Monday, January 11, 2010

Mekubal's Blog: Ezekiel 8 response to assertion that Orand's conversion vindicated Tropper


This is the purported response of the Ezekiel 8 group to a post on Mekubal's Blog  "Apologies are in order":
==============================
B'ezrat Hashem Yitbarach

Ezekiel 8 : Groups 12/13
Official Response

HaMekubal, your analysis is so factually baseless/mistaken it's almost an EJF-Tropper advertisement.

You seem like a an honest enough fellow; where do you get your rumours from that mislead you into this kind of blatant foolishness?

Let us point out some of the major fallacies you suffer and promulgate, in the hope that you will correct yourself promptly:

To be clear the conversion was done against Israeli Law, and against the stance of the Rabbinate.

You say this, what is your proof, do you know that that the Israeli CR didn't authorise this in advance? For the record, this BD was authorised in advance by the Israeli CR.

This Gadol stated clearly that if the tapes were true...

This Gadol obviously has some tremendous problems with Choshen Mishpat; if you/he can prove that he is privvy to ALL of the evidence, that still doesn't mean his conclusion is right, his opinion is worth no more and no less than any other uninvolved bystander. At best, he certainly was not able to see/hear all of the evidence here, "chachamim, hizharu b'dvarechem", v'hamevin yavin.

It appears that despite professional authentication of the audios and videos that they simply cannot be relied upon

These kind of statements are non-sequitors, you state something as a fact, then you draw a concrete verdict from it, with no basis. Even you "hedge", saying: "It appears", without explicity acknowledging that what "appears" is not neccessarily what is.

She was accused of ... allowing a surveilance[sic] team to set up cameras in her hotel room(on more than one occaision[sic]) to video her having illicit relations with a man and his wife.

1) Who "accused"? Why "accuse" someone of defending themselves? As it is, obviously many victims of erevRabbanim misLeaders have a difficult enough time believing hard evidence and hard facts, and it's also clear the "pilpul" dance of "make it go away" is really in full swing now.

Read and comprehend, please. She is NOT the only victim, she IS the only victim who has "gone public" (so far).

We are the surveillance team, and she and "her" hotel room wasn't the only persons or places involved, R"L.

What is more Rabbis who have recieved the full packet of evidence state that there are multiple videos of her also having relations with other men.

We repeat - THERE ARE MULTIPLE VIDEOS/AUDIOS OF TROPPER INVOLVED WITH WOMEN AND MEN (CANDIDATES FOR GIYUR, MARRIED AND UNMARRIED, AND OTHERS) WHO ARE NOT HIS WIFE, don't keep insisting that Rahel is the only victim, she is the only victim who has "gone public".

She also stands accused of taking money from an enemy of Tropper to make these recordings and videos. With verifiable email evidence to back those claims.

Again, you slander a victim. She herself admits part of the control exercised by Tropper was him paying her for participating in realising his perverse fantasies and fetishes, and let's not forget his worthless promises to help speed her "geirus"...

WE can verify beyond any doubt that she received no money from anyone, least of all "an enemy of Tropper", for any of her righteous actions in exposing EJF-Tropper criminal and immoral misdeeds. After all, we admit to taking any neccessary action in this matter at our own expense and initiative (and there is far more to this matter than the EJF-Tropper issues).

Make no mistake, this geirus is not recognized...

You make no mistake, siyag l'chochma - shtika.

bobX@anonymousspeech.com

111 comments :

  1. I do believe that it would be a historical first for the Israeli Rabbinate to authorize a B"D to act when one of the Rabbanim on said B"D is not a Dayyan. R' Amar has refused to hand over responsibility for geirus to R' Metzger based on this very problem. Well perhaps R' Metzger will soon be able to assume the position that we tax-payers are paying him for.

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  2. The remarks by Ezekiel 8: Groups 12/13 are interesting, but no more. There are claims that remain unsubstantiated and somewhat disturbing.

    For example, no evidence of other tapes have surfaced and their is no substantiation that this group was somehow involved in the whole sordid mess (who put this group up this activity? They claim to have many tapes- for how long has this been going on? These are not exactly activities that speak highly of the group).

    Credibility is a two way street. Simply making assertions does not enhance an argument. Without corroboration, the charges by this group are just that- baseless charges only.

    Rav Eidensohn, they and the Mekubal blogger are cut from the same cloth and hardly worth your time.

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  3. the language of these Ezekiel guys sounds very Jewish, although they have in the past posted here and said things about more evidence coming and have not kept to their words, i dont know how much one can rely on them.

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  4. Daas Torah said...

    Rabbi Wender just confirmed for me that he accepts the validity of the conversion and that she is now a member of the Jewish people. He said that from what he can ascertain there were 3 kasher Rabbis and a sincere kabbalas mitzvahs

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  5. 3 Kasher Rabbis, means 3 kasher witnesses. So when the B"D states that they reviewed the evidence and found that Ms Orand never had a physical relation with Tropper or his wife, what we are told is that the video the above claims to have is false.

    What we are also told is that those parts of the audio where they specifically reference said physical relations are false. 3 Kosher witnesses and Dayyanim saying they have investigated it and found it to be false.

    So we are expected to believe the rest of the "evidence" is in fact true. Just the parts that damn Ms Orand are false? What is the hava mina for such a thing?

    As far as I can tell this clears Tropper. Likewise it by necessity calls into question other "evidence" this supposed Ezekiel group claims to have. If the "evidence" they have already foisted upon the world is shown to be false, how can we trust what will be forthcoming from them?

    I know people are going to call me stupid, and deceived, and a EJF/Tropper supporter, and any number of other things, because they have already made up their minds, like I had, that Rav Tropper must be guilty. I had even gone through the trouble of having the tapes professionally confirmed. However professionals can only give percentages of reliability. These three kosher Rabbanim, two of whom are Dayyanim and Chief Rabbis of cities, say that they are absolutely certain that information found in the videos and audios is false. By Torah law I see no way around that.

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  6. Ezekiel have in the past commented like this, that they have further evidence but have fallen short on delivery of their promises, lets see this time

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  7. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 11, 2010 at 6:36 PM

    Some observations:

    *Mekubal has always had a perspective from inside the Israeli system because he has admitted to studying for dayanut in Israel himself. He has to be cautious. He cannot give his "consent" to all forms of controversy. But he does not have to speak out on every issue either. Hizharo bedivreichem is right!

    *In Israel they have their system of recognizing officially sanctioned dayanim, more a vestige of Ottoman and British rule when rabbis needed to be recognized and "certified" as official clergy and judges by the ruling Ottoman Turks and later by the British.

    *The system of the Ottomans and the British with their notion of a "Chief Rabbi" and STATE-recognized rabbis through a STATE-controlled and STATE-sanctioned Chief Rabbinate has continued in secular modern-day Israel since 1948, but at the same time the notion of a "chief rabbi" and an official organized "chief rabbinate" does not exist either in the Torah or in Halachah. There can be a Nosi, or a Rashkebehag, or Reish Metivta, or maybe even Tzadik hador, but the idea of a "chief rabbi" and a "chief rabbinate" that gives orders and decides who gets appointed to which job like in a potemkin state run beurocracy is actually mocked and looked down upon in Torah Jewry.

    *Since the destruction of the Bais Hamikdosh and with it the Sanhedrin, the nobility of Torah has been a MERITOCRACY OF NOBILITY OF TORAH SCHOLARSHIP AND ABILITY, man malchi rabbanan, that is attained by those who naturally rise to the top and are accepted as rabbonim by the Jewish people, and not by being "appointed" by any Turkish, British or Israeli state organs. Rav Chaim Oizer was the gadol hador by dint of his gadlus. The Chazon Ish likewise. Rav Moshe Feinstein was the gadol hador not because anyone appointed him, same goes for Rav Eliashiv today even though at one time he was an official dayan of the state but he has long surpassed that situation.

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  8. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 11, 2010 at 6:37 PM

    Observations/continued:

    *Now that Israel is under the control of the Jewish people, and with many of the Orthodox and Charedi sectors coming to the fore of leadership, the older more traditional approach to WHO IS A RABBI, to to do anything Halachic, comes to the fore once again, pushing away the Ottoman and British criteria still utilized by the secular Israeli state.

    *In objective Halacha, ANY three respectable talmidei chachomim, preferably good and righteous Orthodox or Chareidi rabbis, can convene a bais din of three dayanim to decide wether to accept a ger or giyores. This is the way it was always done for 2000 years since the Sanhedrin's destruction and this is still how it is done all over the wowrld. Israel is different because they still have that vestige from Ottoman and British rule, the Chief Rabbinate.

    *Now of course, mekubal is in a bind, he's attempting to get dayanut certification through the chief rabbinate so he cannot suddenly accept that three very choshuv rabbonim not sanctioned by the Chief Rabbinate ruled to accept Shannon Rachel Orand as a a giyores. They are not dummies and no one has ruled against thme, but don't put it past Tropper and Eisenstein to run around and collect signatures from rabbis who owe them for their bribery and sign a letter against the three rabbis who converted Shannon Rachel Orand. But their decision has now evidently been recognized and accepted by Rabbi Wender in Houston.

    *Sure no one is obligated to go along with any geirus in today's highly fractured world. The very idea of a "universally accepted conversion" is also an utter falsehood because there is no such animal since every group's leading rabbonim has the right to question the validity of any geirus and ask for more clarification (just as in kashrus or in gittin there is always room for higher improved standards) and maybe even another geirus lechumra, or lechatchila may be in order according to some rabbonim, so be it. Satmar does not accept RCA or rabbanut conversions, the BADATS does not accept EJF-style geirim who have been proselytized to. The Rabbanut questions RCA geirus. And in Israel each group is paseling the geirus of each other. So be it, and it is everyone's right to do so until the coming of mashiach.

