Thursday, January 28, 2010

Chilul HaShem: Why is tropper still rosh yeshiva?


The tropper/EJF scandal has entered a new phase.

1) Originally when the tapes were released and tropper immediately resigned there were two views - 1) the tapes are forgeries vs 2) he is a disgusting menvual and walking chilul hashem.

2) As time passed and tropper remained silent and more people realized the tapes were genuine we now have the following three groups 1) the tapes are forgeries became a minority and 2)most said that they were not sure if  the tapes are forgeries and but we must give him the benefit of doubt and even if he sinned , Berachos says we must presumed that a talmid chachom who sinned at night has done teshuva next day vs 3) he is guilty and a walking chilul hashem and the continued silence of the rabbis is embarrassing and sowing confusion regarding moral leadership and emunas chachomim..

We are now in state three and there are two different approaches being taken

1) Tropper did sin, tapes are genuine and he was a menuval but he has definitely done teshuva and those who want him removed as rosh yeshiva and constantly talk about him lack the elementary Jewish quality of rachmonus and they are baalei loshon harah and they are causing the chillul hashem by talking about it  Furthermore he only violated rabbinic prohibitions and thus that is not considered to be a genuine chillul hashem. thus case is closed and we must get on with life and act as if nothing happened.

vs 2) Tropper sinned - not out of a moment of overwhelming lust which is what the gemora in Berachos was describing.  He was seriously and persistently a menuval and thus there is no presumption of teshuva. There is in fact no evidence that he has done teshuva except for a brief statement released to the press that he apologizes for the appearance of violating the laws of modesty! He sinned against a particular woman and there is no mention that he has asked for mechila and that she has granted it. This is a an embarrassing defense and it is not teshuva.  But even if we say he did teshuva  that doesn't allow him to a rosh yeshiva and being called a rabbi. This is for two reasons 1) The gemora says a rosh yeshiva and rabbi need to be a person who is pure and is perceived as pure. He needs to be perceived as the embodiment of Torah itself. It is embarrassing that he is being defended that he only violated a rabbinic decree of nida and  is kares medivrei kabbalah. The gemora says "All who transgress the words of our sages are deserving death at the hand of Heaven." That is an insignificant chillul haShem?! Furthermore it is not certain that he only violated rabbinic laws. 2) The chillul haShem is in the perception of the public both Jews and non-Jews who know that tropper has sinned in a disgusting way and thus he is a chillul hashem every time he is identified as a rosh yeshiva and rabbi. This is not an issue of rachmonus. Is every time that the punishments prescribed by the Torah and Rabbinic decree are carried out it a lack of rachomonus?! Chas vesholom! It is the greatest rachmonus to allow punishments which bring about atonement.

It is time for Tropper to retire and save G-d and the Jewish people the continued embarrassment and degradation. It is time to stop the torment of his students - present and past. Has the man no shame? It is time for rabbis and organization to publicly criticize him - and it is time for EJF  the monster with two heads that he created which is interfering with the issue of geirus and causing distress to converts on an international level - be disbanded. It is necessary for the rabbis to restore confidence in their moral leadership and the public's emunas chachomim. It is an fundamental obligation that the leaders make the effort to explain and convince the public of  their course of action. This is not just the aberration of a single individual but rather the healing of the entire Jewish people.

51 comments :

  1. A FEW points:
    1) "he only violated rabbinic prohibitions and thus that is not considered to be a genuine chillul Hashem" Was this statement made by Karaites?

    2)Since when has a) taking/giving shochad been d'rabbanan? b) Is the issur of prostitution/ znut/kdeasha and procuring (a legal term for p-mping) d'rabbanan? Or is it becasue it only applies to a ger candidate? c)There is a very severe issur of "megaleh panim b'Torah she lo k'halacha". That is also somethign which applies, eg bartering conversions for znut.

    IN addition, has anyone yet suggested that somebody who belives the earth goes round the sun cannot be a Dayn ona conversion bet din (or any other bet din?) This modern view contradicts the Halacha of Rambam.
    Also, anyone who belives there are more than 4 elements (as per Rambam) denies halacha and Zohar - and I am a Chemist, i know there are over 100 elements!

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  2. Observer from AfarJanuary 28, 2010 at 1:00 PM

    Very good post. I would just like to attempt to add to it by pointing out that Tropper continues to claim that the tapes are fakes -- to his students, such as Y, and to others -- and to raise the spectre of Guma's involvement in procuring doctored tapes and paying off Ms. Orand. As tshuva requires recognition of what one has done wrong, Tropper's continued denials negate any possible tshuva. Unless I am missing something, it is inconsistent for Tropper to continue to suggest that the tapes are forgeries and for R. Reuven Feinstein to claim that Tropper has done tshuva. Second, while the blog speaks of the required mechilla for what Tropper did to Ms. Orand, i.e., in the past, Tropper is required to apologize for his continued related attacks on Ms. Orand and Guma.

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  3. Rav, how are you so sure he is guilty? You seem pretty convinced. Why isnt everyone else as convinced as you? Even talmidei chachomim?

