Sunday, January 24, 2010

Tropper - Why the Rabbis were silent



5tjtimes

Rabbi Dovid Ribiat heads the Kollel Ohr Yaakov of Forshay in Monsey NY, and is regarded as a prominent Halachic authority across the US. He is also the author of several Seforim,   including the world-renowned four-volume work on the 39 Melochos of Shabbos. On January 21, 10 he graciously consented to the following interview regarding the Tropper scandal:

Interviewer: Over the past several weeks there have been a lot of questions in the media over the silence of the Rabbis in the Ultra-orthodox community re. the Tropper scandal. Why has there been no condemnation of Tropper from the Rabbis? [...]

114 comments :

  1. its been over a month since the tapes have surfaced.

    would r' ribiat kindly provide an approximate timeline for this investigations conclusion?

    also can he clarify? first he states: 'there is no single authoritative Rabbinic body in Monsey' and "these organizations do not function principally in Monsey, and are not under our jurisdiction". then he goes on to talk about the rabbis undertaking an investigation. who are the rabbis spearheading this prompt investigation? and to what end?

    rabbi ribiat may be a great talmid chochom, but i believe he is out of his league in dealing with a master manipulator and weasel like tropper.

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  2. I just posted the following qat the 5t website;

    Where and when did Tropper publicly deny the authenticity of the tapes, as alleged in this interview?

    Why on earth is it incumbent on the community to authenticate the tapes? If Tropper has a problem with the tapes, let him hire forensic experts to disprove their authenticity. Clearly, money is not an issue. All Tropper would have to do is find one of the voice 'actors', one of the myriad of technicians, script writers, agents and agents in the publicity shy arena that is theater. Unless of course, the persons involved would all maintain the conspiracy.

    Nevertheless, for some strange reason, Tropper seems remarkably uninterested in stepping forward and asserting his innocence. In fact, his verifiable remarks on the matter have been reflected his 'disappointment' and 'need to reflect'.

    As with Indian sheitel 'nontroversy', Rabbi Ribiat has not acquitted himself with distinction.

    From The Forward:

    http://www.forward.com/articles/5729/

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  3. To be frank, I found that interview scary.

    It means that no matter what happens in Tropper's case, we aren't learning how we as a community ought to respond in general. Systemically, nothing is getting fixed.

    -micha

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  4. be frank, I found that interview scary.

    It means that no matter what happens in Tropper's case, we aren't learning how we as a community ought to respond in general. Systemically, nothing is getting fixed
    =============
    Nothing to be scared of since this type of problem never happens there is no need to have a mechanism dealing with it - and they are not even sure it happened here.

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  5. As in other cases in the past there must be g'viyos eidus in a beis din. That will work.

    Otherwise there isn't much to do.

    I thougt Rabbi Ribiat's thoughts were a sane voice in this messy situation, based on Halacha which is our anchor. ( no matter what my personal feelings are)

    The Gemorah and the psak (I beleive) is that one cannot accept Loshon Hara, but one should be choshesh mibayeh, one should be cautous and suspect

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  6. wow kudus to rabbi ribiat for a job well done. of course who popped up in the interveiw none other that slifkin now i know what is driving that paper they support slifkin as you see from the questions

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  7. this is R 'Slifkin's response

    http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/01/tropper-and-gedolim.html


    A story is related of how R' Shachter (a Gadol and expert in Halacha) was shouted down by Tropper for mentioning cases where Gedolim had shaken hands with women.
    Only a psycho with illusions of Grandeur can shout down a Gadol B'Torah b'parhesiah!

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  8. Rav Dovid Ribiat put it extremely well, and very correctly.

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  9. In reality most likely nothing will happen with Tropper. Reason being that it cost considerable money to have tapes officially authenticated. Someone contacted me and said that they wanted to do it. I put them in touch with the right people. Asking price was $10,000. They went as low as $5,000. As of yet, last I heard, still unpaid. No one from Tropper's camp wants to have it done(though if he is telling the truth it would be his salvation). No one against him so far has been willing to pay it, as they are nervous that Tropper might be right.

    So unless someone comes up with the requisite cash... the world will never know.

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  10. Just for the record!Over shabbos a chasuver English Man was in my house! He Mentioned tropper gave him the run around for over 3 weeks to verify if the Kallah was Jewish. It turned up with his persistence with other Rabbonim, she wasn't converted yet! They wanted to make the chassuna!!! R"L, He is the biggest fraud in the Gerious to date!

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  11. Eternal Jewish Cover UpJanuary 24, 2010 at 4:42 PM

    The Monsey rabbonim publicly condemned Tendler based on tape recordings, so what is the difference here?

    Then the 5TJT lobs softball questions at Rabbi Ribiat and let's him get away with saying that Rav Wachtfogel has nothing to do with Tropper. No mention of R' Elya Ber's nephew being installed as head of EJF or of the bug hug of Tropper at the Fallsburg melaveh malka.

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  12. some of the people commenting here should open up a dictionary and find the definition of "sycophant"

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  13. Rabbi Ribiat is a part of the problem.

    In his world, as DT has noted, these problems don't exist (until he gets reshus to say they do exist).

    I'm delighted he has remained quiet on so many others problems we think we face, because clearly, those problems don't really exist.

    I'm sure Rabbi Ribiat is an excellent Rosh Kollel. I am also quite sure he has not yet heard of the Peter Principle.

    Communal outrage is not feigned or overblown. As we have seen lately on this very blog and others, geirim have been and continue to be steam rollered, aided and abetted by rabbonim and manhigim.

    The Spinker, Pinter, Lakewood 'investment' advisers, Deal developers and organ brokers are the tip of the iceberg. Sexual predators and deviants run free for decades, wife abusers get shlishi and shevii, and 'mimeg ganvenen fun yenem' is psak din.

    All the while, the rabbonim and manhigim feign outrage and shock that the likes of Tropper can be a part of their world.

    Talk about denial.

