Yesterday on Tzom Gedaliya (Oct 2) I was at a well known shul where a well known Rav spoke between mincha & maariv. Amongst other things he was talked about the greatness and uniqueness of Rav Moshe Feinstein. He said the following. There is a story in the Artscroll biography describing an incident in which Rav Moshe cited a Pri Megadin during a shiur. One of those present argued that the citation was off by one simon. Rav Moshe insisted on the spot that a sefer be brought and it be determined whether he was right. When he was asked why it was so important, he replied that since he poskened from memory - if his memory wasn't perfect he could no longer posken from memory.
The Rav who was speaking added that he had heard in the name of Rav Elimelech Bluth- who was Rav Moshe's shamash for 20 years - that he had not seen Rav Moshe learn from a sefer in the last 20 years of his life. He was so busy - he had to rely on his memory in order to posken.
Tonight I was a family simcha which was attended by Rav Bluth and I asked him whether he in fact had said that he hadn't seen Rav Moshe learn from a sefer in the last 20 years of his life. He responded, "I can't say it so because it isn't true."
UPDATE:
I called the rav this morning ( Oct 4). He is truly an ish emes. He said he had heard directly from Rav Bluth that Reb Moshe hadn't looked in sefer for 20 years, I told him Rav Bluth denied it. He immediately called Rav Bluth and was told he had misunderstood him. Rav Bluth told him that Reb Moshe was not constantly looking in a sefer but was constantly writing but he did use seforim to look up issues. The rav called me back to explain his error and said he would publicly announce his error today in shul after mincha. I was astounded that the rav was so focused on emes and the effort to correct what seemed a relatively minor issue (though important to understand the derech of psak of Rav Moshe Feinstein) , he said the Chazon Ish and others said to be careful to tell the precise truth about gedolim. He thanked me for informing him of the error.
This passion for the truth that this rav demonstrated is the foundation of emunas chachomim. We presume that our sages have such a concern for truth. However if we see in otherwise - there is no mitzva to be stupid. Emunas chachomim is not a synonym for intellectual laziness and lack of concern for reality.
UPDATE:
I called the rav this morning ( Oct 4). He is truly an ish emes. He said he had heard directly from Rav Bluth that Reb Moshe hadn't looked in sefer for 20 years, I told him Rav Bluth denied it. He immediately called Rav Bluth and was told he had misunderstood him. Rav Bluth told him that Reb Moshe was not constantly looking in a sefer but was constantly writing but he did use seforim to look up issues. The rav called me back to explain his error and said he would publicly announce his error today in shul after mincha. I was astounded that the rav was so focused on emes and the effort to correct what seemed a relatively minor issue (though important to understand the derech of psak of Rav Moshe Feinstein) , he said the Chazon Ish and others said to be careful to tell the precise truth about gedolim. He thanked me for informing him of the error.
This passion for the truth that this rav demonstrated is the foundation of emunas chachomim. We presume that our sages have such a concern for truth. However if we see in otherwise - there is no mitzva to be stupid. Emunas chachomim is not a synonym for intellectual laziness and lack of concern for reality.
And what's the big aveira here? That the rov made a mistake in his story? Not the biggest deal.
ReplyDeleteDovid said...
ReplyDeleteAnd what's the big aveira here? That the rov made a mistake in his story? Not the biggest deal.
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your comment is bizzare! No accusations were made regarding aveira. But there is something called truth. In this case an assertion is being made about the nature of Rav Moshe's halachic methodology which simply isn't true. It also was a statement that Rav Moshe was too busy to learn from a sefer for 20 years - that also was not true.
When a person says truth is not a big deal I would have questions about his yiddishkeit and general honesty.
And what's the big deal here? That some rov somewhere had his story wrong? Not the end of the world. Happens all the time in all matters in life, in all circles, regarding all issues.
ReplyDeleteTo say a Rav didn't open a sefer for 20 years is not a compliment, even though the point was to show that the Rav had everything memorized. Even if he had memorized everything, what is the point in emphasizing that? A photographic memory is a gift from H, and reveals little about one's character.