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  4. Hey 'guy,'

    The question is not whether or not we are 'sure' he is guilty. You only have to be 100% sure when the punishment you are contemplating is very chamur.

    Here we are not contemplating any chamur punishment at all. Not even nidui.

    We are just saying that since the accusations against him seem so likely to be true, then we should be taking steps to keep his hands off more potential victims and their money. Anybody who was shakua in this activity is going to spin off more problems in the future, and we have a responsibility to the tzibbur.

    Why do the accusations seem true? because of all the reasons given here about the apparent authenticity of the tapes, together with the fact that the accused has not even formally denied doing these things--over and over again over a period of time!--and certainly has never contested the evidence.

    So as protectors of the tzibbur, and especially the weakest and most vulnerable of them whom he continues to influence, we say we should keep his hands off more potential victims and out of the public's cash drawer.

    This is just a move to protect the community, not to 'punish' the perpetrator.

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  5. Well said.

    Teshuva does not imply the lack of consequences for the bad behavior, nor does it mean we must forgive him. If Tropper's teshuva is sincere, he and we can take comfort in the fact that the RSO will indeed return him to the state of k'eloo lo chatah'. That is in the purview of the RSO- not us.

    Tropper's suitability as a Rosh Yeshiva has been permanently compromised. He is in the same position as other abusers. Proximity to even potential victims is unacceptable. In Tropper's case, proximity to those who are BT's or potential geirim or anyone else who might be led down a stray path to serve his needs or agenda cannot be allowed.

    He certainly cannot be placed in a position where he might be called on to serve as a confidential authority on personal or ethical matters, something a Rosh Yeshiva has to do daily.

    We are only meant to forgive those who transgress against us, personally. The person who takes your parking spot, your boss or the neighbor who drives us crazy are examples of those who we must learn to be mochel. That is a very big job.

    On the other hand, we are not meant to mochel those who transgress against the RSO anymore than we can be mochel those who cause a tremendous chilul hashem. We are meant to maintain the elevated status of the community over the yachid , not the status of the yachid over the comunity. That is in the RSO's purview, not ours.

    There has to be consequences to bad actions.

    Can a yachid redeem himself? Of course he can and even climb to great heights over time- a very long time, with appropriate behavior and remorse.

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  6. The question isn't "Why is he still a rosh yeshiva?"

    The question is: "What's taken him so long to retake the leadership of EJF and put all those who outed him in cherem?"

    ReplyDelete
  7. Excellent post. Thank you.

    Having made a mockery of giyur, Tropper is now making a mockery of tshuvah.

    Tropper is a sick man who will not contain himself unless forced to by others. Fault for the ongoing saga of TropperGate lies with his enablers. This scandal will not be resolved until we get an accounting of the role of Tropper's money in influencing people who should not have taken his money.

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  8. I have been informed that the EJF sent a message to affiliated Batei Din that an investigation is taking place. It is incumbent on any Beis Din that has any concern for the integrity of Batei Din to demand that any such investigation be supervised by recognized rabbonim who are not affiliated with EJF nor have taken money from R. Tropper.
    Yosef Blau

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  9. Rabbi Shafran yesterday pertinently and correctly addresses this issue. I know most of the blood-thirsty crowd that often comments here will not like it (since it doesn't provide a pound of Tropper's flesh), but so be it.

    http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2010/01/27/a-personal-note-to-cross-currents-readers/

    "But until a court of law or beis din renders a judgment of an accused individual, no matter how heinous the crime and no matter the seeming preponderance of evidence, he or she may not be referred to as guilty. My use of the qualifier “alleged” was not meant to imply a defense of the accused, only to hew to the journalistically normative (and, I believe, halachically mandated) practice."

    "I cannot speak for any Godol with regard to something I have not discussed with him. But Gedolim, too, are bound by the halacha that prohibits judgment of guilt without a trial."

    "When it comes to religious issues that are not subject to beis din adjudication but which they consider important (even if they are issues that some people might not consider so), Gedolim have not only a right but a responsibility to speak out. Warning the community about kashrus concerns may seem a less important mandate than condemning individuals for grave moral or ethical offenses. But kashrus concerns are part of a Jewish religious leader’s mandate, and condemning people is only arguably so (personally, I don’t think it is, unless they judge that there is a danger of the offense being regarded by the community as insignificant). And in a case where no guilt has been established by a court, condemnation of the accused is not even an option."

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  10. Is there anyway we can protest? Should I call or send a letter to one of the rabbonim in my community whose name is on the EJF list?

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  11. How did we go to step 3? Most people I know think the tapes may not be true. There has not been any legit. company with credibilty to authenticate the tapes as of yet. We know that R' eidenson decided that they are authentic. and we know that he has a lot of crediblity and objectivity regarding the issue. as specialy since he never had any ill feeling against tropper beforhand, but non the less, just cus we know that R' eidenshon has the authority to decide that tropper sinned, no one else seems to think so. where I live people dont think too highly of R' eidenson. sorry.