    Don't shoot the messenger- geirim and bt's are a lot more bichezkas kashrus then most of the frum olam.

    FFB families ought to welcome geirim and bt's into their families with open arms, instead of pretending they are flawed.

    Speaking of flawed, ask yourself a question- where do you think blue eyes in Jews comes from?

    'Racial and religious purity' is not a place the olam wants to go.

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  14. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 24, 2010 at 4:57 PM

    Rabbi Ribiat seems to be dodging the questions about which rabbis should be speaking up because the questioner is obviously not focused on Monsey rabbis who are not in the same league as the rabbis of Agudath Israel that Avi Shafran writes for.

    There are no Moetzes Gedolei haTorah members who live in the Monsey area, they are mostly based 100 miles south in Brooklyn, and so far, unlike the RCA and the BADATS, the Agudath Israel of America have not made any explicit statements either way about the Tropper resignation and what caused it as well as its ongoing repercussions that has the media in a feeding frenzy perplexed why none of Tropper's main rabbinic backers at Agudath Israel have not done what the BADATS did years ago and the RCA did right after Tropper resigned.

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  15. I would argue that these guys, Ribiat and Shafran, are testing the water, to see if it is safe for Gedolim to come out with any statements. It is a bit like the ravens and the doves that Noach sent out of the Ark.
    So far, no Great Authorities (in the Aguda/degel/litvish world) have made any statements. They do not know if it is safe, or what theyshoudl say. Shafran and Ribiat are fotosoldiers, and they are feeling the pulse of the public reactions.

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  16. Tropper is TroubledJanuary 24, 2010 at 5:19 PM

    "mekubal said...In reality most likely nothing will happen with Tropper. Reason being that it cost considerable money to have tapes officially authenticated. So unless someone comes up with the requisite cash... the world will never know."

    Which "world"? Anyone who has every heard Tropper talk or has heard him speak over the years knows instantly that that voice can only belong to Tropper and the lady is his wife Leba. It's a no-brainer.

    It is utter trash to say that "the world will never know" like saying that "The world will never know" if Nixon spoke on his own tapes when it's 100% Nixon's voice to anyone who ever heard Nixon speak and talk. There is a thing called "tevias ayin dekol" and so far not even Tropper has denied in public it's his voice, he leaves it up to mercenaries to do that.

    In Clinton case Monica Lewisnky saved dher dress with Clinton's semen on it, and he had to give DNA samples that then matched. In Shannon Orand's case there is no known semen but she can testify in court that it was Tropper's voice. She told the rabbonim who converted her in Eretz Yisrael about her interactions with Tropper and they even advised her not to refer to him as "rabbi" so what's the shayla, as if rabbonim needs the validation of some techie who will charge ten thousand bucks to say it's Tropper when they ALL know it's Tropper on those tapes, and only a shoteh would say it's not.

    Of course a woman cannot testify in bais din, yet even so Tropper ran away from being head of EJF when the tapes with her conversations with the "Tropper's voice" were made public.

    If it wasn't his voice and image on those tapes he would NEVER have quit, of better yet, been FORCED to quit, because he has absolutely no defense.

    One wonders what or who mekubal is really trying to protect? Furthermore mekubal doesn't seem to realize how in America and in Europe the topic of Tropper's scandals is on the front burners right now. It's the buzz in all circles who follow the news, otherwise Agudah in America would not have put their spokesperson Avi Shafran to say something from the back of the peanut gallery even-half-related. The wheels of justice move VERY slowly in America but note, they ARE moving, and Tropper is under those wheels right now, make no mistake about it, just follow all the rapid-fire articles that are pushing the slow-moving wheels.

    By the way, has anyone heard any word about Guma, or anything from his family or his rabbi Tovia Singer, about how he's doing and when he'll be released? Unlike all the other Israeli news outlets Arutz Sheva didn't seem to mention that Guma had a breakdown and was sent for treatment. Is he taking visitors? Who is allowed to visit him and what are the hours and where? Is anyone monitering this news? If so please let us know.

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  17. By the way, has anyone heard any word about Guma, or anything from his family
    ===================
    This is a news items regarding an interview that Guma gave that was suppressed

    http://www.one.co.il/Article/151603.html

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  18. It appears that someone needs to call Tropper to a Din Torah.

    OK, let's examine:

    1. Which Bais Din in America would be willing to take this? I don't believe the RCA works for this as we need a Charedi Bais Din to gain acceptance with the Yeshivishe community.

    2. What halachic grounds are there to take him to a Din Torah? If the goal is to have EJF open their books and explain who the recipients of the money are, the grounds need to support this.

    3. Having some knowledge about how this system works, which Toein would take the case? It would need to be someone of the stature of Zalman Gruss or Shmiel Fried.

    I would be willing to send the Hazmonos.

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  19. im waiting for "men in pink coats " to pop out of the wood work with his hilucinations its quite clear this blog and the paper from the five towns want the scandel to continue to try to help slifkin , anyone who wants to know what slifkin is all about just go to his website and see the way he speaks about gedolei yisroel. anyone who wants to know what a rca rabbi is all about just fallow him around , as he goes from the beach to a teffilin date

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  20. Tropper's ally Rabbi E.M. Schmeltzer has been under a barrage of criticism for giving kovod to convicted pedophiles and an alleged philanderer.

    Rabbi EMS is now fighting back by putting an anonymous critic in "cherem". He will not even listen to any evidence about the alleged philanderer since he claims that the issur lashon hara does not allow for it. Has there been a time in history when an anonymous person has been put in cherem even for a legitimate reason?

    Here is the kol korei he put up, and which he purports most other rabbonim in Miami signed, but don't forget that his friend Tropper has a nasty habit of forging rabbonishe signatures:

    A flyer has been circulating in our area written by a cowardly anonymous author. His senseless words are full of blasphemy, deriding an unnamed rabbi. Since he does not specify the target of his insults, we take his words to be an insult directed to the Rabbinate as a whole.

