Friday, January 15, 2010

Shunning intermarried couples & p.c.


Jewish Press by Rabbi Philip Lefkowitz

I was brought up in the Italian-Jewish neighborhood of Bensonhurst, Brooklyn. I vividly recall the sights, sounds and smells of my youth. The kosher deli with its aroma of pickles in a barrel, the Italian deli with its pungent provolone cheese hanging in the window, the barber shop with its background of Italian opera, the newsstand offering a selection of Yiddish and Italian newspapers, and, of course, the ever present sounds of Yiddish and Italian that permeated the streets. It was a wonderful and colorful world.

And the people? We all got along in an atmosphere of mutual respect. In the morning, older Jewish men carrying tallis and tefillin on their way to shul would greet the Italian widows, dressed in black, caressing their rosary beads and mumbling the "Hail Mary" on their way to first mass. [...]

10 comments :

  1. http://eng.itim.org.il/?CategoryID=208&ArticleID=208

    The list of batei din in the galus approved by the Rabbanut is supposed to be a secret, but Seth Farber has posted them on his website.

    Some but not all EJF affiliates are approved as well as many non-EJF.

    It's surprising that they accept Rabbi Ralbag who is known for bittul kiddushin and other dubious .practices

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  2. http://www.geirutmontreal.org/downloads/GeirutCurriculum.pdf

    The RCA affiliate that is on the counter-attack against Tropper does have some odd conversion criteria.

    Their gerim are required to read Martin Gilbert's Holocaust memoir which depicts an inappropriate sex scene in the ghetto.

    And why must they learn a history of Zionism?

    http://www.geirutmontreal.org/downloads/GeirutStandards.pdf

    The cost is $2150 per person

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  3. What about the part about treating our Non-Jewish neighbors with respect?
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  4. Montreal, you asked about teaching geiring about Zionism.

    Zionism, like charedus, MO, Chassidish, litvish, et al, is not perfect.

    Zionism feed hundreds of thousands of mouths a day. Zionism makes room for those who spit on them and refer to them as 'goyim'. Zionists have laid down their lives to protect those who could care less about them. Zionists pay heavy taxes so an entire class of am haaratzim can live as kanoim at the public trough.

    Zionism is not perfect by any means, but when all is said and done, there is much to grateful for.

    I know, I'm treif.

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  5. The main point of the article was not that we should do more to shun intermarried couples but that especially when people do horrible acts like abusing others perhaps they should be shunned and not be welcomed back and forgiven. I wonder how he would apply this to Tropper.

    But do you really believe that this kind of idea should go so far that we should shun intermarried couples even if one person wants to convert and the Jewish spouse is becoming more observant? Shunning such a couple would be a great chillul Hashem, making Orthodox Jews look like unreasonable and heartless zealots, like the kind of people who start family feuds and such nonsense. This is like those Charedim who think the non-Orthodox are evil and should never be given the time of day(with Chabad of course having the opposite point of view, to their credit).

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  6. Growing Up said...
    Montreal, you asked about teaching geiring about Zionism...
    ===================================

    No one said anything about "Zionism", it was just asked why they have to study the history of Zionism. Zionism is not M'Ikrei Hadas according to most poskim last time I checked, and I hope that they won't revoke the Giyur of someone who joins Satmar.

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  7. yeshaya said...

    "Shunning such a couple would be a great chillul Hashem, making Orthodox Jews look like unreasonable and heartless zealots..."

    I believe you suffer from a common misconception among frum Jews.

    Chillul Hashem is not about what the goyim will think. It is about doing something treif bifarhesya in such a way that many people witness it.

    To put it badly but as well as I can, it is an action that tries to make Hashem's laws lose face, which is a chilul of Hashem.

    If you do something that is correct, even if the goyim don't understand it (like circumcision when they were all against it), it is not a chilul hashem.

