Thursday, November 7, 2013

Weiss-Dodelson : R' Avraham Meir Weiss had already agreed to binding arbitration back in May 2013

I was asked to print this letter today written by Rav Dovid Feinstein - the son of Rav Reuven Feinstein. It is important to be aware that Gital's husband - Rabbi Avraham Meir Weiss - had in fact agreed to binding arbitration with the widely respected askan - Rabbi Ronald Greenwald back in May 2013. It is not clear why Gital Dodelson thought it necessary to give the interview to the  New York Post telling the whole world that she was an Aguna chained to a failed marriage by her husband and Torah - and that only public outrage would free her. It is odd that she failed to mention that she had unilaterally abandoned binding arbitration which her husband had already agreed to in writing.

 She concluded the NY Post article with the following:
It’s an insulated community. It takes a strong push to step out beyond that. This step I’m taking is difficult but necessary. I’ve decided to go public with my story after exhausting every other possible means. the Orthodox are fiercely private, but I am willing to air my dirty laundry if it means I can finally get on with my life.
Avrohom, if you’re reading this, this is my last bid: Let’s both move on with our lives. Let us focus on Aryeh and our future, instead of being stuck in the past.
I think that all reasonable people will agree with the sentiment that are expressed in this letter. If Gital really wants a Get - it is clearly available - but only through good faith negotiations.

107 comments:

  1. YUP; As my son a Rav in Eretz Yisroel told me yesterday,"mommy, you don't know the other side of the story"...what a Chilul Hashem of the highest accord this woman caused, by involving people whose views & values are antithecal to ours, with their stupid suggestions, to chalila "leave the religion"...she should have known as a law student that this may backfire on her..glad the other side gave this window for all those who quickly commented against him....Hatzlocho.

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    1. I agree. I don't understand this warpath Gitti Dodelson is engaging in, with the end so close at hand and the matter near to being resolved.

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    2. CONFUSED BOY O BOY CONFUSED NOT STAMNovember 7, 2013 at 7:38 PM

      Yoish! What a Rashanta!

      And then I read James' comment "Weiss was the first to go to court and lost."

      Oy Vay Izmir! What a Rosho - a Shylock! She's nebach a Tzadeikes suffering for Klal Yisroel!

      Then I read more comments - Some like this and some like that, Could you imagine?!?!
      No orthodox Jew would deliberately lie, because that's a sin, some I'm soooooo confused! Hashem help me!

      On the one hand there's a mitzva of not standing idly by the blood of your brother. But on the other hand there's also a mitzva of not standing idly by the blood of your sister.

      The truth is this conversation is a great opportunity for all of us to do sooooo many mitzvos!

      But I'm just still confused.

      Does anyone have a tylenol?

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    3. Zay Nisht Azoy CONFUSEDNovember 7, 2013 at 8:12 PM

      @CONFUSED BOY O BOY CONFUSED NOT STAM
      Are you making letzanus? And noch about such a vichtige zach? Do you think were all a bunch of laydigayers? We're bahandling this very important issue which avadeh needs to be bahandeled. I spent 4 hours in the mikveh this morning bahandling and bahandlind, and I missed zman tfillah and I'm not even chassidish! I also spent lots of time on this blog with the inyan. I missed work today for this. Lmayse it's not so geferlich cause I'm unemloyed so I'm learning today. All the people who spend hours on this blog and in other ways bahandling the inyan are for sure getting gevaldigeh Olam Haboh.

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    4. There is nothing to "arbitrate" or "negotiate" here. A get is NOT up for arbitration or negotiations. And by the way, Avraham and Gittel have been divorced over a year now-this means the terms of the divorce have been settled, so there are NO outstanding terms left to be "arbitrated". So this bid for arbitration makes no sense.

      This letter from R. Feinstein (Avroham Weiss' relative, coincidentally) demonstrates that the Weisses are using the get as leverage to extort something they are not entitled to. And under the guise of "das torah" nonetheless. Let's be clear, the Torah NEVER endorses extortion, causing pain to a fellow yid, or get denial. So why does R. Feinstein endorse it? Shame on the Weisses and on everyone supporting get denial. You clearly do not know the pain of an agunah.

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    5. Yes, I agree with Naomi. If the Weiss's need to negotiate or arbitrate, then let them do it after Avrohom gives the get.

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  2. It is one thing to discuss issues of Gettin, Agunot, and Get meusa in the abstract. I have sometimes commented in this vein.

    It is quite another to comment and try to pass judgement on specific cases based on the competing one-sided stories that circulate on the web and in the press. Even when one sees both parties' one-sided versions, as in the recent series about this case, it doesn't really give a good picture. I urge Rabbi Eidensohn to refrain from publishing material about specific cases and comments attacking either party in these difficult circumstances. Judging these cases is difficult enough for dayanim in the specific case; it is impossible for those of us commenting on the web.

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    1. Mike S. it is nice to live in a bubble discussing theoretical issues. But there is also a mitzva of not standing idly by the blood of your brother. In both the Epstein and Dodelson case - widespread publicity involving even the secular media have been widely used against the husband. I have attempted to level the playing field in terms of facts as well as presenting the halachic issues. If both parties kept the issues private and resolved it with beis din there would be no need or justification for me to public specific facts. Unfortunately that is not how things work anymore.