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  9. I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but what are the sources for a goyah's having been a zonah barring her from conversion? There are numerous famous cases of goyah zonot converting. Secondly, if the convert lied to the B.D. about physical contact, wouldn't that potentially posul her geirut? It seems quite possible that the B.D. could have reached their conclusion based on false edut by the goyah incomplete evidence, especially if they where unaware of the additional audio and video evidence beyond what has been publicly published. It would be a shame for LT to be exonerated because of a technicality. The first thing that came to mind for me was R. Kahana's HYD murder in New York, and how the killer was set free even though there where hundreds of witnesses. That killer went on to help carry out the first World Trade Center bombing. If LT gets off we may be in store for an even greater Chillul HaShem and our own religious 9/11, has v'shalom.

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  10. Mekubal said: I know people are going to call me stupid, and deceived, and a EJF/Tropper supporter, and any number of other things, because they have already made up their minds, like I had, that Rav Tropper must be guilty.....


    Those that have known tropper for the last 20+ years are hardly surprised at the allegations and knew it was just a matter of time before he would be exposed for who he was.
    Unfortunately - for all those that suffered because of his actions- it took as long as it did.

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  11. Mekubal-

    The only evidence produced to date are the audio tapes of a phone call. To base your stance on hearsay and facts not in evidence is a kind of intellectual slight of hand, a kind of 3 card monte exhibition.


    The tapes that are in evidence do not put Tropper in a kind light nor does it 'clear' him of anything. The fact is he made the call.

    That Ormond taped the call speaks to how she made every effort to protect herself (as she should. Tropper's actions were predatory, to say the least). She is the mother of two children and in a 'he said, she said', showdown, Tropper would steam roller her. The tape she made did exactly what it was supposed to do- protect her from a predator by providing evidence that it was he and not her that initiated the inappropriate behavior.

    Tropper's offer of an expedited geirus in exchange for anything speaks volumes as to his credibility.

    Clearly, the beis din recognized that reality. Her geirus was accepted without reser4vation.

    Further, your characterizations of Rabbi Wender's stance was false. This was not an error on your part- those characterizations were 180 degrees off. Only when you were confronted with real clarification did you back track.

    You ought not be osek in matters in which you are unwilling or unable to be impartial.

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  12. Mekubal said:
    These three kosher Rabbanim, two of whom are Dayyanim and Chief Rabbis of cities, say that they are absolutely certain that information found in the videos and audios is false. By Torah law I see no way around that.

    Aaron Said:

    There is one greater evidence in the Gemara than 2 witnesses, this is where you err Rabbi Mekubal. That is "ba harug bergalov" i.e. the evidence is clear in front of us,as opposed to relying on witnesses, these recordings fall into that cateogry, therfore when placed with these 2 contradictory items the "ba harug beraglov" is stronger, acording to the torah law.

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  13. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 11, 2010 at 7:26 PM

    "robert said...It would be a shame for LT to be exonerated because of a technicality."

    Well he can't be "exonerated" because he has been forced to quit in disgrace as head of EJF and even his supposed stand-in R EB Wachtfogel was scorched enough by residual heat of the scandal (good pun) and was unable to withstand the pressure to fill Tropper's shsoes and was also forced to quit as Tropper's preferred designated replacement as head of EJF.

    In addition, even the pro-EJF ads now circulating admit to "unfortunate events" and the EJF website was scrubbed clean of Tropper's name and Tropper shut down his own blog devoted to his own self-glorification and aologetics for his EJf antics, all admissions of guilt, short of mentioning the sexploits as revealed and reoprted in the Jewish and world media. In addition to the word of Shannon Orand implicating Leib and Leba Tropper.

    The RCA has condemend him. The London Bais Din has condemned him. Not to mention the BADATS that has long ago condemned him. That's already three strikes from three rabbinical bodies. So bottom line he CANNOT be "exonerated" -- however what Tropper can do, and this world is still a free world and Tropper still has enough big money from his blind disciples like Tom Kaplan and his wife Dafna Recanati, and he still has enough hypnotized and unthinking robotic zombie followers in Monsey and in many places in America and Eretz Yisroel, to become a "MARTYR" and it may be harsh but it's to the point, like Jesus, Shabtai Tzvi and Jacob Frank became "martyrs" to their unthinking disciples and are even to this day still idolized and worshipped by their blind devotees who are/were psychologically, emotionally, perhaps even physically and even spiritually (in its dark sense) frozen and incapable of seeing the truth and reality of the evil shysters that had led them astray.

    So that what you then say is very true and possible: "If LT gets off we may be in store for an even greater Chillul HaShem and our own religious 9/11, has v'shalom." !!!!

    Indeed, Tropper on the loose and on the prowl, still powered-up with his high testosterone levels and fully manic and suffering from not just delusions of grandeur but now also from a persecution complex and enabled by Tom Kaplan and Dafna Recanati, and with a following of storm troopers (good pun) is a huge danger to Klal Yisroel and it is not even a question that he "may" cause an even greater Chillul Hashem but that he WILL cause a greater Chillul Hashem because that is what he does best and he is convinced he is in the right!

    Tighten your seatbelts. This match still has many more rounds to go!

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  14. Eternal Jewish Fraud WatchJanuary 11, 2010 at 7:32 PM

    The rabbonim may have ruled that the woman is an anussah who was forced into znus with coercion and threats. This probably does not meet the criteria that invalidates a gerus because of consensual relations. I would have thought that mekubal is smart enough to figure that out.

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  15. Eternal Jewish Fraud WatchJanuary 11, 2010 at 7:37 PM

    To expand on what someone wrote that Yechezkel 8 sounds "Jewish", it is probably a reference to the famous Jackie Mason skit of "if he does vone more ting ...! To this day, no vone knows vhat dat ting is!"

    In other words, let us borrow from the old adage: "either put up or shut up".

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  16. Ezekiel DID in fact deliver the promised video testimony. The films were delivered only to Rabbis and Roshei Yeshiva who have a halachic need to know.

    I have obviously not personally seen the video footage, but I have been told by Rabbis whom I respect, who have viewed the footage that the video testimony does indeed contain the horrendous material that the Ezekiel group promised.

    Maybe this footage should be posted on YouTube so that every Jewish man woman and child can see the terrible things that happened. Then there will be no more doubt.

    Frankly, I am shocked that Mekubal who has on so many occasions on this blog, claimed to be closely involved with Chief Rabbis and Gedolim would not have access to all of the same information that I do and much much more.

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  17. Someone needs to authenticate Mekubal.

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  18. mekubal
    the bais din never claimed that the videos and audio is false, speak to them yourself before making such stupid assertions. they just felt she can megayer in spite of what took place.
    either she was sincere enough baalas teshuva enough whatever, you can call it on their part..bad judgement or hasty, but again they dont say they reviewed the evidence and found it false to the contrary, they removed the title "rabbi" from tropper because of the evidence that they found to be true, so now you ask how can she be megayer,thats the bais dins problem.. speak to them..
    r wender too he accepts her geirus because three dayanim said so, not that the evidence is false!

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  19. Frankly, I am shocked that Mekubal who has on so many occasions on this blog, claimed to be closely involved with Chief Rabbis and Gedolim would not have access to all of the same information that I do and much much more.

    I have in fact seen all the evidence. It is the very evidence that the Rabbis who performed this Geirus claimed to have carefully reviewed and found that beyond a doubt Rachel(then Shannon) never to have had an illicit physical relation.

    What that means is that three very prominent Rabbis reviewed the evidence, audio and video and found it to be wanting or false. What is so hard to understand about that. Their very statement that they reviewed all the evidence and found absolutely no proof that Shannon was physically inovled with anyone, emphatically states that they do not believe this evidence to be true.

    That is three Kosher witnesses stating that it is not true.

    Furthermore they stated that this conclusion was one of the things that they based their decision to megayer her upon.

    As I have stated, I have seen all of the evidence. I have had it professionally confirmed for various Rabbanim. However, all of those Rabbanim have thrown out that evidence based on the halachic Eidus of these three Rabbis who claimed to have reviewed it, investigated it, and found that she never did the things that she was portrayed as having done in either the video or the audio.

    Don't stone the messenger, I am not the one who said it. I am just the one who is reporting the implications that it is having amongst the Gedolim that I know.

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  20. The rabbonim may have ruled that the woman is an anussah who was forced into znus with coercion and threats. This probably does not meet the criteria that invalidates a gerus because of consensual relations. I would have thought that mekubal is smart enough to figure that out.

    I only wish that that were the case. But that is not what they ruled. They have stated in multiple new sources what they have ruled. That after investigating all of the evidence, they found that Shannon never had an illicit physical relation. That is the start and the finish of the problem.

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  21. Even if she did those sex acts. You cannot make a judgement about them. She was being blackmailed emotionally on two issues.

    One over her conversion and more seriously the safety of her daughter. She was trying to do the right thing when she went to get the attention of other rabbonim.

    Rabbi Shternbauch is right. If the recordings were fraudulant Tropper would have come out swinging.

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  22. i hope mekubal is being well paid to be the "messenger" of such a nonsensical argument.

    the converting b"d has made no statements whatsoever about the validity of the recorded evidence. the fact of the conversion itself cannot be considered evidence, whether you hold it's a kosher b"d or not.

    mekubal has some reason for muddying the waters and i assume it will come out eventually. it certainly has nothing to do with t'shuva or any "apology".

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  23. Reading and debating Mekubal is like living inside a Salvador Dali painting.

    Whether or not Ms Ormond had a physical relationship with anyone is not the problem (and that works in favor of Tropper defenders. Given what we all have heard on the tapes that have been released, it is clear who initiated the problematic behaviors. That there are allegedly other tapes, seen only by a supposed select few, raises a whole set of other questions).

    It is the tape of Tropper's phone call that is the problem.

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  24. By the way, is there single documented instance of any Rav who has directly confirmed he has seen or heard any video tapes other than what was originally posted?

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  25. Let me try this one more time.

    Shanon Orand denies that a physical relationship of any kind ever took place.

    The B"D claims to have reviewed the evidence and found that a physical relationship of any kind never took place.

    The Video explicitly demonstrates said relationship.

    The audio explicitly references said relationship.

