Tuesday, June 16, 2015

The new reality of Orthodox women rabbis

Cross-Currents  by Rabbi Avraham Gordimer

We’re going to blink and there’ll be 100 Orthodox women rabbis in America that have been given ordination”. –R. Adam Mintz, professor of Talmud, Yeshivat Maharat

Within the week, three Orthodox-identified rabbinical ordination programs for women granted semicha (ordination) to their graduating classes. (Please see here and here.) While the mainstream organs of Orthodoxy do not recognize or approve of the ordination of women (here are RCA statements about the matter), the reasons for not accepting the legitimacy of semicha for women remain a mystery to some.

Various articles have been published about the topic (please see here for R. Hershel Schachter’s article); I would like to take one approach and provide some elaboration.

Halachic analysis of contemporary rabbinical ordination of women was first put forth by R. Saul Lieberman (please see here for R. Gil Student’s important presentation thereof), who in 1979 expressed his opposition to such on the part of Jewish Theological Seminary.

Although R. Lieberman’s tenure at JTS was the subject of controversy and was certainly not viewed favorably by Orthodox leadership, R. Lieberman was Orthodox and was very well-versed in our topic; his ruling on it is thus quite pivotal and precedential. R. Lieberman’s position was discussed in my initial article on rabbinical ordination for women, but that article focused more on the definition of Mesorah (Torah tradition). Let us turn here to the actual issue of semicha for women.

R. Lieberman demonstrates that even though modern-day semicha is not the original semicha that was conferred by Moshe upon Yehoshua and that continued to be conferred upon subsequent scholars until one-and-a-half a millennia ago, modern-day semicha is most certainly a carryover and model of the original semicha. The original semicha empowered one to serve as dayan, rabbinic judge, and that is exactly what contemporary semicha represents, as evidenced in the earliest of rabbinic literature that discusses the purpose and function of contemporary semicha. Since women cannot serve as rabbinic judges (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 7:4, with the exception of cases of binding arbitration, in which the status of dayan is forgone [Sanhedrin 24, Rambam Hil. Sanhederin 7:2] – and modern-day semicha is decidedly not modeled on this), the rabbinical ordination of women is not valid and is distortive of the very essence of semicha. To grant semicha to women makes no sense, and to do so would “make ourselves objects of derision and jest”, proclaimed R. Lieberman.
The end of the matter is that it is clear from the sources that being called by the title “rav” (“Rabbi he shall be called”) reflects on the fitness to issue legal decisions and to judge, and we should not empty the title “rav” of its meaning from the way it has been understood by the Jewish people throughout the generations. Since a woman is not fit to judge, and she cannot become qualified for this…
Those who promote the ordination of women as rabbis either erroneously assert that modern-day semicha is a novel contrivance that has no controlling precedent, or they turn to the example of Devorah the Prophetess, who judged the Jewish People. (Shoftim 4:4)  However, Devorah did not have semicha and did not sit on the Sanhedrin. Rishonim (medieval halachic authorities) explain that she either was a leader and teacher, that she practiced binding arbitration, that she provided instruction for dayanim, or the like. To use Devorah – someone who did not have semicha and did not qualify for it – as the precedent for women rabbis is quite a stretch.

Unfortunately, many of those involved with the ordination of women lack fealty to the fundamentals of Torah. For example, one of the women just ordained with “Maharat” semicha rejects halachic marriage, and she has created her own alternatives to Kiddushin and Nisu’in, halachic marriage, as presented in her book Tradition and Equality in Jewish Marriage: Beyond the Sanctification of Subordination.

One of the rabbis who ordained two women last week at an Orthodox-identified coed semicha program has written that one need not believe that the Torah reflects accurate facts and that it was dictated to Moshe via oral prophecy. This rabbi, who prominently touts his Orthodox credentials, has written that God did not necessarily speak to Moshe in a literal sense, but that the entirety of Torah was a non-historical development in which God communicated by placing His existence and truth in man’s heart:
The significance of the biblical narrative according to this tradition rests not in its historical accuracy but in the underlying spiritual content.
The purpose of the Torah, according to the “sod” tradition is not to convey historical truths but rather to gesture toward a deeper and more profound spiritual reality. It is possible, then, to accept that the Torah in its current form is the product of historical circumstance and a prolonged editorial process while simultaneously stubbornly asserting the religious belief that it none the less enshrouds Divine revelation.
God stirs our hearts and He stirs in our hearts; that is the revelation. The rest is interpretation.
This rabbi’s theology is extremely close, if not identical, to the Conservative movement’s notion of a divinely-inspired Torah – which is hence not literal, not fully binding, and is subject to evolving revelation/modification, for it was not actually commanded to Moshe at Sinai.

Inclusion and acceptance of rabbis who proffer heretical views has sadly become de rigueur in the “Open Orthodox” rabbinate, whether dealing with the ordination of women or anything else. One musmach of Open Orthodoxy, whose apostasy is well-known (please see here for older material, and here, here, here, etc. for more recent assertions of this rabbi that the Torah was written by men), was recently honored by International Rabbinic Fellowship (IRF), the Open Orthodox rabbinic organization (whose vice president is a female rabbi), to serve as editor of a new book about the halachic significance of brain death. Apparently, IRF is not bothered by the fact that the editor of its new halachic publication denies the Torah’s singular divine authorship.

The chair of the department of Talmud at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah (YCT) recently reposted his approach to Torah She-b’al Peh, the Oral Law:
Chazal were the R. Riskin’s of their time. They too were committed to creating a yiddishkeit which is in constant dialogue with their ethical sensibilities. They read Torah with a critical lens and whenever they encountered a perceived injustice they did whatever they could (within legitimate boundaries) to undo the challenging misread.
This week’s parsha is a perfect example. 
Simply read, the biblical sotah procedure seems capricious and patriarchal. The rabbis, incorporating Divinely ordained hermeneutics, drastically revised the procedure. The result: a process that is sensitive and somewhat egalitarian. 
They were the progressives of their time, and, relative to their milieu, quite radical. They too were vilified, but in the end they prevailed. Ultimately their enterprise received the divine imprimatur. 
It is because of their courage that Rabbinic Judaism is still around today. Their interpretations allowed Judaism to survive, thrive and ultimately triumph.
This rabbi describes Chazal, the Sages of the Talmud, as revising Torah law to meet their own sense of ethics, and that the hermeneutic tools for this are divinely-sourced, granting Chazal poetic license, as it were, to reform Biblical Law that they find objectionable. This radical approach to halachic authorship is clearly contradicted by the Rambam in his Introduction to Mishneh Torah and his Introduction to Perek Chelek, Yes, Chazal have at their disposal certain legislative tools, but reforming the interpretation of Biblical Law to conform to human ethics is not in the arsenal and violates the divine character of Torah Law. Please read the referenced words of the Rambam and see for yourself.

Although it does not pose the stark theological objections discussed heretofore, a YCT rabbinical student and his bride recently created a novel wedding ceremony, whose link was proudly posted in various fora by YCT rabbinic leadership:
We made a list of particular needs that we had, and researched potential solutions. We wanted the women to feel involved during the tisch, we wanted the bedeken to be a moment where we each covered the other, and we wanted female participation under the chuppah. 
As I was marched in, on my brothers’ shoulders, for the bedeken I covered Marti’s face, and she too covered me. She replaced my regular kippah, with a new kippah that she made for me. As I kneeled in front of her, it was one of the holiest moments of my life. 
Our good friend, Rabbi Rachel Silverman, recited it (an eighth beracha, for the Sheva Berachos) for us under

It is regrettable that Open Orthodoxy is becoming the new Conservative movement, but that is precisely what is happening. Denial of a Singular Divine Author of the Torah, denial of the objective truth of Torah She-b’al Peh, ordaining women rabbis, creating gender-modified rituals, andso much more; the “Orthodoxy” has been swallowed up by the “Open”.

The Torah requires the Jew to subordinate his ideologies and actions to God, to the objectively true and authentic mandate of Sinai. Reshaping Judaism as we see fit has no place in this mandate. Let us recommit to Hashem and the eternal, unchanging charge of Sinai, and pray that all of our brothers and sisters will join us.


  1. I think there was a difference between r Saul Lieberman in the JTS, and the OO movement. Lieberman was trying to keep the JTS as close to Orthodoxy as possible. I don't know if his theology was apikorsus, but the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that as long as he is there, then JTS would be ok. OO seem to be pushing to the left wing of Conservative, not the right wing.

  2. But see Sefer HaChinuch mitzva 152 who explicitly prohibits women from paskening halakha when they are drunk - by inference they are permitted to pasken when they are not drunk.

    ונוהג אסור ביאת מקדש בשכרות בזמן הבית בזכרים ונקבות, ומניעת ההוריה בכל מקום ובכל זמן בזכרים, וכן באשה חכמה הראויה להורות. וכל מי שהוא חכם גדול שבני אדם סומכין על הוראתו, אסור לו לשנות לתלמידיו והוא שתוי, שהלמוד שלו כמו הוראה הוא, כמו שאמרנו.

    Similarly see Choshen Mishpat 7:4 who writes that a woman may not be a judge. Birkei Yosef (Chida) infers from this that she may be a posek of halacha.

    And for the record, Rabbi Gordimer, personal attacks on the individuals involved in these stories (whether correct or not) weaken your halakhic argument rather than strengthen it.

  3. There is no longer any right wing of conservative jewry. UTJ, the closest you have, has not existed for several years.

  4. maybe someday rav gordimier will publish something besides his obsession with OO. maybe one day he'll write a blistering attack on rabbis who go to prison or protect those going to prison.

  5. ברכי יוסף חושן משפט סימן ז

    יב. אף דאשה פסולה לדון, מכל מקום אשה חכמה יכולה להורות הוראה. וכן מתבאר מהתוספות (יבמות מה: ד"ה מי. גיטין פח: ד"ה ולא. ועוד) לחד שינוייא, דדבורה היתה מלמדת להם דינים. וכן תראה בספר החינוך דבסימן פ"ג, הסכים דאשה פסולה לדון, ובסימן קנ"ב בענין שתוי כתב וז"ל, ומניעת ההורייה וכו', וכן באשה חכמה הראויה להורות וכו'. ע"ש.

    הערות על ברכי יוסף חושן משפט סימן ז הערה טו

    טו. ובחי' הרשב"א בב"ק ט"ו ע"א, על דבורה הנביאה: "לא שהיא בעצמה דנה אלא שמלמדת להם ודנין על פיה". ובחידושי הרמב"ן שבועות ל' ע"א: "מנהגת שעל פיה ובעצתה היו נוהגין זה עם זה כדין מלכה". ועיין מ"ש רבינו אות י"א.

  6. And I have a simple way to fulfill Rabbi Mintz's prophesy. Take the staff and students at YCT and do a Bruce Jenner on them. Chop chop.

  7. @Ben Waxman - are you attacking Rabbi Gordimer because you think he is wrong or because he doesn't attack all rabbis you feel need to be attacked?

    To put it another way, should it also be said about you that perhaps you will publish something besides your obsession with rabbis who go to prison or protect those going to prison? Or are you simply saying that Rabbi Gordimer should emulate your wide ranging concern with all area of rabbinical misdeeds?

  8. You are insulting the conservative movement. They were nowhere this bad. Conservative cut out of few things, they didn't make up whole new practices, flipping gender roles on their head.

  9. Part of the cause here is the apologetic and false teaching that women are more spiritual than men - for which there is no actual Torah source. The logic would be, if we are more spiritual, then we should be leading.

  10. Open Orthodoxy has never been Orthodox since Day 1, when Mr. Avi Weiss founded it. No one should be surprised with what they're doing.

  11. it is true that i don't have much respect for RG. i don't have a problem with opposition to OO, women rabbis, or any of those areas. different strokes and all that. however, RG is something of a one trick pony and personally (yes, just my opinion) i find his approach to things to be very small minded. his article on rav riskin exemplified this small mindedness.

    but again, i agree that this is just my opinion.

  12. Personal attacks can have no logical bearing on a Halachic argument at all - whether to bolster or to weaken.

  13. Can you give a source for the Rebbe's statement?

  14. UTJ? Are there not enough abbreviations to go around?

  15. No need for gratuitous disrespect. It's Maharat Avi Weiss.

  16. The old time conservative - i'm not talking about the current which really are reform - still resembled Jews. It was traife but it wasn't completely perverse. CO is something else entirely. The contort everything.

  17. So I take it you will stop eating OU certified food??

  18. This is a tempest in a teapot. Open Orthodox, or as I like to call it, Feminine Orthodoxy, will simply become its own movement and spawn yet another bunch of synagogues/temples that actual Orthodox folks won't daven in.

  19. It's not that Rav Gordimer is incorrect in his criticism of the OO's but the argument could be advanced that criminal and pedophile rabbonim are a far bigger threat to Torah Judaism than a few well-meaning women who think they're rabbis because someone gave them a degree with the title.

  20. You are being silly. A Maharat is a graduate of Yeshivat Maharat. Rabbi Weiss is just a plain Rat.

  21. When you say CO do you mean OO?

  22. I heard this or read it a few times, but it also appears here:

    "In Chaim Dalfin’s Conversations with the Rebbe (LA: JEC, 1996), pp. 54–63, Prof. Haim Dimitrovsky relates that when he was newly hired at JTSA, he asked Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of Lubavitch whether he should remain in the Seminary, and the response was "as long as Lieberman is there.""

  23. the OU is a lot more than one person.

    secondly, what is this bloody all or nothing approach????? why can't people disagree in one area and be perfectly willing to accept the other in another area???

  24. given the number of news stories involving rabbis and crime, it sounds like a growing issue to me.