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    2. Es lehashlich avanim v-es knois avanimNovember 7, 2013 at 4:57 PM

      Especially if you live in a glass house, it might also boomerang. As the saying goes, a half a picture is worth more than a thousand lies. So now we know the rest of the story. Kudos to Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn! The shulchan aruch says, if someone is bashing the other in public, and the bashee mums, that is so that people should know that kol haposel bemuno hu posel, and the other is godol schoro minsso. He is min haneelovim veinom olvim, and is a big tzadik, and worth while to seek from him a bracha!
      It is known that most stories floating around by a Get are only to advance their own agenda, and is better to be left for The Beth Din to handle and not by PR, or by Grand Butcher m epstein's and his goon squad, let alone self proclaimed ORA LAGOYIM yimach shemam vezichrom. This ORA & Co. that teamed up in cahoots with the Electrocutioner, no one should give A RED CENT, and please spread the word, they are a Yeravam ben nevat & Korach veEdoso. As the good book says: Velo lechinam halach hazarzir etzel haorev, elo mipnei shehi minoi, an of toref vedoress. Velo ora hu elo mevi harbeh choshech veafelo laolam. It would be interesting to know the other side of the kotle konye story as to why he HIMSELF hasn't used the services of MR. KOTLE Kanye EPSTEIN'S MAGIC WAND. It works wonders. And let me teach you one more thing, lo zu haderech velo zu hair, if you know what's good for you. And Oh' yes! Before I forget, one that takes herself for a lawyer, is taking a fool. Veoni tfila, may haShem enlighten us all to see the truth, beli shim tzaar veyagon, vehakol yavo al mekomo beshalom, amen.

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    3. Rabbi Eidensohn: To avoid "lo ta'amod" you have to be able to tell who is the nirdaf and who is the rodef, which I contend is impossible to do by reading competing one sided stories on the web. Look at the lashon horah against both sides in your comments section; what value does it serve?

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  3. She opened up a pandoras box; considering she's a law student, she's not very bright, knowing that the whole truth may come out....of course no one knows enough to even comment, but unfortunately she took this to a menuval news media...she's her own worst enemy. & no, I don't know either party involved. Hatzlocho.

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    1. Chavatzelet haSharon, how right u rNovember 7, 2013 at 6:50 PM

      It is the wisest man of all, that said, Sof davar hakol nishma, es Elokim yereh ve'es mitzvosov shmor, ki ze kol hodom... ! Menuval newspaper is yet a compliment. They spill yiddish blit all over the place to gain an upper hand, let the World know ein kocham ele befeh, feh feh alehem, hayadayim yedei eisav, upiha kefi sachro upi Bilam ben beor, Kol dmei achenu tzoakin elenu min haadama. Vehoeloikm yevakesh et haNirdaf. How much more blood will they spill before they disappear from the face of the earth. Mitaber al riv lo loi, rasha lama sakeh reacha. Yamter H' al reshaim esh vegofrit veruach zilafot menos koisom. I know neither of them, However, his peace speaks louder than words. May she also find peace within herself, and Justice will reign, Venos yagon vaanocho.

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  4. The very threat of withholding a Get is such an awful thing to do. I'm sure the respected Rabbi is attempting to bring this embarrassing case to a close but his last sentence, stipulating that a Get is available but only on certain conditions, is a show of support to using the Get as a tactic and as leverage. By writing these lines the Rabbi is perpetuating women's inferiority in Judaism and is sanctioning using religion as a weapon to torture other people and for the he should be ashamed of himself and quite frankly, notwithstanding any knowledge he has acquired over the years and respected he has commanded from his students- he should be stripped of his authority as Rabbi. This brings nothing but Chilul Hashem, which as the Rabbi may recall cannot be repented for in this world or the next. Domestic disputes are not uncommon unfortunately, so just send them to court and have a judge find a solution which balances all interests. Don't support some scumbag who clearly has no respect for woman, other people in general and definitely not his religion. What an awful world to be a part of. Let's hope the Rabbis here in Israel have a little more common sense than you clowns.

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    1. stating the obviousNovember 7, 2013 at 7:01 PM

      As the saying goes, all is fair in love and war. Chazal let's people use whatever they can as leverage. Story goes that Reuvain lost the path to his field. He forgot where it was. He went to all of the neighbors," hey do i own a strip of land in this your field?". They all claimed not to know. Reuvain was out of luck. Without the ability to prove which neighbor took his path, he had now way to get to his field, and would have to purchase a path from one of his neighbors.

      Then along came Shimon. Shimon bought up all of the neighboring fields. Reuvain was overjoyed! He sat down with Shimon. "Shimon, your fields surround mine, It's well known that I used to own a path in one of the fields that you bought. I wasn't able to get it until now because I couldn't prove where it was and therefore I couldn't prove who had it. But now I know who has it, it's you!"

      Shimon actually wins the case. He's got LEVERAGE. He can use the threat of returning the fields to the original owners to push off Reuvain.

      Using a get to push the other side to resolve disputes in Beis din instead of secular courts is not an unreasonable thing to do. And women can do it to. They usually don't have to because of their advantage in the secular courts.

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    2. Using a get to push the other side to resolve disputes in Beis din instead of secular courts is not an unreasonable thing to do.

      No, its not unreasonable at all. In fact it is a superb tactic from the school of Machiavelli. The Torah gives the man the power. What good is it if he can't use it to extort money from his estranged wife that is desperate to get on with life.

      An no, women do not have that power from the Torah. Refusing to accept a get does not make the man an aguna. It is rather a minor complication.

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  5. This is so silly it's laughable- if it weren't so sad. Why don't you tell me what assurance GD will have that AMW will actually follow through on this commitment if he is unhappy with RG's decision? His word??? LOL!!!! No wonder they won't agree to re-litigate this with no guarantee that he'll give the Get.