    That being said her statements and those of the B"D have nullified parts of the audios, and all of the video.

    From a halachic standpoint, what the Audios sound like, who seems to be initiating what simply does not matter. If part of that evidence has been nullified by her own testimony and the findings of a B"D, then you really cannot accept any of it.

    If part has been falsified, really there is nothing else to say if both she and the B"D say something which is explicit in the evidence never took place, then you can not trust any of it.

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  26. R' Eidenson,
    Ezekiel is a hater that likes to spread hate. period. nothing he said is anything but his sick imagination. lies w/o proof.
    This might help. Motzi shem rah which shocks many of us how you can allow this to go on on your blog?
    This might help:
    http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=15860

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  27. Eternal Jewish Cover UpJanuary 11, 2010 at 10:16 PM

    These are now rabbonim who seemingly will deny any and all evidence for whatever reasons.

    The same thing happened with the evidence against Mordechai Tendler even though most rabbonim sided with the evidence. Tropper's friend Nochum Eisenstein was in a state of denial as was a brilliant Monsey rosh yeshiva who knows all the teshuvos supporting the evidence. Perhaps his negios were too great as his parents are baalei teshuva who purportedly have Tendler connections.

    And there are rabbonim affiliated with Agudah, Satmar, etc who deny there is ever a case of child abuse despite the overwhelming evidence and the chiyuv to do something about it.

    It's time that the Chardal rabbonim take their heads out of the sand as well.

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  28. From the inside.
    Ornand was instructed to record evidence and was assured that by rabbis that everything would be confidential.
    Rabbis betrayed her and for poltical reasons released the tapes to 5 bloggers. One of the bloggers gave copies to two others.Note not all blogers used the tapes.
    The real issue here are the rabbis who were involved and I am not refring to the beit din that officated at her conversion.

    There have benen Orthodox Rabbis all over the world who have been invovled in this situation for awhile now.

    We should have rachmanut for Orand because she was used by Troper and other Orthodox Rabbis, organizations who used her to go after Troper.


    More of the story will come out in another blog.

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  29. "don't keep insisting that Rahel is the only victim, she is the only victim who has "gone public".

    This statement is a lie.
    she had no intention of going public.She was lied to by Rabbis who promised confidentiality.

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  30. Reductionist ThinkingJanuary 11, 2010 at 10:43 PM

    To summarize Mekubal: Res judicata.

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  31. " So when the B"D states that they reviewed the evidence and found that Ms Orand never had a physical relation with Tropper or his wife"

    Did they say this? When/where?

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  32. mekubal says "The audio explicitly references said relationship" that is absolutely not the case, the audio discusses the phone s-x that she admitted to in bais din any other reference might be asumed to of been physical, but in no way does it mean so specifically.
    saying "i want our relationship to be as it used to be" doesnt have to mean physical.
    saying "i liked it with leba" can mean i like going shopping with her..
    so in no way is there a discredit on the bais dins part of the audio, meaning in no way is tropper vindicated of the audio conversations, even if they were just that, arent those conversations and attempts more enough of an outcry, why would mekubal continue being apologetic to tropper, even if it was just phone s-x for crying out loud, halozeh yikareh rav beyisrael?
    so mekubal use your head be logical and stop saying "If part of that evidence has been nullified by her own testimony and the findings of a B"D, then you really cannot accept any of it".
    no part of any audio has been nullified!

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  33. Once again the deeper you go in this story the more the klipot attach to you. Mukubal is suffering from too deep anaylisis of the issues.( what good is it to be meyain in the details) Once again the issue is not what Ms.Orand may or may have not done. The issue is tropper manuveldica behaviour which are evidence of his thoughts, speech not being within the confines of normative Yisishkeit. (Not to mention the hirhurim that lead to shicvas zerah levatola ) I'm just waiting for someone to explain his behaviour as tikkunim on lost sparks explaining his Frankish behaviour.
    EJF was doing something unheard of in jewish history acctively chasing after goim and encouraging intermarrige under the auspacies of their krumer halacha.
    Topper was their leader and should have behaved in a way beyond reproach

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  34. Once again the deeper you go in this story the more the klipot attach to you. Mukubal is suffering from too deep anaylisis of the issues.( what good is it to be meyain in the details) Once again the issue is not what Ms.Orand may or may have not done. The issue is tropper manuveldica behaviour which are evidence of his thoughts, speech not being within the confines of normative Yisishkeit. (Not to mention the hirhurim that lead to shicvas zerah levatola ) I'm just waiting for someone to explain his behaviour as tikkunim on lost sparks explaining his Frankish behaviour.
    EJF was doing something unheard of in jewish history acctively chasing after goim and encouraging intermarrige under the auspacies of their krumer halacha.
    Topper was their leader and should have behaved in a way beyond reproach

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  35. Anonymous Clearly Thinking said...

    Someone needs to authenticate Mekubal.



    I have been thinking that for several months now.

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  36. Eternal Jewish Fraud Watch: "The rabbonim may have ruled that the woman is an anussah who was forced into znus with coercion and threats. This probably does not meet the criteria that invalidates a gerus because of consensual relations. I would have thought that mekubal is smart enough to figure that out."

    Rabbi Kenneth Brander, of Yeshiva University, on audio, describes a recent case (yutorah.org) in which an eishes ish commits adultery with a man who was supplying her with drugs. Her husband continued to love her, and after therapy, they wanted to remain married. Rabbi Brander asked Rav Schachter, who declined to answer, and recommended Rav Elyashiv. Rabbi Brander traveled to Israel to ask the sheila, and Rav Elyashiv paskened it is permissible.

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  37. What is with you people?!?!?! Can't you see HaMekubal's satire is playing you?!

    Of course the B"D never said anything other than "there was no reason NOT to convert her"!

    END OF STORY!!!

    HaMekubal is BRILLIANT and in his sarcastic way is making a mockery out of the B"D geirus!

    So let's all please stop with the mental mind meshugasin - and READ between the lines and understand what he is saying!

    He KNOWS Tropper is as guilty as Elozer ben Durdai(pre-teshuvah!;) HOWEVER he is fuming that this so-called Beit Din made her (sham? silly? inopportune? whatever!) conversion!!!

    IMHO THAT IS HIS REAL INTENTION HERE! PLEASE understand it and let's stop feeding the frenzy?

    Yasher Koach!

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  38. Hamekubal is claiming that the Beis Din who converted Shannon has thus vindicated Tropper. Besides for the hundreds of ways this logic is shoddy, one of the very Rabbis he is relying on to vindicate Tropper has said explicitly that Tropper is guilty. In fact, I found this fact in one of the links Hamekubal is providing to support his assertion:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1262339427029&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    =====
    "This is an answer to haredi rabbis' stringent approach to conversions," said Rabbi Israel Rosen, former head of the National Conversion Courts and a serving conversion court judge, who helped facilitate Orand's conversion.

    "Rabbi Tropper, who has been revealed for who he is, was seen with all the gdolim [great Torah sages of the generation]. It just goes to show that interested parties can manipulate the rabbis to consolidate power," Rosen said.

    Eliyahu said that his decision to convert Orand was motivated by a desire to "erase the desecration and the shame as quickly as possible."

    "When I heard about that terrible story, how a man exploited his connections with rabbis and his position as a representative of Judaism, I decided something had to be done to rectify the situation. It is the worse type of sin to do what he did, to use the sacred to obtain his own base desires. God hates iniquity and here he is committing iniquity by using God's name.

    "The only reason this woman was not converted to Judaism [before] was because she refused to give in to that man's sexual demands. I feel real pain in my heart. I knew that even one minute could not be wasted to end the desecration."
    ========

    In other words, one of the Rabbis involved in the conversion states that the VERY REASON they did the conversion was because they believed that TROPPER WAS GUILTY and out of sympathy for Shannon. Hamekubal is trying to portay is as exactly the opposite! HaMekubal is either playing a satire or is being threatened. This must be the case because the other option is that he has lost his marbles.

    ReplyDelete
  39. "You say this"

    Nachum Eisenstein was reported to say this. Mekubal took it from him. Putting things together, it could well be that Mekubal's "major Gadol" is Eisenstein.

    ReplyDelete
  40. They have stated in multiple new sources what they have ruled. That after investigating all of the evidence, they found that Shannon never had an illicit physical relation.

    Please point us to these sources.

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  41. Ok here is my recapitulation. First my apology was never anything more than a tongue in cheek satirical statement meant to draw attention to the actual problem that we have now been handed.

    There are essentially three categories of people. Tropper supporters, and I am sure that Tropper knows who they are. Troppers enemies and with this scandal all of them have come out of the shadows, so he now has the fortune of knowing exactly who was against him. Then there is the large middle ground of Rabbanim and Gedolim who have been trying to decide if this information was true or not.

    Which brings us to the issue at hand. Within halacha as within the secular legal system things are unfortunately not so much about the truth, as they are about what can be proven.

    The first thing that must be considered is the source of all of the evidence. What the Gedolim have recieved, and what was leaked to the blogs, has all come from the same source. A source known to be of considerable wealth, and known to have an animosity against Tropper. Said source was outed on this blog.

    Tropper has consistently stated that this was a frame up, and a forgery. Most Gedolim are relatively uninformed about what can and cannot be done with technical wizardry, and thus must rely upon experts to confirm or deny such claims. To date every confirmation has been done by people with some animosity toward Tropper. However, initially that did not matter. Technical wizards were saying that the information was true, so they began to plan their actions.

    In the meantime Shannon did an interview with Shamarya Rosenberg of Failed Messiah, in which she admitted to having a physical relationship with Tropper and his wife. An interview that was in fact picked up by the Jewish Week in New York.

    So far for evidence we have her statements given in interview cited above. The recordings which have been splashed all over the internet, and videos, which bloggers(including the blog owner of this blog) received a "tznua" version, while Rabbis received a "full version."