  25. That's a pretty stupid argument. Are we to ignore all sins against the Torah and Judaism if it doesn't reach the level of pedophilia since pedophilia is worse and needs more attention? Of course not. Completely perposterous.

  26. I wouldn't take a JTS professor's claim at its word. Especially a claim claiming the Rebbe said the JTS is okay.

  27. @Sea Slipper - what year or historic event divides the old time Conservative from the new?

    Is it the ordination of women? Or the heter to drive to shul on Shabbos? Or were you thinking about something else?

  28. Thanks for the helpful feedback, David.
    No, that wasn't my point which was clearly missed. Rav Gordimer repeatedly pointing out the flaws of OO is like someone whose house is on fire worrying that the lamp in the living room might have a bulb that needs replacing. It's not that he (and others) criticize OO, it's that OO is all they seem to criticize. Silence can be deafening.

  29. That's not the same thing that you said!

  30. @Ben - your claim that Rabbi Gordimer is a one trick pony is false. He has written on a wide range of topics - e.g.,

    Why not be honest and say you hate his guts because he severely criticized Rabbi Riskin. Or put another way - if he hadn't criticized Rabbi Riskin you might actually have some nice things to say about him and you would not think he was small minded or a one trick pony etc etc. Your hatred for anyone attacking Rabbi Riskin is the problem - not Rabbi Gordimer

  31. You really have a problem if you think I hate his guts. Projecting? Plus I criticized his stuff way before his article on RR came out, on this very Web site.

  32. They go with the flow. The flow was once less radical, but now it is more radical.

  33. No operation will turn them into rabbonim.

  34. They regard it as the most immediate threat.

  35. @Ben - you are truly creative. You are claiming that I might be projecting when I say your intemperate criticism is because he criticized Rabbi Riskin. Please explain how this is projection. Are you saying that because I hate Rabbi Gordimer -chas v'shalom - I have repeatedly selected his articles to post on my blog?!

  36. Driving to shul, keeping kosher. I'm talking 1940s here. But i wouldn't read into my comments too much. I'm only saying that OO doesn't even resemble OJ. It looks more like National Public Radio.

  37. you mean the context is in the case of someone working there, rather than the place as a whole? Good thing you asked for the clarification.
    My understanding is that Lieberman was still orthodox, and tried to keep the JTS as close to orthodoxy as possible, thus he forbade ordaining women rabbis. As soon as he was niftar, they started doing this. hence, as long as Lieberman was there, things were OK :)

  38. this is a very interesting article, which debates prf Shapiro, on whether Lieberman was "Orthodox" or Conservative.


    there is no clear answer.

  39. OK, time to breath. i have no idea what so ever why you're making these accusations. i'll start again:

    1) i think that RG is fixated on, even obssessed with, OO.

    2) at the same time i find it troubling that the cross current rabbanim have little or nothing to say about other extremely important issues.

    3) i criticized RG on these pages way before the RR issue ever came up.

    4) given the above, i admit a lack of respect towards RG.

    a) yes i lived in efrat and learned with RR. however i do not claim to be his BFF. he is not my rav. when i have a question, i don't ask RR.

    b) lack of respect does translate into "hating his guts".

    c) and yes i wrote my famous rant and loudly criticized RG, Rav Lau, and Rav Yosef and I stand by what i wrote. having said that, a person can criticize someone else without hating him.

    the world is 500 shades of gray and lots of other colors, it isn't black and white, love or hate. i have no idea why someone asked me if i won't eat OU products and i really have no idea why you translate lack of respect into "hatred".

  40. http://traditionarchive.org/news/article.cfm?id=101114

  41. http://traditionarchive.org/news/article.cfm?id=101114

  42. Sure. Show us how it's done. Tell us how much you respect the weekday activities of schoolteachers who only abuse students on weekends.

  43. Thanks for sharing. I would have preferred hearing what creative and
    positive suggestions from Rabbi Gordimer for orthodox communities that are
    sensitive to giving women more of a voice especially in a society where women run
    big businesses and be in charge and impact on the lives of thousands of people.
    Now some women have a lot of power and influence by virtue of being married to
    an influential Rov. It is often they who are running the Yeshivah or have a
    massive influence on their husbands. This is also true in the secular world.
    Everyone knows it is not Bibi who decides on what happens in Israel but
    Sara-le. But the question is can women have influence without a husband as an entry
    card. We know that Rabanit Yemima Mizrahi has more influence that most Rabbonim
    would dream of having and so did the Late Rabbanit Kamyeski . Rav Gordimer did explain the Devorah precedent
    so I would like to hear more from him. The new Chief Rabbi of the UK Rabbi
    Mirwis has moved in the direction – and
    at the same time established a fulltime Kollel, thereby addressing the concerns
    of all. Rabbi Gordimer - Being critical is easy , being creative not so

    Days before his selection as chief rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis
    appointed Britain’s first Orthodox female halachic adviser at Finchley
    Synagogue in London.

    Rebbetzin Lauren Levin will offer guidance to women on issues
    including religious rights in marriage and the laws of family purity. She will
    work as a yoetzet halachah (halachic adviser) and has been appointed community
    educator and head of the women’s division at the shul, widely known as Kinloss.

  44. They are not as well meaning as they seem unless you think Korach was also well meaning. Every breakaway from tradition lays claim to righteousness,

    As R Yaakov Weinberg said, feminism is the single greatest threat klal yisrael has ever faced.

  45. OO isn't just left of Orthodoxy or even conservative, it's in a different universe. The way religion works is that you conform to it. You don't make it conform to you, particularly when you are wacked out with contemporary twisting life habits.

  46. if there is a school teacher who abuses kids, that doesn't mean that the entire school needs to be closed.

    secondly, there is no comparison being having a position with which someone disagrees and being an abuser. you can disagree with someone and still agree that his work in kashrut is perfectly acceptable.

    so again, you're going to an all or nothing approaches, an approach i find mind boggling.

  47. No actual Torah source? Just for starters, see the commentaries on Hashem's directive to AA to heed everything Sarah Imenu says.
    Your logical mistake is in assuming that more spiritual people should necessarily lead frontally.

  48. if RYW lived in israel i would call that middle eastern hyperbole. since he lives in america, i'm not what to call except an historical exaggeration. i can think of a few worse threats (and i'm not talking about 1942 germany)

  49. go for it. i don't have any ponies in that particular race. i never criticized what RG wrote, in of itself, only in relation to other issues. it could be that i would agree with RG on say OO's approach to biblical criticism.

    in my area OO practically doesn't exist and in a lot of ways (not all) i associate with the mercaz harav school of thought (as well as others).

  50. that sounds like Conservative. it i hard to define exactly what space OO occupies. There is one guy there who denies Torah altogether, but I think majority of them accept it, including the women.

  51. I hope this is more clear:

    My goal is to eliminate Open Orthodoxy.

    The way to eliminate Open Orthodoxy is similar to the way to eliminate any danger or threat.

    The way to eliminate Open Orthodoxy is using every means possible, while staying within the Halacha.

    You, apparently, don't like this.

    I do like this.

    This blog is an important part of the battle against Open Orthodoxy.

    To the extent you impede the battle, you become one more impediment in the way.

    You remain my friend even though I challenge your statements. Even more, I appreciate your comments, because it popularizes this post by Rabbi Gordimer, and more people learn of the necessity to destroy OO before its adherents do any more damage.

  52. Modern Conservative is to Old Time Conservative, as Open Orthodox is to...?

  53. Joseph Orlow said: "My goal is to eliminate Open Orthodoxy."

    RaP: Are you an exterminator or terminator by any chance? Maybe then you will succeed, otherwise what are you smoking man?

    "The way to eliminate Open Orthodoxy is similar to the way to eliminate any danger or threat."

    RaP: Yeah? Like what hire hit men? Mass executions? You must be high on something?

    "The way to eliminate Open Orthodoxy is using every means possible, while staying within the Halacha."

    RaP: Which "Halacha" would that be? Get real man, in a democracy there is freedom of religion. From the point of view of Yiddishkeit there is only a formal or informal Cherem that can be used against them. So far no formal Baid Din or Posek has ruled or stated anything of any significance against the folks you don't like. People hate Modern Orthodoxy, Open Orthodoxy and the Conservadox, but they have the right to do as they wish. You have the choice to IGNORE them. If they are too much for you to handle MOVE AWAY from them and move to a community of Frum Jews you can and your family can be comfortable in. Don't waste your time and fight losing battles, because the folks you want to take on are richer, smarter and better connected to you. As that old saying goes "discretion is the better part of valor"!

    So for now the MOs and OOs and any other religious group, sect, cult or community can do as it wishes and as they say "may the best man win" because "time will tell".

    My own prediction is that the Charedim and Chasidim will win both in America and Israel for only one simple reason, they have growing numbers on their side. It is organic in that it is driven a rising tide of growing numbers that are empowered and energized for various reasons. What is known as "the revenge of the cradle" -- that's how you will defeat the MOs and OOs by getting married, having lots of children and raisning your family in a Torah-true environment with other like-minded Jews. You cannot play God and some things must be left for the Eibishter to sort out.

    So take a few steps back and cool it, and as long as the Charedi rabbonim do not make a formal move to put the MOs and OOs in Cherem by some sort of official decalration or ruling as they did against Rav Shlomo Goren when Rav Moshe Feinstein and the American Agudas Yisroel he headed took formal, official and public action against what Rabbi Goren was trying to do to allow Mamzerim into Klal Yisroel, even for the "best" and most "noble" of reasons, there is nothing you are I can do. The Gedolim will decide if and when to take formal action.

    Right now the best they have done is to allow attack articles in the American Yated and make the occasional declaration but it just comes across as "attack journalism" and accomplishes nothing because those who want to be MO and OO are, and those who want to be Charedi and Chasidish also are, so it's stale mate that has not been resolved. Let them have their female rabbis and Maharats and whatnot, you can't fight it, it only makes matters worse. Figure out a strategy how to Mekarev them and not attack them all the time...not easy huh? Much easier to rant and rave at them that only makes you look crazy, so please stop it!!

  54. you made yourself clear. i still don't understand why you would think that i should refrain from eating OU certified food.

    The way to eliminate Open Orthodoxy is similar to the way to eliminate any danger or threat.

    there are many ways to eliminate threats. sometimes an ax is needed, sometimes a tweezer, sometimes you walk away.

    You, apparently, don't like this. wrong, i'm parve on the issue.

  55. agree. IMO the dissonance between being Ok with a female dati judge in a secular system but opposing a female rabbi is where the conservative (small c) argument falls apart.

  56. Not Maharat. Just plain rat.

  57. To clarify: you don't seem to like Rabbi Gordimer's tactics. Or did I get that wrong, too?

    As for me, if I felt someone exhibited poor judgement in one area, I would lean towards not accepting their judgement in other areas. In particular, I would hesitate to trust them to prepare food for me.

    Waling away from a gaping pit in the highway virtually guarantees someone will fall into it and be injured. Picking up dirt with tweezers to fill the hole isn't going to do it. An ax is getting there, could use it to cut down trees to bridge the gap. OO is the pits, and to fight it we need super advanced technology, so to speak. An unrelenting drumbeat of opposition to arouse opposition to any encroachment of OO into our communities.

    You deride this approach as obssession. I praise it as determined.

  58. I'm not sure what to respond, except to say, perhaps, that I appreciate your attempt to undermine my work. You question my sanity -- something I do myself -- but you simultaneously affirm my rationality and give me strength to carry on. That is because I don't think you would write such a thorough comment unless you thought I just might take it to heart and abandon my mission. You give me hope that I have some shred of sense and coherence.

  59. Ben P,
    You may be completely right, but let's get the whole picture. The Open Orthodox have great monetary power, and they are consuming here and there shulls and Yeshivas with that money. Nobody is fighting them in the street, and they keep advancing. It is clear to Yeshiva University and the OU that the are too weak to declare the Open Orthodox to be non-Orthodox. I head that Avi Weiss's shull is officially accepted as a member in the Orthodox Union. We are talking about a growing threat, with no proper response, that will destroy YU and the OU. One rabbi complaining about this is not going to do the job. But I don't know if even this great and brave person can do more than he is at the present, without getting fire. That is a major problem.

    I spoke recently to a major Posek and he congratulated me about fighting a certain wicked rabbi. I told him, that I am the only one in America doing this. And I said the reason is that I am the only one who has no job, and has no fear somebody will take it away from me. Yes, there are choshuveh people in the Modern Orthodox world, but now everyone is terrified. If I had a job I would also be terrified.

    Yes, the time is short The Open people are gaining and gaining, and nobody is pushing back. So what will happen to the OU? Will somebody eventually be accepted in the Kashrush of the OU from Open O? What will people eat then? Where will modern Orthodox go to Yeshiva if YU accepts and Open O as a teacher or rebbe?

    That is the issue.

    I don't think there is a solution at hand, but I raised my children to accept that if you want a really straight life you have to go your own way, and it may be very lonely. And I trained them to smile and laugh while they did that. But not everybody has such a training.

  60. Avi Weiss is a full fledged rabbinic member of the RCA.

  61. Rabbi - I completely agree with you and that is exactly my point. Rabbi Gordimer has written this article in various forms half a dozen times (if not more) over the last several years. His articles go into great detail about the dangers of OO. But at the end of the day, his articles are just that articles, not action. Action needs to be taken at the highest levels of Modern Orthodoxy. The only way to stop the spread of this cancer is to eradicate it, not complain about it. The RCA/OU/YU absolutely need to do this at the highest level, and do it soon. Yet they continue to include in their midst members of OO. I am forced to believe that RCA/OU/YU are either not strong enough to stand up for legitimate orthodox Judaism or they disagree with Rabbi Gordimer and really only have limited issues with certain positions of OO.
    I am only pointing out that Rabbi Gordimer, keeps writing and writing about this, but takes no action and he is an executive member of one the main institution's that can actually accomplish stopping OO. Yet that institution does nothing constructive to actually accomplish that goal. So stop just writing and get your organization to do something constructive.