ReplyDeleteThe Rav's greatness is more evident in the fact that he didn't want to make a mistake (emes!), and that he was humble enough to consider that he had, and that he wanted to check himself (even though he was in public), and was obviously willing to correct himself in public. That is awesome and something to learn from.
There are always two perspectives. One can emphasized Rav Moshe's intellectual honesty in calling for a sefer to confirm his citation instead of shouting down his opponent. Or one can create an account of how "perfect" he and his memory were.
ReplyDeleteThis is the problem with the hagiographies that dominate the market today. They are full of amazing stories that never actually happened but the authors don't seem to realize that when those stories are debunked the rest of the histories, as accurate as they might be, will be disbelieved as well!
To not open up a sefer for 20 years and still be 100% sure in every psak would be quite an level to reach in gadlus in limud haTorah and psak. I don't know if there is anyone in this generation or the last or at anytime who reached that height -- even R' Moshe. It's a nice story to tell over. Usually these stories (when not true) simply go to show what type of generation we live in by the exaggerated stories that are told.
ReplyDeletewhat's the CHIDUSH in this story?,after all we all know and even Art Scroll themselves know it,that 95% of these REBBISHE and GEDOLIM stories,are pure fiction and a figment of the story tellers imagination,there is a well known VORT from the Satmerer Rebbi z"l, about why there is a MINHAG by CHASIDIM on MOTZEI SHABBOS at the MELAVE MALKA,to tell over REBBISHE stories?,the answer could be,because CHAZAL tell us that on SHABBOS even an AM-HAARETZ would not tell any lies,so by MOTZEI SHABBOS,every one has his stomach all packed up wth lies that could not have been unpacked on SHABBOS,therefore as soon as SHABBOS is over,at the MELAVA MALKA everyone unpacks and gives out the acumulated SHEKARIM
ReplyDeleteCHAIM.S
Is there even in fact such a story in the Artscroll book?
ReplyDeleteWe might be missing the point here: Rav Moshe's reason for looking up the Pri Migadom could have been quite simple: The Pri Megadim himself holds that EVERY TIME a Posek wants to pasken, he must first look up things up, just to be sure he hasn't forgotten anything. See פמ"ג סדר שואל ונשאל השלישי אות א, שו"ת שמש צדקה יו"ד ס' ל"ז.
ReplyDeleteMost מורי הוראה do not follow this opinion, but R' Moshe might have wanted to make sure that he need not be Machmir, so he wanted to check.
I called the rav this morning.bhe is truly an ish emes. said he had heard directly from Rav Bluth that Reb Moshe hadnt looked in sefer for 20 years, I told him Rav Bluth denied it. He immediately called rav buth and was told he misunderstood Rav Bluth
ReplyDeleteRav Bluth had said Reb Moshe was not constantly looking in a sefer but was constatly writing but he did use seforim to look up issues
ReplyDeletethe rav called me back to explain his error and said he would publicly announce his error today in shul after mincha
I was astounded that the rav was so focused on emes and the effort to correct what seemed a relatively minor issue, he said the chazon ish and others said be careful to tell precise truth about gedolim he thanked me for informing him of the error
ReplyDeleteConsidering it is a minor issue, like I said above and you finally now admit, I still don't see why you made a big stink over a mistake -- which is exactly how I described it above and the rov now clarified to you it was (a misunderstanding.) It's hardly the world's greatest error.
ReplyDeleteAnd that you were "astounded" that the rav was so focused on emes and the effort to correct what seemed a relatively minor issue says much about your own lack of emunas chachomim.
ReplyDeleteAnd how you hold choshuva rabbonim in disrepute for no good reason.
ReplyDeleteQuickly and even over minor mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI heard once that if you believe all the stories about "gedolim" you are an idiot and if you do do not believe in any you are a kofer.
ReplyDeleteDovid said...