    Now comes the problem. A Rabbi Eliyahu(who is known to be funded by the same source and enemy of Tropper) decides to do a quickie conversion for Ms Orand, and to do so quite publicly. In the midst of that he makes statements that, As well as stating that she never had an illicit physical relation. In the same article she makes that claim as well.

    So Rabbanim and Gedolim are now confronted with her contradictory statements. She needs to be trusted in order to believe that any of it is true. However, if she keeps changing her statements it becomes increasingly difficult to believe her.

    Going on from there, you have her statement and that of the Rabbis saying that she never did, what she is depicted as doing in the video. Which resurrects Tropper's argument that it was all forgery. It does not help that the connection between Ms Orand and R' Eliyahu was made by the same Source/Enemy that Tropper is claiming is behind the frame up.

    What this has done, is given considerable reason to Gedolim to doubt the evidence. Granted only those who were ever on the fence are doubting, but in truth they are the ones that count. So R' Shternbuch and a few others that have been against Tropper from the beginning think(like I do) that he is guilty as sin... SO WHAT. They don't really matter, because they are minority that is easily shunt aside.

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  42. Nachum Eisenstein was reported to say this. Mekubal took it from him. Putting things together, it could well be that Mekubal's "major Gadol" is Eisenstein.

    I am Sephardi. Draw your conclusions from that.

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  43. Mekubal is lying and distorting about what is reported on the failedmessiah blog. Shmarya did NOT 'out' anyone. And he did NOT claim that the billionaire was the source of the tapes. Read CAREFULLY:

    "Although not the first person to do so ... [so-and-so] a billionaire former backer of EJF who has been in a long running dispute with Tropper, sent some of those tapes to FailedMessiah.com."

    He was not the first person to do so. Whoever sent out the tapes sent them to the billionaire, and the billionaire capitalized on the opportunity to send what HE had received to blogs that would publicize the info against his enemy. But the blogs had already received these tapes. And the billionaire is NOT the source of the tapes, certainly not from what is said there, and certainly not based on what Orand has said, what the Bet Din in Israel which converted her has said, nor based on anything else that has been reported.

    Will the lies stop now? Will the distortions stop?

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  44. Looks like Mekubal's second link doesn't exist.

    ReplyDelete
  45. No the problem was a broken html tag when I typed it out, so I will do so here without the html tag.

    It should have read,

    In the midst of that he makes statements that,"The only reason this woman was not converted to Judaism [before] was because she refused to give in to that man's sexual demands."
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1262339427029&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
    As well as stating that she never had an illicit physical relation. In the same article she makes that claim as well.http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/033/669.html?hp=1&loc=3&tmp=3413.
    So Rabbanim and Gedolim are now confronted with her contradictory statements. She needs to be trusted in order to believe that any of it is true. However, if she keeps changing her statements it becomes increasingly difficult to believe her.

    Going on from there, you have her statement and that of the Rabbis saying that she never did, what she is depicted as doing in the video. Which resurrects Tropper's argument that it was all forgery. It does not help that the connection between Ms Orand and R' Eliyahu was made by the same Source/Enemy that Tropper is claiming is behind the frame up.

    What this has done, is given considerable reason to Gedolim to doubt the evidence. Granted only those who were ever on the fence are doubting, but in truth they are the ones that count. So R' Shternbuch and a few others that have been against Tropper from the beginning think(like I do) that he is guilty as sin... SO WHAT. They don't really matter, because they are minority that is easily shunt aside.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Although not the first person to do so

    That line was not originally in his post, nor was it in the arcticle he did for the Jewishweek, where they used this same post, nearly line for line. He admits that in the comments. However the Jewishweek has removed the article from its server.

    I trust that local New Yorkers can still find the print edition at their local libraries, and see there.

    This is the joy of digital media. One can change the text whenever necessary or desirable. Hence the "Third Rabbi who wants to remain anonymous" though his name was originally part of the press release. See here for an example of how that was done. http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=15860

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  47. It is ironic that Mekubal places so much credibility on Shmarya Rosenberg.

    I believe Mekubal is the first charedi who has elevated Failed Messiah to an impartial, unquestioned kedusha-like status by way of some creative license on his part.

    Mekubal now has a vested interest in defending his previous statements. That said, I'd sooner consider the beis din who converted Ormond after speaking with her. It is appropriate they are the final arbiters of her convictions and behaviors.

    Unlike Mekubal, it seems that beis din didn't take Shmarya (or Mekubal) at face value. For some odd reason, they decided to speak with Shannon Ormond themselves.

    Of course, that should come as no surprise. Mekubal still insists we all owe Tropper an apology.

    ReplyDelete
  48. This would not be the first time that Mekubal states something that is not correct.

    He did so on his blog in the past.

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  49. Bemusedly ThinkingJanuary 12, 2010 at 5:04 PM

    Mekubal may be pointing a halachic problem with the evidence, but I think his campaign, if that's what it is, also point out how easily some people's perceptions of the tapes are changed when confronted with an inconvenient obstacle. Two weeks ago the tapes meant orgies bordering on rape. Some of the same people are now generating chakiras as to whether the tapes indicate a physical relationship or are nivul peh without a physical relationship, since the latter has not been negated by the bet din's psak. Obviously the conversation without more are very serious in this neck of the woods, but that's not the same as real sex with the satmar.

    BTW, as it has been insinuated by some anti-tropperites (oddly, considering the initial mazal tovs), the bet din's psak can be undermined by saying that it had no authority in the first place to do the conversion the way it was done. Hastily done, politically motivated, tainted with money, undermined her community rav, variously and et cetera. But of course that's exactly how tropper himself dealt with various batei din he disagreed with -- impugn, undermine, and refuse to recognize the validity. You'd have to marry tropper to divorce him.

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  50. Anonymous- you asked the very same 'million dollar question' on Harry Maryles blog. The answer as to why there haven't been other victims that have come forward is rather simple. I will answer you in the same way.

    This isn't your average scandal. This is about sex.

    To this day, there are victims of child abuse who have not come forward because of the hoops and derision they have to endure- and that speaks to those who are adults today. The more recent child victims do not need to be put on display for a whole lot of reasons, none of them good.

    I don't blame the past or present victims one bit for wanting to keep a low profile. They have suffered enough.

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  51. Mekubal himself alleged on his Blogspot that there was a "Prostitution ring". When confronted with the fact that the audio tapes did not provide enough evidence for this allegation, he wrote that HE was in possession of IRREFUTABLE proof that Tropper lead a prostitution ring, but that he did not want to publish his proof in order to protect victims.

    Then he said that Tropper was set up by a Billionare whose name he did not want published on his website (for fear of retaliation, I think).

    Then he went back to his prostitution ring theory.

    He also claimed that he had the audio tapes verified by (several) specialists who confirmed they were not fake.

    And then he published a statement that he believed that the whole story was not true and apologised.
    Then he said that the apology was "tongue in cheek".

    To sum up: mekubal is definitely not a reliable news source.

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  52. Growing up,

    Shmarya Rosenberg is a credentialed journalist, and the post of his that I referenced was used by a print news source in the US. Yes I believe that lends a level of credibility, as much as I would ascribe to any other journalist. Personally I don't think any journalist is impartial.

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  53. Liar,

    That is a good name Shoshi, I approve. However, even in the comments on my own blog, I said that my statement their was entirely satirical. You responded with a comment that I did not publish that I was being a hypocrite, to quote you:

    You say something that sounds nice while you really mean to say something ugly to someone else. That is basic hypocrisy. Speaking nicely to someone you really do not like.

    And you reconfirmed that you mean something ugly on Daas Torah blog:


    I have never claimed to be a news source. I have only ever claimed to be a person making his way through the Orthodox world, and blogging my observations. To that note I state clearly in the about me section of my blog and blogger profile:
    What follows are my observations on the world around me in an attempt to demystify the mystical and retain my sanity...

    Yes I do think that evidence is valid. Yes I do think that it shows and proves some very nasty things about R' Tropper. Yes I have had that evidence confirmed. So has another mutual acquaintance of the blog owner here and myself.

    The issue that I have been trying to point out here, is that the words and actions of the B"D in this case create a problematic halachic reality.

    I understand the difficulty that many people are having here. Ms Orand has been painted as a tragic hero. Everyone wants to see her have a happy ending, and are stunned into disbelief that in the process of giving her a merciful end to her trial, that something may have been done to aid R' Tropper. Unfortunately that is the way it is.

    Has no one wondered by any of the EJF affiliated Rabbis have not challenged her conversion? People who have been more than willing to declare even other Chareidi converts as possul geirus, who on much less evidence possuled thousands of conversions. Not one has said that this conversion, and the actions of this B"D are invalid. Even R' Eisenstein has hedged from stating those words. He has made claims of breach of normal ethics, and how it shows that city Rabbis shouldn't be involved in such things, but he never said her geirus wasn't valid. R' Wender, who has been repeatedly lambasted here and other places, who the Rabbis involved essentially accused of holding up her Geirus in defferance to R' Tropper when they said as reported in the Jpost, "The only reason this woman was not converted to Judaism [before] was because she refused to give in to that man's sexual demands." Make no mistake that is an attack on R' Wender, as he was the one overseeing her conversion. He did not rise up to defend himself. Rather his only statement on this matter has been that he accepts the conversion.

    The only reason I can see in this sudden about face in EJF from defending themselves against such accusations, and from fighting for their "higher standards" is that they know that this helps them.

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  54. Mekubal, you are venturing into an area that you frankly know nothing about.

    Many people would fall out of their chairs if they heard you call SHmarya (Scotty) Rosenberg a "journalist". You must be reading some of his self-delusions.

    Shmarya was a baal teshuva with the Chabad movement for 20 years who never really learned anything and cannot even make a leining in Mishna Brurah (or Tanya for that matter). He was put in cherem when he started publicly attacking the Lubavitcher Rebbe over his psak that money should be spent on other priorities before it goes to buy luxury apts for Falashas. For ultra-Liberals like Shmarya, the Rebbe had committed the Cardinal Sin by not putting Blacks first. In the past few years Shmarya has degenerated into attacking anyone in the orthodox spectrum and recently even the Conservative. Another underlying reason for his anger at the world is that his intense personality prevented him from finding his bashert which he instead blames on Yahadus.