  62. My work is simple and effective. In abbreviated fashion, it is like this: I engage a learned person in a conversation. I teach them the Halacha of Gittin as taught to me by Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn. One of two things tend to happen: they become a follower of Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn. Or they become upset. Upset because there is no way that someone can disagree with Rabbi Eidensohn's teachings on Gittin and still lay any claim to following the Mesora.

    In summary, I work with one person at a time. I am also encouraged to continue because of the many Rabbonim I've spoken to who tell me what I'm doing is good. Also, I'm encouraged by the Haskamos at the beginning of the Sefer Mishpatei Yisrael.

    Let me spell it out. OO carries the banner of Get on Demand. I show people that Get on Demand is inconsistent with the Mesora. I force people to choose between the Mesora and OO. No one I've spoken with so far and had a chance to make a thorough presentation to about the Halachos of Gittin has chosen to defend the position of OO. Or if they have, they are possibly too embarrassed to say so in front of me.

    In a war, the goal is to conquer. Armed with the Halacha and the backing of Rabbonim, I'm conquering.

  63. They have their foot in the door even by you. I take your saying they "practically don't exist" to mean there is some sympathy for them. Stay strong. As long as people like you and I can have a discussion, OO will be challenged to make inroads. OO likes to rule by fiat. I learned that when the most prominent OO Rabbi in the Washington DC area shouted me down when I attended a preesentation at his Shul and made an attempt to speak up.

    Investigation, exploration of issues, to them, is like Kryptonite to Superman.

  64. regarding the OO stuff: go for it. i'm a spectator.
    regarding the kashrut: two points:
    1) like i said, the OU isn't one person and the quality of their work isn't dependent on RG.
    2) like i said, i reject black and white, all or nothing thinking. just because i disagree with RG on one issue (or a certain aspect of that issue) doesn't mean that i shouldn't trust his judgement in other areas. unless i were to conclude that someone's mental abilities and moral makeup are compromised, there is no reason to think him incapable of doing his job.

    having a hangup about OO doesn't come close to compromising one's moral makeup.

  65. What is your point? So women have binah. That's wonderful. Binah is not the only form of intelligence or spirituality. The Maharal says men have chochman yesayrah. He also says men are more spiritual in general (Tiferes Israel 4 and 28).

  66. These people waste their lives battling the Torah, trying to twist it into the post-modern liberal National Public Radio school of holistic hysteria. Just look for the words inform, construct, narrative and progressive - signs of this disease.

  67. Joe, I thin RaP is not in agreement with OO, but is just being pragmatic about what can be done today.
    The problem with Reb Dovid's posts is that here and there he lets slip that he thinks Rav Moshe was mistaken, and implies (without saying explicitly), that RMF was chas v'shalom responsible for a mamzer factory with his lenient psak. He also claims to be a talmid of RMF. It is true that Rav Henkin quietly opposed RMF on these issues, but that doesnt make RMF wrong, or R' Tzvi Pesach Frank for that matter.

  68. The OU has its own hypocrisy and that is part of what holds them back. They also practice feminist radicalism. So how outraged do you expect them to be when they run around promoting prenups?

  69. You are mixing a 100 issues together here and sound a little hysterical. What has any of this to do with changing halacha? We do not have to spend our days reshaping the Torah so that the liberals don't call us names.They'll call us names until we look exactly like them.

    And why do you keep talking about the kitchen? And what's wrong with the kitchen, it's a place of chesed. And the home is a school and the mother a teacher.

  70. Does the average man have a voice? The average man is lucky to get an aliyah once very 6 months. There's this myth that every man is a power broker.

  71. Just for starters? That's a feeble attempt at a proof. In this matter, he had to listen to her. In general Abraham was in charge. That's why a special instruction was needed. See Rav Hirsch there. Rabbi Soloveitchik says "In some matters of a personal and family nature, Sarah's spiritual discernment is praised as being superior to Abraham's." (Man of Faith in the Modern World, p. 84). Note the word "some."

    I imagine that you have been fed all the myths about women being generally more spiritual, but they are baseless.

    Other authorities that either explicitly or implicitly contradict the notion of generally higher spirituality in the female include Rambam, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Tur, Orach Chaim 46; Akeidas Yitzchak, Bereishis 6; Bartenura, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Taz, Orach Chaim 46; Zies Ra'anan (Magen Avraham), Yalkut Shemoni, Shmuel 1:1; Vilna Gaon, Even Shelaima 1:8; Baal Shevet Musar, Midrash Talpiyos, Ohs Aleph, Anaf Isha; Rav Tzadock Rabinowitz, Dover Tzedeck, p. 119; R' Avraham Yitzchak Kook, Olas Re'iah, Birchos ha-shachar; R' Moshe Feinstein, Iggeros Moshe, Orach ChaimIV, 49; R' Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Man of Faith in the Modern World, (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1989), p. 84; Lubavitcher Rebbe, Sichos in English, Iyar-Tammuz 5744, Vol. 21, pp. 69-72; R' Avigdor Miller, Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, (Brooklyn, NY: Mesorah), pp. 245-246 .

    See http://belovedcompanions.blogspot.com/

  72. Modern conservative is reform.
    OO is the Wellesely College Women's Studies dept.

  73. :). conversely when someone uses the words subordinate, objectively true, authentic, and my favorite "eternal, unchanging", i know that someone is writing a polemic.

  74. @Eddie - what is your problem? Why do your insist on imagining something negative which you then feel a need to share. No he doesn't think Rav Moshe is responsible for a mamzer factory

    With a little bit of effort you could put the same pieces together in a way that not only makes sense but is also true

  75. Most of this is addressed in the Shiurim Rabbi Eidensohn gave, and in great detail. I will only spoil it to summarize it here. Perhaps I'll go back to review the recordings and my notes and present the answer here. The preface to the answer is that a great Rav can make a Psak that contradicts the rulings of Rabbonim from previous generations. This Psak does not become binding on his students. Furthermore, the Rav himself may not even hold by his own Psak in the future, since he may have been lenient or strict in a case because of circumstances that are peripheral to the actual case. All this is taught in great detail with sources and examples in the Shiurim.

    As RaP noted, he and I are both fighting Batei Din that are no Batei Din. How to determine what is a legitimate Bais Din is also taught in Rabbi Eidensohn's teleconference Shiurim.

  76. An interesting statement, but try answering my riddle!

  77. The point I am making is that Rav Moshe was the Gadol Hador, and so his views, even when lenient , have to be taken seriously ,and presumed to be valid. It is fine to disagree, but they are still valid.

  78. Sea Slipper,
    If you go to my blog torahhalacha.blogspot.com I have a post about this regarding the battle between G-d and the Moon at Creation, perhaps the strangest teaching in the Talmud.

  79. but he has someone who speaks for him

  80. @Eddie - the point is your creative allegations and slander have nothing to do with what you just wrote .

  81. Ch@aim, you are suggesting that OO is to Mo as Conservative is to old time conservative. Then we need to know what old time conservative was.. Actually, JTS used to be MO, until it became Conservative.
    There is a gap, big or not, between conservative/left OO and MO.
    Those who deny Torah min Hashamayim can call themselves what they want, but they become apikorsim according to the Rambam and most or all Rishonim.
    A couple of generations back, in England, there was a big lamdan called Louis Jacobs. he was a Talmid of Gateshead and Manchester yeshivas. He was tipped to become the next Chief rabbi of Britain. He gave a shiur in Golders green Beth Hamedrash, which was hareidi.
    But, he started writing apikorsus, and bringing in documentary Hypokorsus into what he called "orthodoxy". At the time, it was the MO , mainly Chief Rabbi Brodie ztl who battled with him. The Hareidi Dayanim in the London Bet Din did not get involved, as they were not so much into theology those days.
    The joke is he started a new movement called Masorti (conservative), and claimed he still accepted Torah min haShamayim, even though he denied it. I don't know if he was a rasha, or just nuts, but he was both loved and hated by different sectors of Anglo Jewry.

  82. i have never been crazy about the term "one iota" as in not changing one iota.

  83. really? who speaks for the average man any more than the average woman? in the modern orthodox world certainly there's nobody who cares about him

  84. i tried, couldn't do it because OO is a new strain of bacteria. Old conservative was highly diluted Orthoxy and reform is more diluted still. OO is a pig with a yarmulka.

  85. I listened to it. Very interesting. Doesn't really talk about men vs women explicitly but I think i get your point.

  86. Eddie - you get the prize. I was comparing MO to OTC - are you saying they are one and the same? Even I'm not saying that. All of OTC became C, but I don't think there is any danger of חס ושלום all or even most of MO becoming OO. Why do you think this is? Or am I wrong - are there some OTCs still out there? Is the concept of OTC a figment of SS's imagination?

  87. Who am I allegedly slandering? There are certain piskei halacha that Reb Dovid challenges, on Gittin, made by Rav Moshe, and also by Rav Frank. He is arguing that anyone who relies on this halachot today would be creating potential mamzerim. Is this the above statement accurate, and is it slanderous?

  88. What is good about OO is that it is good for MO. You may think i am crazy for saying this, but look at this article:
    Rav Perlow calls OO apikorsus, and asks MO to condemn them. In other words, he says MO is Kosher, and asks them to join him in condemning OO. And people in MO are critical of OO, the yeshiva strand of MO are not impressed by OO,
    So there is a ig difference , and it shows the strength of MO, based on the teachings of gedolim such as Rav Kook and Rav Soloveitchik.

  89. Are you referring to this P'sak?

    A woman discovers a blemish in her husband, and immediately and permanently leaves her husband. No Get is required.

    From the recent Shiurim of Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn, according to my understanding, and slightly embellished:

    These conditions have to be met for the P'sak to apply:

    (1) The woman was unaware of the blemish before the discovery.

    (2) The woman must leave instantly. For example, she doesn't think about leaving for a an hour and then walk out of the home. She doesn't talk over with the husband or anyone else other options, such as counseling etc. But she gers up and leaves. Boom. Marriage finished.

    (3) The blemish is of certain types.

    Rabbi Eidensohn demonstrated at great length that the Halacha, as received from previous generations, is not like Reb Moshe. Rabbi Eidensohn explained, with sources and in great detail, that a Rav such as Reb Moshe, can challenge the rulings of previous generations in some circumstances. However, his students are not required to followed his P'sak under these circumstances.

    Furthermore, even if someone decides to rule like this P'sak, they have several challenges, such as:

    (1) How do they determine the blemish in the husband exists?
    (2) How do they determine the wife left immediately? Are witnesses required to testify she left immeiately?

    So, I think your statement is not accurate. Someone ruling like Reb Moshe doesn't create potential Mamzerim. If the Bais Din is aware of the teachings of previous generations, and aware of Reb Moshe's P'sak which is different than what was received from previous generaions, decides to rule like Reb Moshe, and determines the blemish was real and of a qualified type, and determines that the woman learned of the blemish and at that moment made her exit, than her future progeny will have a cloud hanging over them, but they are not potential Mamzerim.

  90. Rabbi Gordimer is valiantly trying to preserve what little remains of halachic Modern Orthodoxy, before MO suffers a "hostile takeover" and is swallowed whole by the leftist Reformadox Open Orthodox movement.

    Rabbi Gordimer may also be painfully aware that any aggressive attack on OO feminism by the RCA/OU may cause massive dissent and schisms within the mainstream MO movement which is already heavily feminized.

    Its important to realize that the development of women rabbis only represents the tip of OO's leftist iceberg. Not too far down the OO road even worse disasters await, such as full support of the "gay" rights agenda, ordination of "gay" rabbis, militant anti-male feminism, alliances with the anti-semitic Left, denigration of Biblical principles, demonization of Israel, support of Palestinian "rights" to Eretz Yisrael, etc.

    Mr. RaP is naive if he believes that the Chareidi world can easily co-opt the well financed and well organized OO movement. One only has to see the inroads the ORA feminist movement and its brazen halachic violations have made into a number of allegedly Chareidi communities, especially in high profile divorce cases. The pandering to NYC "gay" politicians by the Chareidi community is another example of Chareidi defeat.

    The Chareidi world will not easily co-opt these leftist movements especially when one considers the dependence of the Chareidi communities on various government programs promoted by leftist Democrat politicians.

  91. It's not a "competition"! Many have noted that it is bedavka in our modern times, also know as the "Information Age" when brains count more than muscles, that the scales have tipped, or at least equalized, leveling the playing field between men and women in the world. In ancient times and until not so long literal "man-power" was needed to to do almost anything in this world. Today machines and computers do all the work for us at the push of a button. In the fields of KNOWLEDGE this has resulted in equal opportunities for men and women in the secular and professional world and it has effected the Jewish world. Women are now freed from household manual labor since machines (washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, all sorts of electronic gadgets etc) do it for them.

    So it is no wonder that in the last century women have been receiving and education and a Torah Chinuch that is closer to the traditional male curriculum, up to and including, for very smart and brilliant women, the chance to accomplish in the realms of the intellect and intelligence, knowledge and information that is on a par with and sometimes even superior to men if they are truly gifted women.

    Add the woman's improved status and opportunities in modern times to a qaulity where according to a majority opinion among Chazal and Jdaism she exceeds man, in her Bina Yeseira, that places her in an even stronger position to be powerful, and helpful, in the world. It is not a "threat" or a "competition" although at time it does devolve to that, but it is the actualization and realization and formalization of a long-recessed capacity and and ability that now has women coming to the forefront. And we can stomp and shout and say what we want, but there is no stopping this trend.

