let alone heard the sound, kvar porach nishmoso, too little to late. Don't you think.

    3) I looked up in Rambam, and he says that these heavens of shivo rokiim containg the plantes are living entities, placed apart in the heavens with a distance apart, Vilon, Rokia, Zvul, meon, Shamayim etc.
    Angels, if you look up in Yechezkiel you will find them executing Hashem's will in an instance without delay, kamareh habazak holoch vashov. Think of them as electrons, or better yet as quarks if you will.

    4) This was meant as a question, according to the belief of the big bang theory, how is it that each planet banged away with filtered and different elements in it's consistency and makeup. Shouldn't they all consist of an amalgamation from the original dough? Therefore, being that you do happen to be in the know, would you care to explain?

    5) Inertia is something that must come from an outside force acting upon it to begin with. Would you care to explain the double spin of Inertia having two vectors a) revolving around it's own axis while b) circling on a path of 365+ days? Are you trying to tell me that circling in tandem with a whole host of other planets in the theater of operations in our universe happened so perfectly and orderly with a sudden bang? These questions are just a drop in the bucket and so far *no one* was able to explain. The best they can do is calling it by different names, a force, intelligent design vechol minei shemos hanirdofim, of which to us bonim lamakom know it as Bore Kol haolamim. At the end of the day, everything is a miracle, and it is Hashem that put all these miracles that you call Teva. Omarti echkemo, vehi rechoka memenu. We all know good and well that we absolutely do not fathom hashem's unlimited kol yachol, and whichever way you slice it, you get back to the same starting point. We do not ask, ma lemalo uma lemato, you will NEVER fathom.

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  63. If G-d can create yesh miayin, what prevents him to create in six days?

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  64. Do you understand that at the Dor haflagah, the earth parted, ki beyomv niflegah ha'aretz? Or the sinking hole of Korach just in the right instance, or the parting of the yam Suf/ yarden etc. It is Hashem that makes and breaks teva, period.

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  65. The DNA is the program that Hashem composed at time of conception in it's full and it's entirety.

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  66. The kapoires was made in the image of Kruvim, shesh knofayim le'echod etc. Humans also have a spiritual part to them, vayipach beapov nishmas chayim. Before matan Torah Hashem consulted with them. ...Olim veyordim bo...

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  67. It is not necessarily true that there was a point "before that". Time is inside the universe so before the big bang there was no time and therefore no "before". It might be a difficult concept but it makes sense.
    It is like asking who made God - it is a nonsense question because creation implies beginning which implies time but by definition God is out of time.

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  68. The fact there is no final goal is what makes it understandable. It would make no sense to say something accidentally developed towards a specific target. How would the mutations know what they were targeting?
    The whole point is that there is no final goal except "whatever happens to work" at that stage. A developing eye contains lots of random mutations, some did things, others didn't, and it is pure coincidence that at one point some of those mutations together did something useful. (It is not chance that the mutations that worked were inherited of course.)

    You could say God directed it but it is not necessary. Why would God have created a flawed system that required His direction; do you think Him incapable of creating a system that works by itself?
    The irony is that while scientists can wrap their minds round an accidental self supporting system the religious man thinks it would have been too difficult for God to have made one.
    From that perspective it is the people who refuse to believe in evolution who are truly lacking in faith.

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  69. Are you saying that these rabbis themselves believe that the universe in older than 5776 years old? Or did they merely say that it is not apikorsus?
    I never dealt with the question whether it was apikorsus to believe in an old universe. My comment was in response to "David", who made the sweeping statement:
    "So what is the point on insisting that it was in 6 days 6000 years ago? Who are you trying to defend? It most certainly is not the torah or judaism because they have enough support to say that the creation story is a parable with deeper meanings.

    In the end, people who insist on literally 6000 years just show an illogical desperation that science must be wrong and an ignorance of the depth of the torah."