    He does not attend any kind of synagogue services, even on Yom Kippur. At 51 years old, he sits 24/7 in his mother's basement digging up dirt and asking for handouts for Rubashkin trial travel expenses even though he never attended.

    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/01/09/us/09religion-190.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/01/09/us/09religion01.html

    He are pictures of him getting fat and pale in his dilapidated underground outpost.

    Most of the pieces that he writes are not touched by any media outlet. They politely tell him he is "too outspoken", a reference to the venom and lies that form his blog posts. Once in a while, the Jewish Week will publish one of his pieces when they have an axe to grind against someone but they leave his name off it and label it "staff writer".

    The only other place he is published is on other blogs, most notably that of David Kelsey, who bills himself as a Partziver chossid (related to Munkatch) who went off the derech.

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  55. Mekubal,

    You suggest that "only reason I can see in this sudden about face in EJF from defending themselves against such accusations, and from fighting for their "higher standards" is that they know that this helps them."


    There are other reasons too.

    a) The Israel bet Din phoned them first, and asked if there were any reasons not ot covnert her, and they said it is fine.

    b) The EJF train has come to its final stop. Their scam has been exposed. They based their marketing need on the fallacy of false Israeli conversions, a la Druckman.
    Since they have now been exposed as menuvalim, they are no longer able to make any credible claims. Who will take them seriously?

    This is evidenced by the silence amongst the whole Orthodox world. the Rabbanut of Israel, the Haredi Gedolim; The Sephardi gedolim. I cannot guarantee that the British Chief rabbi woudl accept Orand's conversion - but the entire Eisenstein-Sherman-Tropper scam (the axis of pashkEVIL) has now been smashed by the new (unspoken) alliance between the Dati Leumi, the Badatz, the RCA and the CER.

    Everyone knows that Tropper is Kol Yaakov Frank. Even R' Elyashiv and R Kanievsky shlita have realsied this, that is why they have not stepped in to defend him.

    Interestingly, on the 5 towns talkback, somebody said that R' Kreisworht had nothing to do with Eisentstein, and that Eisenstein is just using his good name to further his own political campaign.

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  56. Mekubal-

    Your reliance on Shmarya Rosenberg as being entirely credible speaks volumes.

    Given your righteous indignation an anyone who might maklign SR, I suppose we can all concur that you are in agreement with Shmarya's opinion of the charedi community and their rabbonim.

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  57. "That line was not originally in his post"


    The first time I read his post it was there, and I remember it well. That line stood out, and I wondered why he even mentioned the billionaire considering he wasn't the fisrt one to send the materials to him. I certainly read that post within the days (if not the day itself, I don't remember) it was put up, and not weeks later as we are doing now. So when do you claim that that info was not included? When did you first read it? Will Shmarya confirm?

    In any case, you quoted the article today, and today it is there. And that line changes everything and shows that the conclusion you made is completely wrong.

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  58. ""The only reason this woman was not converted to Judaism [before] was because she refused to give in to that man's sexual demands." Make no mistake that is an attack on R' Wender, as he was the one overseeing her conversion. He did not rise up to defend himself. Rather his only statement on this matter has been that he accepts the conversion. "

    When one knows they are guilty, their organization is guilty, and the proof exists that everyone knows about, there is no room for plausible deniability, and they concede to their guilt with silence.

    Wasn't that a similar point (or the same) as Rav Shternbuch's psak?

    You are inventing a warped reasoning to explain the very obvious silence as if it needs explaining (when it really doesn't), and as if there has to be some complicated reason why the silence occurs. By doing so you invented a tale that only a conspiracy theorist could come up with. Don't blame the rest of us for not jumping on board the kool-aid train and for instead going with the simpler, logical, hypothesis that requires no complicated pilpul or analyses but straight simple logic. The silence is admission. They know there is no "out" and no way to explain this away so they don't even try to defend it.

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  59. One thing I never understood why Mekubal was saying that Shannon should not be converted because she transgressed sexual improprieties that even gentiles are obligated to keep. In one comment he even said that it is Ye’areg vaak yaavor.

    She was gentile at that time, so how having sex (even consensual) with Tropper and other is arayios for her ? Worst for her can be znus.

    Even for Tropper it is no arayos and at best he chayav amlkus and at worst kares not not yeareg vaal yaavor.

    I am sure mekubal who is studying to be a dayan can shed light on it.

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  60. Monsey tzadik:
    "Even for Tropper it is no arayos and at best he chayav amlkus and at worst kares not not yeareg vaal yaavor."
    You are missing one possibilty - at least - as a rabbi, Rosh Yeshiva, and halachic board member of EJF, this l'chatchila a Hillul Hashem. ie he knew before gettign involved that it is a hillul Hashem - hence, it is Yehareg v'al Y'Avor. A Torah scholar should know this beforehand.

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  61. The poskim learn that even chibuk venishuk is yehurag veal yaavor. This is all the time. And during a horaas shaah, the rabbonim can be gozer even on histaklus like the story in the Gemara.

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  62. Archie Bunker said...

    The poskim learn that even chibuk venishuk is yehurag veal yaavor. This is all the time. And during a horaas shaah, the rabbonim can be gozer even on histaklus like the story in the Gemara.
    ===========
    citation please

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  63. "Even for Tropper it is no arayos and at best he chayav amlkus and at worst kares not not yeareg vaal yaavor."

    Thank you for clarifying that point. Although "Mekubal" loves to call himself "Rav" or "Rabbi", (or to hear others deferring to him with that title), I think that he is not a reliable source in halacha either.

    The overall impression I get is that he learned to throw around some terms and concepts, but that he is not yet experienced enough to apply them "cum grano salis".

    It is regerettable that he makes his first steps in this kind of public fora where there is very few control by rabbinic authorities (since they tend to shun internet). First and foremost, he risks to hurt people with unreflected statements (like the one about "Yaharog ve lo yaavor" in relation with rape), second some unsuspecting Amei Haaretz (like myself) could take what he says seriously and be hurt, and third he could give a very negative impression of Torah justice to anybody who happens to stumble on his comments.

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  64. The Chofetz Chaim's eidim Rav Zaks writes that in his sefer. I have not seen any other posek exclude chibuk venishuk from yehurag veal yaavor.

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  65. Usually "yehareg" but "yaharog" works too.

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  66. he poskim learn that even chibuk venishuk is yehurag veal yaavor.

    DT. It seems it is a fundamental dispute between the Rambam and the Ramban. The Ramban would disagree with you.


    ש"ך יורה דעה סימן קנז ס"ק י

    י רק לאו בעלמא כו' - דהא אמרינן בש"ס (ס"פ סורר ומורה) מעשה באדם אחד שנתן עיניו באשה אחת והעלה לבו טינא ואמרו הרופאים אין לו תקנה עד שתבעל לו אמרו חכמים ימות ואל תבעל לו תעמוד לפניו ערומה ימות ואל תעמוד לפניו ערומה תספר עמו מאחורי הגדר ימות כו' ובודאי שדברים אלו אינם ג"ע ממש אלא שעובר בהן בלא תקרבו לגלות ערוה שהוא לאו דג"ע כ"כ הר"ן פא"מ והנ"י ס"פ סורר ומורה ולפי זה משמע דס"ל כהרמב"ם בס' מנין המצות מצוה שנ"ג שכ' וז"ל הזהיר הכתוב מהקרב אל א' מהעריות ואפילו בלא ביאה כגון חיבוק ונישוק והדומה להם מן הפעולות הזרות והוא אמרו באזהרה מזה איש איש אל כל שאר בשרו לא תקרבו לגלות ערוה כו' וכ"כ הסמ"ג לאוין קכ"ו וכ"כ הרא"ה בספר החנוך מצוה קפ"ח והכתר תורה בלאוין שכ"ט אבל הרמב"ן בהשגות שלו על ספר מנין המצות חלק על הרמב"ם ואומר שאין מלקי' מן התורה אלא בביאה גמורה או בהעראה ע"ש שהאריך והרב ר"י ליאון בספר מגלת אסתר שלו דף קי"ח סתר כל דברי הרמב"ן והעלה כהרמב"ם ע"ש וכן נראה לי מהך עובדא דהעלה לבו טינא ומכל מקום משמע דאף הרמב"ם לא קאמר אלא כשעושה חיבוק ונישוק דרך חיבת ביאה שהרי מצינו בש"ס בכמה דוכתי שהאמוראים היו מחבקים ומנשקים לבנותיהם ואחיותיהם וכן כתב הר' יצחק ליאון שם בהדיא וכן משמע להדיא ממ"ש הרמב"ם ר"פ כ"א מהל' א"ב וז"ל כל הבא על העריות דרך אברים או שחבק ונשק דרך תאוה ונהנה בקירוב בשר ה"ז לוקה מן התורה כו' וכן כתב הסמ"ג והכתר תורה שם אלמא דאינו לוקה אלא בדרך תאוה וחיבת ביאה וזהו דלא כב"י לקמן ס"ס קצ"ה גבי מישוש הדפק באשתו נדה חולה, וכתבו עוד הרב המגיד שם והר"י ליאון דאף להרמב"ם ליכא מלקות בקריבה אלא בחייבי כריתות ולא בחייבי לאוין ומכל מקום משמע דבערוה דרבנן לכ"ע יעבור ואל יהרג ופשוט הוא וכן משמע בב"י שם:

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  67. So the Shach and Rav Zaks learn the halacha is like the Rambam. Do any Achronim hold like the Ramban? ANd you can bet that Tropper's chibuk venishuk was not in the derech of kedoshei elyon merely embracing their children.

    And according to the Gra, Tropper has a cheshbon for every single nekudah like each time he said "cutie pie" to a fremde woman.

    There is agav another machlokes Rambam & Ramban if just flirting with a woman is Derabbonon or Doraysah. And calling a shiksa cutie pie is the additional issur Doraysah of Lo Sechanem.

