CJNews
MONTREAL — Mainstream Orthodox congregational rabbis in Montreal allege that the haredi-dominated Vaad Ha'ir is trying to undermine their authority in conducting conversions, dissuading prospective converts to Judaism from going to them and influencing the chief rabbinate of Israel that their conversions are not as halachically sound as those of the Vaad.[...]
MONTREAL — Mainstream Orthodox congregational rabbis in Montreal allege that the haredi-dominated Vaad Ha'ir is trying to undermine their authority in conducting conversions, dissuading prospective converts to Judaism from going to them and influencing the chief rabbinate of Israel that their conversions are not as halachically sound as those of the Vaad.[...]
"Rabbi Saul Emanuel" has long been in the pockets of Tropper=EJF and he has absolutely no credibility. He should keep quiet and declare his distance from Tropper=EJF instead of fighting other rabbis who while they may not be outwardly as "Charedi" as Tropper=EJF seemed on the outside, they, like the BADATS in Israel, the RCA in America and the London Bais Din, have all seen fit to denounce Tropper=EJF 100%.
ReplyDeleteWake up Rabbi Saul Emanuel, the game's up. Come out with your hands up and stop defending anything that has a trace of a connection with the disgraced Tropper=EJF or you will suffer the same fate unfortunately of losing whatever respect others may have for you.
As a Rabbi in a major city please allow me to share a few of my experiences with this same situation. Instead of having potential converts learn from local Rabbis and having these Rabbis (or others in the community) teach and mentor them, they were sent to an outside beis din, often in far away cities where they were not known. This was even done in cases where there was a very good beis din in the city the potential convert came from. Local Rabbis who questioned this were surprised to find that many of these potential converts were less than fully interested in keeping the Mitzvos. They (myself included) were even more surprised to find that when they started asking questions, threatening phone calls came from individuals associated with this organization, which focused mostly on bashing the few Modern Orthodox Rabbis who may have done less than ideal conversions (or worse). However, the fact that the use of "stronger" batei din was often designed to go around and ignore the local community or the fact that these converts were often not serious, and also that these included cases not at all related to marriage or even worse,to dating couples--these questions were never answered, just the same tired stories about the few Modern Orthodox Rabbis they could point to (correctly or otherwise) that did not have the strictest standards. This was a power play from the get go and any Rabbi who had the misfortune of dealing with this group found that out very quicky; integrity and higher standards were never really part of the picture. It sounds like this same story is now being played out in Montreal, at least now everyone should know what they are facing.
ReplyDeleteMost memorable line heard from Tropper=EJF ally R Saul Emanuel:
ReplyDelete“We are not taking any instruction from EJF. All we’ve done is attend its conferences.”
Meaning they don't take "instructions" (what does that mean in any case?) -- only monetary bribes (shochad by any other name), the very thing that a bais din should not be doing!
Next best line:
ReplyDelete"Rabbi Dovid Jacobs, ETF’s U.S. executive director, stated, “We do not seek to defame anyone.”"
Obviosuly R Dovid Jacobs, Tropper's handpicked hit man is obviously ignoring Tropper's-EJF's self-admitted and designated spokesperson on this very blog the notorios Tropper troll "Roni" who uttered every blasphemy and curse imaginable against any and all designated enemies of Tropper no holds barred.
Shame on R Jacobs, does he think that in the age of the Internet he can say such lies and get away with them? At least the rabbonim at Agudath Israel of America are tactically shrewder than him, they know that right now they lose if they say things like that when the ONLY right thing is for EJF to be condemned (in all senses of the word) to issue a blanket apology to the "universe" it tried to control with it's "universal conversions", and shut down forever.
anon Rabbi in a major city :
ReplyDeleteIf this is true, and from Rav Dunner's and also the 5Towns article, it has happened elsewhere, then it really is "mafia" tactics.
It is like the mafia protection rackets, where shopowners have to pay money to be protected form mafia thugs. Tropper thugs are blackmailing genuine Batei Din and Local Halachic authorities, to play along with their scam. If they ask questions ( asking questions is forbidden in troper's authoritarian state) then he sends the hit men and start making threatening phone calls, and attacking the rabbis - just as he succeeded in Israel with rav Druckman.
Now, i wonder which gedolim actually approved of the Tropper mafia, and their strongarm tactics?
What a tragedy- the once much praised, admired and respected Montreal Vaad Hair has been reduced to nothing more than another run of the mill, Brooklyn style mosad.
ReplyDeleteThat once great vaad used to serve the community with great distinction and served as an example of how an entire community, chassidish, litvish, MO, etc., ad infinitum, could be brought together (Montreal has only one hasgocho recognized by all, the MK). Now, that very same organization demands the community serve them in any way they see fit and deliberately marginalizes those who question their autocratic behavior.
Of course, that is all in the name of 'achdus.'
The article uses the phrase "controversy over ... tropper"
ReplyDeletetropper is no longer controversial, he is a now scandal laden.
The fragmentation of Orthodox Judaism due to tropper's self-serving dishonesty is what is steeped in controversy. This is only because, as the adage goes, "All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to remain silent."