    He is guilty of disgracing the scholars and is considered to be an Apikorus who lost his share in the world to come (see Sanhedrin 99B Yoreh Deah 234:6). He is also subject to excommunication (Cherem), which would not allow him any honor in a synagogue nor may he be counted to a minyan (see Yoreh Deah 334:47 Choshen Mishpat 27:2).

    This person subjects himself to be plagued with a disease for which there is no cure (see Shabbos 119B).

    His only way to redeem himself and to be freed from such curses is to humbly approach the one whom he meant to insult and beg for absolution. Afterward, he should appear before a Bais Din and plead for release from Cherem.

    הרחמן הוא ישים שלום עלינו ועל כל ישראל

    Rabbi Yerucham Bensinger

    Rabbi Avrohom Yeshaya Groner

    Rabbi David Lehrfield

    Rabbi Ephraim Leizerson

    Rabbi Yosef Y. Marlow

    Rabbi Tzvi Eliyohu Meir Schmelczer

    Rabbi Ephraim E. Shapiro

    Rabbi Pinchas Weberman

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  21. Men in the white coatsJanuary 24, 2010 at 7:11 PM

    So in the name of his krum idea of yeshivishkeit, "orthodoxjew" is being motzee shem ra that if a rov joins the RCA, he must be guilty of znus.

    I wonder what kind of tashlumen a beis din would be mechayev this rasha to pay for being motzee laaz like this?

    Despite the shoyteh's rantings, a number of gedolim were against the way Slifkin was treated and a small number of gedolim have had the courage to speak out against Tropper.

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  22. Orthodox Jew, I just saw your website.

    With every fober of my being, I wish you a refuah shelama.

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  23. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 24, 2010 at 7:19 PM

    "orthodoxjew said...to know what a rca rabbi is all about just fallow him around , as he goes from the beach to a teffilin date"

    You know buddy, you leave yourself wide open on that one, let's see now:

    If anyone wants to see what a pedophile is all about just follow Mandrowitz as he is protected by Ger.

    If anyone wants to see what an ArtScroll editor is like who attacked Slifkin, just follow Leib Pinter all the way to jail (after you steal tens of millions.)

    If anyone wants to see what a Charedi rabbi is like "supervising" conversions just follow Tropper who was forced to resign because he was caught on tape blackmailing a convert into sexcapades...

    You know, you need to take lessons in logic, and MEMORY because it seems you suffer from selective memory loss.

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  24. Some comments regarding the article:

    1. This is not really just a Monsey issue. With EJF, geirus, destruction of reputations, etc., this is a global issue. (“Regardless, these organizations do not function principally in Monsey, and are not under our jurisdiction”.) Therefore the leaders of our generation should be involved, not Monsey rabbis who have much less power than tropper. And the real subject at hand is that people are beginning to lose confidence in Jewish leadership. True or not, many are beginning to believe that our leadership is built upon political realities more than yashrus. The risk of losing frum youth while this matter cools off is probably the largest it has been since the threat of the Haskalah. Only this time it is not an issue of belief, but of disillusionment.

    2. Saying things like, “I am not sure that EJF has the broad Rabbinic support that you describe”, is just more of “We will let you plebes know our decision when it is over. Your anguish is meaningless to us”. And there is more of , “Well from what I hear…”, which tells people nothing.

    3. Nowhere is mentioned which Rabbis in Monsey or anywhere else are “looking into it”.

    4. “Someone probably asked the Rabbis to save Tropper [sic] from slander, and they merely responded. They are not making a Halachically binding act of support.” But the statements released did not have any qualifying phrases at all, such as “unless these allegations are proven” and so forth. Instead, they were forceful denunciations of calls for justice. And this statement, indicating a lack of complete comprehension by those who released these statements, just adds to the gnawing suspicion that we cannot rely on their protection in times of crisis.

    5. “I can only say that once there is incontrovertible evidence, appropriate measures will be taken.” But that is exactly the point. We are wondering who is taking action to resolve (uncover the evidence in) this situation. Do the masses need to uncover it and then place it before a beis din that is not named here?

    6. “… reveals not only a crass ignorance of the books' content, but also of the basics of Jewish philosophy.” There are certain basic beliefs (ani maamins) that are agreed upon. Beyond that, there are very different philosophies in Orthodox Judaism for different sects. One very basic differing of beliefs revolves around whether science should be used to help understand HKBH’s many wonders. I have heard many say that “we don’t hold the Rambam’s view today”. But it is a valid view.

    7. “observers from outside our community must be fair-minded. They must not attempt to paint the entire community or its Rabbinic leadership with one ugly broad brush. Nor is it fair or constructive to jump to conclusions over the manner in which internal issues are dealt with by the Rabbis, especially outsiders who do not feel the pulse of the community. Those who do not reside in a community…” First of all, this is not about one community. Second of all, the pulse of the community is beaten by us, not by the Rabbonim in the shuls. Third of all, Purim is coming up. We need a resolution. Those who live near Grove Street or Maple Avenue need to know where their children can go to deliver mishloach manos. As a family with teenage daughters, we need to know if Kol Yaakov bochurim should be allowed to dance in our house this year. When bochurim go shteeble hopping, do they go to Kol Yaakov? Do we drop by the purim shpiel? What if a shidduch is red with a Kol Yaakov bochur? Without any answers or at least progress reports, I think the de facto answer will be to isolate anyone having to do will Kol Yaakov.

    The whole interview seems to say, “Calm down. Those in authority are taking care of it.” But we are commanded only to have emunah in Hashem. Recent events show that we must be suspicious of those rabbonim who equate this with emunah in them.

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  25. Actually, Leib Pinter stole hundreds of millions. He is also a chotay umachtee es horabim for selling treif meat & cheese sanwiches he claimed were kosher. See the 1973 NY Times interview with Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman who confronted Pinter about the treif.

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  26. Why isn't orthodoxjew aka hocker banned from the site like Roni was? He is bashmutzing many more rabbis that Roni ever did.

