Monday, January 11, 2010

EJF's response to Rav Dunner

5tJewish Times
5tJewish Times

EJF: Your interview with Rabbi Aba Dunner, the executive director of the Conference of European Rabbis (January 7, 2010), unfortunately twists the truth about Eternal Jewish Family International



  1. the letter makes very compelling arguments also refers to the scandel as fact not as allegedly i guess we now have something we can agree on` it did happen the question is only what should happen with ejf i vote gedolie yisroel not the bloggers

  2. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 11, 2010 at 11:51 AM

    The viciousness and bluntness of the attack against rabbi Dunner and the London Bais Din, proves that Tropper is still very much running the show because only he has that level of venom and hate to respond like that to a supposed fellow rov whose only "crime" is to have a change of heart, distance himself from EJF=Tropper which is the rational and moral thing to do under the present circumstances, and has the courage of his convictions to be quoted for the record.

    The fact that whoever-is-now-in-charge at the fully discredited EJF feels the need to respond to a far-off rabbi in Europe involved with a juicy bais din EJF they thought they had a stranglehold on, speaks volumes.

    People at EJF are in full panic mode now. They can live without Tropper, maybe, since he can always funnel cash and dictate to them behind the scenes, but the folks at EJF CANNOT live without gullible cowed and intimidated sucker batei din that it strings along in far off places that is the bread and butter of the conversion industry.

    Batei din are the "conversion factories/mills" that EJF cannot exist without to be anything in its stated line of work of granting the universe "universal conversions", and Dunner's rebellion by taking the London Bais Din with him, is the first open revolt in the ranks that has split EJF itself wide open and brought on the worst damage to itself as an organization, since Tropper contaminated it with his repulsive sexcapades that were blown open forcing him and R EB Wachtfogel to resign as heads of EJF consecutively. It is Tropper HIMSELF who has brought the self-inflicted problems into the heart of EJF giving it a heart stoppage and NOT Rabbi Dunner or bloggers or Shannon Orand or any other SCAPEGOATS!

    Batei din are the soft-underbelly of EJF, the vulnerable rabbis and dayanim running batei din in far off places that cannot afford to be tainted with ANY shmutz or scandals because credibility is key to rabbis wishing to sit in judgment over other human beings be they Jews or gentiles wishing to become Jews.

    Rabbi Dunner and his London Bis Din deserve a huge YASHAR KOACH and CHAZAK, CHAZAK from the Torah world and they must not succumb to the verbal abuse and bullying tactics that are so obvious from this Trpper-inspired=EJF-propaganda statement masking itself as an "interview" --they are using this fake "Socratic method" of question and answer in the big glossy ads they are placing in the English Jewish papers as well trying to lead readers by the nose away from the truth, reality and the facts, to the wishy-washy half-baked lies and distortions emanating from the EJF DAMAGE CONTROL aparat now in over-paid over-time over-drive!!!

    Hopefully with this trend all the batei din that EJF has lured-in with their admitted treife gelt from Tropper's own hands coming from his non-frum enabler Tom Kaplan, who saves leopards and feeds tortoises when he is not feeding rabbis like Tropper in the name of "saving the Jews" via the dead-in-the-water scandal-tainted EJF that now hangs around the necks of its bosses like a dead albatross.

  3. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 11, 2010 at 11:52 AM

    It is also amusing to watch whoever put togethre this PR response, it was probably from the house of LUBICOM again composed by none other than highly-paid EJF propaganda czar Menachem Lubinsky, or perhaps it came from EJF-chosid Dennis Rapps, the lawyer at the Jewish Press who wrote all the glowing pro-EJF/Tropper tripe in the last four years who now attack Rabbi Dunner who has done the VERY smart thing of cutting his losses and walking away from EJF=Tropper=whoever-else-is-hooked up-with-it, and dumping them lock, stock and barrel.

    Yet the spurious and deceptive so-called "question-answer-argumentaion-propaganda-technique" the highly paid EJF honchos are using againt the 5 Towns paper is the old tried and true Tropper modus operandi, just spout that mantra "how dare you say anything when we have gedolei Yisroel behind us" as if one is supposed to check one's brains, and moral consience, at the proverbial door when the word "gedolei Yisroel" is uttered as if it was the Kohen Gadol saying the Shem Hameforash on Yom Kippur, which it is very far from being in the case of the shamed EJF so soon after the public exposure (good pun) of its founder and head honcho, Leib and Leba Tropper who were unmasked and caught in the act (good pun) of the most repugnant and immoral behavior for any human, let alone a supposed rabbi like Tropper.

    So as they say, nice try, but no cigar, the EJF is free to huff and puff, like the big bad wolf trying to blow down a solid house of bricks to get his prey in his jaws, this time against one of its own supposed batei din.