    The most Charedi of women today receive top Chinuch and education. Everyone knows of some women who are not just righteous but are true "Talmidei Chachomim" in their own right. Some even have high university degrees and are top in their professional fields in addition to being learned in torah and much more. So why is it a shock to learn that among the left-wing spectrum of this rising female cohort is a group that wished to become full fledged "rabbis"? It does not surprise me in the least.

    Personally I am not looking for a female rabbi, I am surrounded by many smart, intelligent and very capable frum female family and friends none of of whom wants to be a "rabbi" but if among the left-wing MOs and OOs some of them do, then there is nothing to stop them really. We do not have to like it and we are free to boycott their shulls and schools and go to rabbis and places that we are free to choose for ourselves in a democratic country. But by the same token they are allowed to carry on with their own agenda as well, it's all part of huge trend that is a positive sign that they even want to aspire to such things. These are not just old-time "Reform" or "Conservative" Shtick, you have to see that this is a far more serious and deeper trend and manifestaion of something much deeper in our times.

  92. Umm, See Slipper, if you haven't noticed we are dealing with liberals here, almost all modern American Jews are liberals. Duh! Why does that fact and reality escape you? If you want to sound like George Wallace go ahead denouncing the liberals feel free it is your democratic right to do so, but in this post and discussion we are dealing with liberal Modern Orthodox Jews who have different take on the world. They are not like you.

    By the way, have you ever done Kiruv in America? You are dealing with liberal kids and people all the time and you had better understand them and know what to do with them to Mekarev them successfully, and screaming and shouting like you are doing now about "Halacha" is not the way to go about it my friend. Take it easy, and take a deep breath and try to see how to deal with the complexities and not to be simplistic or fundamentalistic.

    You do not seem to be familiar with their world. You are just shouting at them like a maniac, and then you accuse me of being "hysterical" when you are the hysterical one name-calling fellow Yidden "liberals" and accusing them of all sorts of "crimes" that are things you do not like nor do you understand them. How will you ever influence them? Or do you believe in executing all enemies like ISIS does?

    You are too literal for this discussion if you cannot grasp my points and you seem to think I am talking about a real "kitchen"! Go home to Mummy, order her to serve you some cookies she baked just for you, and stay away from discussions about people and mentalities you obviously know nothing about.

  93. Joseph Orlow I do not have time to study obscure Seforim at this time. No one needs any Sefer to know that even if a Jew breaks all the Mitzvos, even if he is an atheist, Kofer and Machalel everything, that Jew is still a Jew. According to the Chazon Ish, all Jews today are Tinokos SheNishbu! Even every Frum person today is a Tinok SheNishba.

    There are all sorts of groups in thsi woprld. There are MOs and OOS who want to have female rabbis, there are Charedim that are against all secular studies, they think goiiing to college is Treif. There are people who swear that every male Jew MUSt have a berad. There are groups that hold that every Jew must live in Israel and make Aliya, etc etc. If people want to fight fake Gittin, Kol HaKavod, but we have BIGGER problems than that. We have bigger problems than fighting the OOs.

    The main problem of our time is a rock bottom problem, assimilation, intermarriage and then apostasy and it needs to be fought at all stages. But at this time fighting female Orthodox rabbis among MOs and OOs is low priority, so is fighting fake Gittin, the main problem is more basic, NOT to allow Goyim Gemurim to enter into Klal Yisroel thereby killing it off. Then move in and fight it in every place it rears its ugly head.

  94. Joseph Orlow said "As RaP noted, he and I are both fighting Batei Din that are no Batei Din."

    Amen! Agreed 100% but with the proviso that not all Batei Din are Posul, my opinion is that ALL Orthodox Batei Din are Kosher until proven "guilty" by a consensus of enough competent Rabbanim something that is not so easy to do!

  95. @RaP - this essay is nonsense. It contains perhaps the most dangerous doctrine of the current feminist movement - that the wife's job is to supervise the husband i.e. she is his mashgiach. That is if her deep knowledge about everything is followed - the husband will be success.

    As Rav Sternbuch has said - "A man does not want to marry a mashgiach"

  96. @RaP the issue of superiority in "spirituality" is not a red herring but in fact seems to be widespread amongst women of this generation.

    Bina yeseira - doesn't get you much leverage - it is simply a different way of processing information but it doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion reached will be superior to conclusions reached in other ways.

  97. @RaP - your citation of the Chazon Ish is not relevant to a case of willful distortion of halacha. He was talking about a limited situation - not a blanket pass

    Chazon Ish (Hilchos Shechita 2:16): I believe that the legal permission to kill heretics only existed in a period of time when G d’s Providence was revealed to everyone. In other words, only in such a time when miracles were common and they all heard the Bas Kol (Heavenly Voice) and they saw and acknowledged the unique Providence for the righteous of the generation. The heretics in those eras - despite the great manifestation of spirituality - had an especially powerful lust for pleasure and rejecting all religious obligations. In such circumstances, the destruction of the wicked served the clear purpose of improving the world. Everyone at those times knew that corrupt morals and violating religious commandments brought about suffering in the world such as plague, war and famine. However at a time when there is the absence of such clear awareness of the importance of spirituality, then killing heretics does not bring about improvement but rather makes things worse. That is because in such a non spiritual world, the punishment of heretics is viewed as destructive and as religious coercion. Therefore, since the whole reason for punishing heretics is to improve society, it cannot apply to an era when it is not generally perceived as an improvement. Thus in our current situation, we are obligated to bring the non observant back to the light of religion - with acts of love and affection to the best of our ability.

    So he simple says we don't kill heretics today but he agrees there are heretics

    Chazon Ish (Y.D. 62:21): …The Rambam(Tshuva 3:7) says that one who claims that G d has a physical image is a min (heretic) but not an idolater. And even according to the Raavad who says that such a person is not a heretic – apparently that is only if he does not investigate the matter or he isn’t intelligent enough to understand the matter properly. However the Raavad would agree that someone who is capable of understanding that this is not possible from what our Tradition teaches and yet still claims that G d has a body - is a heretic. It is also possible that the Rambam himself would agree that a person who has not investigated the matter and he is committed to our Traditions concerning G d (e.g., He precedes creation, He created everything and there is no other deity) and nevertheless he thinks G d has a physical image – that he is still a valid and good Jew – but he is simply mistaken as the Raavad himself concludes. And this that the Raavad says regarding those who believe such a mistaken view, “There are many great and better than him” – actually the term “mimenu” doesn’t mean “than him (Rambam)" but “from the Jewish people” and thus he is saying that there are many great and good Jews who mistakenly believe this.

  98. "women will be dominant" - If you want to eagerly drink up Chabad's non-Torah ideologies that radically conflict with our Torah mesora, that is your choice. I have never seen any Torah sources anywhere that state that the future Melech HaMashiach will be a woman, or that the Sanhedrin will be comprised of women.

    The Chabad article you posted does not quote any non-Chabad sources for the dominance of women. Its simply a pathetic attempt to justify injecting a non-Jewish ideology (feminism) into Torah Judaism by abusing Kabbalistic terminologies.

    On the contrary, as Sea Slipper has correctly noted, traditional non-Chabad Torah sources teach that the man is spiritually dominant over the woman:

    “This will-subordination of the wife to the husband is a necessary condition of the unity which man and wife should form together. The subordination cannot be the other way about, since the man as zachar has to carry forward the divine and human messages which through every marriage are to be a living force in the household, and to which the husband and wife are in union to devote their forces. Just as the first command of God though addressed to the man was given through him for the woman as well, just as in consequence Adam should not have thrown over the command of God for the sake of Eve but Eve ought to have subjected her desire to the will of God as expressed to her though Adam, so thenceforward the husband was to be responsible for the task imposed upon man by God and to carry it out in his marriage and household.” R' Hirsch, Judaism Eternal, vol. II, p 58.

    "As for my people, their rulers are mockers, and women govern them..." (Isaiah 3:12)

  99. @Eddie - please provide the citation where my brother sates what you are claiming.

    In fact he did not say such a thing but you have simply assumed that is his view.

    A more appropriate approach - especially where the conclusion is so outrageous - is simply to ask whether this is his view. He is readily available so there is no need to speak for him or interpret his words in the most negative manner.

  100. Rav Shternbuch is a wise Posek, but he is not in touch with the world of MOs and OOs they do not even know he exists and even if they met him, they would yawn and ignore him. Now what? How do suggest you get your point of view across to them. The essay I posted is not mine, it as an example of trying to create common ground with a secularish audience and then from there try to present an outlook and solution. Rabbi Miller is an outreach rabbi working with out of town people, the type of people who subscribe to the MO and OO philosophies of life that he is trying to win over and persuade. If he reads them the riot act like some posters on this blog think can be done, then no one will listen you will be speaking to yourself.

    As for what women want or do want, I think Freud was on the money when he famously said that "After a lifetime of trying to understand women, I don't understand them" so there are all sorts. Most women do take care of not just their husbands but also of their children, home, families, many times they take of a lot more, and many modern women in the Charedi and Frum world also have serious jobs and responsibilities and they are the "mashgichim" of all that.

    In short, we are more under the rule of our QUEEN ESTHERS than we like to admit or realize!

  101. @RAP, I'm not sure why you are bringing this up. Even if I weed out all the unnecessary hostility in your posts, I'm still not sure what you are trying to do. Of course, good Jewish women are important and capable. My only point is that 50 years of portraying them as superior in order to apologize for our religion to the goyim has lead to the women rabbis, women wearing tefilling problem. What we should have been doing all these years is portraying them as being equal to men in spiritual capability - with different natures and roles.

    I don't blame the women for this. Superiority is a male concern. Women don't want to see themselves as superior. They just want respect.

    The woman as superior thing is a male invention designed to flatter the female in a way she never sought.

  102. Okay, but i was not talking about "spirituality"! That is not my subject here. How would you define "feminine instincts" or "female intuition" or "sh'ma bekola" (God instructs Avraham to obey his wife)?

    Come on in any case, women do have that extra something. The discussion here is about Orthodox female rabbis and how and why this is happening and among whome. The fault is NOT all of the MOs and OOs as I have repeatedly said, the MOs are only crossing the bridge that the Charedim built. It is the Charedim that started the Basi Yaakov movement giving girls a formal Chinuch which was a break with the Mesora of home education, as it was for boys when Yehoshua Ben Gamla introduced formal schooling for boys 2,000 years earlier. So that it took 2,000 years but then finally in the last century Sara Schenirer, actually it was the Yekkisha Orthodox German army Her Doktor Rabbiners who organized the Yavneh schools in Lithuania under German occupation in World War One that then Sara Schenirer carried far and wide in Poland to educate Frum girls formally. In our times we have seen this move on to high school education and seminary education to the point that girls are also mekayem "haveh goleh es atzmecha lemakom Torah" getting the same consideration from their parents and frum society to learn in Israel just like boys go to learn for a year in yeshiva. If you are going to shout "feminism" then please do so now, because that is what it is according to the line of reasoning that opposes the fact that MOs and OOs don't want to stop there, they want their girls to learn as equals to boys with Gemora and Meforshim and then, no surprise they say it is not enough that we have Toanot and Maharats they also want "rabbis" now , nu-nu, they are being silly, what are we afraid of that all the BJJ girls will want Semicha and become Roshei Yeshiva next instead of their dull hubbies who just want cars and ten year support plans to sit in Kollel and do what?

    The world is changing in front of our eyes, sit back and enjoy the show!

  103. @RaP - the issue is not simply to influence MO and OO. It also is important that we ourselves know why we do things and what our values are.

    Quoting Freud doesn't get much mileage around here. He produced a interesting system which bears little relationship with the real world. Nor was he a successful therapist

    There is a significant difference between being a caregiver and support system to being the boss and leader.

    Please explain the comment about Queen Esther - do you think she is the epitome and role model of wife, mother and women in general?!

  104. Okay, so what's the plan now, to kill all the heretic MOs and OOs because they want to have female rabbis?

    Death to the infidels sounds a lot like the Taliban and ISIS.

    How does that solve anything?

  105. RAP, if you could speak with a little less condescension and hostility, we'd be better able to hear you.

    You seem to be operating from the perspective that women have had it bad all these years and men have had it great. Thus, we need to make women's lives more like that of men.

    I have found it nearly impossible to discuss these topics with anybody from that school of thought, in part because it is rarely based on fact, just rhetoric. It's an ideological position and as R' Beryl Wein says, you can't argue with an ideologue. They are always right.

    When you talk of women being "freed" from the kitchen, might you mention also men being "freed" from the coal mine or the factory floor? Of course, we all wound up on office cubicles which arguably are no improvement at all.

  106. kosher like chalav stom maybe

  107. I think you are overrating education, which is a very American thing to do. School is the religion here.

    What does this say about thousands of years prior to the Bais Yaakov movement? Were women deprived?

  108. @RaP - the feminist movement is not the result of the Beis Yaakov movement nor is the result of girls learning Gemora.

    It is simply because that is what is happening in the non-Jewish world. There is no way that there would be women rabbis if there were no women priests, CEO, Presidents etc etc.

    Rav Soloveitchik started teaching gemora to women - because he said that their Yiddishkeit should be as intellectually challenging as their secular education. He didn't say that since they went to Beis Yaakov we can't say no to anything they want.

    MO and OO are primarily oriented to the values of the secular society. The Chareidi world is catching up.

    The critical issue is what is driving this process - it is not primiarly connected with the nature of women and their intellect or spirituality - it has to do what with what is happening in the general society.

  109. Renaissance? The contemporary woman is a train wreck. She has lost her binah and her modesty and her warmth and everything that is so special about women. Your approach is completely that of contemporary feminism - turn women in men. You are taking your queues from the goyim, a classic mistake.

  110. @Rap - please keep your eye on the ball. Nobody is suggesting killing anybody - not even as a joke!

