Update: added Netziv, Toras Avaraham and Rav Kook regarding the legitimacy and importance of using commonsense - as long as it doesn't contradict the Torah.
Some of you have the idea that since the Torah is perfect - it is simply necessary to keep the mitzvos to the best degree possible and that will automatically insure that everything will happen in the proper manner.
Some of you have the idea that since the Torah is perfect - it is simply necessary to keep the mitzvos to the best degree possible and that will automatically insure that everything will happen in the proper manner.
If kids are going off the derech - well that means that they are not studying enough Torah or that the didn't say their berachos with enough kavana. If we have a high divorce rate, then the men need to spend more time with their gemora and less time with wives and children. If we have poverty it is obviously a defect in performance of some mitzva such as netilas yadayim. If there is a lack of achdus it must be because people speak too much lashon harah.
However that is simply not true. It is in fact necessary to understand the nature of society - and be able to observe the consequences of different ways of being an observant Jew but also how to modify and prioritize for maximum benefit to society and the individual. It is necessary to know each individual and what his or her needs are.
In addition there are times when the Torah laws are either supplemented or supplanted by rabbinic decrees. It is not possible to get it right solely by learning Torah and observing mitzvos - without monitoring and modifying. Reality must be understood and wise rabbinic guidance needs to be individualized - not only for each society but also for each individual.
Contrary to certain criticism of this understanding, normal human sense is greatly valued as a guide for applying the lessons of the Torah. This of course with the understanding that if there is a conflict between commonsense and the clear view of the Torah - that the Torah position is accepted and the commonsense view is rejected. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/06/commonsense-morality-and-empathy-can-be.html See in particular the views of the Netziv and Rav Kook which I have added to this post.
Contrary to certain criticism of this understanding, normal human sense is greatly valued as a guide for applying the lessons of the Torah. This of course with the understanding that if there is a conflict between commonsense and the clear view of the Torah - that the Torah position is accepted and the commonsense view is rejected. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/06/commonsense-morality-and-empathy-can-be.html See in particular the views of the Netziv and Rav Kook which I have added to this post.
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Bava Metzia (30b): Jerusalem was only destroyed because they insisted on following the letter of the law and they didn’t attend to the spirit of the law.
Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes L’Yaakov): According to the Halacha, Avraham was not obligated to risk his life to save his nephew Lot…. Avraham risked his life because the Patriarchs were yesharim (straight) [Avoda Zara 25a]. That means that their actions were not governed only by the strict letter of Torah law—but by straight thinking. G-d made man inherently yashar (straight). According to straightness, there was an obligation to try and save Lot… Avraham felt responsible for Lot’s welfare because Lot’s father had died in a furnace because of his belief in the G-d of Avraham. Therefore, according to straightness (menshlikeit) Avraham had to organize his men and pursue after Lot’s captors. In truth the lives of the Patriarchs—which was before the giving of the Torah—was based on the attribute straightness. This is the meaning of the expression [Vayikra Rabbah 9:3] that derech eretz (civility) preceded the Torah… Therefore, this civility and menshlikeit can be expected even from non-Jews. Even though they weren’t given all the mitzvos, but everyone can live in accordance with the inherent straightness—if he wants.
Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes LeYaakov Parshas Yechi page 237): A practical example of zealousness which is not based on a correct reading of the halacha is found in the following question. A person has the choice of marrying a Jewish woman who doesn’t observe the laws of family purity or a non Jewish woman. Which is preferable? A student who has not properly served an apprenticeship with an experienced posek will say that it is obvious that the person should chose to marry the non Jewish woman. That is because sexual relations with a nidah is punished by kares while sexual relations with a non-Jew is only a violation of a negative commandment of the Torah which is not punished by kares. The truth is not this way. Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:7-8) states that even though sexual relations with a non-Jewish maidservant is only a rabbinic prohibition he rules that, “this sin even though it is not punished by capital punishment from the court should not be viewed lightly. That is because there is a loss associated with sexual relations with a non Jew which you don’t find in the violation of all the other prohibited sexual relations. That loss is that the son from the other prohibited sexual relations is still his son in every respect and is considered a Jew. That is true even if the child is a mamzer. In contrast the son from a non Jewish woman is not his son…. This sexual relationship with a non-Jewish woman will cause him to turn away from G-d and to attach himself to non-Jews. - from whom G-d has deliberately separated us so that we can be close to G-d... “ It is clear from this that the person should chose the relationship with the Jewish woman even though she doesn’t observe the laws of family purity.