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    1. stating the obviousNovember 7, 2013 at 7:02 PM

      the arbitration agreement can be made to be dependent on his following through with the get

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  6. i have no skin in this game. I don't know either family. I am not some liberal who hates the idea of get, but on the same token i don't think get should be used as leverage against a woman. (especially once a court has decided the case.)

    what are they talking about dodelson not negotiating in the arbitration in good faith. arbitration for what? i thought the court already decided custody. also is it true that his side is really demanding 350,000? for what?

    and i have read the blogs. i dont care who is a plaintiff in court, who decided to go to the civil courts and if a seruv was really issued or not- i don't care who went to the media, my understanding was that the court decided custody which seems like a pretty typical arrangement, mom has primary custody with dad having a week night and every other weekend.

    by all accounts there is no abuse with the child and the kid is in a safe environment,
    so arbitration for what? why is he withholding the get?

    very perplexed, someone please explain,

    jeff

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    1. stating the obviousNovember 7, 2013 at 7:04 PM

      well we jews don't go by the secular courts. (and considering the problems with beis din, i guess that makes us close to a lawless society)

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  7. i have no skin in this game. I don't know either family. I am not some liberal who hates the idea of get, but on the same token i don't think get should be used as leverage against a woman. (especially once a court has decided the case.)

    what are they talking about arbitration. arbitration for what? i thought the court already decided custody. is it true the his side is really demanding 350,000? for what?

    and i have read the blogs. i dont care who is a plaintiff in court, who decided to go to the civil courts and if a seruv was really issued or not- i don't care who went to the media, my understanding was that the court decided custody which seems like a pretty typical arrangement, mom has primary custody with dad having a week night and every other weekend.

    by all accounts there is no abuse with the child and the kid is in a safe environment,
    so arbitration for what? why is he withholding the get?

    very perplexed, someone please explain,

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  8. Weiss was the first to go to court and lost. Dodelson is entitled, al pi halacha, to keep what she won in court. This letter is basically asking her to give in to the hostage taker and give back what she is entitled to in order to be free. We now have Weiss's uncle admitting that he does not want to live with her. He wants to divorce her. He needs psychlogical help. And what? She should give him some money or more custody in order to receive it? Halacha does not require that of her.
    If there is any chillul hashem it is on Weiss and his manipulating the Torah to torture Dodelson.

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    1. stating the obviousNovember 7, 2013 at 7:06 PM

      It's Aryeh who needs the help

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    2. I agree with you, and so does most of the world. This case has changed the way laymen will now look at their rabbinic leaders forever. Just read what happened in court and you will get the whole story. Read Weiss own words about visitation rights. Look at the kol korehs against him. It's not that complicated to give a get if you want to, so don't make it complicated.

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    3. Did Dodelson offer to go to beis din to adjudicate whether she may just unilaterally take the child to her parent's house before she just picked up and did it? DId Dodelson offer to immediately bring the case to a beis din to adjudicate before she unilaterally decided to revoke the couple's agreement regarding the child's custody schedule? Was Weiss just supposed to act like she did and physically seize the child? SHE forced HIM into court, and not the other way around.

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    4. @James - "Dodelson is entitled, al pi halacha, to keep what she won in court" - Fine, let her keep what she won in court. Since ORA's henchmen love the family courts, then the case is now closed, ORA should stop its jihad against R. Weiss.

      Nowhere in those court orders was R. Weiss ordered to give a GET by the court. In truth its you and your ORA fellow travelers who absolutely refuse to accept the NJ court orders and who are inciting the conflict all over the US media.

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  9. With the unwillingness shown by both Dodelson and Epstein to compromise is it any wonder their marriage failed to begin with?

    As a side note it is interesting to note that both Dodelson and Epstein both left their husbands within weeks of having their first child. Maybe Rabbi Eidenson can write a post about the physiological frame of mind a women is in postpartum and how that effects her decision making process.

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    1. What about the state of mind the husband is in immediately after becoming a father for the first time? Not an easy transition for him either.

      I'm no psychologist, but in my experience, if a marriage has issues, when the baby is born it only gets worse. More strain on the fragile relationship. That doesn't mean it isn't workable.

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    2. Lazer,

      It is true that some men go through a transition after a birth. But the reality is that in America today approximately 1 out 5 women will suffer from PPD. Unfortunately this could even be higher in the frum community since the average frum family has more kids than the typical American Family and have much shorter time lapses between pregnancies.

      There are a couple of symptoms that are associated with this but what I think YISstein was referring to is the symptoms that involve difficulty concentrating and making decisions. In a state of depression these symptoms can severely impact a persons way of thinking. Rachmano litzlan, a woman who goes undiagnosed can lead to very serious problems.

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  10. This statemet from Weiss's uncle has already been refuted. Sure, Avrohom Meir says that he will use the arbitrator, but the conditions of using said arbitrator are "to discard the court’s decision and to re-open all the issues that the court has already decided upon - in order to give Weiss a second chance to get what he wants. Then, and only then, according to Artscroll’s process, would Weiss consider giving a Get." Throw out the custody arrangement, and he will CONSIDER giving a get. Those are his conditions for sitting down to mediate.

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    1. can someone please produce the written statement?

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    2. hapitronim lelokim huNovember 7, 2013 at 7:42 PM

      We truly don't know all the details, and rightfully so. Since we have no privilege to know other peoples tzarot, it is useless to go on like grinding water. It is a Beth Din's business to dissolve and resolve a dead end marriage. If she accepted a sholish and mekabel kinyan to resolve, so be it, yikov hadin et hahar. If anyone knows otherwise, let them deposit it to the baal hashor veyaamid al shoro, that is to the sholish, veyachria beinehem. All else is speculation, dibah, lashan hara, korach veedoso, shichas damim, gezel, and gomol poreach beavir. PRing with ORA is YAGON VEANOCHO, lo zu haderech velo zu ha'ir. The more she continues, the more damage she is causing to herself and her child, the epitome of self destructing. As an adult and as a mother, it is your responsibility, and you should have mercy on both. According to the torah you are obligated letzayes dina, and let the chips fall where they may. If you keep on and win the battle but lose the war, you have gained nothing, but lost everything. Only then you will find peace and happiness, and I do wish that upon you and your child. As the good book says a good piece of advice, "Al titen es picha lachti es besorecha veal tomar lifnei hamalach ki shgaga hi lamah yiktzof elokim al kolecha vechibel maaseh yadecha".