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  27. Asylum said...

    Why isn't orthodoxjew aka hocker banned from the site like Roni was? He is bashmutzing many more rabbis that Roni ever did.
    ================
    orthodoxjew is a nebach. No one takes him seriously. On the other hand he does sincerely present the "party" line and logic which is helpful to know.

    If people really are bothered by him I have no problem with banning him.

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  28. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 24, 2010 at 8:05 PM

    Telamdenu rabbeinu: What to do?

    It is now a series of Halacha le'ma'aseh questions!!!

    Great quote and shaylas from a truly wise person with immense ramifications, it's worth saying over, line by line:

    "Anonymous said...Purim is coming up.

    We need a resolution.

    Those who live near Grove Street or Maple Avenue need to know where their children can go to deliver mishloach manos.

    As a family with teenage daughters, we need to know if Kol Yaakov bochurim should be allowed to dance in our house this year.

    When bochurim go shteeble hopping, do they go to Kol Yaakov?

    Do we drop by the purim shpiel?

    What if a shidduch is red with a Kol Yaakov bochur?

    Without any answers or at least progress reports, I think the de facto answer will be to isolate anyone having to do will Kol Yaakov.
    "

    Gevalt geshrigen, rabboisai hert vos di velt zogt: It is now a series of Halacha le'ma'aseh questions in Torah Jewry's eyes!!! How long shall you dither and dilly dally while "Rome"/Yiddishkeit burns???

    Take your own advice dearest Anonymous and those like you: "the de facto answer will be to isolate anyone having to do will Kol Yaakov" !!! Amen !!!

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  29. "But we are commanded only to have emunah in Hashem."

    Incorrect.

    Emunas Chachomim.

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  30. the question is why would Mordechai Suchard want to inherit this whole mess?

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  31. Regarding the kol yaakov talmidim, I would not trust anybody who learned "torah" from Tropper.

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  32. I wonder you even ask these questions, see answers below:

    As a family with teenage daughters, we need to know if Kol Yaakov bochurim should be allowed to dance in our house this year ?
    --NO, NO, NO,

    When bochurim go shteeble hopping, do they go to Kol Yaakov?
    --NO

    Do we drop by the purim shpiel?
    --NO

    What if a shidduch is red with a Kol Yaakov bochur?
    --Save the Damsel In Distress

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  33. Just to play devil's advocate the news announced this the white house cannot verify if the latest tape from Bin Laden is authentic or not. If one of the the best intelligence agencies cannot verify Bin Laden's voice , then how can we be so sure that the Tropper tapes are authentic?

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/White-House-Cant-confirm-bin-Laden-tape-authentic/articleshow/5495554.cms

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  34. 'Shlomo Zalman said...
    "But we are commanded only to have emunah in Hashem."

    Incorrect.

    Emunas Chachomim.'

    You are correct, and I apologize for indicating otherwise.

    There are different kinds of emunah. Emunas chachomim is an extension, not a replacement, for emunas Hashem.

    They work differently as well. If Avraham Aveinu had told Lot to bring his children for an Akeidah, we can argue whether Lot would have been me'chuyav to do so. I was taught that he would not.

    The emunah I speak about is total dedication and belief in the face of what we can't understand. Here, we have one suffake because different rabbonim say different things. Should we have listened to Shabbsai Tvi (C'V') had we davened in his shul?

    We have another suffake because the rabbonim themselves might be nogeiah bedavar.

    Thirdly, a rov of a shul is not necessarily a Talmid Chochom. Even if he is, his role changes when he is politically involved in a shul. I understand that I will take a lot of flak for this statement.

    Fourth, until recently tropper was hailed as a talmid chochom.

    So though there is the same terminology applied, and emunas chachomim certainly applies when we trust our chachomim and they are united, I did not apply it here. Here the shayaloh has to do with these very chachomim. That is a horrible thing to say, but it must be faced.

    If you have sat and learned under a godol for years after getting married, and the godol told you that you know the inyan, and then somebody who has a shteller says ,"Those who do not reside in a community ... should respect the fact that their understanding of the issues may be limited", you need to listen to yourself for halocho l'mayseh issues.

    I am sorry to say that right now I don't believe that we have a clear daas chachomim, where emunas chachomin would apply. You may feel that I am wrong, and I respect your opinion. Unfortunately, if nothing is resolved soon, your going your way and my going mine (meaning a schism in the frum community) will probably cause harm to the community when the practical results of our actions clash in the years to come.

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  35. Devil's Advocate said...
    "Just to play devil's advocate the news announced this the white house cannot verify if the latest tape from Bin Laden is authentic or not. If one of the the best intelligence agencies cannot verify Bin Laden's voice , then how can we be so sure that the Tropper tapes are authentic?"

    You can call tropper to bais din and get a voiceprint from him and compare it will all the tapes and videos that exist (not just the ones that have been published).

    The tropper tapes have been made directly from phone calls and are not subject to the degradation of low quality in transmission, reception and duplication.

    If the White House had locals who had learned in Bin Laden's yeshiva for decades authenticate the tape as definitely being him, they would be considered authenticated.

    With all these questions, NOW the White House's question is whether or not Bin Laden is alive or not. If not, then there are billions of dollars available to fake a tape (or take an old tape and claim that it is recent), in order to keep his movement alive.

    So a comparison of Bin Laden and tropper tapes is not really applicable IMO.

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  36. "he does sincerely present the "party" line "

    R. Eidensohn,

    I'm curious which "party" you feel he represents?

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  37. Devil's Advocate- How about Tropper be the one to prove his case?

    So far, he hasn't denied anything on the record.

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  38. While the White House did not officially authenticate the tapes they ( David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, P.J. Crowley ) treat it as it was already authenticated.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/24/AR2010012401231.html

    I do not think they ever officially authenticate it in a way of 'Yes, It is Osama'

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  39. alman said...

    "But we are commanded only to have emunah in Hashem."

    Incorrect.

    Emunas Chachomim.