Eddie, are you saying that Tropper was behind the R' Druckman mess too? Is that correct?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Rabbi, in what sense were the phone calls threatening? I didn't really understand from your post.
ReplyDeleteStrange how the three Canadian "chareidi" batei din for geirus mentioned in the linked article are run by, or heavily staffed with, Lubavitchers. Rabbis who, presumably, agree with their rebbe's teachings that he runs the world, is omniscient, omnipotent, impossible to hide from and worthy of our prayers (see this).
ReplyDeleteThis, in EJF's eyes, is what is meant by "universally accepted standards"
Next Guy:
ReplyDeleteI can't tell if you mean the Lubavitchers are for or against EJF, but that link you post is anti Chasidic. As if we need more antisemitism from Jews.
There are many kabbalah oriented types of chasidus, many of which believe their Rebbes are watching out for them and helping them. Don't attack them (I don't care about your justifications. Everyone has justifications for their bigotry and prejudice). Attack the so called Rabbis who are victimizing the powerless.
Tropper and his band hate Lubavitchers. Is that a reason for chasidim to hate all litvish?
Act properly, not Tropperly.
Tropper received most of his "referrals" from Chabad shluchim whom he has been paying stipends.
ReplyDeleteAlso many of Tropper's Batei Din have included Lubavitch Rabbis.
I can post names upon request.
"Anonymous" (who would support Chabad pantheism in the name of "achdus"):
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean that Saadya Gaon and the Rambam were wrong to oppose the Karaites? Were Rav Hirsch and the Chossom Sofer wrong to point out the crucial errors in Reform? Jewish for Judaism are, I suppose, similarly divisive in their struggles against messianic Jews?
You know: achdus is nice, but Judaism does stand for something. There are principles that may not be broken and teachings that may not be taught (unless the Rambam was mistaken on those too).
Next Guy:
ReplyDeleteNo, but Rabeynu Yonah was wrong for burning the Rambam's seforim because they included elements of "chachams chitzonus" (ala Slifkin).
The difference is that Rabeynu Yonah was a good person, apologized publicly took responisbility and wrote the classic Shaarei Tshuvah.
Our rabbinic leaders, deny, cover up, excuse, minimize, rationalize, externalize, lie, and what ever else is necessary to keep their dirty money and their "power".
As someone asked on UOJ, can anyone give me one good reason to stay frum?
Jersey girl is 100% correct when she states: "Tropper received most of his "referrals" from Chabad shluchim whom he has been paying stipends. Also many of Tropper's Batei Din have included Lubavitch Rabbis."
ReplyDeleteThe reason being that in this case the old rules of "politics makes for sosme odd bedfellows" (it's actually a good pun too in light of Tropper's umasked sexcapades), as well as an example of that cynical but true old principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" because Chabad opposes and competes with many of the same people that Tropper=EJF does, and even though Tropper and Chabad hate each other, nevertheless it's a "marriage of convenience" (like when Germany teamed up with the USSR to attack and divvy up Poland at the start of World War Two), and for these acts of betrayal, hypocrisy and cynicism EJF should follow the path of its leader toppled supreme leader=Tropper and resign from the world's stage.
One can't do much about Chabad, but they are held at arm's length by the rest of the Chasidish, Litvish and Modern Orthodox worlds. So Tropper was doing damage and being poretz geder by working with the very group that the Vilna Gaon put in perpetual cherem as much as he was being poretz geder to brazenly proselytize in the face of a 2000 year old prohibition in Yiddishket, based on Torah and Talmudic sources, not to go running looking for goyim.
RaP: The following "Anonymous" poster is obviously a pro-Chabad troll as will be evident from his own words.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...I can't tell if you mean the Lubavitchers are for or against EJF,"
RaP: Being obtuse to cover up the fact that in many out-of-town centers, EJF and Chabad meshichistim found each other and served each other's needs in a marriage of convenience made in hell. That is not in dispute.
"but that link you post is anti Chasidic."
RaP: No it's not. It's a VERY reliable website that deals ONLY with the problems surrounding Chabad Lubavitch and controversial Chabad messianism. It quotes directly from Rav Elazar Shach, Rav Aron Feldman, Rabbi Keller and Dr. David Berger and others in their famous published critiques of Chabad and nothing to do with other Chasidim. There is nothing on that site that mentions other Chasidim anywhere. Read it all for yourself at Identifying Chabad.
"As if we need more antisemitism from Jews"
RaP: This type of response is proof positive that this poster is defending Chabad in unthinking knee-jerk fashion, because ONLY Lubavitchers start to shout when they are questioned and criticized that it's "antisemitism" when nobody is attacking them as Jews or their Jewishness, only asking pointed questions and pointing out connections and issues with Chabad.
"There are many kabbalah oriented types of chasidus,"
RaP: ALL Chasidus is Kabbalah based, but they don't go to the extremes that Chabad does in trying to proselytize, under the guise of "kiruv" and "Noahide campaigns" that, like EJF=Tropper, goes against normative Yiddishkeit and has nothing to do with classical Kabbalah, Halachah and Hashkafa and is more like modern-day evangelicalism among Christians (who also started out as a false Jewish messianic movement.)