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    3. What are you talking about? Gittal Dodelson already agreed to use this arbitrator. And the arbitration is already underway.

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    4. moshiach is on his wayNovember 7, 2013 at 9:12 PM

      So is Moshiach, but it is the ikvosei demeshuchei that takes much to long. If the Sholish paskens that she must fulfill the demands and she is tzayes, more power to her. Please understand, that A Get Krisus cuts all strings attached, and being a michzek is hamotzi lachavero olov haraya, that is the Torah law, that is not a Hostage situation, Torah rules and overrules. Same applies here, whatever the sholish says is Torat Moshe, and that goes for BOTH, bli kchal ushrak. And last but not least, stop ORA in its tracks it is kulam reshaim bnei avlo like a Dracula existing/surviving on others blood, and stop the chilul hashem already. No need to do the ma yafis dance leinei kol haolam kulo, how much help where they to you when we needed them most, ask r' michoel ber, oy vey gevalt gevalt korosi veein onehhhhh.... If he feels there is compensation coming to him, let the sholish pasken what's fair, done and over with, chalass, mafish, Jamarnu, but please spare the "rod", and spare us the chilul Hashem, we can't take this anymore. The Schina is shruya btzaar, the couple, the child, both parents on either side and we klall yisrael. Please have rachmanut! Thank you. And go on with your lives B' E' H' yisborach. Please remember, this is not for NITZACHON, it is for a GEULEH.

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    5. 1) Do you have a copy of the document that Rav Dovid says Avrom Meir Weiss signed, so we can see these conditions you speak of? Rav Dovid didn’t mention any conditions, and in fact said Avrom Meir Weiss would unconditionally accept a ruling by R’ Ronny Greenwald. If there are conditions they should be publicized, as it undermines Rav Dovid’s defense of Avrom.
      2) Did Gital agree to arbitration and then back out? Did she have conditions with which to accept arbitration? If she accepted arbitration, why back out and speak to the media? Who suggested R’ Ronny Greenwald as a mediator, and why use him instead of a Beis Din?

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    6. veyavo hakosuv hashlishi veyachria beinehem veyisgadal veyiskadash shmei rabo amenNovember 8, 2013 at 12:35 AM

      R' Dovid states: "R' Avraham Meir Weiss had already agreed to binding arbitration back in May 2013". It also states that she failed to mention to the Post, that she abandoned the arbitration. So there you have it that both agreed, and both signed understood. If either party had any preconditions, why did she fail to mention that to the post rag, it is very critical and highly convenient not to mention such. It is therefore my understanding, that everything and ALL is on the table for arbitration. It is also understood, that this is what you call a din torah Pshara, and there is no point in asking questions why this, that and the other. The bottom line is that BOTH agreed to this Sholish, and let him hammer out the Din according to derech yisrael sava, and that will be a win win situation for us ALL. Your Honor, No further questions, I rest my case.

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  11. Statements like " we have to abide by the court, right or wrong" are laughable. Did the students in the 1960s say that? Did the Jews in Russia say that? And yes, those situations are quite comparable indeed to what is going in today's court system. It is blatantly biased against men, and no attempt is made even to hide it. Without question men have the right, and the moral responsibility, to use whatever leverage they have to level the playing field. What's good for the gander is good for the goose.

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  12. weiss went to court to revoke the kids passsport so she shpuld not kidnap him to israel once they did that with a heter from bes din than dodelson sued for divorce in ct get your facts straight

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  13. and he signed documents that he will abide by arbitration no matter what

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  14. Free Gital stop lying. the ketter said he wouks give a get regardless of what tge decision is. the courts are totallt biased towards the poor wonan. The fact that tiy can so brazenly misrepresent shows why we shouldn't believe any of your claims

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  15. Pooe gital mt heart bleeds for you. WWhen you pkayed games with overnight visitation yoy should have thought about your get.

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  16. Weiss's uncle understands that is what Gital's side feels .
    He even said that you can contact him and discuss what you feel, if you want.

    But as he makes clear, if both sides continue along the path that you are talking about - Gital loses, Avrohom Meir loses, Aryeh Malkiel Loses - and Kvod Shomayim also loses.

    There has to be another option.





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  17. > It is not clear why Gital Dodelson thought it necessary to give the interview to the NY Post telling the whole world that she was an Aguna

    Because the minute she said that most people following the situation would lose all rational thought, forget that there are two sides to every story and blindly fall in behind her.

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  18. is mr Weiss and his family aware that after they come to a binding agreement and he gives a get she can run back to court and yell that the situation has changes and that the court should change the agreement. for example - she remarries and decides to move to California - he is supposed to have visitation every other weekend - there are many court cases that have overturned binding agreements. so the Weiss family should beware.
    the only thing that guarantees an agreement is money is escrow. and if the lady's side is rich it must be lots and lots of money.

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  19. WAIT! Who wrote this??! You wrote: "this letter today written by Rav Dovid Feinstein - the son of Rav Reuven Feinstein." Did you mean to say son of Rav Reuven or did you mean R. Dovid Feinstein SON OF REB MOSHE??

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    1. Rav Reuven's son and Rav Moshe Feinstein's grandson

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  20. "If Gital really wants a Get - it is clearly available - but only through good faith negotiations."

    Oh, okay.

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    1. Really is Clearly available??? where? she is been waiting for 3 and half years!!!!