    Hashochad yiaveir einei chachomim!

    Hashem does not take shochad.

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  40. how many people here in america know the voice ( not to mention arabic) of osama b ladin with all its nuances.

    on the other hand just about anyone who has had any contact with tropper can verify his voice and the distinct manner in which he speaks(his 'shprach')

    also there is video in troppers case.

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  41. If the chachomim say right is left, and left is right we follow them says the Gemara.

    Re: "Unfortunately, if nothing is resolved soon, your going your way and my going mine (meaning a schism in the frum community)"

    We've had such comments before... from the Reform, Karaites, Sadducees, etc. Like Ronald Reagan told the U.N., if you don't like America we will stand at the Hudson and wave farewell to the U.N. as it bravely sails away from us.

    Shraga - DT is referring to the Gedolim when he speaks of the "party line."

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  42. If the chachomim say right is left, and left is right we follow them says the Gemara.

    I hear this nonsense all the time, usually from starry eyes, newly minted BT.

    History has its own way dealing with those fools.

    In pre-war Europe the gedolim of that times told Jews to stay in Europe, those who listened to them died, those who listen to the Zionists and the Mizrachi rabbis and left Euorpe got to live.

    My grandmother family was very Chassidic, my father family were more modern. The side of my grandmother listened to their rabbi and stayed (their rabbi got to escape and has an Artscroll book about his escape) most of them perished.

    The side of my grandfather, most of them did not listen to anybody and left to wherever they got visa to, they got to live.

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  43. Did the same delegation of rabbonim also go to Staten Island to ask R' Reuvein why he is associated with shmutz like Tropper or to Bnei Brak to ask Rav Stern who runs Rav Wosner's beis din?

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  44. SZ said...

    Re: "Unfortunately, if nothing is resolved soon, your going your way and my going mine (meaning a schism in the frum community)"

    We've had such comments before... from the Reform, Karaites, Sadducees, etc. Like Ronald Reagan told the U.N., if you don't like America we will stand at the Hudson and wave farewell to the U.N. as it bravely sails away from us."

    Wow, now I'm an apikores! It would not have made a roshum on me had you not brought down Rav Reagan as a makor.

    So I guess if the Rabonnim are divided and I choose the ones whom I believe, then you are now aligned with the frum and I am a tzedoki.

    You must be the king of achdus. I tremble in your presence, moronu v'robbernu SZ.

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  45. If the chachomim say right is left, and left is right we follow them says the Gemara.

    It also says that if you burn a fire in the same place for 7 years a phoenix will rise from the flames.

    ReplyDelete
  46. It is simply to authinticate these recordings. They were taken directly from a phone conversation. Phone companies now can prvoide a time/date stamped print out of conversations. All that is needed is Shannon's phone number that she allegedly recied the calls on. Even if it was a cell phone, it would *ping* in a specific area which would also validate the general location as well as time of the conversations. Phone records. As simple as phone records and the 'powers that be' want us to think this is complicated and time consuming and nearly impossible. As long as men remain in yeshivas they arent out learning how the world operates and cannot dispute the Jewish authorities. I cannot play stupid and cheerful any longer.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Observer from AfarJanuary 25, 2010 at 5:20 AM

    I can relate to the concerns expressed by Anonymous at January 24, 2010 7:27 PM. I fear that we are being set up for a predetermined qua beis din that will kasher Tropper and his organizations. I don't think the rabbis behind R. Ribiat have any idea how little confidence there is in their pronouncements and conduct. It is not just the hamon am that is skeptical but the lion's share of sincere, respected members of their communities. We need some serious confidence building measures to let us know that our rabbis deserve their positions of leadership.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Rabbi Tropper is a Zaddik and is being set up by a billionaire who has the resources to set him up. Guma is the name of that man!


    All of you above who are speaking Lashon Haro against Rabbi Tropper will burn in geinom forever!!!

    Just leave Rabbi Tropper and his family alone, all he was tring to do was run a yeshiva, and help gerrim.

    I will leave you with these words, Do not JUDGE a man until you have been in his shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Monsey non-Tzaddik:

    Devorim 17:11

    לֹא תָסוּר מִן הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל

    Rashi:

    Even if they tell you that right is left and that left is right (you should listen to the sages) certainly if they tell you right is right and left is left.

    The Sifsei Chachomim explains that you are so sure that they are wrong, that they seem to be saying right is left. Still you must listen.

    The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 496) explains that we have a mitzvah to listen to the Chachomim of our generation. They have learned Torah day and night for years on end. They have put all of their energy into understanding each Halacha clearly. Therefore, Hashem has blessed them with the true and correct understanding of the Torah.

    The Sefer HaChinuch relates that people have many different opinions. If every one were allowed to act according to his opinion without listening to a Rav, the result would be a destruction of Torah Judaism and divisiveness within the nation. Am Yisrael would cease to exist.

    The Chazon Ish (found in Maaseh Ish Vol. 1 on the section about the holocaust) said, “There are indeed religious apikorsim nowadays — these apikorsum are those who say that the Gedolim were responsible for Jews dying in Europe (i.e. WWII), and those who celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut.”

    ReplyDelete
  50. so im the nebach for my mainstream ideas that dont see the light of the bloggers. so r eidensohn you and i agree you stand on the far end of chareidie jewrey

    ReplyDelete
  51. SZ wrote:

    Even if they tell you that right is left and that left is right (you should listen to the sages) certainly if they tell you right is right and left is left.
    ================
    The verse is describing a Sanhedrin or a rabbinic decree. The Chinuch's view is fact a minority opinion which is always brought out because he is the only source for equating contemporary rabbis to Sanhedrin.. Contemporary rabbinic authorities are not Sanhedrin.

    This is a subject which has be rehashed many many times.