    This is just another EJF puff PR piece all over again, in the guise of self-righteous indignation trying to take the high moral ground when they are in reality down in the pits at the bottom of the hole, in the self-dug grave waiting for the tombstone where Tropper himself put them!

    This couldn't have been written by the new yeshivisha director Chaim Bloom, who probably cannot write English all that well.

  4. "EJF does not do geyrus. They are done by independent Botei Din who make their own decisions on the qualifications for geyrus"

    Independent Botei Din? he spends the first hald of the article boasting how the EJF has bought every beit din, including the CER. Then he does an about face, and claims that these Botei Din are independent?
    he admits that he has paid money to rabbis and tried to buy their way into europe. This confession itself invalidates the Halachic standing of any Dayan in Europe who has received money from the EJF.
    He also repeats the argument that all their activites are under the watchful eye of the Gedolei Yisroel? Oh really? Well, that's exactly what they were saying before the scandal came out. So all this means is that the EJF is as kosher now as it was under Tropper - and that is the same level of Kashrut as served in Macdonalds in Oxford Street.

  5. In the Brachah we say after reading from the Torah, we say "Asher natan Lanu (Torato) Torat Emet ". The Torah is our Truth. It is all about truth. Sheker, bribes, corruption are the opposite of what the Torah tells us. It doesn't matter how much money is poured in, you cannot make such immorailty suddenly kosher.

    R' Chaim of Volozhin, in his masterpiece Nefesh HaChaim, writes that even if you get all the masters of Kabbalah and Maaseh Merkavah, they cannot change one iota of Torah.
    Torah forbids bribes, and forbids the kind of immorailty which has occured under the EJF. It also forbids bringing this tainted money into the Beit Hamikdash. We should go back to basics. We don't need yated or other nonsense to learn Torah. Torah told us to get rid of Zimri, Balak, Bilaam and all the mob.

  6. Hmm they say in their ads and on their web-site that the Jewish spouses of their intermarried couples are FULLY observant Ba'al Teshuvas.

    In this article however, they're saying he's merely 'well on the way' to becoming a Ba'al Teshuva, meaning not quite yet a BT but getting there.

    Which is it? Why the contradiction?

  7. Also they keep labeling this a personal scandal of Tropper in order to avoid taking responsibility as an organization.

    If there are potential geyrim involved, then surely it goes to the heart of the EJF mission. Have they done an investigation to see if other geyrim candidates affiliated with their Botei Din were similarly compromised/manipulated? If not, why do they see no need to do this?

    If they are interested in the highest standards of geyrus and their leader has made this great kilkul, then surely it is not a personal scandal and there is a responsibility to see if any other candidates have been similarly exploited.

  8. Dragging Kaplan into their response says one thing most clearly: Money plays a really big role in all this.

    If there are people whpo are so convinced of the EJF ideals, might I suggest they form an entirely new organization with completely open books.

    Further, so that they might discredit their detractors immediately, EJF ought to open their books immediately and provide full disclosure of where and to whom the rather substantial funds have been disbursed. In addition, an accounting of how the funds were used to further the EJF program would shed much light.

  9. Rabbi Dunner , stay strong the truth will prevail! EJF are liars as has ben proven here over the past few years. Tropper even admitted to this blog owner that he is doing what everyone acuses him of, and now denies. Even RONI said so!!

  10. Eternal Jewish Cover UpJanuary 11, 2010 at 4:23 PM

    If there are "letters" from French rabbonim attacking Dayan Dunner, you can be sure that Team Tropper would have released them already. Or is there a delay so they can alter them with Photoshop to distort the originals?

    Who is Pinchas Shapiro by the way?

  11. Eternal Jewish Cover UpJanuary 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM

    The Tropper conspiracy theory about the British Foreign Office is the best one yet. It's even better than his crackpot conspiracy that Rav Eidensohn duped the Badatz into going against him.

    Incidentally, there are some British rabbonim who shtam from Germany, and I suspect that Dayan Ehrentreu is one of them, who have an usual citizenship status of "Stateless". They or their fathers refuse out of principal to carry a German passport and were wary of taking on even a British passport.

    This arrangement worked for decades but understandably became more difficult in the post 9/11 world. The world has become even more security conscious in the wake of al Qaeda's "Underwear Bomber". This is more likely the cause of Dayan Ehrentreu's hassle. Russia is also a police state that has refused entry in the past to rabbonim who are enemies of the Lubavitcher friends of Vladimir Putin. Don't forget that Tropper and EJF were behind an attack on Rav Kotlarsky, the worldwide head of Chabad shluchim, who a Tropper ally called the "Satan".

  12. Rav Sitruk was here about 25 years ago on a visit to the mosdos Hatorah, complaining that the intermarriage rate in France was 70%. It is probably higher yet today.

    If he is truly a wise man, he would see that EJF is part of the problem, not the solution.