"many of which believe their Rebbes are watching out for them and helping them."
RaP: More self-righteous defenses from the Chabad troll who wants to have it both ways, that the 7th and last Lubavitcher Rebbe is greater than all Rebbes but at the same time he is just an ordinary Rebbe like all others, and also ignoring the obvious that in Chabad many believe the Rebbe is not just Moshiach, but among the "elokistim" the Lubavitcher Rebbe is God incarnate too, r"l.
"Don't attack them"
RaP: Criticism is not "attack", when you have a machlokes leshem shomayim it is not an "attack" -- the Lubavitchers are the ones who know how to attack others the best quite often.
[Anonymous Chabad defender says:] "(I don't care about your justifications. Everyone has justifications for their bigotry and prejudice)."
ReplyDeleteRaP: More outright intolerance. Typical. And now it's "bigotry and prejudice" to question the role of Chabad out-of-town in its cynical alliance with EJF=Tropper. Strange but the Krinsky faction is with Guma, but the avowed meshichistim, who oppose Rabbi Yehuda Krinsky leadership, are the ones hooked up with Tropper=EJF in Israel and America. It figures that two outcasts and extremists outlooks not in the framework of the Jewish Torah and its Mesorah are in a cynical alliance to "mekarev" goyim by the boatload. R Reuven Feinstein and R EB Wachtfogel should be very worried if not outright ashamed for being in cahoots with, and in the company of, such scandalous and outrageous groups.
"Attack the so called Rabbis who are victimizing the powerless."
RaP: Like who? So far the biggest attackers have always been Tropper=EJF, who even when they have been caught with their pants down (excellent pun), the Chabad meshichistim who have cynically aligned with EJF=Tropper are the ones who have the record of attacking and victimizing those who get in their way. A good example is just take a look at the way you are talking here yourself now.
"Tropper and his band hate Lubavitchers."
RaP: Tropper has no core beliefs typical of sociopaths. He has hired and works with multiple CYNICAL Lubavitchers. His own blind disciples only unthinkingly do what he orders them to do. That does not have anything to do with rest of the Chasidishe, Litvishe and Modern Orthodox worlds that keep away from Chabad as much as they can, without taking them on which just becomes pointless because the Lubavitchers just love to escalate things irationally and start screaming that they are "victims" of "antisemitism", "racism", and other delsusion.
"Is that a reason for chasidim to hate all litvish?"
RaP: Don't equate Lubavitch with all Chasidim. ONLY Lubavitch incites and continues its wars against the Litvishe velt that it loves to depict as the old-time "misnagdim" while most Chasidim, Charedim, and Orthodox Jews get along quite nicely.
"Act properly, not Tropperly."
RaP: Nonsensical. You are obviously trying to do DAMAGE CONTROL for Lubavitch by distancing them from Tropper=EJF. What does "properly" mean to you? To accept blindly the Chabad position on everything? To overlook the facts that Tropper=EJF cynically works hand-in-hand with many out-of-town Chabad meshchistim especially? That noone is fighting the world, it is Tropper=EJF and the meshischistim that have with brazen chutzpah broken the barriers in Yiddishkeit against proselytization making them seem no less than goyisha missionaries and that they are therefore rejected by all other Charedi, Chasidish and Orthodox groups? Get real and wake up!
funny!!! when i went to yeshiva there was a orthodox shul with a rca rabbi the shul had a 1000 members the rabbi used a microphone on shabbos and his son told me his father went to mixed beaches all the time so i dont get it since when is the rca a dayo zoger? am i missing something
ReplyDeletealso about the so called vaad hacovod who looked into rabbi tendlers alleged miss deads one of the members at a family simchah of mine came over to shmooze with my wife no less than 10 times over shabbos making my wife very uncomfortable this guy was not from our side at all my wife was 22 at the time this was a few years ago
http://jhvonline.com/print_this_story.asp?smenu=96&sdetail=8193
ReplyDeleteOrand said that she is not the only victim, and that she is aware of another woman who soon will be stepping forward. Orand noted that she, herself, came forward to protect future potential victims, and because requests were being made of her to put words into actions.
Hocker = orthodoxjew
ReplyDeleteYou probably know like everyone else that the RCA has problematic rabbis who were stopped from doing gerus by the RCA itself. Are you just playing dumb so you can display that super kanoyus vos du meinst iz upgelernt fun R' Elya Ber?
they are saying what I said,a nd we are not connected
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vosizneias.com/46884/2010/01/13/new-york-editorial-by-the-jewish-star-on-the-tropper-scandal-why-is-he-getting-a-free-pass
to men in white coats and hood a org that can have such rabbis and some are there leaders, who are oiver more issurei aroyos in one day than tropper probly did in his life time should not be considered credible in any shape or form pihrat when we are talking about geirus. the rabbi who goes to the beach was a chairman at one of there conventions
ReplyDelete