Malbim (Mishlei 11:3): There is a distinction between yesharim (straightness) and tzadikim (righteous). The yashar is one who naturally goes on the straight path – whether it is in religious thought or matters of understanding. That is because the majority of issues concerning yashar involve understanding (binah) or moral traits and deeds that are rooted in wisdom (chochma). Therefore when it comes to matters of wisdom (chochma) the yashar is distinguished from the tzadik in that the yashar naturally has the inclination in his heart to do good because of the straightness which is implanted in him. In contrast the tzadik’s conduct is based upon having learnt what righteous behavior is and constantly practicing it until the tzadik conquers his baser drives and trains himself to do the opposite of his nature. The yashar is simply expressing his nature. Furthermore the yashar is not concerned with the letter of the law but is concerned with the spirit of the law - until he conducts himself beyond that which the law actually requires….
Netziv (Introduction to Bereishis): …The praise of yashrus (straightness) is to reinforce G-d’s judgment in destroying the Second Temple which as a generation of tzadikim and chassidim and those devoted to learning Torah—however they were not yashar in the mundane world. Therefore, because of the baseless hatred in their hearts to each other they suspected that whomever they saw who did not conduct himself according to their opinion in fear of G d —that he must be a heretic. Consequently, this led to much killing and all the evils in the world until the Temple was destroyed. Thus, there was an acknowledgement of the straightness of G-d’s judgment in that He would not tolerate tzadikim like these. Rather he wanted tzadikim who were straight in the world. Because even if the non-straight tzadikim were motivated by religious consideration—such conduct destroys the world.
Rashba (3:393): My view is that if the witnesses are believed by the judges, then it is permitted to punish the accused financially or physically depending upon what the judges think is appropriate to be beneficial to society. Because if we insist on doing only what is specified by Torah law and not to punish except as specified in the Torah – the world will end up destroyed. That is because the elementary rules of a functioning society will be breached and consequently it will be ruined. It is an established practice to punish those who physically harm others…Every community makes judgments in order to preserve it and this is true in every generation and every place according to what is perceived as the needs of the times. For example we see (Sanhedrin 58b) that Rav Huna, who was in Babylonia, would amputate hands as punishment. Therefore these judges you referred to who punished the accused not in accord with Torah law – if they saw the need for it to preserve the society – they have correctly acted according to the halacha. This is true when there is a specific order from the king as we see in the case of R’ Eliezar the son of R’ Shimon bar Yochai in Bava Metzia (83a)
Rav Yosef Eliashiv (Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231): … Question: If someone is sexually abusing a boy a girl in circumstances which we can’t stop him from continuing his evil deeds – is it permissible to notify the government authorities? Answer: Rashba (3:393) states: “My view is that if the witnesses are believed by the judges, then it is permitted to punish the accused financially or physically depending upon what the judges think is appropriate to be beneficial to society. Because if we insist on doing only what is specified by Torah law and not to punish except as specified in the Torah – the world will end up destroyed. That is because the elementary rules of a functioning society will be breached and consequently it will be ruined. It is an established practice to punish those who physically harm others…Every community makes judgments in order to preserve it and this is true in every generation and every place according to what is perceived as the needs of the times. For example we see (Sanhedrin 58b) that Rav Huna, who was in Babylonia, would amputate hands as punishment. Therefore these judges you referred to who punished the accused not in accord with Torah law – if they saw the need for it to preserve the society – they have correctly acted according to the halacha. This is true when there is a specific order from the king as we see in the case of R’ Eliezar the son of R’ Shimon bar Yochai in Bava Metzia (83a).” We learn from the Rashba’s words that when action is needed for the well being of society (tikun olam), that the Jewish sages have the ability in every generation to act to preserve the society and to repair breaches – even when there isn’t a specific order from the king. The Ritva (Bava Metzia 83b) has stated that this order of the king is “if the king says to capture certain criminals, even though the government will judge without witnesses and warning [as required by Torah law] and there is no functioning