    I simply pointed out that you were misquoting the Chazon Ish and clearly misrepresenting the concept of Tinok shenishba.

    Or to put it in your terms - presenting gross distortions of the issues doesn't help communications and discussions

  111. You don't need Freud. The Talmud says that women are a nation unto themselves.

    But you see in RAPs quoting Freud, where he looks for intellectual material and how influenced his perspective is by the contemporary trends.

    He is, in short, a feminist. And like most Shomer Shabbos feminists, he tries desperately, and ferociously to fit Judaism into the constructs and values of this toxic ideology, one that basically ruined the world.

  112. not all of chabad, i know plenty of people there who don't talk this way

    it's some of chabad

  113. Rap said: "MOs and OOs have gone the whole way and are treating girls as equals to boys" - Do you mean the ORA/JOFA/BDA type of MO "equality" where Jewish men are used as sperm donors and then tossed out like garbage by their wives on any whim using grossly misandrist prenup agreements?

    Your argument for "equality" blatantly contradicts your earlier statements where you quoted the Kabbalistically challenged Chabad ideologue who "claimed women will be dominant". That Chabadnik, although he cannot quote valid Torah sources to justify feminist domination of men, is much more intellectually honest than you.

    The anti-Torah and non-Jewish feminist ideologies (within the Jewish communities) that you so enthusiastically embrace are clearly seeking feminist domination and control of men, not simply equality with men. That type of feminist domination will completely sever any connection of "feminist Orthodoxy" with authentic Judaism.

    "Rav said: All who follow their wives advice will fall into Gehinom" (Baba Metzia 59a).

  114. There is a difference between saying women are different than men and saying they are not comprehensible.

    GEMARA. ‘Ulla said: And it is the reverse in the case of a man.9 Thus we see that ‘Ulla holds that whatever is fit for a man is not fit for a woman, and whatever is fit for a woman is not fit for a man.10 R. Joseph objected: Shepherds may go out [on the Sabbath] with sackcloths;11 and not only of shepherds did they [the Sages] say [thus], but of all men, but that it is the practice of shepherds to go out with sacks.12 Rather said R. Joseph. ‘Ulla holds that women are a separate [independent] people.

    Shabbos (62a): Abaye put an objection to him: If one finds tefillin,13 he must bring them in14 pair by pair;15 [this applies to] both a man and a woman. Now if you say that women are a separate people, surely it is16 a positive command limited in time, and from all such women are exempt?17 — There R. Meir holds that night is a time for tefillin, and the Sabbath [too] is a time for tefillin: thus it is a positive precept not limited by time, and all such are incumbent upon women. But it is carrying out in a ‘backhanded’ manner?18 — Said R. Jeremiah: The reference is to a woman who is a charity overseer.19 Raba said [to him]: You have answered the case of a woman; but what can be said of a man?20 Said Raba, [This is the answer:] Sometimes a man gives a signet-ring to his wife to take it to a chest, and she places it on her hand21 until she comes to the chest. And sometimes a woman gives a non-signet ring to her husband to take it to an artisan to be repaired, and he places it on his hand until he comes to the artisan.22

    (13) תלמוד בבלי מסכת שבת דף סב/א
    גמרא אמר עולא וחילופיהן באיש אלמא קסבר עולא כל מידי דחזי לאיש לא חזי לאשה ומידי דחזי לאשה לא חזי לאיש מתיב רב יוסף הרועים יוצאין בשקין ולא הרועים בלבד אמרו אלא כל אדם אלא שדרכן של הרועים לצאת בשקין [אלא] אמר רב יוסף קסבר עולא נשים עם בפני עצמן הן איתיביה אביי המוצא תפילין מכניסן זוג זוג אחד האיש ואחד האשה ואי אמרת נשים עם בפני עצמן הן והא מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא הוא וכל מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא נשים פטורות התם קסבר רבי מאיר לילה זמן תפילין הוא ושבת זמן תפילין הוא הוה ליה מצות עשה שלא הזמן גרמא וכל מצות עשה שלא הזמן גרמא נשים חייבות והא הוצאה כלאחר יד היא אמר רבי ירמיה באשה גזברית עסקינן אמר רבה (בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן) תרצת אשה איש מאי איכא למימר אלא אמר רבא פעמים שאדם נותן לאשתו טבעת שיש עליה חותם להוליכה לקופסא ומניחתה בידה עד שמגעת לקופסא ופעמים שהאשה נותנת לבעלה טבעת שאין עליה חותם להוליכה אצל אומן לתקן ומניחה בידו עד שמגיע אצל אומן:

  115. Driving it in part is the devaluation of spirituality - and women! The world today, lead by America, values money and career success-male domains historically. It does not value family, love, community - all the stuff women are good at. It glamorizes career, when most people hate their jobs. The college professors have interesting and easy jobs and they brainwash the youth about the glory of career. So then of course women will want to have one. Talk to the women of my generation, how career turned out to be a bust. I know many that gave up child bearing years for career and they hate their careers and wish they had more kids.

  116. "it's some of chabad" - Agreed. I didn't mean to impute feminist opinions to all Chabadniks.

  117. truly equal would mean that women are obligated to support their families - i never hear that proposed.

  118. Shouting at them? I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to you, or trying to.

    Yes, I have done lots of kiruv. The rule is, you don't need to warp Torah to attract people. And you are not allowed to.

    I would address the complexity in your thought if I saw some. I see rather much pseudo-intellectualism that is emotionally driven for the most part.

  119. None of RaP's emotional, long winded comments and diversions onto extraneous subjects (such as binah) addressed (to my knowledge) in any way one a fundamental, critical point in Rabbi Gordimer's article - that women are prohibited from holding rabbinic or halachic authority positions in Judaism.

    "women cannot serve as rabbinic judges (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 7:4, ... the rabbinical ordination of women is not valid and is distortive of the very essence of semicha."

  120. Frankly, the MO (yes, MO in its entirety and not just their OO component) are increasingly becoming irrelevant in the grand scheme of greater Orthodoxy. According to the Pew Research study of American Jewry conducted less than two years ago, the "Ultra-Orthodox" (Pew's term for Traditional Orthodoxy and what some others refer to as Chareidim) constitute a full 71% of American Orthodoxy. And what is even moreso is that the Pew study determined that American Orthodox Jews aged 30 years of age and younger are a full 81% Ultra-Orthodox.

    So not only are Chareidim already three quarters of the Orthodox population, they are increasingly -- and quickly -- becoming the overwhelming dominating demographic factor.

  121. How much is one iota?

  122. Labels are essentially meaningless and useless as far as extrapolating behavior.

    I wouldn't assign too much weight to how someone identifies when it comes to terms like Hareidi, Modern Orthodox, Open Orthodox, Conservative, etc etc. On an online matchmaking site someone identified as Orthodox, yet added they turn on lights on Shabbos because they are not "extreme". On another website, a woman identifying as Frum has this to say about her particular community:

    "Our community has come up with this very bizarre rule that it is sometimes okay to eat vegetarian food at non-kosher restaurants. We all know this rule is totally goofy, because they probably cooked a BLT on that grill right before they cooked your tuna melt."

    From this blog, we are aware of leading Rabbis who banded together and whose efforts contributed to Talmidei Chachamim losing their jobs for the crime of being related to someone whose wife demanded a Get.

    The Av Bais Din of amajor Orthodox Bais Din apparently doen't think much of the Halachos of Gittin.

  123. "Increasing shrinkage into irrelevancy" - Moe, are you aware of the serious effects the MO-feminist groups (Jewish, non-Jewish, and government groups) are having in the Chareidi communities?

    The MO-feminist divorce on demand activism is far from irrelevant in the Chareidi communities. Divorce on demand propaganda and activism, some from ORA and some from other groups, continues to make serious inroads into the Chareidi communities. Anti-family feminist domestic violence activists and organizations regularly operate in the Chareidi communities.

    The family destruction occurring as a result of these MO-feminist activists in the various Chareidi communities is not insignificant.

  124. Moe:

    So now you are a Novi! Mazel Tov!

    We wouldn't be having this discussion and this post would be irrrelevant if what you say would be the "working conditions" we live in today in the Orthodox-Charedi-Frum-Chasidish world/s!

    While your long-term historical "prediction" may be true, and who says that when Mashiach comes all the Chasidisha Rebbes won't be be given pink slips and sent home to get jobs and be like all other normal people, but at this time the MOs and their RZ counterparts are huge and have to be reckoned with. They are a huge source of funding for the Charedi worlds both in America and Israel and they are everywhere to be seen and very much alive and well and kicking. So announcing their demise, while it may make you feel good about yourself, are false and way off the mark as far as today's reality is concerned.

    And if they want their lady rabbis, they are going to get their lady rabbis and nothing and no one will stop them. They do not care what you, or this blog or Charedim think or say or do. That is the reality. Get your mind around that.

    You also overlook that a huge sector of the Yeshivisha velt and large parts of the Chasidisha velt are in effect turning into a "modern orthodox" constituency de facto and even de jure.

  125. We don't need anyone to tell us what it says in the Shulchan Aruch. This Rabbi Gordimer carries no weight in either the MO or the Charedi worlds. If Gedolim want to condemn something they don't need Rabbi Gordimer. Let them get up and condemn the MOs and then they will be treated like Karaites of Shabtai Tzviniks. So far nobody has done that, so we go under the working assumption that the MOs are still considered kosher Jews and we do not have to get hysterical about every thing they do, because this is the least of it. They have mixed dancing. They value secular education, they support secular Zionism, they have low or even no mechitzas in their MO synagogues, they have lenient attitudes to relations between the sexes, so why is this now a cause to get all worked up when everyone knows what MOs are?

  126. Today's misnagdim have very little to do with the Vilna Gaon, and do not follow his teachings. For example, the Gra famously wrote that there is no halachic basis for a man to have his head covered - even during davening. Yet, someone who works amongst goyim , if he does not cover his head, will be considered a goy by today's hareidim, whether Hassidic or Mitnagdic.
    Regarding the Religious zionism element of this discussion, again the views and even predictions of the Gra have no place in the Hareidi mindset of today, which is essentially a mamzerised version of Satmar's bizzarre demonology. Torah speaks of only 1 g-d, but for satmar, there is his namesake demon - s-m, who controls things down here. According to Satmar, recognizing miracles is doing avodah to that demon.
    Religious Zionism (and MO), is really the only Monotheistic judaism today. The non-zionist hareidim, who are less satmar, but still deny any miraculous intervention have a theology of Deism, ie they do believe in a creator, but one who is totally absent from this world.

    The closing of the hareidi mind ended with the demise of R' Kahaneman ztl, who did practice hakarat hatov, and celebrated Yom Haatzmaut. This is virtually unheard of in the latter day Hareidi saints.
    I Know Rap has mentioned R' Goren a couple of times, and how the Hareidi world placed him in herem. it is interesting that R Goren once joked about the Hareidim , especially the anti-zionist chapter, that they are the same as the secular atheists, in that both of them deny any place for G-d in the world and in the events in Israel's resurgence.

  127. RaP - you are displaying your ignorance of the field of Psychology. Nothing of great negative importance would happen if Freud never got involved in the field.

    Similarly your understanding of what Esther was is highly questionable - as is your grand historic vision of the role of women.

  128. Rabbi Eidensohn whether one interprets a Maamar Chazal or Divrei Chochma narrowly or broadly is nothing new. I have heard from big Talmidei Chachomim that according to the CHazon Ish all Frum people are Tinokos Shenishbu because that is how he defines the entire Dor, everyone included with no exceptions.

    But really that is all a tangent and not the main focus of our discussion and this post at all. It is reckless to defend the Kamikaze approach of poster Joseph Orlow and I am trying to "bring him down to Earth" from his self-declared "war" and Jihad against the OOs. It is like Don Quixote tilting at windmalls and accomplishes nothing, just confuses poor Joe and will get him into trouble with the MOs and OOs that he needs like two holes in the head!

    Better are the ways and far better to take many steps back and see how to engage PEACEFULLY and not be at war with them since for now they are our Tinokos SheNishbu brothers and sisters. The Gedolim have not placed a known Cherm on them. They are not like Karaites and Shabtaitzvinks. I cite those two and not Reform and Conservative because Reform and Conservative have made it very clear that they do not accept the Divinity of the Torah and they do not accept the authority of the Oral Law and Written Torah equally. Reform have rejected normative Halacha a long time ago and they accept Chillul Shabbos and marrying goyim and the Conservatives, while a long time ago they were a drop better, yet as Rav Moshe Feinstein rules they do not accept the Divine origin of the Torah Shebichsav and Torah Shebeal peh.

    So for now the MOs and OOs make it into the world we can call Orthodoxy. Yes they are pushing the limits and always have been and always will be, remember they are NOT Charedim, they are MODERN, and therefore they do not accept notions like Daas Torah, Gedolim and Rebbes. They are rationalists, it is along Machlokes that stretches back at least to the days of the RAMBAM and even further back. It is what had pitted the Chachmei Sefarad (who were predominantly rationalists and philosophers) as opposed to the Chachmei Tzarfas, before there was the split between Western Europe and Eastern Europe there was the split between Spanish Jewry and French-German Jewry, and it has continued in the struggle between Western democratic egaliatarian outlooks versus more Eastern totalitarian, Monarchical models, and it is a deep clash.

    And it is also in the world of Torah, a world that is not monochrome or static. The world of Rav Hersh, Rav JB Soloveitchik the so-called Modern Orthodox outlook does not accept the demands for conformity and submission to central male dominated authority automatically.