    BTW here is the WHOLE letter from David Gold of Lakewood NJ. (Luke ford has his name posted)

    http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=16286

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  12. Horizons Bais Achiezer Inc. EIN 134077539 is the corporation behind Kol Yaakov and EJF, Tropper is the owner and Dovid Jacobs is the executive director.

    Does rabbi Eidensohn or anyone has information if Tropper relinquished his ownership in the organization?. In order to do so he has to file Transfer Of Ownership form with the state. Did he do so ?

    If not , it is all cosmetics, Tropper just sits in the back room and writes checks and has rabbis eating from his hand.

    Nothing changed and olam keminhago noeg

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  13. The bottom line is is htat someone in this position should not be the head of anything. Step down, find another job and let the healing begin. By remaining in a position of power, R. Tropper is showing that he either cares about power too much, cares about the community too little, or does not care at all about the chillul Hashem he is proliferating.

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  14. ut until a court of law or beis din renders a judgment of an accused individual, no matter how heinous the crime and no matter the seeming preponderance of evidence, he or she may not be referred to as guilty. My use of the qualifier “alleged” was not meant to imply a defense of the accused, only to hew to the journalistically normative (and, I believe, halachically mandated) practice
    ------------------
    Unforunately this statement displays an ignorance of gemoras such as Moed Koton, 17, Megila 25, Kiddushin 81. Nida 61 as well as the halachic literature.

    There are several stages. Can we take protective action against him without a formal beis din? The answer is yes. As a minimum he should be removed from any position of rabbinic responsibility until a beis din renders a ruling.

    Can he be punished because of the rumors without a beis din? Yes as the above gemoros state.

    Can we rely on circumstantial evidence to say someone is guilty even with out a beis din? yes.
    Rav Sternbuch in fact requested that I publicize the fact that he holds tropper is guilty.

    Thus his defense of tropper is incredibly embarrassing.

    It is similar to the one made by R Menashe Klein that unless we have two kosher witnesses we can't deal with cases of child abuse - contrary to what a wide range of poskim hold.


    Someone about whom there is public percept of gross misbehavior is punished or at least removed from his position of teacher. Any teacher who had this type of evidence - even without a formal beis din would be as a minimum expected to suspend himself from teaching.

    Rav Sternbuch rejected these arguments and said to call him a menuval. Rav Dunner similarly responded.

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  15. Re. Tropper's comment, if you need a beis din or court of law to declare someone guilty, then I guess John Wilkes Booth or Oswald are not guilty! Or Hitler isn't guilty either, or Hamas.

    If someone gets up in front of a thousand people and shoots someone, I should only refer to him as the alleged killer? That is only for a court of law, as the fool Shafran should know.

    But let's give Shafran his due. I formally request that the Agudah appoint a beit din to judge this case.

    And of course, it would have been nice if there had been a beit din to judge R. Slifkin or R. Kamenetsky or R. Druckman. But in those cases, there didn't seem to be such a need before condemnation.

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  16. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 28, 2010 at 6:48 PM

    Shafran's rabbinic-babble would be a great example of Wikilawyering:

    To Dave and Avi Shafarn when Shafran goes on like that, defending Aguda's silence and then nitpicking in the face of the Tropper scandal firestorm and by implication clearly defending one of their own Tropper and his rabbinic enablers, they are guilty of something that known on Wikipedia about its rules as "LAWYERING": Wikilawyering (and the related legal term pettifogging) is a pejorative term which describes various questionable ways of judging other Wikipedians' actions. It may refer to certain quasi-legal practices, including:

    Using formal legal terms in an inappropriate way when discussing Wikipedia policy;

    Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit or underlying principles;

    Asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines should override the underlying principles they express;

    Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions.

    In other words a "wikilawyer" is an image drawn from a poor lawyer, and the term may also be used in other cases, e.g., when a person superficially judges other editors and their actions by jumping at conclusions and slapping labels while brandishing Wikipedia policies as a tool for defeating other Wikipedians rather than resolving a conflict or finding a mutually agreeable solution."

    Just apply it here and it explains how silly Shafran comes across when he defends the indefensible.

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  17. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 28, 2010 at 6:52 PM

    "Rav Sternbuch rejected these arguments and said to call him a menuval. Rav Dunner similarly responded."

    And please don't forget Rabbi Rothkopf who told YU students openly in a question and answer session, as posted on this blog, when asked about how to react to the Tropper sex scandal, that Tropper was a "menuval shebemenuvalim" ([the most] degenerate among [the] degenerates).

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  18. "Warning the community about kashrus concerns may seem a less important mandate than condemning individuals for grave moral or ethical offenses. But kashrus concerns are part of a Jewish religious leader’s mandate, and condemning people is only arguably so (personally, I don’t think it is, unless they judge that there is a danger of the offense being regarded by the community as insignificant)."

    I guess that many rabbinic leaders have decided not to make a public statement about the Tropper case because the public doesn't need to be told that what he is alleged to have done is reprehensible. I understand and appreciate this argument. But, if the modus operandi is that rabbis speak out publicly against halachically and/or morally objectionable actions if and ONLY if that offense is generally seen as not being objectionable by the public, this would almost necessarily lead to the cultivation of perception among the common folk that rabbis don't really care about actions that are universally acknowledged as being evil.