    The essence of his argument is that Torah and Judaism are in agreement with an old universe, because the creation story is not to be taken literally, while it is those ignorant of the depth of Torah who insist on the literal version of Creation. In other words, the true Judaism is the one that believes in an old universe, while those who believe in a young universe belong with the Karaites, who ignorantly cling to a literal interpretation of the Torah.

    To this I responded that on the contrary, traditional Judaism believes in a young universe. Every Chareidi school has always censored their science books to reflect that belief. And those who turn the Creation story into some parable are breaking with traditional Judaism (although possibly they may not be classified as apikorsim).

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  70. It does because that is the situation. You are watching a train moving along the track and you would rather believe that it suddenly appeared there than it started off at a station.
    Stating God created matter and the laws to govern it is hardly making God mortal.
    Thinking He walks around like a wizard choosing to grow a mountain here and add a pretty tree there however...

    And yes, God is 'limited' to doing things that are within His 'nature' or 'logical'. I seem to remember reb aryeh kaplan speaks about this. The rishonim also discuss this; I don't recall where at the moment.

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  71. Emuna is not a failure, having emuna is something that isn't true is. You should perhaps study a bit about what the rishonim say on these matters.

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  72. The point of natural selection is that beneficial mutations are saved. The problem is that there a system would have required numerous mutations, many of which are not beneficial except as part of a system that did not yet exist, in which case they would not be saved. Your response does not begin to address that difficulty.

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  73. I wrote:
    Changing the basic meaning of the text to anything other than unbroken tradition has it is a very slippery slope.

    That's the key: unbroken tradition.

    The Torah is a text that came with an oral tradition. Any deviation from unbroken oral tradition, whether to explain as literal what traditionally is not (such as the Karaites), or conversely, to explain homiletically that which is literal (such as some Orthodox apologists), is a deviation from the unbroken tradition.

    Chazal have warned of this dichotomy, see Kiddushin 49a "המתרגם פסוק כצורתו ... והמוסיף עליו ..."

    What's so terrible about using alternative textual interpretation to resolve the Torah with current scientific data?

    Because alternative textual interpretation is a slippery slope, which can very easily lead to derailing all of traditional Torah by undermining some of its most fundamental components.

    See
    שו"ת הרשב"א ח"א סימן תיד

    ע"כ מקצתם לא הניחו מקרא שלא הפכוהו ויאמרו הלא ממשל משלים הוא, ועשה לנו אברהם ושרה חומר וצורה ועקרו כל הגבולות לפרש י"ב בני יעקב י"ב המזלות ועמלק יצר הרע ולוט השכל ואשתו החומר ... ודעת אנ\שים אלו מד' ומעבודתו נגרע, וחוזרים לסורם הרע, כי לא שמענו רק רע ...

    שו"ת הרשב"א ח"א סימן תטז

    כי יאמרו מקצתם כי כל מה שיש מפרשת בראשית עד מתן תורה הכל משל, יהיו אלה למשל ולשנינה ... ובאמת מראים עצמם שאין להם בפשטי המצוות שום אמונה ... שאין להם חלק באלקי ישראל ולא בתורה שקבלו בסיני אבותיהם ... והגורם הגדול הזה אשר אהבו חכמות נכריות צידוניות מואביות ולספרי היוונים עשו כוונים ... ובזה יודיעו לכל שאינם מאמינים בחידוש העולם ולא במופתים שבאו בתורה כולם.

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  74. You haven't answered my question. Do you believe that there is a physical place called "heaven" from where there are physical angels who "travel in the blink of an eye," to use your words, to earth?

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  75. I believe there's an Eliyahu hanavi, and the three malachim that went to visit Avraham, lot, Hagar etc. ... I do not know if it catches the physical sense, probably the spitirtual sense or metaphysical sense. I believe in Hashem, and the yud gimmel ikrim, it is beyond the comprehension of humans, has no shape or form and space, but it's there { less assar depanui minei). In any case, they present themselves as if physical in the eyes of the beholder. Moshe rabenu went up to heaven to mekabel the Torah, I believe without having the exact words in describing it. I do not entertain these thoughts miyom sheomadti al da'ati, ki legdulato ein cheker. regarding our issue at hand, it is unneccessary to conclude that the world needs be brillions of years old utilizing the speed of light.