ReplyDeleteConsidering it is a minor issue, like I said above and you finally now admit, I still don't see why you made a big stink over a mistake -- which is exactly how I described it above and the rov now clarified to you it was (a misunderstanding.) It's hardly the world's greatest error
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Dovid you have a serious problem in basic reading comprehension. I said "a relatively minor issue". The Rav recognized the significance of the issue - something you can not wrap your head around. He made the effort to immediately clairify from his source and took the trouble of notifying me as well as to correct his error publicly. Other talmidei chachom I have discussed this with are well aware that this is a signficant issue in understanding the Igros Moshe and Rav Moshe's derech in psak. For you it is basically a tempest in a teapot. I would suggest you stop making comments on blogs about issues you know nothing about.
Dovid said...
ReplyDeleteAnd that you were "astounded" that the rav was so focused on emes and the effort to correct what seemed a relatively minor issue says much about your own lack of emunas chachomim.
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Dovid another stupid comment. Emunas chachomim is based on the assumption that the chachomim are seeker of truths. It is not a synonym for intellectual and spritual laziness. This rav's concern for the truth is not typical and that is why I am pointing them out.
Your rude and ignorant comments, unfortunately are not so rare. The only reason I posted them is to provide a clear example of what a committed Jew should not be like.
Dovid, you want to minimize this speaker's mistake, but anyone who stands in front of a kehilla, should have his facts straight because people will inherently believe him (that is basic emunas chachamim).
ReplyDeleteI think the real point is that there was a mistake in the first place. It was presented as fact in a public forum by a rav, and due to emunas chachamim, probably almost everyone believed him. But it was a mistake, wrong, sheker. And then Daas Torah challenged him.
And what we learn from this, is emunas chachamim is dangerous, because many times the public believes what the rabbonim are saying, and some times those rabbonim can be mistaken about really important issues.
Thank G-d there are people like Daas Torah, using their critical thinking skills and willing to invest the time, thought and effort into researching and searching for the truth, and are willing to question and challenge rabbonim,and invite integrity and accountability.
Wo wo, don't get ahead of yourselves Rocky and DT. I don't know what R. Bluth remembers or not, but I can testify that R. Moshe's son R. Reuven told me personaly that he doesn't remember his father ever learning from a sefer besides mishnayos. He added: it could have been he learnt in yeshiva or other places, but as far as I recall at home it was only mishnayos.
ReplyDeleteAnd now for this whole Pri Megadim story, I heard this story from R. Moshe's grandson (though I don't recall if I had ever verified it with any of R. Moshe's sons) with a different setting, as follows: R. Moshe was sitting together with R. Kamenetsky and R. Ruderman on sukkos. In middle of their discussion a reference to a Mishneh Berura [I believe it was] mas made where RR & RK cited one sif katan and RF said it was a different one. RF got all nervous and insisted on going inside to check who was right. When he returned calm he explained that he had to check if his memory was still entact because if not etc.
(IMHO, Artscroll bio's (and the likes) may be nice to read privately, whereas if one would like to cite a story mentioned there it's best he prefaces it by saying "the Arttscroll book ... says" because they are many times far from accurate. I haven't ever read any of their books on R. Moshe, but I was told by someone else that they bring two different pictures of him where you can see him writing once with his left and once with his right. See for yourself because I haven't.)
if rabbi art scroll says it happened, it happened.
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The Real Deal said...Wo wo, don't get ahead of yourselves Rocky and DT. I don't know what R. Bluth remembers or not, but I can testify that R. Moshe's son R. Reuven told me personaly
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An anonymous commment doesn't have much credibility against what I heard directly from Rabbi Bluth.
The issue as I see it is, how could any adult believe such narishkeit to begin with? Some of us have lost touch with reality. In the old days a "story" like this was the one where Rabbi Akiva Eger was staying in an inn and asked the keeper if he had any seforim. He was handed a single volume of Rashba. RAE noticed a missing page, so he wrote the entire page from memory. Now while that's an astounding mental feat - assuming it's true - that's a far cry from "Reb Moshe never looked in a sefer for 20 years because he knew everything al peh, and this is how he paskened." What is wrong with us if we can believe such things? When the Noda Beyehuda quotes a biblical concordance in his second teshuva, are we supposed to believe that he knew the concordance by heart?
ReplyDelete