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  19. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 28, 2010 at 7:38 PM

    "Is there anyway we can protest? Should I call or send a letter to one of the rabbonim in my community whose name is on the EJF list?"

    Start with these:

    *Agudath Israel of America

    Rabbi Yakov Perlow,
    Rosh Agudas Yisroel

    Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, Executive Vice-President.

    42 Broadway
    Suite 1400
    New York, NY 10004

    Tel: (212) 797-9000
    Fax: (646)254-1600; (212) 254-1600
    EIN: 13-5604164
    torahprojects@agudathisrael.org

    *Agudath Israel of America- Washington Office

    Abba Cohen,
    Director
    acohen@agudathisrael-dc.org

    1730 Rhode Island Avenue, NW
    Suite 504
    Washington, DC 20036

    Phone: (202) 835-0414
    Fax:(202) 835-0424

    *Agudath Israel of America Midwest Region

    6352 N Lincoln Ave, Chicago, IL 60659

    Contact: David Lifsics.

    Phone: (773) 866-1655
    Fax:(773) 866-1845

    *Agudath Israel Of California - West Coast Regional Headquarters

    Dr. Irving Lebovics,
    Chairman, Presidium

    Rabbi JJ Rabinowich,
    Director

    8631 W 3rd St Ste 1010e
    Los Angeles, CA 90048-5913

    Phone: (310) 659-6177; (323) 939-2824

    *Agudath Israel of South Florida

    777 W 41st St
    Miami Beach, Florida 33140

    Phone: (305) 532-2500‎

    ReplyDelete
  20. what's the difference between a Gadol, and a Godol? And should there be a - when the "o" is used?

    Some people do not pronounce the "heh" in the hebrew term for false gods, ie they say Elokim acherim instead. So should they also write G-dol?

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  21. Regarding accusations of whether or not he did teshuva, no one but him and Hashem knows if he did teshuva. If he needed to ask mechila from Oranda he may have done so, for all anyone knows.

    No one was a bigger menuval than Elazar ben Durdaya but not only did his teshuva earn him olam haba but they even called him Rabbi.

    This is not to say you should send someone to a Tropper-led institution or have your wife consult with him.

    However, regarding the issue of teshuva no one here knows the truth or should speak about it as thought they do.

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  22. However, regarding the issue of teshuva no one here knows the truth or should speak about it as thought they do.
    ==================
    He lost his chazaka and thus I don't have to act based on the possiblity that he has done teshuva.

    The gemora in Berachos talks about a talmid chachom who is known to have suffered a one time loss of control at night and Chazal tell us that we can presume that that he recovers the next day. We know in this case he didn't recover the next day and thus he has lost his chezaka and gained a new one.

    In this case we are not talking about a momentary abberation but rather a systematic pattern over time that clearly eliminates any presumption on our part to defend him. Without that chazaka the burden of proof is on him to convince us that he has changed.

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  23. "He lost his chazaka and thus I don't have to act based on the possiblity that he has done teshuva."


    It sounds like it is personal for you. Which is acceptable in a sense because it makes you more human. But all this does, indeed, seem like a personal vendetta.

    ______________

    "We know in this case he didn't recover the next day and thus he has lost his chezaka and gained a new one."


    How do we know this? How do you know this? How do you know that he did not do teshuva the next day? Have you found other recordings with him and Orand or any other woman?

    Do you expect him to knock on your door, crawl on his knees and say, "Rabbi Eidsensohn, please I beg of you be mochel me"?

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  24. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 28, 2010 at 9:17 PM

    "Is there anyway we can protest? Should I call or send a letter to one of the rabbonim in my community whose name is on the EJF list?"

    Here are the names and addresses of the main rabbis who sit on the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Agudath Israel of America responsible for the cover-up, silence and Chillul Hashem of the Leib and Leba sex scandal that they refuse to face and denounce.

    Call upon them to "Shut down Tropper/EJF/Horizons/Kol Yaakov PERMANENTLY"

    *R. Aron Shechter.
    Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin
    1544 Coney Island Ave,
    Brooklyn, NY 11230-4716

    Phone: (718) 377-0777

    *R. Yakov Perlow.
    Yeshivas Novominsk
    1690 60th Street,
    Brooklyn, NY 11204

    Tel: (718) 438-2727

    *R. Dovid Feinstein.
    Mesivta Tifereth Jerusalem
    145 E. Broadway,
    New York, NY 10002-0100

    Phone: 212-964-2830

    Alternate address:
    c/o R. Reuven Feinstein.
    Yeshiva of Staten Island
    1870 Drumgoole Road East,
    Staten Island, NY 10309-0103

    Tel: (718) 356-4323

    *R. Aron Feldman.
    Ner Israel Rabbinical College
    400 Mount Wilson Lane,
    Baltimore, MD 21208-1198

    Tel: (410) 484-7200

    *R. Shmuel Kaminetsky.
    Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia,
    6063 Drexel Rd.,
    Philadelphia, PA 19131,