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  76. It is an entity that *is* referred to, even if my comprehension cannot fathom. Do you think Avimelech got physical makos from the malachim, he perceived it as such, and I don't own any explanation as to how. Ah beliv ah cn flahhh. It is belief mekubal meavoseinu. I rest my case.

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  77. 1) Not really sure what you are talking about. The only way for us to see star light in a 6000 year old universe is if God created the stars, and then separately, the light which would have been coming out of them. So we are seeing light that God created not light that was produced by stars. In fact, for all we know, maybe God didn't bother with the stars and they aren't even there.
    2) No idea what you are saying but I hope you don't think heaven is some physical mount Olympus. There is no sound or distance with heaven and angels. They are spiritual.
    3) The rambam doesn't believe angels have intelligence. He says they are forces not beings.
    4) The sun is like a big furnace. Inside the basic elements form other elements under heat and pressure. Eventually, when a sun explodes the elements float around in space. Their gravity starts making them join together which eventually form planets. In a nutshell.
    5) If it would have spun differently you would have different season, different planet orders etc. That is not relevant. The fact that it is just right to support life, for me, is a sign of the hand of God.

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  78. nI thought I was being clear when i was putting the word "day" in quotes, that the "days" of creation are not to be understood as 24 hour periods. Never mind scientific theories, time itself cannot be measured except relative to the changes taking place in outside point of reference. A "day" in our parlance refers to the passage of time from one sunrise to the next (between the Arctic and Antarctic Circles). For convenience sake people divided this period of time into 24 equal segments which they called "hours".

    But how can reference be made to a "day" relative to the time period between sunrises, when there has yet not been a sun (until the 4th "day") by which we can measure this time period. Unless, we can say that what is meant by the primordial "day" is that period of time which men after they were created would refer to as a "day". And in that period of time the Creator set in motion a process that by future reckoning appears to have taken billions of years. This logic is to my thinking somewhat fuzzy and strains credulity.

    "Pshat" does not mean literal translation. It means the simplest level by which the Torah can be understood. It may also include translating a verse metaphorically if this has been the traditional "pshat".

    I have seen comments made here that refer to the Torah narrative of Creation as a "parable" or an "allegory". I do not believe that this is so. I think that 'al pi pshat' Creation took six days. However, I do not believe that the Torah here makes reference to a 24 hour "day". That is illogical as I stated above. I think that by "day" the Torah is referring to some cosmic celestial "day" the meaning of which is known only to the Creator. That "day" might have taken up a period of time which we reckon to be 24 hours. But it could just as easily be referring to a period of time which we reckon to be 24 years, or 24 thousand years, or even 24 billion years. We simply do not know.

    (Neither must we be led to believe that the primordial "days" refer to any multiple of 24 time periods, since the celestial "day" might be a multiple of say, 3.789 weeks, years, centuries, eons, billions of years. Nor does each "day" of Creation necessarily need be each equal in duration in reference to our way of recording time. so the first "day" might be equal by our reckoning to 6 minutes, the second "day" 8 trillion years, and so forth.)

    So I feel safe in stating that while I believe in the Torah narrative of Creation, I cannot claim to understand it. This should not be problematic, for even the great physicist Richard Feynman is quoted as saying, " If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." I think he included himself in that statement.

    As to the "Mesorah" to Adam, the Talmudic rabbis assert that (although he found Hashem by himself) Avrohom broadened his understanding by studying with Shem ben Noach, who in turn studied with Metsushelach who studied with the original Adam. The Talmud relates how Adam recited Shirah to Hashem as he was being created.



    Although I disagree with many comments on this blog I cherish the opportunity to engage in meaningful dialogue with all contributors.

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  79. 1) It doesn't make any sense to put physical time limits on creation. God doesn't work 9 to 5 with two coffee breaks. I can't even understand what you imagine was happening during the '6 days'. Try and picture it with turning God into aslan.
    2) Where is the logic in creating a factory that produces cars by itself and then add ready made cars onto the conveyor belt?