    There are people who foolishly believe that to preserve the Jewish nation, you have to dilute it with unworthy interlopers. I certainly hope he is not among them.

  13. BT said...

    Hmm they say in their ads and on their web-site that the Jewish spouses of their intermarried couples are FULLY observant Ba'al Teshuvas.

    In this article however, they're saying he's merely 'well on the way' to becoming a Ba'al Teshuva, meaning not quite yet a BT but getting there.

    Which is it? Why the contradiction?
    Because in fact what they say is not what actually happens and sometimes what they say is 'well on the way" is not what you would say is well on the way.

  14. The point of EJF's (anonymous) press release regarding Rav Dunner should be taken in context.

    In Tropper's image, they go on the offensive whenever they feel a threat. They are letting everyone know that they will shmear even a talmid chochom if he criticizes them. That is also to let us know that they will go out of their way to destroy anyone who's just a regular person. So keep signing these blogs as anonymous. It's what they want, but nothing can be done about it at this point.

    It is interesting that nobody at EJF will take personal responsibility for shmearing a talmid chochom. As someone mentioned before, the whole Tropper/Barros way of doing things revolves around deniability. Welcome to the fold, Blum.

    I'm very disappointed in Blum. Same old same old...

    At least now they are forced to admit that Tropper did something wrong. We'll have to win this inch by inch.

  15. Eddie said...

    "In the Brachah we say after reading from the Torah, we say "Asher natan Lanu (Torato) Torat Emet ". The Torah is our Truth. It is all about truth. Sheker, bribes, corruption are the opposite of what the Torah tells us. "

    I once heard it said by a Kol Yaakov student that the restriction against shochad only applies to bais din.

    I guess they want to make sure to get the aveira right this time.

  16. A hearty Yasher Koach to 'Recipients and Publicity' for staying on top of Tropper. Hopefully one of these days the stake will find its mark and we'll never hear of him again.

  17. BT states: "Have they done an investigation to see if other geyrim candidates affiliated with their Botei Din were similarily compromised/manipulated?

    I converted through on of the BD on the EJF "approved list" and I hope this whole EJF mess does not reflect on those of us who converted but had nothing to do with EJF, Ihad never heard of them until this whole sorry mess came to light and I resent any implication that my conversion was obtained by questionable means and that is not valid. I hope all conversions performed by any BD that was viewed as acceptable by EJF is not now going to be looked at with suspicion. Remember, not all of us had anything to do with Trooper or his organization.


  18. once heard it said by a Kol Yaakov student that the restriction against shochad only applies to bais din

    This is part of Tropper’s torah, he said in one of the conferences that A Jewish male in intermarriage is on higher madrega than a non observant Jewish male married to a Jewish woman. Tropper reasoning on that issue is that the punishment of having sex with a shiksa is malkus but the punishment for having sex with a nidah is a kares.

  19. We need to get to the bottom of this. I think if the facts would be clear then an halachic decision can be made. If not it will just continue to be murky. We need to ask Rav Reuvain Feinstein these questions of fact and whether he supports these intermarried seminars and indeed the whole mission of the EJF in converting intermarrieds.

    1. Do they deal with Jewish spouses who are FULLY observant BTs or just those 'well on the way'?
    On their web-site and recent ads they said only FULLY observant, now their web-site has removed that part and their recent response to Rav Dunner said only 'well on the way'.
    2. Is this a back-track? If so why the initial untruth?
    3. How do participants get referred to EJF seminars, who approaches who?
    4. Are these couples still living with each other. Certainly a fully observant BT wouldn't be living with his gentile spouse.
    5. Do EJF consider that a 'well on the way' BT could still be someone who lives with their gentile spouse?
    6. Do these intermarried couples stay in the same bedroom at EJF seminars?

  20. Calmone,
    There was no implication intended. I am not chas veshalom saying there is any problem with any EJF affiliated bais din or conversion. All I am saying is how do we know that there aren't other candidates who were exploited sexually by Tropper. And surely EJF, if they were a genuine organization, has a responsibility to investigate.

  21. Tropper is a grubba am haaretz if Monsey is quoting him correctly.

    The Rambam writes that the Torah creates an issur niddah in a shiksa out of nowhere to punish the avaryan.

    The Geonim even learn that shiksa is worse than eishis ish.

    Chazal say it is equivalent of koffer baikkur.

    The Zohar mentions an unusually harsh punishment and the sifrei kaballah say an unbelievable type of tumah rests on him.

  22. Archie Bunker said...

    Tropper is a grubba am haaretz if Monsey is quoting him correctly.
    No he isn't.

    This is in fact a macholokes.

    Rav yaakov Kaminetsky said that a bean counting approach leads to the conclusion that is ascribed to Tropper but that Jewish identity trumps bean counting.