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  21. Voice of ExperienceNovember 7, 2013 at 9:30 PM

    Anyone who has dealt with abusive, controlling people knows that mediation or arbitration is a bad idea. It is very susceptible to the manipulations of these arrogant narcissists. I, too, would refuse such a deal. Why wasn't the ruling of a neutral disinterested judge sufficient? In addition, I am sure he is holding out for money, additional custody time, or both. What caring mother would sell her child's emotional well-being? As someone who is dealing now, nearly 20 years later, with the emotional fall-out of accepting a liberal visitation plan with an abusive father, I support Gitel wholeheartedly in the approach she's taking. Allowing her son to spend time with this man is akin to leaving him alone in a room with poisonous drinks mixed in with innocuous ones. If, as her husband, he didn't respect her as an individual, he is unlikely to respect her son's needs either.

    A get should not be used as a bargaining chip, plain and simple. This is extortion.

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    1. Let her grow old and gray and single without ever getting a Get if she denies the son visitation with his father.

      Its his father as much as she is his mother. They both deserve full access to their child.

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    2. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 8, 2013 at 12:52 AM

      Experience,
      Your experience is just what it sounds like. Your experience.
      Many men have experiences too. Women who rarely if ever let them see the kids, and are always poisoning the kids against them. That is unfortunately the norm. Your husband got a little too much time with the kids. Woe is you!! Woe is you!! What do you want, a medal ?

      As far as the get being a weapon or an extortion tool it is simple. You want something from him, that he is not obligated to give you. You are in the process of ruining the life he currently has. Don't expect favors from him. Especially, that many men who have been nice, given a get right away, have been taken for a ride, and hurt bad.

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    3. so sweet from u to wish something so horrible!! watch out what goes out of ur mouth!! do u got sisters?would u like something like that happen to one of them???

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    4. Voice of ExperienceNovember 8, 2013 at 2:30 AM

      Asher.... No, not woe is me. Woe is my child who suffered -- who continues to suffer. I did what was expected of me. I sent off a young child for weeks at a time, following court orders, into the home of a man who refused to let her speak to me, who left her unsupervised for 24 hours at a time, and most damagingly, denied that she had any right to thoughts, feelings or opinions of her own.

      If a man is the kind of abusive, manipulative SOB that Avrohom Weiss appears to be, he is not capable of putting his child's needs first, which is what healthy parenting requires.

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    5. Voice of Experience - it is unfortunate that your ex-husband is such a terrible person and your child has suffered. However Gital - who obviously isn't reticent about listing her husband's faults - made no such accusation. Even though it is fairly common for a wife to claim her husband abuses their child is some for - Gital has not done so. So please judge people for what they are and not whether they might be like your ex-husband.

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    6. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 8, 2013 at 8:51 AM

      I am sorry about what you and your daughter went through. I don't know your situation. I apologize. Visitation schedules have to be set at intervals that the non custodial parent can deal with. It is hard for a non custodial parents to tend to kids for longer periods of time. That doesn't always mean that they shouldn't get the kids, nor is it always abuse. Sometimes the rulings of the judges are wrong as well.

      Life isn't easy in the divorced man/woman world, that is why marriages shouldn't be disposable. Organizations that fight for the right to get a divorce immediately, are just causing more people to get divorced, unnecessarily.

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  22. Have you seen a copy of the document that Avrom Meir Weiss signed? Ask Rav Dovid to post it so we all can see if it includes any objectionable provisions. Like most blog readers, I’m naturally suspicious of those who reference documents that are hidden from the public. If the signed document is truly as Rav Dovid described, it would change a lot of minds, including my own! He only has to lose by not publishing it.

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  23. Asher Pihem Diber ShavNovember 7, 2013 at 9:45 PM

    I saw a petition on facebook to artscroll asking them to fire Yosef Asher and Yisroel Weiss.

    Please tell me whether someone who signs the petition is over the bittul of "vechai achicha imach". Are there any other issurim for signing ? Can we have a seperate thread discussing the Halacha of signing such a petition ?

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    1. nothing else mattersNovember 7, 2013 at 11:43 PM

      None of this matters.....right/wrong.....good/bad.....doesnt matter, go to arbitration, go to court, more time, more money....doesnt matter!!! DOESNT MATTER!!! NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER TO KEEP A WOMAN SUFFERING LIKE THIS>>>>GIVE A GET NOW!!!!!!! Even if he has a "side" to his story, the only issue here is that withholding this get is WRONG!! His/Her facts are not important.....withholding the get is just not right.....period

      Delete
    2. you can keep repeating your opinion over and over again - but repetition doesn't make it any more or less true.

      Delete
    3. Well... maybe less.

      Delete
  24. Gital Did It Out of Spite

    Gital published her attack article in the trashy New York Post out of spite. For no other reason than unbridled hatred. They are close to a binding arbitration resolution through Rabbi Greenberger and she just wanted to give him a "last potch".

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    Replies
    1. Agree 100%; she opened up a terrible pischon peh by letting the goishe velt into a very private matter; the world as we know is clueless how we as Yidden date, marry within 3 months, all the intricate details of a marriage....by airing publicly her dirty laundry she took away that special feeling we have as brothers & sisters & the beautiful religion we have; she tarnished it all ...shame on her & no I don't know either of the parties involved.. ....
      al eileh ani bochia....

      Delete
  25. All irrelevant. Give the get and then fight it out as long as you wish.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yossie,

      You obviously don't know how these things work. Contrary to ORA propaganda, these things should be worked out before the get is given.

      Once the get is given the marriage should be over and they should move on with their lives. Not to rehash everything all over and fight for months on end. A get is called a sefer krisus for a reason.

      In many cases men have given a get only to be called back to secular court by his ex who is contesting everything until he is completely bled dry.