    It is no wonder that in Eastern Europe the Netziv closed down the Volozhin Yeshiva, or was forced to shut it down, because he refused to allow a few hours of secular studies. This continues in various ways, to this day there
    is long-standing Cherem that was put in place by the Chachomim of Yerushalyaim about 150 years or so against allowing any secular studies in any Yeshivos in Yerushalayim, so of course they cannot fathom how comes some people not only allow their sons and daughters to go to college, but also for girls to be allowed to learn Torah like boys and certainly they would never understanding how girls would be encouraged to learn Gemora! Let alone become learned and yikes, want to become "rabbis" and still be Orthodox, this is not fathomable to Yerushalmis steeped in the old ways.

    But the wheels of time are moving quickly. For the last hundred years there has been great change. Hora'as Sha'ah has been the order of the day. Eis La'asos LaShem HeiFeiru Torasecha has become the norm in policy and practice, the world is changing quickly, and with the arrival of more Americans and American ideas and values Israel is about to be changed forever!!!!

  129. @Eddie - your brush strokes are too wide and imprecise. Your "proof" regarding head covering - see Igros Moshe. But then you would probably argue that the misgnagdim don't pay attention to Rav Moshe!?

    the same problem is found in the rest of your comment

  130. So now you are a Novi! Mazel Tov!

    Wierd. Moe cites clear logical proofs - the Pew Research study of American Jewry conducted less than two years ago - and you call him a novi. You, on the other hand, do not cite any study, but simply claim that "moshiach" will hand rebbes pink slips. Would you like to find a hobby?

  131. I was just drawing a sketch rather than a masterpiece, hence the brush strokes.
    My understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - of Rav Moshe, is that he wrote it ie permissible to go uncovered if it meant that they would not give the job if one wears the kippa, but not permissible only if one feels uncomfortable. For sephardim, it was never more than a minhag, to cover the head outdoors, and i was told this was a cultural thing. In Europe, the Christians would uncover their heads in church, so the Yidden would cover them whilst in the Middle east, the Muslims would cover their heads all the time, even when praying, so the Yidden would not be so bothered about uncovering, at least in public.

  132. Psychology has different schools of thought, just like philosophy does, and they love to criticise and mock each other. One professor I know said that Freud is not really psychology at all, and his "proof" was that they didn't teach it in his undergraduate studies. On the other habnd, many would agree that Freud was the most influential figure on modern psychology, even if they dispute the scientific methodology of his theories.

    Regarding Esther, I have a question to the learned members here, and would welcome a good vort. We are told that Esther was forced into gilui arayos, as a matter of pikuah nefesh, but that since she was passive, it was ones, in every sense of the word. Yet it was still a serious issue to be oiver.
    Now, at some point, she is too scared to continue, and Mordechai tells her that if not through her, then it would be through someone else. I know this is referring to petitioning the King, however, if this deterministic view of Morechai held, then why was it necessary for her to suffer from this forced arayos in the first place? why couldnt it have been done through other means?

  133. Moe,

    I can't disagree with your facts, but I disagree with the
    bottom line. Money talks. And the Open Orthodox has the wealth, the
    wealth that if withheld could destroy YU and the OU, and don't they know
    it. That is why you can point out that Avi Weiss is officially a rabbi
    of the OU, despite his OO essence. This money is swallowing up
    Washington, DC, and they are working on a bill that would make all of
    the Gittin in Washington possibly coerced and invalid. They have taken
    over the Hebrew Academy and major Shulls. They are moving forward, and
    nobody is battling them.

    Recall that the OO is open about its
    apikorsus, that it does not believe in Gittin or in the bible. They want
    the name "Orthodox" because they feel that just as Modern Orthodox Jews
    can make changes, such as Herschel Schechter's teaching that you can
    kill husbands who won't give their wives a GET on demand after the
    marriage is broken, than they can deny what they want to deny. That is
    why you point out that many Modern Orthodox are moving to the right.
    They see that the rest is crumbling into non-Orthodoxy and want nothing
    to do with it.

    So, yes, the majority will be ultra-Orthodox,
    but the OO and the Modern won't disappear. And they will, through
    invalid conversions and invalid Gittin, become a community of goyim and
    mamzerim. I pity the children.

    It is time that people realized
    that any child born from a GET given by a Modern Orthodox Beth Din such
    as the RCA is probably invalid. The next generation will begin to
    realize these facts, and I pity the children who are the victims of
    Rabbi Weiss and the other apikorsim.

  134. Will we still have Chasidisha Rebbes when Moshiach finally comes? What happens to all the Chasidim and Chasidus? Will we need it or will it have done its job of saving Yidden and disappear to make way for the Yemos HaMoshiach? Will the Sanhedrin of 70 Z'kenim be made up of Chasidisha Rebbes only? What if some are left out? Do they sit on the Sanhedrin by rotation? Can any Chasidisha Rebbe be regarded as Moshiach? we know what the Lubavitchers think, and all the others are not far behind in assuming that theirthe Moshiach. Can such people be permitted to be Moshiach? Will everyone accept a Chasidisha Moshiach? Will such a Moshiach accept everyone else? If Moshiach is Chasidish will everyone have to grow long beards, long peyos, ladies will have to shave their heads and wear shpitzels, and everyone will daven Nusach Sefard or Nusach Ari?

    I often wonder about such questions as I am sure many do. Do you agree that the VILNA GAON put all the Chasidim into Cherem? Hence, can we have a Moshiach who is in Cherem?

    Get a mind and diet won't you!

  135. Thanks. But as that saying goes "there are no 'ifs' in history"! and making one reference to Freud on a blog run by a psychologist should not cause a problem either. In today's revisionist schools of psychology, Freud, like Aristotle and Plato and many others have been tossed overboard in favor of pop psychology and pop philosophy, people listen to Dr. Phil and Oprah and they are the "authorities" mainly because for most people trying to understand complex thinkers is too hard and takes too much work. I am not referring to you, I am positive you have done your good share of in-depth readings, but some other posters here are not only clueless about psychology but they are hostile and even reject it outright. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT"L famously used to tell people not to go for psychotherapy and to ignore what psychologists and psychiatrist say. So be it, it's a free world.

    As for Queen Esther in Megilas Ester, can you point to the arguments or points to disagree with and why. I would honestly like to know, and how you would explain the significance of Ester HaMalka in the Tanach and what she meant to Jewish history in her times and what it means for us down into our days? Thanks.

  136. The side discussion about Chasidim in this thread has made me think about something, especially for those who like to quote numbers and are impressed with statistics. This Rabbi Adam Mintz above says maybe there will be 100 Modern Orthodox lady rabbis soon, as if that is supposed to impress or shock anyone. So let's say there are all of a sudden even about 1,000 such ladies. First of all the only ones who will be interested in them or think of hiring them will be very Modern Orthodox synagogues and Modern Orthodox Jewish Day Schools. I think the OU lists that it has about 1,200 member synagogues, plus minus and how many Modern Orthodox Jewish days schools are there in North America 100? 200? 300? Not more. Okay, so say there will be about 1,500 openings, not all of them will hire lady rabbis, say it will be half the synagogues and the day schools will need more personnel. Let's just go with a working figure of about 1,000 Orthodox female rabbis floating around North America taking on the the thankless and tough jobs of congregational rabbis (doing funerals, weddings, bar/bat mitsvas, counseling, teaching, tutoring giving speeches) okay, but, now just stop....

    ...Remember the post we just had about Chasidim going off the derech (OTD) and how this place "Footsteps" is welcoming them in droves. Hundreds of male and female Chasidim, often-times already married with children, are dropping out of being Chasidish in spite of all the devastating consequences it has for them and their families on many levels. Supposedly Footsteps claims that in its ten years of existence it has "helped" about 1,200 such people "leave the Chasidic world" many of the young Satmars since Satmar is the biggest single Chasidus in New York and America, maybe even in the world. And more and more such Satmars, Skverers, and others are streaming in. In 20 years Footsteps will not just double its intake rate but will go through a growth explosion of we consider the past and its growing popularity and how well-financed and organized it is.

    Think of it, we worry and condemn the MOs because they talk of producing 100 female rabbis as if that was the end of the world, but we hold back our condemnations of Satmar or Chasidim when we can see with our own ways that they are failing to keep hundreds of their people happy and are losing them all the time, with Footsteps saying it already has more than 1,200 "happy" customers, men as much as women running to be "liberated" by Footsteps (as if it was a new secular "mashiach") and many others are just running away from Yiddishkeit without going to Footsteps, they just vamoose it out of Williamsburg, Monroe, Sver and are never to be seen again, maybe some of them will land up being interviewed on a TV talk show or documentary bitterly complaining about their grievances.

    At this rate it looks like there are going to be a lot more OTD Chasidim who are dropping their Yiddishkeit compared to the relative small numbers of women who make it as so-called "Orthodox rabbis"!

    By the way, one area where female Orthodox rabbis would very useful is in Kiruv to Reform, Conservative and secular Jews in America and to Chiloni rabidly anti-religious Jews, especially youngsters in Israelis government schools who have no clue that Judaism can be meaningful in any way. Maybe those female rabbis could start a process of kindling and interest in Judaism that will then lead to those Jews wanting to know more and that will in turn invariably lead many to seek out real Torah-true Judaism. It is just too hard to tell what will happen because we are still living in the middle of all the battles and the action and the smoke is very thick and there is a lot of noise and flapping around that makes it very hard to navigate to a good ending in this wonderful world of Hakadosh Baruch Hu!

  137. and all the others are not far behind in assuming that their Rebbe will be the Moshiach

    Silly drivel, RaP. No legitimate Chosid thinks this way.

    Serious question: Do you wish you would have an organization such as footsteps help you drop Torah and Mitzvos?

    Anyhow, what did the Chofetz Chaim say about the Gaon's cherem? He acknowledged that Chassidim changed due to the opposition, yet the Cherem is still applicable to parts of two groups....

  138. @RaP - you are rather glibly referring to matters which I am not convinced you know what you are talking about. Freud has not be tossed overboard by revisionist who favor pop psychology. Freud simply did not accurate describe people and his therapy does not work any better than randomly picked alternatives - including no treatment (placebo) and it costs a lot more.

    .As for Queen Esther there are many questions that preclude the black and white statements you have been making. Anyone familiar with the various discussions in Chazal and the commentaries is fully aware of the difficulties

  139. RשP,'s response here is posted by me - there was a mixup between threads.

    RaP_Commentary • 4 hours ago

    I am not arguing with you, and Freud is
    not the subject of any of the discussions. I merely had mentioned one
    known quote from Freud in another post that was then used to attack me
    as "proof" that I am a "feminist" which is just a huge joke. That's all.
    I am not an expert in Freud, but like most people I know he was a major
    figure in the development of psychiatry and psychology, and I was not
    commenting at all if he was a good or lousy therapist which frankly I
    couldn't give a darn about. Most psychiatrists are notoriously bad
    therapists since like most doctors they are often, insensitive, arrogant
    and impatient and are quick to resort to prescribing psychotropic
    medications that quite often are harmful to patients suffering from a
    variety of emotional and mental conditions. But again this is not my

    As for Queen Esther of course there are plenty of
    Chazals, as there are plenty of different Chazals about everything. But
    as we know the Chazals are right now not helping us deal with unique
    challenges of modernity such as the need to give formal education to
    women which in spite of Chazal's prohibition/s, in the last 100 years
    has been over-ridden because of Hora'as Sha'ah and Eis La'asos LaShem Heifeiry Torasecha
    so that even though conventionally over the millennia is was point
    blank Assur to formally teach Jewish girls Torah and there were no
    formal schools for them, yet in the last 100 years the decision of the
    Gedolim of our times over-ruled all the old Chazals that spoke out
    against Chinuch for girls outside of the home and instituted Bais
    Yaakovs and Seminaries and much more to be Mechanech Bnos Yisroel so
    that they not be lost to assimilation and worse.

    Also, Ester runs
    counter to everything that came before her, while in the past it was
    males who were the Melachim (and hence also "Man malchi? Rabbanan!")
    with the onset of Golus the greatest Monarch to come out of the Churban
    of the first Golus is Ester HaMalka a female Jewish ruler over not just
    the Jewish people but over the greatest empire in those times.
    Similarly in our modern age, women have been given new and unexpected
    opportunities to rise to the top, and it should therefore come as no
    surprise that they want and will get even more serious positions of
    leadership in the Torah world. It's happening with the MOs clearly and
    it is already on the way with the rest of the Torah world. But we are in
    the middle of this phenomenon so for now we sit back and stay tuned and
    enjoy the show! less

  140. "Nothing of great negative importance would happen if Freud never got involved in the field."
    That is like a Misnagid saying that there would not have been anything missing had there never been a Hassidic movement. I might agree with the 2nd statement, but not with the first. In fact many areas of modern psychology have taken and adapted freud's ideas to suit their own. Cognitive Dissonance being one example.

  141. "one area where female Orthodox rabbis would very useful" - RaP, you're still mesmerized by your non-Torah feminist religion. Sorry, but halachic Judaism does not allow for women "rabbis". This is a fact you try to avoid discussing at all costs, while trying to divert our attention from this fact by posting long-winded, totally irrelevant discussions about OTD Chassidim and Kiruv to Reform.

    To deprogram yourself from feminism, please repeat after me at least one hundred times:
    "women cannot serve as rabbinic judges" (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 7:4), the rabbinical ordination of women is not valid and is distortive of the very essence of semicha."

  142. @Eddie - I don't see the truth of your statement about the chassidic movement - and with that comparison you could apply it wildly to almost anything without an accurate understanding. Sorry try again.

    I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me with some proof to your claim that cognitive dissonance was originally a Freudian idea or somehow derived from Freud.. That was never presented in any of my psych classes. Nor was the subsequent theory of Attribution Theory ascribed to Freud.

    I tried finding such a linkage now through Google - could find any evidence.