    Others says that the serious of an event can only be ascertained by bean counting and thus a Jewish nidah is signifcantly worse.

    I have heard serious talmidei chachomim on both sides of the issue

  23. What a sad state of affairs. Those who converted through "unapproved" botei din have their conversion suspected b/c of the dust kicked up by EJF and now those who converted through EJF approved botei din have their conversions suspected b/c of the krumkeit of the organization. Oy lanu. Looks like a ger tzedek can't win.

  24. Rav Eidensohn,

    Even with bean counting, shiksa still has issur niddah. Is anyone cholek on the Rambam?

    And which serious talmid chochom is cholek on R' Yaakov over what trumps what?

  25. Archie Bunker said...

    Rav Eidensohn,

    Even with bean counting, shiksa still has issur niddah. Is anyone cholek on the Rambam?

    DT: First of all the gemora says the nida was a rabbinic takana (Avoda Zara 36b)

    Tur (E.H 16):A non-Jewish woman - even though there is no Torah prohibition - is still prohibited by a rabbinic decree. Therefore someone who fornicates with her receives the rabbinic punishment of lashes. If he has a regular relationship with her other than in marriage than he is liable for the rabbinic prohibitions of nida, maidservant, non﷓Jew and prostitute.

    Rambam(Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:1): A Jew or Jewess who has sexual relations with a non﷓Jew in the context of marriage – is punished with lashes for violating the Torah prohibition. The Torah prohibition is Devarim (7:3), “Do not marry non-Jews. Your daughter should not be given in marriage to his son and his daughter should not be taken in marrriage for your son.” This prohibition does not differentiate between a non﷓Jew from the Seven Nations and other non﷓Jews. This prohibition is also expressed by Ezra (Nechmiah 10:31): “We will not give our daughters to the peoples of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons.”

    Shulchan Aruch(E.H. 16:1): A Jew who has sexual relations with a non-Jew in the context of marriage or a Jewish woman who has sexual relations with a non-Jew receive lashes according to Torah as it says in Devarim (7:3). Others disagree. However some who has sexual relations with a non-Jew not in the context of marriage and not in a fixed relationship receives lashes according to Rabbinic edict because of idolatry, and prostitution. If they have a fixed relationship than he is liable because of the Rabbinic edict of niddah, maidservant, idolatry and prostitution. If he is a cohen then even if they have a transient relationship then he gets lashes according to the Torah because of prostitution (Vayikra 21:7).

    Rambam(Commentary 9:6)[if a Jew has relations with a non-Jewish woman]...If he is not killed by zealots then he is liable to kares for his relations with the daughter of an idolater – even though this punishment is not mentioned in the Torah nor is it counted among the cases punished by kares but it is known only through tradition.
    And which serious talmid chochom is cholek on R' Yaakov over what trumps what?

    DT: There is at one in Har Nof I spoke with. If you really need to know I'll try looking it up. But it is poshut. Reb Yaakov is a chidush - and he clearly presented as such.

  26. Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky(Emes LeYaakov Parshas Yechi page 237): A practical example of zealousness which is not based on a correct reading of the halacha is found in the following question. A person has the choice of marrying a Jewish woman who doesn’t observe the laws of family purity or a non﷓Jewish woman. Which is preferable? A student who has not properly served an apprenticeship with an experienced posek will say that it is obvious that the person should chose to marry the non﷓Jewish woman. That is because sexual relations with a nidah is punished by kares while sexual relations with a non-Jew is only a violation of a negative commandment of the Torah which is not punished by kares. The truth is not this way. Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:7-8) states that even though sexual relations with a non-Jewish maidservant is only a rabbinic prohibition he rules that, “this sin even though it is not punished by capital punishment from the court should not be viewed lightly. That is because there is a loss associated with sexual relations with a non﷓Jew which you don’t find in the violation of all the other prohibited sexual relations. That loss is that the son from the other prohibited sexual relations is still his son in every respect and is considered a Jew. That is true even if the child is a mamzer. In contrast the son from a non﷓Jewish woman is not his son…. This sexual relationship with a non-Jewish woman will cause him to turn away from G-d and to attach himself to non-Jews. - from whom G-d has deliberately separated us so that we can be close to G-d... “ It is clear from this that the person should chose the relationship with the Jewish woman even though she doesn’t observe the laws of family purity.

  27. Is it typically not the Shulchan Aruch's business to mention kares or does the fact that it was omitted mean that the haalcha is not like the Rambam?

    Plus, what about the koffer ikkur which is befeirush in Chazal, before even considering the Zohar and sifrei kabbalah?

  28. Chava, you are 100% right-we gerim can't win. We are being used as pawns in a power struggle. This was my second Orthodox conversion (the first one 30 years ago was found to be problematic) and my last. I really hope this doesn't turn into a "witch hunt" (let's root out all those gerim whose BD we don't like) because we deserve better.


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