Sanhedrin [as required by Torah law] – it is still permitted since he is acting as the agent of the king. Since it is the law of the land to execute criminals without the testimony of witnesses and warning - as it states [Shmuel 2’ 1:5-16] that Dovid killed the Amalekite ger who had acceded to Shaul’s request to kill him -the agent of the king is like him.” However according to what has been said, in a matter which is needed for the well being of society (tikun olam), it is not needed to have been ordered to act by the king [in order to act as needed]. However, it is permitted to notify the government authorities only in the case which it is certain that the accused has been sexually abusing children. Informing the authorities in such a case is clearly something for the well being of the society (tikun olam). However in a case where there is no proof that this activity is happening but it is merely a conjecture or suspicion, if we permit the calling of the authorities - not only would it not be an improvement (tikun olam) - but it would destroy society. That is because it is possible that allegations are being made solely because of some bitterness the student has against his teacher or because of some unfounded fantasy. As a result of these false allegations the accused will be placed in a situation for which death is better than life – even though he is innocent. Therefore I do not see any justification for calling the authorities in such circumstances.
Shulchan Aruch (C. M. 2:1): Every court – even those that do not have semicha from Israel – if they see that the see that the people is corrupted by sin (and thus it is an emergency situation) can issue judgments whether concerning capital punishment or financial matters or any other punishments even without testimony according to Torah standards. If the transgressor is a powerful person than it is possible to punish him through the agency of non-Jews. Furthermore the court has the power to appropriate his money and to do with it what they see fit to strengthen the community. All the activities of the court need to be for the sake of heaven. This license to go beyond the letter of the law is specifically only for the greatest rabbis of the generation or the community leaders. It has been the practice in every place that the community leaders have the status similar to that of the Sanhedrin in that they can give beatings and punishments as well as appropriate a person’s property – all according to the local practice. Even though there are those poskim which disagree and say that the local communities authorities do not have such powers but can only pressure the community according to the local practices or their actions need to be agreed upon by everyone. However according to these poskim they have no power to make any changes in law in situations where there is benefit to one party and loss to another or to appropriate someone’s money without his agreement. Nevertheless one should follow the practices of the city. And surely these powers exist in fact everyone member of the community accepts that the leaders have these powers. The achronim mention in their responsa that some who is deserving of lashes should give 40 gold coins as a substitute for the 40 lashes. This is not according to the letter of the law but is only an emergency measure. Therefore the court has the emergency power to administer lashes or to take money according to what they see are the needs of the times (migder milsa).
Netziv(Approbation to Ahavas Chesed): ….It says in Yevamos (79a): There are three inherent characteristics of the Jewish people – they are merciful, shy and they do acts of kindness to others. … Nevertheless there are explicit commands in the Torah to do acts of kindness such as Vayikra (25:35): You shall support your brother who has become poor, Shemos (22:24): Do not lend money with interest. The reason for this is to teach us that besides being obligated to do acts of kindness because we are human beings we have an addition obligation from the Torah – just as we have for all the mitzvos which we wouldn’t know from commonsense. The consequences of having both an inherent commonsense obligation as being part of mankind as well as an explicit command in the Torah is illustrated by the obligation to honor parents. The Torah command teaches that even though there is a command from commonsense that all of mankind is obligated to keep and receives reward for do it, nevertheless G‑d has in addition explicitly commanded us to do it as an aspect of the Torah (Shemos 20:11)… As a Torah mitzva honoring parents is a statute which must be done simply because it was commanded and not because it makes sense. For example if a non‑Jew fathers a child with a Jewish woman, than according to the Torah that child has a mother but no father. Therefore there is a greater obligation of honoring the mother than the father because the honor of the mother is dictated by not only commonsense but also from the Torah. …There are also consequences for lending money to a needy person. Even though it