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  68. As I am a Am Haaretz, I experience some difficulty in reading this source. But according to what I understand, the case displayed here has nothing to do with rape.

    It is about a man who lusts a woman.

    So I do not see the connection to the case of a woman who is coerced into sex by a man stronger or more powerful than her.

    But perhaps it is in the part that I did not understand so well?
    So if

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  69. I was just checking the Rambam

    הלכות יסודי התורה פרק ה

    יב [ט] מי שנתן עיניו באישה וחלה ונטה למות, ואמרו הרופאים אין לו רפואה עד שתיבעל לו--אפילו הייתה פנויה, ואפילו לדבר עימו מאחורי הגדר--אין מורין לו בכך, וימות ולא יורו לו לדבר עימו מאחורי הגדר: שלא יהו בנות ישראל הפקר, ויבואו בדברים אלו לפרוץ בעריות.


    It does say שלא יהו בנות ישראל הפקר

    So, Tropepr coudl argue that she was not yet converted, hence this doesn't apply. And perhaps that is why he was eager to posul some conversions, so this would also not apply.

    ReplyDelete
  70. "Usually "yehareg" but "yaharog" works too."

    Thank you for pointing this out. Is this a Nifal to design a passive voice, meaning: He should be killed rather than transgress?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Eddie,

    You cannot be madayek like that in the Rambam. Considering what he holds about shiksa, it could be a kal vachomer from bnos Yisroel.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Considering what he holds about shiksa,

    Bunker,

    If you mean this Rambam (which in my opinion is one of the most disturbing things I ever read), I can tell you that Tropper holds from it, that probably can sheds light on his actions.

    אבל ישראל שבא על הגויה--בין קטנה בת שלוש שנים ויום אחד בין גדולה, בין פנויה בין אשת איש, ואפילו היה קטן בן תשע שנים ויום אחד--כיון שבא על הגויה בזדון, הרי זו נהרגת

    ReplyDelete
  73. So what is the Din for Phone sex?

    Can we learn from the source above that, at least according to some commentators, phone sex is not the same as sex with penetration?

    ReplyDelete
  74. After all this I have still not seen anything that supports the premise that the conversion of Orand is evidence that the tapes are forgeries.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Phone sex is very chamur and infringes on several issurei Doraysah as well as special judgements not found anywhere else.

    Hamenavel es piv, which means sexual innuendo as opposed to curse words, gets a lode of klalos as per the Gemara.

    R' Chaim Volozhin holds that machshava / dibur is worse than actually doing the etzem thing and is on par with Titus harasha being with the zona on the sefer Torah in the Kodesh Hakadashim.

    This is what scum of the Earth Tropper downplays as "immodest".

    I have heard it claimed that many men engage in phone sex simply as a medium to transgress in the cheit hasod, at the time they are on the phone. If you don't know what that is, please skim through Kitzur Shulchan Aruch until you find it because I will not be providing a detailed explanation of what that is.

    ReplyDelete
  76. The overall impression I get is that he learned to throw around some terms and concepts, but that he is not yet experienced enough to apply them "cum grano salis".

    The other name fit you better Shoshi. cum grano sali Latin for with a grain of salt. Definition: In common parlance, if something is to be taken with a grain of salt, it means that a copious measure of skepticism should be applied regarding a claim; that it should not be blindly accepted and believed without any doubt or reservation. According to the Oxford English Dictionary "to take 'it' with a grain of salt" means "to accept a thing less than fully". It dates this usage back to 1647. According to the The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, the phrase also means to "view a statement with a skeptical attitude. If you feel that this is how we are supposed to handle halacha, then the term Am Haaretz does not apply. You are obviously not within the fold of Orthodox Judaism.

    It is regerettable that he makes his first steps in this kind of public fora where there is very few control by rabbinic authorities (since they tend to shun internet). First and foremost, he risks to hurt people with unreflected statements (like the one about "Yaharog ve lo yaavor" in relation with rape), second some unsuspecting Amei Haaretz (like myself) could take what he says seriously and be hurt, and third he could give a very negative impression of Torah justice to anybody who happens to stumble on his comments.

    These are not my first steps. I do this mostly for entertainment.

    Concerning this specifically you have already attacked me on my own blog. But here you go again, once more the source from the Rambam Issurei Biah 18:7
    ז [ו] כל הנבעלת לאדם שעושה אותה זונה--בין באונס בין ברצון, בין בזדון בין בשגגה, בין כדרכה בין שלא כדרכה--משהערה בה, נפסלה משום זונה: ובלבד שתהיה בת שלוש שנים ויום אחד, ויהיה הבועל בן תשע שנים ויום אחד ומעלה.

    I also believe the Tur and thus Shulchan Aruch brings this in Even HaEzer 3... though I will have to check. My actual statement that a rape was a tragedy, and that if a raped woman was married to a Kohen he would be forced to divorce her(a travesty to be sure) because of her acquired status of a Zonah, unless certain pre-conditions were met, to show that she resisted to the pont of yehareg v'lo ya'avor. But as always Shoshi feel free to twist my words anyway that you see fit in order to attack me on as many forums as you wish.

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  77. Given the far-fetchedness of Mekubal's halachic justifications, I think that a more plausible (although cynical) reason the gedolim decided not to publicly denounce LT in light of Ms. Orand's conversion (as alleged by Mekubal) is be that they did not want to be seen as being in cahoots with the Religious Zionist camp.

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  78. One of your other comments pages in this blog lists a Kaplan foundation donation of 3.2 million to Beit-EL yeshiva affiliated with the rabbis who converted Ms. Orand. Evidently Guma pays ahead for favors, amazing! I am glad she charged full price for phone XXX or whatever she engaged in with the Tropper menagerie. Shame on all sides!

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  79. One of your other comments pages in this blog lists a Kaplan foundation donation of 3.2 million to Beit-EL yeshiva affiliated with the rabbis who converted Ms. Orand. Evidently Guma pays ahead for favors, amazing! I am glad she charged full price for phone XXX or whatever she engaged in with the Tropper menagerie. Shame on all sides!

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  80. Given the far-fetchedness of Mekubal's halachic justifications,

    You think that a person contradicting their own story through interviews and written statements and such is not possul eidus? That is far-fetched. Interesting!

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  81. Archie

    I know who and what Shamarya is. Being a credentialed journalist as a blogger is easy enough if you have enough daily hits, and no major complaints as to the accuracy of what you report as "news".

    However, what I thinks lends credibility to that one and only that one post of his, is that it was picked up by a print news source.

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  82. If having sex with a jew is an issur that would justify to deny a conversion, then it would be impossible to convert the non-jewish spouses of jews.

    However, as far as I see around me, it is a quite widespread practice.

    So why would another Din apply for Mrs. Orand, even if, for argument's sake, we suppose that she did have a physical relation with Tropper?

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  83. What does Bet-El Yeshiva have to do with Rabbi S Eliyahu or Rabbi Dov Lior?

    The conspiracy theorists really do not use logic.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Archie, Monsey

    Correct me if I am wrong, but Rambams says relations with a shiksa is a lav, and then he warns that it should not be taken lightly.
    What I quoted, he specifies applies to Bnot Yisrael. I then made some sarcastic comment about tropper.
    I thougth this particular Rambam would apply to the tropper case, but because it specifies Bnot Yisrael, then it doesn't match the specifics.
    However, that doesn't mean Rambam permits anything that Tropper did.

    There is another source, and I need some brainy guy to help me locate it. A Talmid hacham who has even a stain on his shirt, is Chayav Mitah - correct me if I am wrong, becasue of the Hillul HAShem involved. Now, try doing a Kal v'chomer on that, in troppers case!

    ReplyDelete
  85. Shabbos (114a) R. Hiyya b. Abba also said in R. Johanan's name: Any scholar upon whose garment a [grease] stain is found is worthy of death,4 for it is said, All they that hate me [mesanne'ai] love [merit] death:5 read not mesanne'ai but masni'ai [that make me hated, i.e., despised].6 Rabina said: This was stated about a thick patch.7 Yet they do not differ: one refers to the upper garment [coat], the other to a shirt.

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  86. What does Bet-El Yeshiva have to do with Rabbi S Eliyahu or Rabbi Dov Lior?

    The conspiracy theorists really do not use logic.


    I am certain that they are referring to the Yeshiva in Moshav Beit E-l. Which is a religious zionist org. However, I too do not see a direct connection.

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  87. If having sex with a jew is an issur that would justify to deny a conversion, then it would be impossible to convert the non-jewish spouses of jews.

    At some point during the conversion process the spouses are required to separate, here in Israel, typically for three months, at which point they are assumed to do Teshuva for the issur.

    Also as has been pointed out on this blog before through various Teshuvot of Gedolei Yisrael, the heter for doing such a conversion even under these circumstances, is that if we do not convert the non-Jewish spouse, they will continue the aveira.

    However, if they are married according to the laws of the non-Jews I am not sure if that is an issue for the non-Jewish spouse. At least not until the point where they begin to live as a Jew before their conversion.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Shockingly thinkingJanuary 13, 2010 at 2:33 PM

    Wait a second. When were the charges downgraded from first degree znus to nivul peh? Did LT reach a plea deal with the anti-tropperites?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Mekubal: When I stated my question and comment, I knew (and still do know) what Beit El Yeshiva is. I never asked what it was.

    Perhaps I should ask again, What does Bet El yeshiva have to do with Rabbi S Eliyahu and Rabbi Dov Lior.
    (I also am aware of who those 2 rabbis are).

    Conclusion: The conspiracy theorists really do not use logic.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Also, since when is a yeshiva considered an "org," or organization?

    Is the Mir yeshiva called a "haredi organization" ? Do you refer to Hevron Yeshiva as an ultra-orthodox organization?

    Let us all drop the silly insinuations and wacked out theories.