    Tel: (215) 473-1212; 215-477-1000

    *R. Malkiel Kotler.
    Beth Medrash Govoha - Lakewood
    617 6th St,
    Lakewood, NJ 08701-2754

    Tel: (732) 367-1060

    *R. Yosef Harari-Raful.
    Yeshiva Ateret Torah
    901 Quentin Road,
    Brooklyn, NY 11223-0112

    Tel: (718) 375-7100

    *R. Avrohom Chaim Levin.
    Telshe Yeshiva- Chicago
    3535 W. Foster Ave,
    Chicago, IL 60625

    Phone: (773) 463-7738
    Fax: (773) 463-2849

    ReplyDelete
  25. "He lost his chazaka and thus I don't have to act based on the possiblity that he has done teshuva."


    It sounds like it is personal for you. Which is acceptable in a sense because it makes you more human. But all this does, indeed, seem like a personal vendetta.
    =============
    I think your mind reading apparatus is malfunctioning. I am present you with a halachic explanation. You respond with an ad hominem attack.

    This unforunately is typical

    ======================
    "How do we know this? How do you know this? How do you know that he did not do teshuva the next day? Have you found other recordings with him and Orand or any other woman?"

    Do you expect him to knock on your door, crawl on his knees and say, "Rabbi Eidsensohn, please I beg of you be mochel me"?

    The recordings were not all made on the same day.

    No I don't expect or desire for him to knock on my door. But he should be doing the above for the Jewish people. Someone who created a chillul hashem can not secretly do teshuva and expect everyone to just know that he has repented.

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  26. "The recordings were not all made on the same day."

    Fine, but as of the last recording, how do you know that he did not do teshuva? Orand has given no indication that anything has happened since. And no other recordings have surfaced. So why assume he did not do teshuva -- especially after this whole thing became public?

    ____________

    "No I don't expect or desire for him to knock on my door. But he should be doing the above for the Jewish people. Someone who created a chillul hashem can not secretly do teshuva and expect everyone to just know that he has repented."

    Show me the source that someone who created a chillul Hashem has to publicly declare "chatasi avisi pashati".

    Agreed that there are numerous sources recommending that someone who did a public chillul Hashem should do some kind of public kiddush Hashem. But where do you find a source that a person has to do a public tshuva?

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  27. to Recipients and Publicity:

    tropper has relationships with people on that list. I remember at least one KY BT learning in Chaim Berlin, we know about his relationship to Reuven Feinstein, didn't R' Shmuel's name come up somewhere?

    Just like the results of EJF doing its own "investigation", I don't think you'll get much satisfaction writing to those on this list.

    ReplyDelete
  28. So why assume he did not do teshuva -- especially after this whole thing became public?
    ===================
    Again he has lost his chezaka. Only someone with the chezaka of being a talmid chochom is assumed to have done teshuva.
    ===========
    Show me the source that someone who created a chillul Hashem has to publicly declare "chatasi avisi pashati".

    Agreed that there are numerous sources recommending that someone who did a public chillul Hashem should do some kind of public kiddush Hashem. But where do you find a source that a person has to do a public tshuva?
    =========
    I didn't say he was obligated but am saying that he should i.e., it is desirable. Chillul hashem can be atone for by kiddush hashem.
    Remaining silent is not good for him and not good for the Jewish people.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I think what R' Eidensohn is saying that since the recordings were made on different days, then it was not a one time sin. Since there are 3 or more recordings on different days, then he has a chazakah as a menuval.

    I don't think R' Eidensohn is saying it, but as far as public apology is concerned, he was mazik the kohol. Conversions and rescinding of conversions were done based on his lusts instead of halacha. He needs to apologize to everyone and then find a way to fix what he broke.

    He smeared people which means publicly, so he needs to apologize and ask mechila publicly. So yes, he should have been beating his breast publicly.

    If he does it as a settlement with bais din, it's meaningless.

    If he was a sheliach to distribute tzedakah to certain individuals and diverted the funds, then he is either a gonnif or a gazlon depending on the circumstances and needs to make restitution.

    It's not as simple as saying "gosh I'm sorry, let's move on." So it's certainly not as simple as assuming he said those words to Hashem.

    So even if he does everything he needs to do, he has a chazakah as a menuval and we aren't allowed to leave him in a position where he can do anything like this again. On the contrary, leaving him in a position of power if he apologizes only serves to casting doubt on whether he really did t'shuvah.

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  30. Do you expect him to knock on your door, crawl on his knees and say, "Rabbi Eidsensohn, please I beg of you be mochel me"?

    He can do like Tzadik Gamur rav Yosef Blau did (Incidentally an RCA rabbi which menmuval Tropper hates so much).

    When Rav Blau realized that he made a mistake regarding Baruch Lanner , he stood on the Bima in YU beis Midrash and said 'chasasi'.

    He since dedicated his life hunting down sexual predators in the orthodox community and was instrumental in removing another menuval (though not as bad as Tropper) Mordechai tendler.