is clearly a commonsense obligation but it is also governed by Torah law. In this case the obligation from commonsense is inconsistent with the obligation of the Torah. The contradiction occurs in regard to charging interest. For example, in the case of a person whose life depends upon lending money with reasonable interest. From the commonsense point of view he still performs a great mitzva of lending money – even with interest – to sustain another person who desperately needs the loan. However the Torah specifically prohibits charging interest. Therefore according to the Torah a Jew would not be able to lend the money and thus he is prohibited from doing the kindness to the other person as well as sustaining himself. [This was explained in Harchev Davar - Bereishis 48:19 – concerning the Tabernacle at Shiloh…]
Rav Kook(Shemonah Kevatzim (1:463): The people who rely solely on their commonsense - because they are not learned - actually have an advantage in many respects over those who are learned. That is because their natural understanding and sense of decency has not become corrupted by errors that result from scholarship and or by the exhaustion and emotional frustrations that result from the burden of study. Nevertheless the unlearned masses obviously need the guidance of the scholars to know the particulars of the halacha. On the other hand, the scholars need to adopt and utilize as much is possible of the unadulterated commonsense of the unlearned masses – whether it is the approach to life or recognizing the natural moral values. This will result in the continued proper development of their understanding. This approach is even for tzadikim and even for those wicked people who retain a natural part which provides them with the potential to build on their natural power and purity to the same degree as the righteous at their highest level. The same can be said in regards to the nations in their relationship with each other – in particular non-Jew and Jews.
Toras Avraham(Toras HaSeichel HaEnushi #1) basing himself on Rabbeinu Nissim Gaon says "The general rule is for mankind is – everything that commonsense can comprehend – man is obligated to do and he is punished if he transgresses. The more obvious it is the greater is the obligation and the greater is the corresponding punishment. That is because man is beloved in that he was created in the 'image of G‑d' and has wisdom which corresponds to Heavenly wisdom
Toras Avraham[(Toras
HaSeichel HaEnushi #2) Seichel is not simply intelligence the faculty which
a person understands and comprehends. Seichel is the Truth of Uprightness with
which G‑d created Man in order to guide him in life. Man has the obligation
that this Uprightness does not get corrupted and distorted and that he be an
honest judgment to bring things to fulfillment. Man's Torah thus consists not
only those of mitzvos which Man was directly commanded by G‑d but also those mitzvos
which are dictated by seichel.
Thanks for sharing - as in the first resource - it is only the awareness of these guidelines that will enable a person to go beyond the letter of law - A major problem in the education system is ignoring these guidelines and focusing on mitvoth, aveiros, reward and punishment - on parashat Be'shalach זה אלי ואנוהו I I wrote
ReplyDelete" The tragedy of modern education is that we focus mainly on behaviors of the child and not the whole child. We ignore feelings, values and motives that are behind the behaviors or mitzvoth. We have a blind faith in extrinsic motivation, the ' lo lishmah ' and will use all the bribes, prizes and rewards to get behaviors and mitzvoth and ignore why the kid is doing the mitzvah. The only thing we are teaching the kid is to ask – what will I get if I do this , what will be done to me if I don't or do this , in short – what's in it for me. The kid is made to think about consequences, but only consequences for himself. We use praise to help the kid think about himself, instead of helping the kid reflect on how his actions impact on others. We teach rules and the consequences and punishments for breaking these rules. We don't teach values and encourage commitment to these values. We don't give children ' guidelines for living' that will give them a vision and guide their behavior.
R' Isaac Sher brings to our attention the opening words of the Mesilat Yesharim – the Path of the Just explaining man's duty in his world. The Mesilat Yesharim does not say on what man must work and labor, but begins by saying that, man must clarify his purpose in life, attitude, direction and orientation that will guide and give value to his life. The Torah gives guidelines by which we can give purpose and direction to our lives. The verse we have been discussing – זה אלי ואנוהו teaches us guiding principles of life – that we should try to emulate God's ways and resemble him in our interpersonal relationships. Just as He is gracious and merciful, so should you be. We can try and make ourselves a sanctuary – מקדש for God and impact on others in a physical, emotional and spiritual way.