      Most competent Dayanim will not issue a get until everything is worked out. Once the divorce takes place they should really be able to move on. Sitting and fighting after the get because everything was not worked out does not sound like they are really divorced, If you were buying a house would you close on it before ironing out the details?

      A Get isn't some formality it is a serious legally binding Halachic document that has to be executed with the correct conditions (not trampling on either a man or womans halachic rights).

      With this case being as nasty as it has become amw would be a fool to give a thing until all the details are worked out.

      Delete
    2. Almost impossible to do any negotiations, arbitrations, discussions after the Get is given.. This is an unfortunate reality.

      Delete
  26. "only through good faith negotiations" - Good faith negotiations? Not possible as long as Dodelson is sicing Herschel Schachter's YU ORA attack dogs on her husband.

    These crazed feminist ORA thugs utilize all manner of harassment and public embarrassment and intimidation on the largest scale, to force weak husbands to submit to all the demands of their wives, regardless of HALACHA. We've seen how even D.C. subway billboards have been used to defame and smear Jewish husbands. The husband's employer, landlord, infirm relatives etc. may be harassed by ORA until the husband folds up like a cheap camera.

    ORA is doing what it does best - preventing Jewish women from ever getting a kosher GET while screaming mindlessly about allegedly evil husbands who are "chaining" their wives.

    R. Weiss is justified in completely withdrawing from any "negotiations" until Dodelson calls off her ORA attack dogs.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Calling off the dogs is not nearly enough.

      A public apology and reparations to Weiss, his family and Artscroll for such a dirty campaign are definitely in order.

      She has damaged artscroll and who knows how much money in lost business will be accounted to her disgusting website.

      I do not envy this woman, the amount of chillul hashem and damage she has called is truly frightening.

      I feel really bad for her because when this is eventually settled and ORA is not there to instigate her, reality will set in. She will want to get married but no normal man would want such a woman. There will always be the fear of if it doesn't work out look what she can do. If she were to get married her husband will most likely never form a normal relationship with her because this fear will always be there that anything he shares with her could be turned against him..

      Delete
  27. Gittal Writes Shmutz Article in NY Post to Shtuch Her Husband

    Gital wrote her shmutz article in the pruste New York Post to shtuch and hurt her husband. There was no other reason considering that the case is near a resolution through the arbiter they both agreed to see and allow to resolve the case.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I agree that we have only read her side up to now and that I would like to be LeHav Tzehut. However, if the marriage is over in civil court already three years ago, then there is no room for being LeHav Tzehut. He is using the Get as leverage for visitation and money and that is NOT ok. He is using his family's name, power and yichus to keep her in an unacceptable position. Give her a Get and then negotiate, anything else in unacceptable.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your position is not in accordance with Jewish law and tradition. If Jewish law and tradition are irrelevant, why is a get even the least bit relevant?

      Delete
    2. " He is using the Get as leverage for visitation and money and that is NOT ok."

      Your view assumes there is something wrong with the man getting more visitation. Why? Why if a marriage doesn't work out, is the child more the mother's than the father's? If the formula is give more visitation, get the get, then why not do that?

      Delete
  29. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 8, 2013 at 1:35 AM

    My advice to the Honorable Husband Avraham Meir Shlit"a

    1. Have no fear. Breath in breath out. Relax. This will not affect any future shidduchim. You will be fine.
    2. You are up against people who can potentially be violent, have the local police informed about your situation and whereabouts. Make sure you have protection from a potential Epstien style situation, or any loose cannon.
    3. Don't fear them firing your father from artscroll. Add it to the tab. If it was 350k, ask now for 1.5million. Taking away parnassah is no small hurt they are putting on your family. They will pay up.
    4. Don't cave in. The pressure being put, are by people who don't know or don't care about Halacha. Don't know or don't care about your pain. They will blame you anyway, now, later, it doesn't make a difference. At this point, they won't care what you have to say anyway. You are now not just standing up for yourself. You are standing up for men all over. So that people like ORA, or bullies like those who are pursuing you, shouldn't be able to hurt vulnerable young men. So that men get visitation with their kids, get a relationship with their kids. Give her a get when you are comfortable that your relationship with your child is secure. That may take a while. Until you have that warm feeling of security in your heart, protect yourself first. Chayecha kodem

    ReplyDelete
  30. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 8, 2013 at 1:56 AM

    Forget Halacha for a moment,
    I read all these people coming out of left field opining that it is a God given right for a woman to recieve a get as soon as she wants one.

    One question: what about the God given right to have visitation with your child ? Which rock are you hiding under, as thousands of men and tens of women have no relationship with their kids because of horrible ex spouses ? Why don't we have a website where we detail the visitation allowed in each divorce case ? Why are we only shaming those who don't give a get on the spur of the moment?

    Also, what if their name isn't kotler or Feinstein ? Do they then not matter ? Is it only the famous ? Is it only the women who we need to protect ? What if your son marries a woman, has 6 kids, throws him out, tells the world that he's abusive, and denies him a relationship with them ? What then ?

    ReplyDelete
  31. If Dodelson wanted a get, she should have gone to a Beis Din for permission before unilaterally taking the couple's baby and going to her parents.
    If Dodelson wanted a get, she should have gone to a Beis din for permission before unilaterally violating the custody agreement she reached with the child's father.

    ReplyDelete
  32. I feel bad for her siblings now. Will they be able to get a shidduch after her Post article??

    Oy.. so much agmas nefesh over there..

    ReplyDelete
  33. Dodelson clearly acknowledges unilaterally relocating the couple's child. To the contrary, she actually boasts of that in the New York Post article. Does Dodelson deny violating the couple's custody arrangement before Weiss went to court? Does Dodelson claim that she offered to go to beis din or to binding arbitration before Weiss went to court?