    Menuval Tropper can learn few things from some RCA rabbis

    ReplyDelete
  31. I am willing to help Tropper, he can start from this, This is from someone who sin in parivate bt repented in public, Tropper should follow this person footsteps


    Everything that I will attempt to say to you this morning will be from my heart. I will not speak from a prepared script. Knowing the consequences of what I will say and that much of it will be taken around the world, as it should be, I am positive that all that I want to say I will not be able to articulate as I would desire. But I would pray that you will somehow feel the anguish, the pain, and the love of my heart. I have always -- every single time that I have stood before a congregation and my talmidim -- I have met and faced the issues head-on. I have never sidestepped or skirted unpleasantries. I have tried to be like a man and to teach torah exactly as I have seen it without fear or reservation or compromise. I can do no less this morning.

    I do not plan in any way to whitewash my sin. I do not call it a mistake, a mendacity; I call it sin. I would much rather, if possible -- and in my estimation it would not be possible -- to make it worse than less than it actually is. I have no one but myself to blame. I do not lay the fault or the blame of the charge at anyone else's feet. For no one is to blame but Leib Tropper. I take the responsibility. I take the blame. I take the fault.

    ....

    God said to David 3,000 years ago, you have done this thing in secret, but I will do what I do openly before all of Israel. My sin was done in secret, and God has said to me, "I will do what I do before the whole world." Blessed be the name of the Lord


    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jswaggartapologysermon.html

    ReplyDelete
  32. "Only someone with the chezaka of being a talmid chochom is assumed to have done teshuva."

    Call him what you want: a menuval, a baal taavah, etc. But you are fooling yourself if you don't think he's a talmid chochom. In fact, the potential for chillul Hashem is directly in proportion to the great amount of Torah he knows. He may have been able to fool Gedolim in terms of his private, personal behavior, but he would not have been consulting them and heading EJF if he was not an accomplished talmid chochom.

    ______

    "I didn't say he was obligated [to do tshuva] but am saying that he should i.e., it is desirable."

    Again, who says he has not? He definitely is a talmid chochom, maybe a troubled one, but a talmid chochom nonetheless. What you want is a public tshuva, a public self-degradation. You admit he is not obligated to do that. I believe it is a shaila if he is even permitted to enumerate his sins in public. This is not Catholicism. We do not believe in going into a confessional and uttering some Hail Mary's.

    ReplyDelete
  33. "Only someone with the chezaka of being a talmid chochom is assumed to have done teshuva."

    Call him what you want: a menuval, a baal taavah, etc. But you are fooling yourself if you don't think he's a talmid chochom. In fact, the potential for chillul Hashem is directly in proportion to the great amount of Torah he knows. He may have been able to fool Gedolim in terms of his private, personal behavior, but he would not have been consulting them and heading EJF if he was not an accomplished talmid chochom.
    =============
    you simply don't understand what I am talking about. the germora in berachos is not talking about a person who knows shas. it is talking bout a talmid chachom i.e., he has certain midos and deveikus to G-d.

    Elisha ben Abuya and korah were greater scholars than tropper - but they were not presumed to do teshuva

    there is no such thing as a menuval talmid chachom. there is no such thing as a rasha talmid chachom. the terms refer to a level of spiritual perfection through Torah.

    Once a person sins regularly he does not have the halachic status of a talmid chachom!

    ReplyDelete
  34. I have a question regarding Rav Eidensohns view on tropperkeit, and the motivation and breadth of his menuvalism:

    Since he has been a menuval for some time, would you include the kind of things that Rav Rakkefet atatcked him for as well as part of his depravity? eg
    a) stirring up a hateful campaign against Slifkin and being instrumental in the herem on his books?
    b) attacking all Batei Din around the world that didn't dance his tune or accept his bribes, be they Haredi, RCA, or modern Dati Leumi?
    c) annulling geirus based on issues such as women wearing pants; a Dayan on the beth din having scientific knowledge of modern physics?
    d) Attacking Torah scholars who are 1000x greater than him, who offer factual halacha which he doesn't like.

    A final vort on Maaseh Breishit:
    The 6 days of Creation is told miTzido - from hashem's point of view, not ours.
    His Shabbat was not like our shabbat. His creation and malacah i snot liek ours. His Time is not like ours, hence 1 day of his is like 100 years of ours ,as per Tehillim. Is that 1000 years of hours a halachic measure or symbolic?
    If we were to imagine His "clock" - which is only by way of moshul, then it is not the same as ours. From our scientific point of view, it apepars to be billions of years old universe, but that is not a problem, chas ve khalila, Because his ways are nto our ways. Hence, all this senseless war about the age of the universe is really a red herring and of no consequence.

    ReplyDelete
  35. "Elisha ben Abuya and korah were greater scholars than tropper - but they were not presumed to do teshuva"

    Bad examples. Both persisted publicly in their rishus until their deaths. You have no evidence that he is persisting in his behavior.

    _____________


    "there is no such thing as a menuval talmid chachom. there is no such thing as a rasha talmid chachom. the terms refer to a level of spiritual perfection through Torah.