As parents and teachers we should be focusing on Torah values and guidelines for life and how our actions impact on others around us and not on rules and consequences. So kids will be able to reflect on what type of people they would like to be and say –' this is my God and I will glorify Him' , emulate His ways and become a sanctuary for His divine presence.
Thank you. A very important post.
ReplyDeleteThis is truly a great post and resource.
ReplyDeleteYour second paragraph is unfair because it doesn't represent the mindset of those who hold of what you wrote in your first paragraph. You wrote:
ReplyDelete"If kids are going off the derech - well that means that they are not studying enough Torah or that the didn't say their berachos with enough kavana. If we have a high divorce rate, then the men need to spend more time with their gemora and less time with wives and children. If we have poverty it is obviously a defect in performance of some mitzva such as netilas yadayim. If there is a lack of achdus it must be because people speak too much lashon harah."
This is not what The Torah teaches. By representing The Torah in that way you are making of mockery of The Torah. Let's go one by one.
"If kids are going off the derech - well that means that they are not studying enough Torah or that the didn't say their berachos with enough kavana. If we have a high divorce rate, then the men need to spend more time with their gemora and less time with wives and children."
The Torah doesn't say anything like that. It's says Aizehu mechubad hamechabed es habrios. It says Divrei chachomim benachas nishmaim. It says Rodef tzedaka vachesed yimtza chaim tzedaka vechavod. It says mechabda yoser megufo. It says shlosha machnifim loham ishto meshum shalom bayis... talmidim keday sheyekablu devorov.
"If we have poverty it is obviously a defect in performance of some mitzva such as netilas yadayim."
Are you talking about people who work and follow all practical advice and still are forever having unexpected lossses? If so then they should be mefashpesh bemaasim. But if you are referring to people who don't work, then they are not following The Torah clearly which says that we must work for a living and teach our children a trade.
" If there is a lack of achdus it must be because people speak too much lashon harah."
I'm not sure what your point is with that. I would reverse it " If people speak too much lashon harah, it's because there is a lack of achdus."
So show me where you feel that The Torah is lacking Ch'v.
Amazing post.
ReplyDeleteI've been trying to say this all along. Common sense plays such an important rule in Jewish behaviour and practice but is all but ignored when it seems to conflict with the strict letter of the law.
A Torah life is supposed to be "darchei noam". If one is making others miserable, it ain't a Torah life.
Also let me define 'The spirit of the law'. It means we look at a law and we see what it's function is, and we learn from the fact that we were commanded to follow that law, that we should also do more actions that have that function. It is the spirit of 'The Law' not the spirit of our boich sevara. Everything has to be clearly rooted in The Torah.
ReplyDeleteNo one said otherwise
ReplyDeleteFor an obviously very intelligent person it is astounding that you totally misread what I wrote
ReplyDeleteThe Torah and mitzvos provide many values
The issue is how to apply and prioritize them for particular situations
That is where metarules are important
See Ramban on commandment to be holy
See Netziv I cited about the destruction caused by tzadikim
Ok. But the problem is when you use a ideal called tikun olam, because you understand that to be the spirit of the law. That is like saying that the spirit of the law is to be good. The word good is too broad, and so is the word tikun. It doesn't give any guidance at all. One person's tikun is another person's kilkul. So we need much more specific descriptions of the spirits of mitzvos. When we use the words tikun olam and say, 'well it says lesaken olam etc. that opens the doors of deception. It opens the doors of saying anything you want, and all in the name of The Torah. You can't prove that it's correct to besmirch Trump by using words like tikun olam. We can all provide chazals to show whatever we want. But when a clear reading of chazal includes very clear specific direction, then we know it's Torah.
ReplyDeleteThis is very interesting post - and even though I am inspired by the Netziv and Rav Kook, are those views accepted widely today? Or - even if they are not widely accepted, does it matter, since they seem to be very truthful.
ReplyDeleteRav Kook's view is so radical, I would be surprised if anyone who calls themselves Haredi would accept it. In fact, he was alleged to have made some comments about secular Zionists, and their special "kedusha" which got him into deep trouble with the hareidi world.