  143. On Freud, try this, esp Ch. 16


    I think the early Mishnagdim held that kind of view towards Chassidism (not Hassidim). Today it is not so much the case, but you might get Groups like Brisk or satmar saying this about everyone else.

  144. Joseph, how does Riskin redefine the term orthodox Jew?

    Are you referring to his lower standards for conversion?
    This could be applied ad absurdum to anyone anywhere who shows a leniency - by using the argument that they redefine Kosher as treif or vice versa. Remember how the netziv described the development of sinas chinnam and destruction of the 2nd Temple. In fact, the war between Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel is described in the Gemara as being akin to Avodah Zarah.

  145. @Eddie - I ask an intelligent question about your alleations of Freud's relationship to Dissonace Theory and you provide a nonsense answer. You claimed that Freud was necessary for Cognitive Dissonance theory - both sources that you provided say no such thing.

    Your nonsense claim that Freud preceded Cognitive Dissonance by 50 years - says absolutely nothing about causal relationships. Please cite a single source that Freud as a necessary historical precursor of Cognitive Dissonance Theory. According to your logic Freud originated the UN as well as the state of Israel because he preceded them!

    Please stop making a fool of yourself. Simply admit you were wrong in your original claim.

    Similarly your vague claims about Misnagdim and Chassidim are meaningless as you formulate them

  146. Ben P (and others): So stop just writing and get your organization to do something constructive."

    Why stop writing? Do both. Besides, find out if he tried with his organization and couldn't get anywhere. Also, if he "sinfully" isn't getting his organization to do something, why should he also "sin" and stop writing (since you and the others agree that he should write)?

  147. Even while using the inflated, unverifiable, numbers of an organization, they max out at 100 people a year. Compare that to how many Satmer Chassidim are born in one week, and you realize the statistical irrelevence of this claim.

    Additionally, to claim that the unfortunates at Footsteps do not include people who grew up Modern Orthodox, is to be unaware. The few people on their videos are not the only ones there. Is there a brand name MO individual amongst them?

    As to these female rabbis, nothing good can out through them. No, they will not be mekarev people. Yes, RaPpers and others made the same claim about the Conservative movement - they will be mekarev and save Jews. I suppose they probably also wrote long winded drashos, in which they jumped to several different topics, to filibuster their say in. History has proven them wrong, as did common sense. The same with the female rabbi enthusiasts; history will prove them wrong, just as common sense proves them wrong now.

  148. Firstly, we have to look at what our dispute was. you deny any positive influence on psychology by freud, whereas i claim there was much influence.

    I am not alone:


    Next, you ask for sources that Freud influenced cognitive dissonance theory, -as if this is halacha and I need to bring a source. Simply look at the concept of "denial" which is halfway down this link http://www.simplypsychology.org/Sigmund-Freud.html

    and see it is not a great step to get from denial to CD.

    If you hear a piece of music and it is very similar to something written a few years earlier, then one can safely say there is an influence. the presence or absence of a law suit does not change this observation.

    Simple historical precedence is not the same as causality or influence. You could say that the Torah influenced secular Zionism, herzl etc. That is because the idea of a return of Jews to israel preceded modern Zionism. It doesnt make Herzl a Torah scholar.

    Here is one "source" which integrates the concept of denial as part of the CD theory. Thus, the freudian denial was an early stage it eh evolution of CD theory.


  149. Don't you maintain that the issue of illegitimate conversions is a foremost concern?

    If it is a way for RaP to beat on certain rabbis, yes. Otherwise, no.

  150. Not "lower standards", but, to quote Monte Python, "and now for something completely different."

    I don't hate Rabbi Riskin. Maybe I'm Halachically required to, but at this point I don't.

    Rabbi Riskin is training women to be Dayanim and who will presumably sit on Batei Din that convert people who will then identify as Orthodox Jews.

    But that is not the way it is done.

  151. Joe, allowing women "rabbis" will open a huge Pandora's box of halachic questions, so that even many MO Jews will probably decide to stay far away from the OO temples to avoid the controversies.

    - Questionable conversions (as you mentioned)
    - Sefer Torahs and tefillin written by women - can the frum public use them?
    - Hazmana from Bais Din of women - does one have to respond?
    - Shechita done by women - is it kosher?
    - Psak from woman rabbi that eruv is kosher - can the frum public rely on it?
    - Woman mohel - can the frum public hire one?

    Perhaps Mr. RaP would like to address these questions?

  152. How do you expect the RCA to condemn OO, when the RCA still has and accepts Avi Weiss as a rabbinical member of their body?

  153. @Honesty and Slipper, I can't keep track of a week's worth (and counting) of opinions. Ben and others focused on RG, recommending him to stop writing, and I disagreed. If you don't have that complaint on RG, I'm on your page for this.

  154. It is callous and cruel to say that "since there are tens of thousands of Satmars born every year, it is 'therefore' somehow okay for them to lose a few thousand Satmars every year"! That's just diabolically twisted. To make such a claim you may as well be a Moloch worshiper and say, "I will have twelve kids and let one be thrown out and be as if offered to Moloch Avoda Zora" and then think you are smart and "normal"! Get a heart whilst you are out there figuring how to get a mind and how to go on a diet!

    Also stop fabricating lies, because nowhere and not time have I ever said that Conservatives do "kiruv" a totally crazy allegation if I ever heard one.

    But as everyone knows the Modern Orthodox do the best Kiruv by far, as proven by NCSY which is run by the OU and the many kids that attend Modern Orthodox Jewish day schools and youngsters that come to YU who would never in a thousand years dream of going to a Charedi yeshiva, but many of these MOs have become Frummer, and as everyone knows many of the old-time Modern Orthodox of the Young Israel movement and Shulls became very Frum, such as many notable families in the Chaim Berlin Yeshiva community, too many to be named at this time but they are well known.

    And there is no reason to think that if the MOs and the OOs produce their female Orthodox rabbis that they will slack off in their proven Kiruv successes of making many people interested in some sort of Orthodoxy which is part of the process and continuum of eventually becoming Frummer and then leaving that behind to become big-wigs in places such as Chaim Berlin and wherever else they will be let in as when the very Modern Orthodox (some of them were barely Shommer Shabbos) Young Israel families joined Chaim Berlin's community to become today's staunch neuvau-"Charedim".

  155. You state, with much basis, that Freudian theories are not taught that much in Psychology classes today. That in and of itself does not mean that modern psychology does not have any basis in Freudian theories.

    Regading Denial -> CD , you claim common elements are not the same as causality. Again, the best example is whether this argument would help a musician in court, if he is being sued for copyright infringement.
    The new writer could argue he uses different instruments, or tempo or key, but if the basic tune has been nicked from the Beatles, and slightly modified, there is grounds for copyright infringement.
    Cd is simply an elaboration of the theory of Denial, with some new chiddushim.

    Here, another writer brings the case (which has already been made in other books) that Attachment theory is also highly derived from freudian theory.


  156. This is not about me. Please do not confuse the topic under discussion and draw false conclusions about me personally, but you are making a joke out of yourself by doing that. Thanks.

    Repeat after me "I do not control the universe" 100 times then try to remember that MOs have been around for the longest amount of time in the USA, and they are not going away any time soon.

    For the record, you do not have to convince me about the Shulchan Aruch, I agree with you, but that is not the discussion! You can fire all the verbal bullets you want at anyone online, but that does not change the reality of anything in the real world. Get your mind around that. Nothing about the MOs shocks me, we try to work with the givens and see how we can improve things as they spiral out of control. We are trying to keep them in the fold and not throw them out to the dogs as you seem to think is the solution. So far the Gedolim have not come out with any clear-cut condemnation of the MOs and OOs and have not place them in any sort of official Cherem. Yes, some have complained like you, but they complain about lots of things while they overlook lots of other serious wrongs, Keyaduah!

    You do not shoot a child because it misbehaves! You try to reason with it and see how you can convince them to improve. If you think reading the Mos the riot act accomplishes anything then good luck, you will be blogging here for a long time to come, and they will still outlive you.

  157. @Eddie - I am ending this ridiculous discussion. You are simply scraping the bottom of the barrel for hints and possibilities. Your original assertion is simply wrong and you have produced no evidence to support it.

    Again Modern Psychology does not need Freud to exist. The fact that he is a highly visible entity does not mean that he is a necessary element. He is not the foundation of Modern Psychology and the vast majority of theories and practices would exist whether he did or not. The fact that Freud is sometimes used as an asmachta - does not mean that he is the basis.

  158. Charedim will never accept Modern Orthodox female rabbis, just as absolutely no Chasidic or Charedi group or Basi Din accepts ANY MOdern Orthodox Bais Din even if with 100% men who are Lomdim and Yerie Shomayaim, but just by serving in MOdern Orthodox Shulls and wearing a Kippa Seruga the Charedim and Chasidim totally reject anything coming from the MOs.

    And not just in the USA, in Israel NO Charedi or Chasidic person accepts the official Israeli Rabbanut and its Batei Din.

    So nothing new is going to be created. The MOs and OOs will just continue to play in their own concentric circles and no one will recognize anything they do just as no one in the Charedi world recognizes what they do today. So your fears are unfounded.

    In any case, let's cross the bridge of lady MO Dayanim when we get to it. Right now they are talking of producing rabbis to serve in synagogues and they are NOT saying that those ladies will count for a Minyan, as far anyone knows, so why worry about that.

    Let's see them produce women who know Shas, know all of Shulchan Aruch and Poskim and could beat any male at a Farher, then we will see what the Gedolim say how to use or accept such women in the Frum world. Right now there is a lot of hot air and panic and much ado about NOTHING from what I can assess at this time.

  159. Yes, I know you miss Tropper terribly and you think he is a big Tazdik, but try to remember he did himself in when he cavorted around with potential females who wanted to become Geirim. He self-destructed all by his little self, no one did anything to him he did it all to himself.

    How's the diet coming along by the way, maybe start with a Ta'anis Dibbur it may be a Segula!

  160. You obviously know nothing of Chasidim, every Chosid KNOWS his own Rebbe is the Mashiach, no news there.

    Your question is stupid. Just let me know how your diet is coming along and if you want everyone to be obese?

    Yes, they say the Lubavitchers and Breslovers are definitely still in Cherem, and maybe the Chofetz Chaim was a nice man, as we all know he was and was being nice to the Chasidim but no one has actually removed the Vilna Gaon's Cherem against them.

  161. I try to avoid using labels like MO. That being said I have friends who might identify as MO, and they seem to have made peace with the rise of OO. If ever there's a place for me to use the term "flabbergasted", this is it.

    Furthermore, based on a front page of a student newspaper at YU that I encountered online, some "MO" students are apparently cool with attending events where OO is involved.

    It's hard to imagine that if there's a Simcha at a local Shul here that has a Maharat or Yoetzes that many MO would not attend if invited to the event by a close friend or a relative. And will these guests suddenly start sending regrets if and when the same Shul hires an assistant Rabbi who is a woman?

    The Ramchal compares a joke to an oiled shield. An oiled shield deflects arrows. A joke deflects rebuke. Some people I talk to about the laws of Gittin make a joke out of Halacha. They quote a Mishna or a Posuk from the Torah, and then they've washed their hands of me and my sources from the Shulchan Aruch.

    When it comes to women slaughtering, I'm guessing they will do the same. And so with circumcision. And I'm sure they are right. It is technically possible, in these cases, for a woman to Shecht and to do Milah. And then it's a short step from there to think that women doing conversions and writing Tefilin is acceptable. To again quote the Ramchal, these people who walk in willful darkness will fall without any awareness they were in danger.

  162. It seems you are more open minded in halachic discussions than in psychological ones. This articel actually concludes what I was implying, ie that there has been a fair deal of usage of Freudian concepts without giving him due credit, in modern psychology

  163. perhaps it will be considered a bet din of hedyot?
    Remember the teshuva of Rav Moshe, we discussed here recently, where I think either Consrvative or reform conversions were considered valid, becasue the candidates thought this was what was required. Again, I am not supporting any initiative of R Riskin, but automatically calling converts "goyim" is not a good thing.

  164. It is callous and cruel to say that since Footsteps claims that about 100 people from all over communicate with them a year, therefore "a few thousand ... every year to going OTD." This is pure insane drivel.

    But as everyone knows the Modern Orthodox do the best Kiruv by far.

    Wrong! Dead wrong! 52% of their own kids abandon Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of high school graduation, and they are somehow successful in bringing others towards authentic Torah observance??? Close to 70% of their teens said that they text on Shabbos (with, or without, the app), and they're good at kiruv??? Kiruv begins with raising your own kids properly.


    Chaim Berlin Yeshiva community

    Wait a second, Mr. "Chaim Berlin Tragedy" from the Circus Tent. You spent years and years, hundreds of thousands of online words criticising Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin as supposed "horrible and vicious" people, and now you use them an example of good deeds????

    As to Young Israel - please educate yourself in what Young Israel's ideology always was.

  165. So from a historical point of view, would you say that the Gra deemed Chassidism as being a threat to Torah Judaism, rather than just extravagant and misguided?

  166. Silly bloated rabbit,the Chaim Berlin Yeshiva, or more specifically RAS & RAF hurt themselves, no one did it to them when they did not just ignore but made a mockery of Rav Moshe Feinstein's polite request that they come before his Bais Din for a Din Torah. That's it. Say what you want, but so far whatever was said I agree with CBT 100%. Can you actually show anything you don't like that was said and we can re-open the discussion right here and now have that old discussion again, it would be tedious but since you are obsessed with it let's get it out in the open and take you out of your evident misery.