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  80. I think you'll find that the rambam says He can't by definition as being perfect and unchanging. Miracles were either set bein hashmashos or are built into nature.
    I don't fully understand how that works with seemingly random things like moshe's staff but I have a lot to learn.

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  81. Exactly. So why do you insist on trying to say 6 day creation was literal when we have no way of actually understanding what God actually did?
    Wouldn't it be more rational to listen to what science says and perhaps admit that we can't possibly understand what God did during creation?

    This whole argument is basically: There are deeper meanings to what God did during creation that I can't possibly understand but as science is wrong I will insist that the simple understanding of the text is the absolute truth.

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  82. Don't even bother, my friend. You are beating a dead horse. Evolution has a din of tipshus and mishegas; I would not even honor it by calling it kefira or apikorsus. So there is really no one to talk to.

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  83. Is there a scientific explanation as to why every civilization has a seven day week? Why does every civilization need a week? And if they do need a week, why specifically a seven day week?

    (There may have been brief periods here and there where different day combinations were attempted. As far as I know, they never succeeded long term.)

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  84. You have no case. You still haven't written anything to back up your assertion, which I find ridiculous, that there are angels "that can travel in a blink of an eye from heaven to earth exceeding the speed of light."

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  85. 1) Not really sure what you are talking about.
    - Excellent point!

    2) No idea what you are saying
    - Gevaldig!

    3) The rambam doesn't believe angels have intelligence. He says they are forces not beings.
    - Intelligence man dechar shmei.

    4) The sun is like a big furnace.
    - Avraham avinu was thrown into a furnace. I caught the nut, but haven't seen the shell

    5) If it would have spun differently you would have different season
    - Had my grandmother have wheels, she could have been a bus. Even Paroh exclaimed Etzba Elokim hu. The sun come out tomorrow. Darkness will reign overnight.
    Outside of that your'e a great scholar. I have nothing more to add and no need to reply. ty

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  86. Creation was by the divine. Where do you draw the line when to apply the limits of Physics. Was it not the creator that created the laws of Physics? What makes a human tick, and what transformation takes place when he ceases to exist?

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  87. If you agree that we can't possibly know exactly what God did during creation, what's wrong with just falling back onto his written word. Pashut pshat is not only for children. The Torah is written that way for probably a pretty good reason.

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  88. I would assume that you agree that man was created whole and didn't come about gradually over time. That would pretty much squash the idea of evolution. So Yes, God created a train with the station and then pushed go.

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  89. 1) My Rebi in Cheder taught me that Hashem created with verbal commands. He did not roll up his sleeves to get things done.

    2) Hashem created Adam and Eve with the capability to reproduce, same with the animal Kingdom, and there is the answer to the chicken and egg theory. We already have driverless cars, but the problem seems to be you watch too much Spielberg.

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  90. I already rested my case. If I say A you say B, if I say Tomato you say Tomahto, it is what happened at the dor haflaga, and I refuse to bring it on again. Just go over it and see your taanu lo bechitim vehodu lezecher kodsho. Now that is what I call ridiculous. Maybe if you brush up on the moshol of the Chiger and the Suma will give you a head start, outside of that you are hopeless. Have a Kosher un freilechin Pesach

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  91. Do you think that malachim have the ability to think? Hashem consulted with them whether to give the torah batachtonim.

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  92. Read up on the Akeida, Hagar, Akdomis, Yechezkel etc. Whatever the case, you cannot focus, hip and hop all over the place. It is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

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  93. It states befeirush *YEHI MEOROS BIRKIA*, that is an entity that gives forth light ^simultaneously*. You are beyond ridiculous.

    It further states, vayiten osam birkia hashomoyim lehoir al ho'oretz, whay are changing my words in quoting the Torah. It is simply a waste of time with you. Are you just acting like a sore loser? Huh?