    Once a person sins regularly he does not have the halachic status of a talmid chachom!"

    Doeg was not only a talmid chochom but a gadol hador.

    Achitophel too was talmid chochom.

    Reish Lakish was a ganav and immersed in the worst lifestyle, but did teshuva.

    R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon had a son who was a regular with zonahs but Rebbi sent R Shimon ben Isi to teach him and gave him the title of Rabbi (BM 85a)

    David, on his madrega was nikshal with Batsheva, but did tshuva and was never not thought of as a talmid chochom.

    And there are many more examples.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "there is no such thing as a menuval talmid chachom. there is no such thing as a rasha talmid chachom. the terms refer to a level of spiritual perfection through Torah.

    Once a person sins regularly he does not have the halachic status of a talmid chachom!"

    Doeg was not only a talmid chochom but a gadol hador.

    Achitophel too was talmid chochom.
    =================
    Again you are missing the point. They would not have been presumed to have done teshuva

    We are talking about two different things. tropper is not presumed to have done teshuva.

    ReplyDelete
  37. "though not as bad as Tropper)"

    Monsey Tzaddik --

    Isn't adultery with several married women worse than Tropper?

    It is a death penalty sin. Multiple times over.

    ReplyDelete
  38. This is beginning to sound scary. this sounds like a lynch mob in the wild west, totally out of control, with many(not all) people shooting from the hip based on emotions.

    Who is next?

    Sure, write letters to the Rabbonim so we can control them and what they say. Right! Should a true Gadol decide something based on mass letter campain.

    If you want to do something then be mazmin him to a din torah, and bring some evidence and testimony

    Just my 2 cents

    ReplyDelete
  39. It shows you how there's no achdus with the frum yidden! Define menuvel? maybe he's a gadol and everything is ok???

    ReplyDelete
  40. Eidelson, who do you think you are? judging and saying who is or not a Talmid Chochom? WHO ARE YOU to make conclusions and judgments and incitements to close down a Yeshiva???

    ReplyDelete
  41. I would like to know your opinion, Rav Eidensohn, perhaps in a new post, of the state of play now with regard to the organization EJF.

    Where do rabbonim stand as to the yashrus of the way they operate in the field with intermarried couples? How close are we to having this organization universally denounced, disbanded or overhauled? Or do most Rabbonim hold the organization to be kosher?

    And what investigations if any do you know about that are going on either into Tropper or EJF? Rabbi Ribiat seemed to be alluding to something in his interview.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Thank you for your courageous post, Rav Eidensohn.

    I think the main points of the idea that you should believe a Torah scholar repents each day are 1) one should judge people favorably, particularly Torah scholars, and 2) if one wants to be true talmid chachom, one needs to talk to Hashem in hitbodedut every day and confess and make teshuvah for one's sins (see Rav Shalom Arush, In Forest Fields). The point is not that any Torah scholar can commit any sin and get away with it with no consequences, chas v'shalom.

    ReplyDelete
  43. As is well known, Chazal teach that "Talmidei Chachamim Marbim Shalom Ba'Olam". Since we see many people generally considered to be Talmidei Chachamim who are not marbe shalom but in fact do quite the opposite, we are left wondering about these words. Many people smile and say that perhaps Chazal were only joking, but this is not the case, they were telling us that being a Talmid Chacham is not just a matter of knowing lots of Torah information, but of becoming and living as a special kind of person. If there is a person who has lots of Torah knowledge and does not have the Midos that Chazal understood were part of a Talmid Chacham, this is not a Talmid Chacham. Instead such a person may enter the category of Oy L'Rabo Shelimdo Torah etc.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Please. 250 years ago he'd have had to roll naked in the snow and let an entire kehilla spit and step on top of him as he lay in the doorway of the shul for the magnitude of what he did; if he wanted a kappara, that is.

    ReplyDelete
  45. to the fellow who insists that tropper did teshuva, how do you explain the fact he continues telling his talmidim and anyone who will listen that he was set up and its all a lie?
    why the need for teshuva?
    is he so honest and ehrlich that he does teshuva even for sins he is accused of but did not commit?!

    ReplyDelete
  46. "to the fellow who insists that tropper did teshuva, how do you explain the fact he continues telling his talmidim and anyone who will listen that he was set up and its all a lie?
    why the need for teshuva?
    is he so honest and ehrlich that he does teshuva even for sins he is accused of but did not commit?!"

    He made a statement acknowledging some level of guilt, albeit maybe not to level the lynch mob on this blog would like.

    For those who apparently don't know, even Orand stated that he never did anything physically with her.

    Were there indiscretions here? Even serious indiscretions? Apparently. Was it totally unbecoming someone in his position? Yes.

    But the fact that such a person cannot have done teshuva -- or to even claim that he has not done teshuva is just so against the most basic Torah beliefs that some of you should question if you are really guilty of a far worse sin: sinas chinom. (Not to mention failing to be dan lchaf zchus a fellow Jew.)

    Good Shabbos.