    ReplyDelete
  34. ORA's Jeremy Stern: “It’s shocking that Weiss hasn’t made any public statements about it."

    Jeremy Stern has said a lot of pretty outrageous things, but I don't know where to even start with this one.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I highly suspect that many of the aliases used on this blog are the same person. Do the moderators enforce keeping one alias by monitoring IP addresses? They should.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you are correct hower blogger doesn't offer any tools for monitoring IP addresses. If you have any suggests which are not too complicated or time consuming I would be interested

      Delete
    2. You would have to use a service like Disqus. That would do it, and allow everyone else to see the various aliases someone was using.

      Delete
    3. I would highly suggest you post (no pun intended) your link on her original story, since the blogs there are through the roof, yet your link is all the way at the bottom~what this woman started by going to a menuval nspaper is a tremendous Chilul Hashem no matter who's right or wrong....what a disgusting thing to have done on her part...

      Delete
    4. I do have a link to the original story it is connected to the word NY Post. Perhaps I should have made that clearer

      Delete
    5. Do another link that is visible as soon as people log on to her saga

      Delete
  36. Yes, its important to hear both sides of the story. Yet in this case there is only one side. The marriage is over and there is NO excuse of any kind that this women is being held as an Aguna. In this case it is a shanda that people with these yichus, that are the offspring of Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l who was so outspoken and worked so hard to prevent Agunot, would be perpetuating such an act. Give her Get NOW, all negotiations can be done afterwards on equal ground and not by having her Get act as a shotgun to her head. I will be boycotting Feldheim until such time as the Get is given and I recommend all frum women to do the same.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jenni you keep repeating yourself with conjecture which has no basis in fact and giving advise and halachic pronouncements which are not helpful to either side.

      In fact you are so focused on your message you attack Feldheim - which has absolutely no connection to either family.

      Delete
  37. Actually, it is to Weiss's credit that he not speak in public. Our sages say that when one is shamed publicly and doesn't respond, he receives blessings from heaven.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Aha - there's the rub - had they taken the moral high ground, they would have indeed had that going for them. But ther record reflects that they chose to engage in ad hominem attacks (they have more words for "lies" than Eskimos have for snow - straight out of a lawyer's playbook) so it's hard for them to play that card with a straight face. They have crossed y'gar sahadusa l'ra-ah unfortunately.
      shmuel simenowitz

      Delete
    2. You miss the distinction, Gital made very specific accusations against Avraham Meir. The Weiss' did not respond with describing their version - they simply said the accusation contained lies.

      If they had responded with their own NY Post article you would have a point - but they didn't and you are simply wrong equating them.

      Delete
  38. In response to Avraham Weiss' uncle's statement expressing his confusion as to why Gittel won't attend an arbitration to negotiate for her gett.

    There is nothing to "arbitrate" or "negotiate" here. A gett is NOT up for arbitration or negotiations (much in the same way as there was never an "arbitration" or "negotiations" as to when and why a yid may eat pork). And by the way, Avraham and Gittel have been divorced over a year now-this means the terms of the divorce have been determined, so there are NO outstanding terms left to be "arbitrated". So the Weiss' bid for arbitration makes no sense.

    The letter from R. Feinstein, Avroham Weiss' uncle demonstrates that the Weisses are using gett denial as leverage to extort something they are not entitled to. And under the guise of "daas torah" nonetheless.

    Let's be clear, the Torah NEVER endorses extortion, causing pain to a fellow yid, or gett denial. So why does R. Feinstein endorse it? Shame on the Weisses and on everyone supporting gett denial. You cannot fathom the pain of an agunah.

    -Naomi Trainer

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unfortunately you are rather confused as to the facts of the case and the resulting halacha. You are mistaken - the secular divorce does not determine the giving of a get and thus your conclusion that there is nothing to abitrate is simply wrong. Halachicly Weiss has no obligation to give a get.

      Your concern for Gital is wonderful but you are ignoring that Gital initiated this process in a way that was guaranteed to lead to problems for everyone concerned. You are ignoring the pain of the husband and more important you are ignoring the welfare of their child.

      Shame on you for refusing to look at the other side of the picture and making up your own version of halacha

      Delete
  39. http://www.setgitalfree.com/uploads/2/3/0/0/23001734/kol_koreh_-_april_30.pdf

    The February 2013 Kol Koreh by Rav Perlow and Rav Perlow calls upon Avrom to listen to Bais Din and give a Get. Rav Dovid Feinstein said Avrom agreed to see Rabbi Ronald Greenwald in May 2013.

    1) Does Rav Dovid Feinstein consider that be fulfilling the obligation stated in the Kol Koreh?
    2) Do Rav Perlow and Rav Perlow consider that be fulfilling the obligation stated in their Kol Koreh?
    3) Did Avrom agree to arbitration on condition that that Rabbi Greenwald revisits the issues decided by Beis Din, so that his acceptance of arbitration means that he’s still in violation of the Kol Koreh? Or did he agree unconditionally to accept Rabbi Greenwald's verdict?
    4) Can we see a copy of the document Avrom signed in which he agreed to binding arbitration with Rabbi Greenwald?

    I'm sure Rav Dovid Feinstein understands why many people can't trust his letter without seeing the answers to these questions. Please contact him so that he can share his answers with us. Thank you!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please read the Weiss Family documents. They reject the halachic significance of the Kol Koreh and the siruv was nullified by their beis din. Your request is absurd. Rav Dovid Feinstein and the Weiss family have no need or interest in convincing you of anything - who are you anyway. Just an anonymous poster!

      The issue is at this point that the Weiss' have the halachic right to withhold the get. The Dodleson's are conducting a pr campaign that they think will embarrass Weiss into submission and thus avoid the binding arbitration route which will cost them more money.