    ReplyDelete
  91. To why? and the Monsey Tzadik

    I think you have to look at what the Rambam is saying in context. That means reading the entire chapter through a few times. Due to Rambam's ultra-compact writing style you really can't take a single sentence out of context. Also, according to Yemenite Jews I've spoken with who are experts in MT and were close to R. Kappach - all commentaries on the MT are suspect and you can only really rely on the MT to comment on the MT. It was written to be self contained and not require reference to any other work in order to understand it ( other than the Torah itself ).

    First, I-NATCH - I'm Not A Talmid CHacham, this is just my limited personal understanding.

    I'm not dealing with the Chillul HaShem issue here.

    What is the issur? In the MT it is listed that there is a Torah Prohibition of marrying a gentile and having relations with that gentile in the context of marriage. This issur is in the category of gilu'i arayot - however it is chayav malkot instead of chayav mitah. There is no Torah issur on having relations with a goyah biz'nut -

    וְלֹא אָסְרָה תּוֹרָה, אֵלָא דֶּרֶךְ חַתְנוּת.

    However there is a rabbinic prohibition on relations with a goyah bi'znut ( outside marriage ). A person who is over this is chayav makat mardoot.

    This Rabbinic issur would be the issur of LT's transgression ( in addition to others ). As far as I can tell the goyah would not have transgressed any issur - so far: more on this further down.

    There is a special case associated with this prohibition: If a קַּנַּאי catches them in the act in front of 10 Jews he may kill the man, but only immediately and only as long as intercourse is ongoing. It seems that this only applies if the woman is an ovedet avoda zarah:

    וְהַבָּא עַל בַּת גֵּר תּוֹשָׁב, אֵין הַקַּנָּאִין פּוֹגְעִים בּוֹ; אֲבָל מַכִּין אוֹתוֹ מַכַּת מַרְדּוּת

    which would make sense since Zimri's act was done in the context of avodah zarah. He had to bow down to the woman's idol before he could have relations with her ( AFAIK ), which IIRC was the modus operandi of the Baal Peyor incident. The primary issue wasn't the relations with the goyah women, it was the avodah zarah that was involved.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Continued:

    Now the Monsey Tzadik quotes:

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/5112n.htm#8

    ח [ט] גּוֹי הַבָּא עַל בַּת יִשְׂרָאֵל--אִם אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ הִיא, נֶהְרָג עָלֶיהָ; וְאִם פְּנוּיָה הִיא, אֵינוּ נֶהְרָג. [י] אֲבָל יִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁבָּא עַל הַגּוֹיָה--בֵּין קְטַנָּה בַּת שָׁלוֹשׁ שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד בֵּין גְּדוֹלָה, בֵּין פְּנוּיָה בֵּין אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ, וְאַפִלּוּ הָיָה קָטָן בֶּן תֵּשַׁע שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד--כֵּיוָן שֶׁבָּא עַל הַגּוֹיָה בְּזָדוֹן, הֲרֵי זוֹ נֶהְרֶגֶת: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁבָּאת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל תַּקְלָה עַל יָדֶיהָ, כַּבְּהֵמָה. וְדָבָר זֶה מְפֹרָשׁ בַּתּוֹרָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "הֵן הֵנָּה הָיוּ לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל . . . וְכָל-אִשָּׁה, יֹדַעַת אִישׁ לְמִשְׁכַּב זָכָר--הֲרֹגוּ" (במדבר לא,טז-יז).

    There is a real kashya here for me ( and for others too I would assume ). It seems that some people interpret the above in a very general and inclusive way. If that's the case then as "why?" says, how could any woman from an intermarried couple ever convert?

    Based on the law regarding the קנאי and the Torah verses explicitly referenced by Rambam in the same paragraph I believe one possible legitimate interpretation is that the above only applies to a goyah ovedet avodah zarah who is using intercourse to get a Jew to do avoda zarah.

    So SO could have had relations with LT without her having any guilt from a arayot perspective. Even if she had married LT, she could legitimately claim that it was b'shogeg and so could any other goyah. Thus nothing would prevent her, or other goyah women not involved in tempting their Jewish husbands to avoda zarah from converting.

    Just my personal thoughts.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Continued:

    Now the Monsey Tzadik quotes:

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/5112n.htm#8

    ח [ט] גּוֹי הַבָּא עַל בַּת יִשְׂרָאֵל--אִם אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ הִיא, נֶהְרָג עָלֶיהָ; וְאִם פְּנוּיָה הִיא, אֵינוּ נֶהְרָג. [י] אֲבָל יִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁבָּא עַל הַגּוֹיָה--בֵּין קְטַנָּה בַּת שָׁלוֹשׁ שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד בֵּין גְּדוֹלָה, בֵּין פְּנוּיָה בֵּין אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ, וְאַפִלּוּ הָיָה קָטָן בֶּן תֵּשַׁע שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד--כֵּיוָן שֶׁבָּא עַל הַגּוֹיָה בְּזָדוֹן, הֲרֵי זוֹ נֶהְרֶגֶת: מִפְּנֵי שֶׁבָּאת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל תַּקְלָה עַל יָדֶיהָ, כַּבְּהֵמָה. וְדָבָר זֶה מְפֹרָשׁ בַּתּוֹרָה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "הֵן הֵנָּה הָיוּ לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל . . . וְכָל-אִשָּׁה, יֹדַעַת אִישׁ לְמִשְׁכַּב זָכָר--הֲרֹגוּ" (במדבר לא,טז-יז).

    There is a real kashya here for me ( and for others too I would assume ). It seems that some people interpret the above in a very general and inclusive way. If that's the case then as "why?" says, how could any woman from an intermarried couple ever convert?

    Based on the law regarding the קנאי and the Torah verses explicitly referenced by Rambam in the same paragraph I believe one possible legitimate interpretation is that the above only applies to a goyah ovedet avodah zarah who is using intercourse to get a Jew to do avoda zarah.

    So SO could have had relations with LT without her having any guilt from a arayot perspective. Even if she had married LT, she could legitimately claim that it was b'shogeg and so could any other goyah. Thus nothing would prevent her, or other goyah women not involved in tempting their Jewish husbands to avoda zarah from converting.

    Just my personal thoughts.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Mekubal, you are still giving SHmarya way too much credit.

    Shmarya is a pathetic rodef kavod who is constantly trying to get his by-lines in newspapers. The only person that will even take a phone call from him is the shady publisher of Jewish Week, Gary Rosenblatt, and even Rosenblatt just uses him and refuses to let his name appear anywhere on his pages.

    First some background on Rosenblatt. He is a supporter of Emmanuel Rackman's bittul kiddushin and ran puff pieces on Rackman for years. When he had a score to settle with the OU, he outed child molester Baruch Lanner, leading to his arrest, but refuses to expose most other child abusers. He was even taking paid ads from the Agudah, written by Marvin Schick, that propagandized there is no child abuse problem. These paid ads were disguised as op-eds or articles which goes against every rule in journalism.

    Shmarya's information on Tropper was hardly exclusive and could have come from anywhere but Shmarya strategically sent it to Rosenblatt immediately. And it was very amusing to watch SHmarya throw a public tantrum against Rosenblatt for eliminating his by-line at the last minute with an excuse and SHmarya's public warning to Rosenblatt that he had better pay him.

    Shmarya is nothing but a sick man obsessed with kavod and increasing his credibility to be able to attack Judaism.

    Calling him a journalist in any way, shape or form is nothing short of ludicrous. You say he gets many hits? Look at the rag tag mob that forms his readership. A long line of former orthodox Jews with almost as much hatred and rabbis from the Conservative, UTJ and YCT who cheer on his attacks on "stupid Haredim".

    ReplyDelete
  95. Archie ,

    why is it OK for Sherman to mevatel Kiddushin (for the purpose of receivng EJF/tropper monies), but not for Emanuel Rackman z.l. to do it for the purpose of freeing agunot? (not that I advocate his Bet Din) - but you are making arguments by association. Jewish Week knows Rackman, Rackman freed agunot, hence Shemariya is treif. If this line of argument is valid, then everyone is treif. You name me anybody, and at some point they knew someone who knew someone else who did something wrong.

    Plus, you should not read any newspaper, do you think the Times or Newsweek editors are all tzadikkim gemurim?

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  96. Sherman does not really belong in this argument but he would only have the right to invalidate gerus where we know for certain there was never kabolas mitzvos. Rackman was creating mamzerim which is a bigger problem.

    My point is that Mekubal gives credence to Shmarya based on Rosenblatt which is a joke for several reasons. One reason is that Jewish Week is not even a serious newspaper.

    ReplyDelete
  97. The Tablet has also now picked up and quoted the piece that I did, see newer post above.

    Note also there that an Enemy of Tropper admitted to sending the tapes around,
    In a phone conversation with Tablet Magazine, ****** initially said he forwarded the audio “to some people because I thought they were funny,” but subsequently said he only sent the recordings in response to a request from Rosenberg. “There’s no such thing as revenge,” ****** said. “It’s just exposing the truth.”

    Yes I know, that it is still unclear, even despite this statement, if the tapes and such originated with this enemy. However, what is clear, is that such ill conceived statements only help Tropper in the long run.

    The unfortunate outcome of such statements, this latest as well as those previously made by Ms. Orand and the Beit Din, is that people are starting to doubt the evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  98. No person in his right mind "doubts the evidence." It is only that mekubal is trying to seed doubts and trying to influence other people to doubt the evidence like he does, or pretends to, or does-only-tongue-and-cheek or whatever his actual position is. There is a lot of obfuscation going on here, but there has not been any indication whatsoever in any source that has been published, including statements of Orand herself and the bet din that converted her, of anyone claiming that the 'rich enemy' was the source of the tapes.

    For some reason mekubal you want people to think that anyway? Why?

    ReplyDelete
  99. " forwarded the audio “to some people because I thought they were funny,” "

    FORWARDED the audio. Forwarded means that he received them from someone else and sent them on to more people. Let's be clear about what we are reading.

    Mekubal is trying to create ex nihilo to pin the tapes on a certain person, and this is not the first time you have tried this here.