    This is different from circumstances one must avoid because others may think you are committing an aveyroh when you really aren't (marass eyin). I haven't learned that sugya in quite a while, but I don't remember marass eyin applying to goyim. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm not taking a stand on the shunning issue. Maybe our society will no longer tolerate our acting like we once did. At that time and place the police accepted the fact that one defended his honor with a punch in certain situations. Now you can go to jail for years.

    As the old saying goes, as the goyim go, so go the yidden. Maybe rabbonim could say today that we could lose teenage Jews if they were so influenced by society that they felt shunning to be heartless, and therefore would suggest not shunning in that situation.

    I don't think it's a simple call even hypothetically. Real situations are much more complicated still.

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  8. Moses-

    It is true Zionism is not M'Ikrei Hadas.

    Then again, unlike Satmar, Zionism doesn't pasul anyone who doesn't see things their way. From where I sit, that may indeed be an lesson from the Ikrei Hadas.

    You really don't want to compare Satmar to Zionism when it comes to real and concrete examples of Ahavas Yisroel.

    I would sooner have someone study the inclusionary midos of yiddshkeit as opposed to the more exclusionary expressions.

    Let's not rewrite history or romanticize Satmar or Neturei Karta.

    I used to be a more forgiving fellow when it came to Satmar, et al. Go to Poland and visit Auschwitz. Then tell me what you think when you see the behamos who embrace and kiss the Amalek and Haman that is Ahmadenijad.

    There are moral absolutes. There is right and wrong that cannot and ought not be explained away, no matter long the beard or how white the stockings.

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  9. Yeshaya said:

    But do you really believe that this kind of idea should go so far that we should shun intermarried couples even if one person wants to convert and the Jewish spouse is becoming more observant? Shunning such a couple would be a great chillul Hashem, making Orthodox Jews look like unreasonable and heartless zealots, like the kind of people who start family feuds and such nonsense

    As a rabbi of a small orthodox community for ten years I can tell you that the guidelines I was given for work with with such couples, once they became committed to being shomer Torah u'mitzvos and a giyur k'halacha was based totally on the separation of the couples until the geiros was completed. If they are sincere about keeping halacha, how can they live together? In one case,after the giyur, he went to learn in Eretz Yisroel for 6 weeks, and when he was flying back, she went. After her return, they were married. this is consistent with halacha.

    Contrast this to putting couples who are serious about giyur k'halacha up in 5 star hotel rooms, and you have a lot of questions.

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  10. I believe you suffer from a common misconception among frum Jews.

    Chillul Hashem is not about what the goyim will think. It is about doing something treif bifarhesya in such a way that many people witness it.

    To put it badly but as well as I can, it is an action that tries to make Hashem's laws lose face, which is a chilul of Hashem.

    If you do something that is correct, even if the goyim don't understand it (like circumcision when they were all against it), it is not a chilul hashem.
    ======================
    Chilul hashem is also the result of what the goyim think

    Yerushalmi (Kiddushin 4): R’ Hoshea said, “Greater is kiddush HaShem then chillul HaShem. The chillul hashem is to hang a corpse on a gallows and the kiddush haShem was that they were punished because of mistreatment of converts done by Shaul and his sons were punished by executing them and leaving their bodies hanging for a long time on the gallows.

    Yevamos (79a):[[ And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water was poured upon them from heaven; and she suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on then by day, nor the beast of the field by night.17 But, surely, it is written, His body shall not remain all night upon the tree!18 — R. Johanan replied in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: It is proper that a letter be rooted out of the Torah so that thereby the heavenly name shall be publicly hallowed. For passers-by were enquiring, ‘What kind of men are these?’ — ‘These are royal princes’ — ‘And what have they done?’ — ‘They laid their hands upon unattached19 strangers’ — Then they exclaimed: ‘There is no nation in existence which one ought to join as much as this one. If [the punishment of] royal princes was so great. how much more that of common people; and if such [was the justice done for] unattached proselytes, how much more so for Israelites

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