    However you forgot the Yerushalmi
    ירושלמי (הוריות א:א דף מה טור ד): דתני יכול אם יאמרו לך על ימין שהיא שמאל ועל שמאל שהיא ימין תשמע להם תלמוד לומר ללכת ימין ושמאל שיאמרו לך על ימין שהוא ימין ועל שמאל שהיא שמאל

    You might think that if they tell you that right is left and left is right that you should listen to them? that is why it says to go right and left i.e., listen to them when they tell you that right is right and left is left.

    ReplyDelete
  52. "Do not JUDGE a man until you have been in his shoes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
    Repeating what I said when the writer left the same comment on another blog:
    This is what is so gauling and outrageous. We baalei batim do walk in his shoes. We go to work every day and are presented with temptations and opportunities regularly. The difference is that we have learned to resist those temptations. Yet we are only lowly baalei batim. The least we can expect from our rabbinic leadership is to exercise the same quality of restraint that we do and certainly, certainly to not solicit sex from those who turn to them for help.

    ReplyDelete
  53. " Actually, Leib Pinter stole hundreds of millions. He is also a
    chotay umachtee es horabim for selling treif meat & cheese
    sanwiches he claimed were kosher. See the 1973 NY Times
    interview with Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman who confronted
    Pinter about the treif."

    Could someone provide a link to this?

    ReplyDelete
  54. "However you forgot the Yerushalmi
    ירושלמי (הוריות א:א דף מה טור ד): דתני יכול אם יאמרו לך על ימין שהיא שמאל ועל שמאל שהיא ימין תשמע להם תלמוד לומר ללכת ימין ושמאל שיאמרו לך על ימין שהוא ימין ועל שמאל שהיא שמאל"

    Dear Daas Torah,

    Yes the Rabbis of the Yerushalmi obviously saw the absurdity of the left/right fallacy - but that didn't stop it becoming normative in Rabbinic Judaism. Since when has Yerushalmi been normative?
    In Artscroll Chumash for example, they mention only the sifri, omitting that there is an opposing view in the Yerushalmi. The only people who tout this Yerushalmi are the freethinking modern O .
    In any Haredi yeshiva, this idea is drummed into you as absolute power of the rabbis (which corrupts absolutely).

    ReplyDelete
  55. Yes the Rabbis of the Yerushalmi obviously saw the absurdity of the left/right fallacy - but that didn't stop it becoming normative in Rabbinic Judaism. Since when has Yerushalmi been normative?
    =============
    I don't know any rabbis - including Rav Sternbuch - who claim infalliblity. Rav Moshe Feinstein acknowledged he made mistakes and said his ruling were to be accepted only because his logic was accepted - he never said Daas Torah according to his son Rav Dovid. Even the Choftez Chaim made mistakes (See first teshuva of Rav Wosner)
    In what sense are you saying it is normative Rabbinic Judaism?

    My sons all went to mainstream chareidi yeshivos and they weren't taught such an idea.

    There is a concept that if a gadol makes a statement that his words are to be taken very seriously and treated with respect - but they are not infallible.

    A number of years ago, I was working on the subject and asked Rav Heineman if there was any problem of publishing such an article - he said that if I saw a need for it there was no problem.

    So both the idea - that there is an official psak that must automatically be followed as if it were from the Sanhedrin and that the pronouncement on all subjects are infallible - are not part of normative Rabbbinic Judaism - though there are some who claim it.

    I ran into this issue when I publish Daas Torah. There was someone from Artscroll who claimed that I was a danger to Klall Yisroel if I showed that there were multiple legitimate views. Rav Eliashiv told me that there was no problem and he didn't understand why it was even a question. Rav Moshe Shapiro also told me that there was no problem. (See introduction to Daas Torah)

    So yes - it is the elephant in the room - but in reality it is not normative.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Thank you Daas Torah -
    I htink there has been a sea-change since the passing of R 'Moshe Feinstein ztzl. In his day, there were multiple voices, and whilst he was the Posek par excellence, there were other great Torah personlatiies who offered diverse opinions.
    In the last 25 years thre has been a rise in kannoim and a single daas Torah view on everything.
    There has been lively debate on how valid Daas torah concept is. But the Ohr Sameach type world, and the Yated (Israeli version) are all propounding the single Daas Torah concept.
    An example of Gedolim making errors: R' Hutner wrote a Daas Torah perspective on the Holocaust in the Jewish Observer - a pretty normative publication. He originally claimed that the word "shoah" is not even a Hebrew word, but has been invented by the modern zionist perversion of Ivrit. However, Shoah is a word int he Tenach - it is in Mishlei, and is also in the small print at the end of Aleinu.
    So , as far as mainstream orthodoxy - or at least these publications which purport to be normative, then yes, it is a widely held concept.
    I also asked several Hassidim - Chabad and non Habad, if their rebbe could theoretically err. They denied such a possibilty.
    There is also another idea, that once something is written down, it is part o the Oral Torah and hence infallible. So, for example, sefer haTanya, because it has been around for several hundred years, is necessarily true. However, even R'Hayyim Volozhiner crticized that work, implying it contained pantheism and idolatry.
    Part of the problem is that many rabbis who teach in BT yeshivot are themselves BT's and educated in zealous BT factories - and do not have the courage or breadth of Torah knowledge to accept diverse opinions.
    Furthermore, Yerushalmi is hardly accepted as normative, and the few who have learned halacha from it have either been ostracised or simply ignored.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 25, 2010 at 3:06 PM

    "orthodoxjew said...so im the nebach for my mainstream ideas that dont see the light of the bloggers."

    Nope, you're the nebech because you have a selective memory, you only see what you like to see and you say half-truths in the wrong context that shows that you're really a nebech because you don't know the first thing about logic.

    "so r eidensohn you and i agree you stand on the far end of chareidie jewrey"

    Actually Rabbi Eidensohn is saying that if enough people get fed up with you he will ban and block you from posting on this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  58. DT claims "The Chinuch's view is fact a minority opinion"

    Who disagrees with the Chinuch (with sources)? And on what basis do you claim the Chinuch is a minority opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  59. DT claims "The Chinuch's view is fact a minority opinion"

    Who disagrees with the Chinuch (with sources)? And on what basis do you claim the Chinuch is a minority opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  60. SZ said...