      Delete
    2. On this blog I’m an anonymous poster. Offline I’m one of the many people R’ Dovid Feinstein wants to influence, and I know many who feel the same way I do.
      There are two things which could convince me to change my mind.
      1) The first is to show that Avrom Meir in fact signed a document to accept unconditionally the ruling of R’ Greenwald. There are indications that he in fact had conditions, which is why R’ Greenwald served as a moderator and not an arbitrator.
      2) The second be a letter from Rav Yaakov Perlow and Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky retracting their Kol Koreh.


      Until that happens, I and the many who think like me will remain convinced that R’ Dovid Feinstein is being disingenuous. I want to be proven wrong so I can change my mind. The reason to not publish Avrom Meir’s signed document is that it would weaken his side. Of the all the documents cited, that is the one that is being left out. Everyone knows why that is.

      You wrote “The issue is at this point that the Weiss' have the halachic right to withhold the get.” Chas V’Sholom! That is not the only issue. There is Tov & Yashar, and not being a Menuval B’Rishus HaTorah. Many people feel that even if Avrom Meir were fully justified, withholding a Get is a Chillul Hashem that brings shame to all frum Jews and turns people away from Torah. If you lived in America and spoken to Baalei Teshuva and former Baalei Teshuva who have left the fold, you would see the damage of this Chillul Hashem firsthand.

      Delete
    3. I don't accept your viewpoint that Rav Dovid Feinstein is interested in winning your vote. As far as I know he simply made an observation to Rabbi Greenwald's letter. The other Rav Dovid Feinstein did write a letter calling for producing a get - but again I don't think he is concerned with your opinion - but rather of the Dodelson's.

      Thus your whole premise - which is similar to that of the Dodelson's that the issue is how many "Likes" are accumulated and the winner takes all - is simply wrong.

      Delete
  40. I just read through all 85 comments and besides being disgusted with the rampant sexism found in this thread I am more disgusted with the lack of actual Halachic knowledge the commentators have. The Gemera in Kiddushin makes it clear if someone refuses to give a get kophin oto ad sh yomar rotze ani (you beat him until he gives it). Why does the Gemera say this? Bec a get is a halahick prenup, a protection for the women NOT a bargaining tool by the man. Chazal on the mishna (it may be a briasa dont have it in front of me now) explain that you can kophin oto with any means possible. Since we live in a world where beating the crap out of Avrohom (which is what should happen) is illegal, Gital did the next best thing publicly shame him which is in her right. This letter which claims that Avrohom opened up a way for her to get her get is pure hogwash, Avrohom is being a terrorist and you do not give in to terrorists demands (a comparable case is that you sue me you win, you threaten to kill me and then you say i wont kill you if we go into an arbitration hearing, thats not an valid option, thats blackmail).

    I hope Avrohom gives the get soon bec this whole case has caused a chillul hashem and has the potential to drive more non-orthodox jews away from the religion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you are the one who is incredibly ignorant of the halacha. I am glad to hear you have looked at the gemora in Kiddushin but you missed the gemora in Kesubos and you missed the discussion in the Rishonim and Achronim as well as the psak in Shulchan Aruch and contemporary gedolim who disagree with your"psak"

      Delete
  41. RDE, you may wish this as a separate story:

    http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/11/a_jewish_women_who_has_been_de.html

    Staten Island father responds to Internet controversy over Jewish "get"

    ReplyDelete
  42. [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/345lxxk.jpg[/img]

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. how do you know this is genuine?

      Delete
    2. I got it from here:
      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151990748351941&set=a.10150092818456941.282690.726091940&type=1&theater

      Delete
  43. Letter from R Dovid Feinstien son of R Moshe Feinstein regarding this case.
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mmfVEW-v59s/Un7gSNHLH6I/AAAAAAAAK7M/dY1zPlAtXYM/s1600/ronnie-r+dovid.jpg

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just verified that the letter is genuine

      Delete
  44. A letter from R' Geenwald showing that both families never agreed on him as a binding arbitrator in the first place due to legal complications.
    I am not coming from either side, I just think its necessary to see both sides of a story before making public statements about people you don't personally know well

    http://www.setgitalfree.com/refuting-the-weiss-statements.html

    ReplyDelete
  45. You said;
    "The issue is at this point that the Weiss' have the halachic right to withhold the get"

    Thank you - as the Dean of Harvard Law School once said "If I frame the issue, I can never lose the debate". One of my rebbeim once told me "goyim talk about rights - gay rights, animal rights, etc. Yidden talk about responsibilities." As you know, the Shulchan Aruch is not a monolithic work - it often says that one can do ABC... and then says "v'tove l'hachmir". What that means is that there is a spiritual continuum ranging from those who frame the debate as to what I CAN do and then the other end of the spectrum is where people consider what they SHOULD do. It depends where you want to live your halachic life. Sadly, this case (on both sides) is a demonstration of what people can do versus what they should do. Remember, Shammai was right but Hillel was effective - again, too much energy spent being right and not enough being effective. That's the real tragedy here.
    shmuel simenowitz

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mr simenowitz your rebbe happens to be correct in general but there are many exceptions. Get is one of them. If you read the teshuva literature the poskim clearly don't agree with you. the significance of this is not just a word game but the question of whether the get is posul as get me'usa

      Delete
  46. Recipients and PublicityNovember 14, 2013 at 6:15 PM

    Stop the madness and stop fighting with each other ALL of you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Second Bais HaMikdosh was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam ("causeless hatred), and the third Bais HaMikdosh will only be rebuilt by Ahavas Chinom ("selfless love")! You are ALL making yourselves into a laughingstock in full view of the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the Weisses and Dodelsons STOP IT and tell your warring kids who are fighting each other to grow up and stop acting like BABIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a disgrace.

    ReplyDelete

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