    Let me just refresh your memory, the hot debate started when RAS supported Michael Hersh's banishment of his son Isaac to "Tranquility Bay" -- and you know that this blog and many others had lots to say against Hersh and RAS. Don't make it sound like crazy things were said by CBT because they were not. And the point then, is like the point now, that it is virtually CRIMINAL to sacrifice even one Jewish child just because you have lost control of the situation. You do not send a child to prison because he goes OTD, something that is so beyond you that it is indeed pure Chaim Berlin tragedy that was referring to people who think like you! See the officail reaction of leading rabbanim to that including Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky below to refresh your memory some more

    You are too hooked on statistics and modern obsession with numbers something that is totally against Yiddishkeit that views each and every individual as a precious unique world.

    Yes, and it's still the same old cruelty from you and mockery without any logic, that you are willing support the worship of the modern day Moloch Avoda Zora (YOU ARE THE REAL 'MODERN ORTHODOX') and have this nonchalant attitude that as long as tens of thousands of Charedi babies are being born you can "afford" to sacrifice hundreds if not thousands who at the same time go off the derech.

    As for the old time Young Israel people many of them were't even Shommer Shabbos, but they belonged to an Orthodox Shull and wanted their kids to remain Jewish even if they ere in public school, that is the society Rav Yitzchok Hutner came to in the 1930s when he joined and prayed at the Young Israel of New Lotts in Brooklyn and began to slowly Mekarev the off the derech parents and kids and that are today "famous" Chaim Berlin big shots, and you know it. He got people to stop working on Shabbos, start learning and send their kids to his Yeshiva, not like you who wants to destroy any other types that do not fit into your narrow little corner. I am not making any of this up, it's well known. Just let me know how long you wish to keep up this type of useless discussion and avoid talking about the issues by sidelining it with personal swipes at me or at any other poster you hate.

    Sorry but your tactics will not work this time, try as you may, you are going to get a lot of egg in your face this time around.

    Oh yes, and please stop all your talk about other people "projecting" because you ain't no psychologist, just a failed former JHC dropout. Get a life and a diet won't you!

  167. @Eddie - name calling i.e., you are not being open minded - doesn't substitute for substance in this discussion.

    You have a tendency to make strong, clear assertions and then fail to produce evidence or simply claim that it is a rational deduction from subtle inferences - and then you alter what you are claiming as the discussion continues i.e., bait and switch.

    Since you have failed to show a causal relationship between Freud and much of Modern Psychology - there is no need for you saying "well what about this and what about that" - Please admit that your original assertion is simply wishful thinking based on your uneducated impressions of a topic you don't know too much about.

  168. This was my claim: "In fact many areas of modern psychology have taken and adapted freud's
    ideas to suit their own. Cognitive Dissonance being one example." -

    You asked for "sources". I produced several sources. One was a researcher who linked Bowlby's Attachment theory to Freudian psychoanalytical theory.
    The second was a published paper which found empirical evidence for Freud's defence mechanisms in modern psychological theory, with the conclusion that there has actually been geneivas daat on the part of modern psychologists by not citing the original Freud which were the source of their ideas.

    I also presented the case for the close similarity between "Denial" (Freudian) and CD. This is quite obvious, who needs a source when you have sevara,! It also appears that your area of expertise does not extend to the Philosophy of Science and the development of scientific theories. But i would also extend this to science itself. What you are essentially saying is that there is no new theory in science without having a published reference on which to base the theory! This is a quite absurd statement.
    I am making a case for an argument, which you are saying is only valid if someone else has made it before. This is precisely the opposite of what all research science is about. That is why I said you are more open minded in halacha, than in psychology. That is not name calling at all, it is a descriptive statement of your approach to 2 - lehavdil, separate disciplines.

    In any case both of your positions are false -

    a) That I need a source to make my comment

    b) That there are no sources which back me up.

  169. Hey, uh, Rap_Commentary, I wuz wonderin'...d'ya think the money flow from MO to certain schools and organizations has anything to do with a dearth of criticism from some quarters?

    Just askin'.

  170. I'm no expert, but I encounter questionable converts all the time and I have to deal with the issue.

    One of my business colleagues that I work closely with is a fine man. He has a history of anti-semitism in his family and feels strongly that his conversion to Judaism is a way of rectifying things such as Klu Klux Klan activity of some of his ancestors, and other anti-semitism he assumes existed in his family for many centuries.

    My colleague is not a Jew, though. He did not have a valid conversion. He respects that I do not consider him a Jew.

    More difficult to assess is a former student who had a conversion performed by three Rabbis, one who is recognized as an expert world-wide, albeit no longer by me. After the conversion I encountered the phenomenon I mentioned in a previous comment on this post, namely, that non-Jews in my experience can exhibit signs of dismay when confronted with Kedusha. The young man in question showed embarrassment during a discussion of performing Mitzvos.

    It was at this time I began investigating further this world-famous Rabbi and uncovered that he played footsie with Open Orthodoxy before seemingly abandoning them. However, I discovered he apparently did not entirely reject them, as he is Posek for a school where an OO Rabbi plays an outsized role. Other evidence led me to question whether the boy is Jewish. In this case, the issue resolved itself as the family has little to do with me now.

    Eddie, is not the Halacha that a Shomer Shabbos Goy is Chayav Mi'sa? Calling false converts Jews cannot be a good thing, either.

  171. Again: It is obviously not the hanky-panky conversions that bother you, as you are advocation many more of them through your support for female rabbis. Your issue with EJF was obviously your long standing little fight with YRCB. The end.

  172. You obviously know nothing of Chasidim

    Once again RaP puts his ignorance on display.

    every Chosid KNOWS his own Rebbe is the Mashiach

    Completely incorrect. Since you have been rambling on about Satmer, I challenge you to find 5 Satmer Chassidim that think with Rav Ahron, or Rav Zalmen Leib, is Moshiach. You will not find even one chossid who thinks this way, even in the largest Chassidus, Satmer.

  173. Say what you want, but so far whatever was said I agree with CBT 100%

    Of course you agree with yourself. LOL

    Please do not deny that you are Mr. "Chaim Berlin Tragedy". It is a fact that is obvious to any reader who has seen your long winded drashos.


    You are too hooked on statistics and modern obsessions with numbers something that is totally against Yiddishkeit that unlike you views each and every individual as a precious unique world.


    Thats what happens when a guy claims that 100 from all over is like a few thousand from one place. LOL


    you ain't no psychologist, just a failed former JHC dropout. Get a life and a diet won't you!


    What is JHC? What type of diet, dear RaP?

    As to the rest of your writings in your off-topic rant, I decided to ignore it.

    Good luck dear RaP.

  174. Baloney. I do not support female rabbis of any sort. All I say is that it is a waste of time to fight the MOs and OOs on this issue because they will do what they want, all we can do is try to UNDERSTAND what is going on and why this is happening. I will say it again, and try to listen, that when it comes to educating Orthodox girls and women, the MOs are only crossing the bridge that the Frum world and Charedim built" based on introducing Torah Chinuch for Jewish women that the MOs are only taking to the next logical level. If you can't hear that, and just want to twist words, then you are just a cheap little liar or worse, so try to be "honest" for change won't you!

    RAS supported Tropper to the very end and still does, so it i is RAS who is to blame for that and that has nothing to do with anyone else. If you support RAS's support for Tropper then all I can say is shame on you, you Chaim Berlin tragedy.

    Just to remind you of the connections between RAS take a look at the resignation letter/s from Tropper himself, appended below, even in his hour of shame and disgrace as RAS tries to bale him out. And you are ready to "LOL" at me, maybe the out of town California-type craziness got to you at some point, or is it the unhealthy high fat diet that everyone knows is harmful to one's well-being:

  175. They all thought that Rav Yoelish Teitelbaum ZT"L was Moshiach!

    The current ones are great-nephews who are fighting over MONEY and TERRITORY, the last thing on their minds is bringing Moshiach, because he would fire them ASAP for the Chillul HaShem they caused by taking their fight to Arkaos and not settling their Machlokes in Bais Din.

    When they can agree on who is the real Rebbe, maybe, just maybe, they could allow others to move on and get to the usual fantasies as to if the Rebbe is Mashiach.

    You think I don't know Chasidim because you have family in Satmar. Guess what I too have family in Satmar and I know what's going on! And it's not pretty. Be honest for a change won't you, and stop acting like your mission in life is to fight me, it is just stupid!

  176. They all thought that Rav Yoelish Teitelbaum ZT"L was Moshiach!

    No, they did not! Rav Yoel made it very clear when he made a mistake, so as to make it clear that he is human, and therefore prone to errors.

    Unlike, of course, certain self-proclaimed....

    The current ones are great-nephews who are fighting over MONEY and TERRITORY

    Ignorance on display, yet again.

    You think I don't know Chasidim because you have family in Satmar?

    Did I ever say that? Ignorance. Your descriptions and fantasies make it clear that you do not know what your rambling about.

    Be honest for a change won't you, and stop acting like your mission in life is to fight me, it is just stupid!

    Paranoid, much, are we?

    Please quit projecting your life mission of fighting .... onto me and others.

  177. "Honesty" who is not that, the great analyst of "projection"! He does not know how to debate, just gets off the point and then if you say anything he will say you are doing it. Paranoid, ignorance, fantasies instead of talking to the point, always ready to defend any Charedi wrong, even if he has to keep at till.

    What a silly big boy you are! Remember "Portnoy's complaint" no wonder they complained against you too!

    Okay, again, let's get this straight, you have already agreed that the Vilna Gaon put all the Chasidim in Cherem, with supposedly the Chofetz Chaim watering it down a bit, mainly done to work against Maskilim not because he agreed with the Chasidim CH"V, since he would never Pasken against the GRA.

    On the other hand, so far, no Litvisha Gedolim have come out and Paskened Behedya that the MOs and OOs are in Cherem, so there is a de facto as well as de jure tolerance for their antics because they are NOT deemed to be a danger on the scale that Chasidism posed to Torah-true Yiddishkeit.

    (Side note: By the way, please NOTICE how I will try to stick to the topic of this post and not get caught up in side swipes like the other heckler here...)

    That is why it is useless and a waste of time getting all worked about yet another "innovation" the MOs come up with, which is not that much of an innovation for them since they have been at this game of producing over 120 To'anot (female Halachic lawyers) who go into regular Israel Batei Din to represent women in front of the all-male Dayanim. In the USA they have started to produce "Maharats" and many MO synagogues have been hiring these type of MO woman in all sorts of positions in there institutions. The English yated in America does not like it and will have columns from time to time attacking the OOs, but this does not stop them and they are gearing up for female MO Orthodox rabbis. Nu nu, yet another splash in the mud for them.

    NO Charedim will ever recognize that or Daven in such a place or go to such a place, so this is never going to effect Charedi life. Unless of course, I say with tongue in cheek, the BJJ girls that Rebbetzin Bruria David has been educating as if they were top Talmidei Chachomim suddenly decide that they no longer wish to just "support" their husbands in Kollel but they too, these learned BJJ alumna will now wish to become the Roshei Kollel themselves. Is that what the Yated crowd fears? Maybe they should move to have all women wear Taliban robes and not drive and not be seen in public and stop all education for Frum girls and women, maybe that will allay their fears.

    So let's back off this topic and just see where it all leads, because attacking me with all sorts of stupid insults is just a huge waste of off-topic time that solves nothing.

  178. the MOs are only crossing the bridge that the Frum world and Charedim built based on introducing Torah Chinuch for Jewish women

    Incorrect. It does not seem that you are well versed in Jewish history. Why don't you give us a chronological order of how things happened. What year was the first Maimonides school opened? Were they co-ed? Who was their leader? (Has just about every Maimonides school closed down? Is the one that is open co-ed?)


    LT's resignation letter does not prove anything. It is actually something that he deserves credit for. He sought to make sure that Kol Yaakov will have a proper leader. The end.


    maybe the out of town California-type craziness got to you at some point, or is it the unhealthy high fat diet

    What in the world are you rambling about?

  179. He does not know how to debate, just gets off the point

    A hearty laugh is always healthy, and you provide many of them! :-)


    Remember "Portnoy's complaint" no wonder they complained against you too!

    The ramblings of a madman.


    you have already agreed that the Vilna Gaon put all the Chasidim in Cherem, with supposedly the Chofetz Chaim watering it down a bit, mainly done to work against Maskilim not because he agreed with the Chasidim CH"V, since he would never Pasken against the GRA.

    Incorrect. The Chassidim changed. The end. You have conveniently skipped out Rav Chaim of Volozhin....


    On the other hand, so far, no Litvisha Gedolim have come out and Paskened Behedya that the MOs and OOs are in Cherem, so there is a de facto as well as de jure tolerance for their antics because they are NOT deemed to be a danger on the scale that Chasidism posed to Torah-true Yiddishkeit.

    Besides for making an incorrect inference, you are obviously pretending to be unaware that a cherem would only hurt Torah true Jews here.


    (Side note: By the way, please NOTICE how I will try to stick to the topic of this post and not get caught up in side swipes like the other heckler here...)



    That is why it is useless and a waste of time getting all worked up about yet another "innovation"...

    Well, if A and B are wrong, certainly the C derived from A and B is incorrect as well.


    attacking me with all sorts of stupid insults is just a huge waste of off-topic time that solves nothing.


    I once made a list of 37 abusive terms you used a single comment. Yes, you have toned it down. There is still much work to be done. Let's take some of your recent ones.

    * Silly bloated rabbit

    * silly big boy

    * Portnoy's complaint

    * the out of town California-type craziness got to you

    * your unhealthy high fat diet

    * you seem to be on the same cool-aid trip

    * cruelty from you and mockery without any logic

    * worship of the modern day Moloch Avoda Zora (YOU ARE THE REAL 'MODERN ORTHODOX')

    * you are going to get a lot of egg in your face

    * just a failed former JHC dropout

    * Just let me know how your diet is coming along or if you want everyone to be obese?

    * diabolically twisted


    I wish you well, dear RaP.


please use either your real name or a pseudonym.