Justifying a person's own political emotions and feelings as being what the Torah wants is just outright wrong. Replacing a lack of sources by beating up on those who may have their own misreadings doesn't change anything.
ReplyDeleteIf kids are going off the derech - well that means that they are not studying enough Torah or that the didn't say their berachos with enough kavana.
Straw man #1?
There are definitely times where a kid would have been saved had a real appreciation, enjoyment and love of learning Torah been instilled in him. Do you deny this?
לוּלֵי תוֹרָתְךָ שַׁעֲשֻׁעָי, אָז אָבַדְתִּי בְעָנְיִי
Same with brachos: There are times where the proper emotional connection is lacking. An appreciation of brachos was deficient.
Because something is not the reason all the time, it has no relevance or bearing on the fact that it is indeed the reason some of the time.
If we have a high divorce rate, then the men need to spend more time with their gemora and less time with wives and children.
Straw man #2?
That solution is entirely dependent on the cause. Are you insinuating that this is NEVER a solution?
Again, because something is not the reason all the time, it has no relevance or bearing on the fact that it is indeed the reason some of the time.
If we have poverty it is obviously a defect in performance of some mitzva such as netilas yadayim.
Straw man #3?
Are you suggesting that there are NEVER metaphysical causes that affect people's finances?
Again, because something is not the reason all the time, it has no relevance or bearing on the fact that it is indeed the reason some of the time.
If there is a lack of achdus it must be because people speak too much lashon harah.
Is loshon hora and rechilus not real?
________
How does any of this justify teaming up with the left in order to wish for the impeachment of a president who has admittedly not done anything to deserve impeachment. How does the marketing ploy of a defeated movement and ideals somehow become what the Torah wants of us?
Was Rav Kook duped by the secular Zionists, several times?
ReplyDeleteDid he agree to speak at Hebrew University's opening in exchange for a guarantee that they won't have bible criticism classes? Did have those classes anyhow, right from the beginning?
Did he agree to speak about the football league positively, in exchange for a guarantee that they won't play on Shabbos? Did they play on Shabbos anyhow?
Rav Kook's ideas and ideals we're not in-line with the original Mizraki movement. Many of his biggest chasidim will say that his love of all Jews made it difficult to see the truth in some areas. I've even heard one of his chasidim - R. Berel Wein - say that he suffered from naivete.
all true - but what does that have to do with his statement which is clearly true
ReplyDeletejust as you seem to have no idea what I am saying nor the reality or sources supporting my position - you seem to have no idea what Trump is accomplishing
ReplyDeleteThat his views on compromise have to seen in the context of how he used it and what the results were (some of the time).
ReplyDeletetrue but as I noted he is consistent with the other sources I quoted
ReplyDeleteSomeone who is Torah observant told me that if someone "frum", such as someone brought up "frum", stops being "frum", then they were never "frum". He said this over in the name of someone he respects for their Torah learning.
ReplyDeleteAccording to this, someone who is truly "frum" will never stop being "frum". I put that one in my pipe and tried to smoke it, but couldn't even get it to light.
everyone has been duped at some stage. If you have involvement with a society, which is marxist in nature, you are bound to get problems. But even if you shut off completely , you have to deal with someone, in the outside world.
ReplyDeleteHow do we know if an idea is true or false? Often we have that intuition that something is wrong. But people will stick to a fallacy because it is being said by someone in a position of authority.
I think Rambam writes about several levels of prophecy, and that it is the natural state fo man to have prophecy. But strict mechanical regimen, eg when the Shulchan Aruch is simply a set of rules to follow, might dull the ability to tap into that intuition. I am not focussing on Halacha, but any type of rigid thinking.
I recall a post here which pointed out that the netziv's views were also questioned?
This was the post about the Chafetz Chaim's alleged disapproval of the Netziv's view:
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/01/chofetz-chaim-disapproved-of-netzivs.html
The Toras Avraham is pure meshivas nefesh.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference. It was this very attitude of his towards compromising with the secular Zionists which was strongly objected to. As things turned out, was he duped in isolated instances, or in many significant and major cases?
ReplyDelete