    ReplyDelete
  100. I wonder what became of the alleged "prostitution ring" that Mekubal trumpeted out here:

    "Then today I received audio and video footage that incontrovertibly establishes that a certain Kiruv and Geirut Rav that many(if not all) of these individual Rabbanim support has been essentially running a prostitution ring, and involved in other perversions. What is more he has been coercing his conversion candidates into being his call girls."

    http://hamekubal.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00%2B02%3A00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00%3A00%3A00%2B02%3A00&max-results=50

    ReplyDelete
  101. Archie Bunker said...

    Sherman does not really belong in this argument ..
    ---------
    Sure he does, it is free association :) I don't know if there is a godo argument to defend the Rackman annulments, and it's not the ikkar of this discussion. But as i pointed out earlier, Sherman simply annuls all geirus because of how he feels on that day. He tells married women they don't need gets, becasue of the kippa the Druckman wears. That is more cynical even than Rackman's court - Rackman found all kinds of halachic sources,not just R Feinsteins. So Sherman is telling women who are married they dont need a get, becasue he doesnt like their conversions. How many mamzerim will come out of this? Sherman is part of the EJF machinery, and the whole "doubt" of the Druckman conversions was created in order to mass market the EJF ones. It's a bit like matzot - Aviv matzo is labelled safek chometz, so that they can sell their own tasteless shemura mazos for 10x the price.

    There are a lot of blogs out there, and one I dont bother much on UOJ, altho it is quite funny sometimes.

    I am not defending mekubal, and it is self evident that everyone knows tropper is a rat. Nobody is defending him ( mayeb 2 of his 15 students are)- the Gedolim are embarrased to give him any more haskomos.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Eddie:
    . But as i pointed out earlier, Sherman simply annuls all geirus because of how he feels on that day. He tells married women they don't need gets, becasue of the kippa the Druckman wears.
    =================
    This is simply false. Rav Moshe Feinstein said the same thing as well as others such as Rav Chaim Ozer...

    The major difference is the number of conversion that are now in doubt.

    But a person who shows by his actions that he never intended to keep mitzvos was never a valid convert.

    What is your basis for claim that Rav Sherman is part of EJF mechanism?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Daas Toirah,

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212659722874&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

    “The upshot of Sherman's document was that the validity of all the conversions performed by Druckman and other religious Zionist judges was questioned”

    ie not on any halachic case by case basis, but anything to do with Druckman is invalidated.


    “Rav Moshe Feinstein said the same thing as well as others such as Rav Chaim Ozer...”
    Pity, why didn’t Rav Goren quote them when he posulled the Borokovsky conversion?

    Here, Rav Adlerstein clarifies R Moshe Feinstein’s position, and points fun at how sloppy Sherman was – even though he is not in the Druckman camp himself.

    http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/16/the-conversion-progress-report/



    Also,
    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=17695

    Rav Druckman’s response, saying that he only covnerts those whose intention it is to keep the Torah . (what they do later doesn’t invalidate retroactively).



    Sherman at EJF conference :
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093860.html

    “Sherman spoke at the conference at length on the ultra-Orthodox view on..”

    Same conference boycotted by Rav Amar.


    I hope I have answered all your questions.

    ReplyDelete
  104. hope I have answered all your questions.
    ======================
    The articles you cited do not support your slanderous summary. In fact The following from R' Adlerstein's article shows how far your assessment is from reality.

    Rabbi Druckman's supporters have not responded to a single one of Rabbi Sherman's charges in halachic language. They have thus added fuel to the fire of those who believe that the DL camp is incapable of dealing responsibly with sophisticated Torah thinking. Rabbi Sherman may or may not be right, but he raises important issues. Rav Druckman, to the best of my knowledge, is a fine gentleman, but not one of the halachic luminaries of the DL world. Professional politicians and MK's – of any religious party – rarely are. The DL world suffers from no shortage of real bnei Torah and a group of authentic poskim who could and should be dealing with Rabbi Sherman's point in halachic language.

    ==================
    The essence of the problem is the large number of people involved. There is absolutely no question that it is normative halacha that no conversion takes place without acceptance of mitzvos. Even the religious zionists agree to this.

    There is also no question that Rav Druckman's court were given an agenda by Ariel Sharon to mass convert. In addition Rav Druckman's court admitted that the majority of their converts do no keep Shabbos. Thus while it is true he asks them to keep mitzvos - he should have been aware that most of them were not sincere in saying that they would.

    Thus when Rav Sherman said the validity of the conversions were in doubt - it was not an arbitrary act as you assert.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Rav Adlerstein tries to remain impartial - but you only quote him on Druckman but not on Sherman (which is what I was quoting).

    Which is the slander exactly? You asked me to provide evidence that he was connected to the EJF, which I did. So were u knowingly asking me to slander him by placing him at an EJF conference? You are happy to Qoute Adlerstein bemoaning the lack of Zionist responsa against Sherman (and there are quite a few floating around), but ignore Adlerstein's own critique of Sherman's interpretation of halachah. I am not criticising you personally, but trying to atatck this problem "objecively" - which is impossible, because we are both memebers of ideologically opposed groups.

    The argument you bring is quite circular, as is Shermans. And it is also selective. Yours and Shermans arguemnt is like this:

    Some Russian Olim pretend to be frum, but either only stay at it for a while, or they never even start once they leave the mikveh.
    Altho Druckman has a good heart, because he converted some who turn out ot be bad eggs, then his good eggs are also treif.


    The fallacy in this line of argument can go against you as well.

    Gadol B'Torah X [Haredi + Litvish] has some bad eggs, eg Tropper, EJF etc.
    Since the Gadol X knew what was going on (before December 17th) , the all his eggs are treif, even the good ones.

    That is essentially what Shermanis saying, and you concur.

    Now, find me one Gadol who doesnt have some bad eggs in his basket.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Eddie wrote:

    Sherman is part of the EJF machinery

    DT: The only evidence you brought was that he spoke at an EJF conference. Your statement is an irresponsible distortion of that fact.

    Eddie wrote:
    Some Russian Olim pretend to be frum, but either only stay at it for a while, or they never even start once they leave the mikveh.
    Altho Druckman has a good heart, because he converted some who turn out ot be bad eggs, then his good eggs are also treif.

    DT: You are setting up a strawman. If in fact there were "some who turn out" It is not some - even Druckman admit. Most are not observant after conversion. The criticism was that R Druckman was insisting only that they say they were accepting - there was no concern for the likelihood that they were sincere. Thus taking a polictical mandate to convert a large mass. Being warned that the lack of concern for the sincereity of the converts and the accepted fact that most are not observant raises the question of the validity of these converts.

    It was not arbitary, it is not unprecedent, it represents the normative view of halacha accepted by both camps. the fact that there are opinions such as R Uziel that don't require mitzvos been rejectted by the Modern Orthodox as well as the Chareidim. There is an article in Tradition form the 1970's written by R Riskin in which he strongly criticizes those who are not concerned with the acceptance of mitzvos in converstion.

    Your ridicule and contempt for Rav Sherman is not justified by either the halacha or by the articles you cited.

    ReplyDelete
  107. someone earlier posted, that tropper spoke with two sides from his mouth, to the gedolim he spoke about strengthening the geyrus versus the modern orth..
    to kaplan he spoke about furthering his dream of trying to convert as many intermarried couples as possible..
    this in itself is an easy way for the rosh yeshivas etc to get out of this mess, besides by just being silent, they can say we were fed the wrong propoganda, but now after research the truth has been revealed about the indivudual and the organization.
    shalom al yisroel, veyodeinu lo shofcho, thereby they removed themselves and the same time condemmed that which was injust.
    obviously they ghave a problem just condeming being that it might appear as implicating themselves with it, however this way they can have it both ways, and especially being that this is the truth, most attenddess and rosh yeshivas had no idea, and actually thought it was a fight against the m.o, but the truth was just the opposite a fullfilment of a kaplan dream to kasher intermarriage, something that he felt passionately about do to his owmn lifestyle.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Eddie might be influenced by the lowlife serpent Shmarya who has been on a binge to demonize Rav Elyashev by smearing anyone even remotely connected to him. Rav Sherman has been one of Shmarya's targets.

    Shmarya's goal is to discredit Judaism by striking at the head and to push for acceptance of goyim who do not accept mitzvos in order to weaken the Jewish nation.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Oh look, everything is ok now because of 'anonymous' comment at 3:42, we see that the shenanigans of EJF and the support of gedolim for EJF and its krum operations is all ok because the kavana was for a "fight against the MO." So it was all 'lashem shamayim' afterall because if you are in a "fight against the MO" anything goes, including annulling halacha and including enlisting a sexually deviant mafia extortionist as the commander of the fight.

    Why with all of klal Yisrael's problems and needs should the main focus be a fight with the MO? Why is that even a goal? Why is it even relevant?

    Do people who make such comments really take what they are saying seriously? The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Let us be as fair as we can - are the "EJF Conversions" any more kosher than the Druckman ones? It seems that they are more fradulent than Druckmans, and that those within EJF are aware it is all a sham.
    So, why have the most respectable Gedolim (which give their approval to EJF, even today) go double standards, ie all of Druckamn's converts are goyim under false pretences, but all of the EJf converts are tzadikkim gemurim, and Jewish in every respect.

    ReplyDelete
  111. I don't know whether to laugh or cry with this one: You can stiull see the archvied blog of Mr tropper, by clickin go "cached" in a search.
    Here is a qn and answer of his:

    Question:

    Is there another blog called “daattorah” that seems to continuously focus on attacking the Eternal Jewish Family (which has the backing of 55+ gedolim)?

    Answer:


    It is difficult for me to respond to a blog that I’m totally unfamiliar with. I know of the blog author, however it is clear to me and many others that the word, “Daas Torah” is not applicable when there are all kinds inaccurate stories.




    OK, so if he had backing of 100 or 1000 gedolim, would that change 1 iota of what he did? Not according to R' Chaim Volozhiner!

    ReplyDelete

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