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  94. When hashem created Chava, was that physical or spiritual? Chacham balayla, vechalomot beaspamya

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  95. Yeshuas hashem keheref ayin, does hashem have a physical ayin? Voesso eschem al kanfei neshorim, are those physical eagles?

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  96. Adon Olam Asher molach beterem kol yetsir nivro.
    T-1,T-0, T+1, T... hevanta?

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  97. Here is a better one for you. When the twin towers fell, down crashed all kinds of debris, metal boxes, wirings, electronic boards, and midair they connected by banging each other into one piece, and the computer was born. That's what you call a big bang for the buck.Tze ubasser lasussim vachamorim.

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  98. If hashem waited patiently billions of years, and created the world for only 6,000 years, what's the rush?

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  99. "This very old 'watchmaker' argument is not a very good one."

    The fact that an argument is old, or very old, does not reflect on its soundness. Most axioms we live by, and which are the foundation of basic everyday cross-cultural logic, are in fact quite old.

    "You can look out your window and see natural processes proceed apparently on their own accord."

    You can look out your window and see cars proceed apparently on their own accord, so who needs an engine?

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  100. This is not the forum for, and I have no interest in, engaging in discussions of all matters of emuna and creation. I am just asking you to either confirm or deny whether you believe, as you indicated earlier, that heaven is a physical location from which malachim can travel to earth in the blink of an eye. You stated this to support the idea that not all types of physical travel are limited to the speed of light, and I just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly.

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  101. According to Rambam, Yes. See where he positions the Moon, and Torah says it is a physical creation. The Torah also says that malach shel eisav had to go back to heaven to say shira. Now you do the math and figure out the speed.

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  102. This is ridiculous. You can't actually take things like that literally. What does it even mean.
    You really need to stop thinking that God is some zeus creature who sits on a throne ruling a kingdom getting advice from angels. Any midrash along those lines is to give us an understanding into how to behave, not what actually happened. I'm pretty sure what you are thinking is heresy; it definitely is according to the rambam.

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  103. "natural processes proceed apparently on their own accord" You are making a very erroneous claim here. We do not see anywhere in Nature where undirected natural processes increase the total amount of information or complexity in the Universe.

    The concept of entropy includes a measure of the disorder in a closed system. Entropy can never decrease. The Universe began with an extremely low entropy state that cannot be explained by any natural processes.

    "Since a finite universe is an isolated system, the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that its total entropy is constantly increasing." (wikipedia article).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy#The_arrow_of_time

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  104. "Tosos kabozok", Just open a machzor it is full of descriptions from cover to cover with quotes from Sefer Yechezkel. You also say it every day, Veho'oifanim vechayos hakodesh...
    End of discussion!

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  105. See Sefer Yechezkel, all your answers are there. Do you prepare kos shel Eliyahu hanavi?
    No one yet captured a Malach and able to put in a Test Lab for analysis. If you can think of it as MetaPhysical and the laws of Supernatural applies might help you grasp virtual concepts. I for one have absolutely no problem with Emuna Pshuto, and use my imagination where I can. Veidach zil ugmor. And when you have a better definition, bevakasha. that is all my friend.

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  106. Therefore, the vikuach of moshe Rabenu of "Bassar vecholov" is heresy. My dear, you have yet a lot to learn and even more to explain. Ve'ein li esek benistarot. Over and out

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  107. Then please explain, "yeshuas hashem keheref ayin".

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  108. Whatever my reply, all you do is just ignore, but have nothing to say. Here is an example. See Breishis 6:4 Hanfilim hoyu bo'oretz...asher yovou bnei hoelo-hi el bnos ho'odom. Kindly explain

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  109. Archeologists in Israel just discovered in Midbar Yehuda in a cave heaps of Debris leftovers from creation, and still releases radiation with smoke. Some say that Fukushima was the clay the world had been formed from. Some scholars are looking for the Bison particle underground in a magnetic doughnut that can reproduce the big bang, and many protest that it might create a big black hole and our planet will disapper as Korach ve'edoso, never to be found. Ish al machnehu, veish al diglo. Regards from Mr. Spock vesiyato.