    DT claims "The Chinuch's view is fact a minority opinion"

    Who disagrees with the Chinuch (with sources)? And on what basis do you claim the Chinuch is a minority opinion?
    =============
    Here is the Chinuch 1) he is not claiming infalliblity but social necessity 2) he is claiming that we must listen to contemporary gedolim the way Chazal are accepted. It is this last point that is a problem. It is understood that whatever a godol says must be obeyed. What other source says such a thing?

    Chinuch (#496): We are enjoined not to dispute the authorities of the Oral Law, not to change their words and not even to avoid fulfilling their commands regarding any aspect of the Torah. Concerning this the Torah (Devarim 17:11) says: You shall not turn aside from that which they tell you right or left. The Sifre (Devarim 154) explains: Not to turn aside—this is a Torah prohibition. The reason for this commandment is the fact that the views and understandings of people concerning issues are not identical. In other words, you will not find total agreement on an issue amongst a large group of people. G﷓d knew that if everyone was given the authority to follow his own interpretation of the Torah, each person would understand the Torah differently and there would be a large number of disagreements between Jews. Consequently instead of having a single Torah there would be many Torahs. (This is similar to what I wrote concerning the need for the principle of majority rule Mishpatim #75). Therefore G﷓d, the master of all wisdom, made our Torah of Truth complete by commanding us to obey the true understanding of our Sages. We are to obey not only our ancient sages but those of each generations. That is because the sages in each generation have received their words and drunk the water from their books and have toiled mightily day and night to understand the depths of their words and the wonder of their views. With this principle of agreement we have the path of truth to knowing the Torah, while without it we will be ensnared by our thoughts and poor understanding and not succeed at all. As an indication of the greatness and truthfulness of this mitzva, our sages (Sifre) have said that we are to obey our Torah authorities even if they say to you that right is left and the left is right. In other words, even if they are mistaken in one issue they are not to be disobeyed but their error must be followed. It is better to suffer from this one error in order to assure that everything is always under their authority. The alternative is that everyone follows his own opinion which will result in the destruction of the religion and anarchy and ultimately the complete loss of the entire people. Because of this the determination of the correct meaning of the Torah has been given to the Torah authorities and amongst these authorities the governing principle is that the minority must submit to the view of the majority for the same reason. And illustration of this principle is found in the astounding Bava Metzia (59b) concerning the dispute between R' Eliezar and the Oven of Achnai. It states that Eliyahu was asked what G﷓d was doing during the dispute. He answered that He smiled and said My children have triumphed over me. G﷓d was happy that His children followed the way of the torah and its command to always obey majority rule. This that it says there My children have triumphed over Me obviously is not meant literally—Heaven forbid! The explanation is that in this dispute the truth was in fact with R' Eliezar as was testified to by the Heavenly Voice (bas kol). Therefore even though the truth was with R' Eliezar but since his thinking was too profound for them and they did not want to concede to him even after the bas kol. Their claim was that the Torah clearly establishes the requirement to listen to the majority always whether their position is true or they are mistaken...

    ReplyDelete
  61. DT you didn't answer my question. I asked who (and with sources) disagrees with the Chinuch.

    And secondly I asked (which I see no response to either) is on what basis do you claim the Chinuch is a minority view?

    ReplyDelete
  62. SZ said...

    DT you didn't answer my question. I asked who (and with sources) disagrees with the Chinuch.
    ==================
    Disagreement does not typically mean citing a statement and saying it is wrong. It means that no one else says such a thing or they simple don't give such powers to contemporary rabbis.

    Chinuch is saying that contemporary rabbis are to be treated with the same authority as Chazal or Sanhedrin. No one else says that except in recent years and primarily in drashos.

    You do have the Chazon Ish saying about the Chofetz Chaim that he is like the Sanhedrin - but at the same time he constantly disagrees with him. Does that make the Chazon Ish a zakein mamre?! chas v'shalom.

    The Ramban, Rambam, Rashi Tosfos - through the Shulchan Aruch and up to modern poskim such as Igros Moshe do not make such an assertion. The absence of such an assertion in all these sources means simply that they didn't hold that this was so.

    See Kesef Mishna to Hilchos Mamrim chapter 2 where he asks the basis of authority of Tanaim and Talmud - he says because the people accepted them as authorities. Why didn't he say lo sasur?

    Rav Moshe Feinstein says that his power as a posek is because you have read his analysis and agree with it. He cites R' Akiva Eiger saying the same thing. Why didn't they just say - here are my rulings now obey them because of lo sasur?

    What posek states - you are a zakein mamre if you don't listen to my psak? Or you violate lo sasur if you don't comply with my rulings. There is no such statement.

    My point is so obvious that I am suprised that it has to be explained.

    ReplyDelete
  63. The Chinukh says that a pesaq is binding, whether it's from your LOR or from today's gedolei haposqim or from Chazal. It's a statement about authority in defining law. Far from finding it his own minority chiddush, I find the Chinukh's statement to be pretty humdrum and uncontraversial.

    I don't see anything about following a quorum of today's gedolim, nor about authority beyond halakhah.

    -micha

    ReplyDelete
  64. 2 excellent articles discussing the sources and debate over daas Torah

    http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/observ-on-daat.html

    http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/cohen_DaatTorah.pdf

    A particularly interesting source is "gemara in Bava Batra 12a and the Rishonim -- especially the Ritva- explicating that "prophecy was taken away from the prophets" but not from the "chachamim" (sages)."

    ReplyDelete
  65. Speaking of zoken mamrei, there are people today considered by the hamon am to be gedolim who have perverted the Torah to cover up for pedophiles who have spent the last 25 years destroying children.

    There was awareness around the time that R' Moshe & R' Yaakov were niftar. These gedolei olam and the ones before them would never have acted so shamefully.