    ReplyDelete
  47. ..."For those who apparently don't know, even Orand stated that he never did anything physically with her...."
    -------------
    So far I have counted 4 contradictory 'stories' from Orand. As to nothing physical happening, even her 'conversion' for political pay-back likely would not have happened if she admitted there was. Someone higher than Orand was orchestrating the damage control. Read the "Tablet" version of her story and what happened in the hotel room. Believable? Only by those who do not want to see. The compromising and lewd circumstances as described in her own words should have been enough to at least put her conversion on hold until after a lengthy investigatin. Some potential (female) converts are embarassed to be winding up their cnversions because of the way Orand's was handled. It looks like nothing more than marching women throuh a kosher food line.

    ReplyDelete
  48. to... Good Shabbos.

    January 29, 2010 9:31 PM
    ---------------------------------

    its obvious you did not read the question.

    his statement admitting "some level of guilt" was beyond vague.
    my question pertained to the fact THAT HE IS DENYING ANY WRONGDOING to his talmidim and others. he is insisting that he was set up, framed.

    Additionally im sure you are familiar with the folowing concept:
    KALO DILO PASIK. (for some 3 decades)

    As for you accusation of sinas chinam, this is simply not true. All anybody wants is a proper admission of guilt, a sincere apology and more importantly a promise to GO AWAY.

    ReplyDelete
  49. see: http://www.5tjt.com/news/read.asp?Id=5814

    ..... RR: The Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah I have spoken with have told me that he has vehemently denied the authenticity of the tapes to them.....


    and your convinced he did teshuva!?!

    (not to mention accusing people of sinas chinam).

    i hope with all sincerity that you personally will not be victimized before you will come to understand, that this man (devil reincarnate) is morally depraved, would destroy you if it was to his slight benefit and has done just that to many people.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I just received this letter from Kol Yaakov yeshiva. It is postmarked January 28, 2010 and the letter itself is dated January 25, 2010 on Kol Yaakov letterhead. I typed it out because I don't have a scanner.

    As you can read below, whomever sent this letter still believes in Tropper and fund raising is still on-going.

    Dear fellow alumni,

    Every morning for the past 26 years, without fail, Hilchos Lashon Hara from the sefer Chofetz Chaim have been learned in the Bais Medrash of Kol Yaakov, your Bais Medrash, after shacharis. This emphasis on binding together learning and character development in a tangible way is part of what makes Kol Yaakov so special.

    This past month, Kol Yaakov Torah Center has endured one of the most challenging periods of its 29 year history. Kol Yaakov has emerged whole and is forging ahead.

    Just this past Sunday, Rabbi Tropper and alumni of the yeshiva from Lakewood, Passaic, and Philadelphia gathered together in Lakewood for an asifa. Everyone took time out of their busy schedules to hear Divrei Torah from Rabbi Tropper, spend time with fellow alumni, and to gain new chizuk and direction.

    As alumni of Kol Yaakov, you are the most important people outside of the walls of the yeshiva to its health and continued growth. Please take the opportunity to be personally mechazek the yeshiva: taking time to learn and daven in the Bais Medrash, calling the yeshiva office to share your simchos, and donating much needed funds to help ensure our future. Even if you are not able to visit the Bais Medrash personally, please reach out and call Rabbi Tropper and the yeshiva – reconnect to Rabbi Tropper and your Makom Torah.

    Together, we will continue to emerge from this nisayon not as only as strong and healthy as before but in an even better position to broaden and intensify the yeshiva’s mission of teaching Torah, helping create a new generation of Tamidei Chachomim and strengthening Jewish life.

    B’yedidus,

    Yonason Meadows Binhyomin Segall Amitai Bielinki Yaakov Gruber

    ReplyDelete
  51. "Just this past Sunday, Rabbi Tropper and alumni of the yeshiva from Lakewood, Passaic, and Philadelphia gathered together in Lakewood for an asifa. Everyone took time out of their busy schedules to hear Divrei Torah from Rabbi Tropper, spend time with fellow alumni, and to gain new chizuk and direction."

    Is this even permissible when there is a chashash that what is coming out of his mouth is not based on Torah values?

    It is interesting to note that not all of the signatories left the yeshiva on good terms with tropper. What happened here? Are they receiving money from tropper that will be cut off if they don't show support? Are they afraid of losing their s'micha? Do they feel that if tropper is found wanting, then their reputations will suffer? That is certainly true now.

    What is even more interesting is that this letter came out when it seems tropper will continue to flourish. When it seemed that rabonnim might do something, we got a different response in
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/12/melave-malka-at-south-fallsburg-yeshiva.html


    Anonymous said...

    Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,
    I just learned that there is tremendous outrage amongst Tropper's Talmidim, including Rabbi Yakov Barros the Rov in our town. I heard about a letter that is being written to Trpper on behalf of his talmidim who are totally ashamed of the recent events. Tropper did indeed attend a Melava Malka for the Kollel of South Fallsburg under Rabbi Barros' leadership. I understand that Rabbi Barros wanted to cancel Tropper's invitation but was told by one of the Gedolim not to.
    ... More info will be forthcoming...

    ReplyDelete

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