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  110. Call it manifestation if you will.

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  111. Right you are, my friend. Chaval al hazman.

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  112. Does Eliyahu Hanavi come to your house and take a sip? Wow, he must get really drunk if he drinks at every house. Grow up. The kos shel Eliyahu is a compromise opinion to fulfill the shittos harishonim that there needs to be five cups at the seder.

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  113. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Solar and lunar eclipses certainly comply with physics. And as for your deleted comment about the nefilim, take a look in the Malbim.

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  114. No, and no. What is your point?

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  115. Yes, according to most meforshim, for all three.

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  116. Then let's move on. Does Eliyahu hanavi go to Everyone's bris? And when there are two or more, each being in the other end of the world? And for who do they greet Baruch habo, by both - the Seder and the Bris?
    Did the three malachim eat tounge and breaded butter by Avraham?
    You still didn't explain whether the operation in creation of Eve was, physical, metaphysical, metaphor or other? Did hashem play surgeon? Did Adam miss one rib after the surgery?

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  117. Did Avraham speak to the Malachim? How did they communicate, sign or verbal language? Can they talk, do they have a voicebox?

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  118. The point is that something you haven't experienced you don't really know and cannot explain. If you bring me some deos that vary through the meforshim, that means they are not sure either. Can it possibly be, beam me up Scotty?

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  119. Who says the malachim do a *physical travel*. They do move from point A to point B, and it definitely is beyond any speed you or I can comprehend. I have no clue about sod habriah, but the psukim talk keloshon bnei odom kedei lesaber et haozen, v'ein li esek benistorot. You, throwing around malbim's wholesale but you can't even put them into your own words. I have no problems admitting my limitations ma she'ein hasechel haenoshi yochol lehasig. If the Mishnah states that hashem reserves shay olomos for tsadikim leosid lovo, so be it. I wouldn't make an attempt to explain whether they are physical, metaphysical, or otherwise. We'll see when we get there. These are not tangible things you can debate and argue, it is what it is.

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  120. I largely agree with this comment, your insult about me not being able to put the Malbim in my own words notwithsatnding. If you have trouble understanding it, I can explain it to you. But remember that you were the one who used the "travel" of the malachim to "prove" that there are entities that can go at faster than the speed of light. Your usage of the terms "point a" and "point b" compound this problem. Those terms are physical ones, and have no place n a discussion of spiritual entities.

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  121. Chamrei tarta mashma. Depends where it is. If it's on ground level it is a donkey, if it's in a basement, it is wine. Travel in loshon bnei odom is moving from one point to another physically as we know it. Movement of malachim, e.g. olim veyordim bo indicates a change of location in whichever language they execute that. Exceeding the speed of light is relative and done in their method of movement whichever that might be, comparative to earth time. Think of it like when in Rome, do as the Romans. Did the malachim really eat tounge as Avraham's guests, of course not. Same here. I don't have trouble understanding but not always do I have Malbim handy, my apologies.

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  122. 1: The Malbim notes that the end of that passuk, המה הגיבורים אנשי השם, is teaching that although some people considered them to be godlike, as in Greek mythology, where gods mated with humans, in fact that were merely great warriors.
    2: According to my memory, the passuk of עולים ויורדים בו is referring to a vision in a dream, not actual angels going anywhere.

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  123. 1) Torah is not Greek mythology. Yavou ... el bnos ho'odom remains difficult to comprehend. Rashi: asher yovou, yoldu anokim kemoisom is not myth. The Anakim Sheshay, vesalmay... Golyas haplishti were their descendants and had Etzba yeseiro on hands and feet.

    2)True, but the vision would take the format as when seen awake as by Avraham, Hagar, Eliyahu hanavi olo bisoro hashomaymo. Vayomesh choshech was perceived as if tangible. All I can say, Etzba Elokim hu.

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  124. And then you can ask the same question, how did God happen?

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  125. http://qz.com/638059/many-scientific-truths-are-in-fact-false/

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