    So even going with the daas yochid of the Chinuch, there appear to be "gedolim" today we should definitely not listen to.

    ReplyDelete
  66. http://www.5tjt.com/news/read.asp?Id=5650

    ... residents of Miami Beach were addressed by Rabbi Kamenetzky, Rabbi Weisbord, and Rabbi Zwiebel on the topic of “Honesty Is the Only Policy: Strengthening Our Reputation in the Eyes of The World.”

    (Like covering up for Tropper?)

    Rabbi Moshe Matz, executive director, Agudath Israel of Florida, delivered an impassioned speech on Agudas Yisrael as an effective vehicle for defending and promoting da’as Torah and gedolei Yisrael.

    ReplyDelete
  67. DT you didn't answer my question. I asked who (and with sources) disagrees with the Chinuch.
    ==================
    Disagreement does not typically mean citing a statement and saying it is wrong. It means that no one else says such a thing


    Since when is no one else disputing a Rishon considered disagreeing with the said Rishon. I've never heard such an assertion previously.

    It would be fair to assume if a Rishon made a statement that no one agreed with, someone somewhere someplace would indicate I disagree or such Rishon is mistaken.

    This did not happen.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Observer of the "Truth"

    As I answered you on the other blog,

    at least be man enough to post your real name and not lurk as an anonymous troll.

    You DID NOT read my post clearly, he is innocent until proven guilty. This is America last I remember. AGAIN HE WAS SET UP, FRAMED, CON JOB! how can you be so sure it is him on the tapes? Rabbi Tropper told me personally that he is a victim of Guma's multi million dollar frame up job, why do you think Guma is now in a psychiatric hospital.

    A. Because he is nuts.
    B. Rabbi Tropper found out it was him, and Guma had a panic attack.

    The TRUTH will soon all be exposed, and you will all be knocking on Rabbi Tropper's door BEGGING for mecheela and mercy!

    ReplyDelete
  69. Over the years, all the articles on Pinter have been on the blogs of JWB, UOJ and R' Yudel Shain.

    The old NY Times articles about the treif, etc, require a paid archive subscription but someone ponied up the money and posted them on UOJ. The Congresswoman couldn't believe what a mechutzef Pinter was when she confronted him. There is also a NY Times article about the suspicious "heist" of jewelry from Pinter's store where his shutaf was "kidnapped" and dumped out of a van 3 days later. When the shutaf bentched hagomel at his shul by Ave R & East 28th, the mispalelim were booing and hissing at what they believed to be berocho levatolo. The FBI could not prove fraud but the insurance carrier denied the claim. There is a book written by a former NY Daily News reporter that has a chapter on Pinter's massive fraud on the US Education Dept and bribery of Senator Dan Flood. That was the first time that Pinter went to jail.

    When it came to the recent mortgage fraud, the story was first covered by American Banker Magazine when it was only thought to be $44 million. It has since been revealed to be at least $150 million and the figure could rise based on how many more fictitious shell companies the Pinter family created to hide looted assets. A majority of the Black people by the way who lost their homes to foreclosure in Brooklyn and Queens must really love Yidden after Pinter was behind it.

    ReplyDelete
  70. It never ceases to amaze how Tropper's BT following is living in an alternate universe and blindly adheres to whatever kooky conspiracy theories he cranks out against his enemies.

    Refuah shleymah!

    ReplyDelete
  71. Y-

    why has tropper not made any public statement, and in hsi resignation he admitted to moral failings?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Daat Torah,

    Not getting involved in the whole discussion, just interjecting on this particular comment:

    "See Kesef Mishna to Hilchos Mamrim chapter 2 where he asks the basis of authority of Tanaim and Talmud - he says because the people accepted them as authorities. Why didn't he say lo sasur?"

    Kessef mishna there talks about the Shoftim or Beit Din (or chachamim) of that day having the ability to argue with the authorities of the previous generation regarding 13 Middos shehatorah nidreshet, where Torah states that one follows in this instance the Beis din of the particular generation. In this context, KM comments,why Ammoraim would not be able to argue with Tannaim on these issues and responds that"kiblu" that theywould would not argue over their predecessors.


    But this does not speak about a member of a generation not being obliged to listen to his Shofet, in a way of loy tassur; after all the very same halacha in that particular rambam, clealy states and invokes "elhashofet asher yihyeh bayomim hohem" which is FOLLOWED in the next pssukim with the words LOY TASSUR!

    In short: this KM does not minimize the need to listen to shofet bayamim hahem, but on the contrary, gives them widerlatitude to argue with previous generation over drashot hamikraot etc. giving strong powers to contemporay rabbis.

    Again, i'm not commenting on the rest of the discussion, just on the reference to this KM.

    best regards,
    Roni

    ReplyDelete
  73. Rabbi Tropper told me personally that he is a victim of Guma's multi million dollar frame up job,

    He told you and you believe him ?
    You are so gullible! Tropper had hezkas shakran and chazkas menuval even before he was exposed (sorry for the pun).

    Shannon is like Yael and Yeudit who defeated their predator

    ReplyDelete
  74. Not every psak of R' Moishe was accepted as minhag but we at least go according to someone else's psak.

    We are wrongly getting sucked into a useless argument with these yeshivishe drey kep who think we have to listen to every pronouncement from the Agudah and Tropper affiliates.

    Hamayvin yovin that since 1986, the biggest gedolim were not on the Moetzes, something they purposely avoided. And these gedolim were against so many illogical Agudah decisions I don't even know where to begin.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Monsey:

    Bottomline is I am obligated to obey and listen to my Rabbi. If he is so guilty why does he still have his smeecha's from all the great sages,

    If you look on Rabbi Tropper's Wikipedia page you will see his many impressive accolades.

    Rabbi Chaim Pinchus Scheinberg. He received four semichas: from Rabbi Serayah Deblitzky, a student of the Chazon Ish; Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, former Sephardi chief rabbi of Israel; Rabbi Betzalel Zolty, Ashkenazi chief rabbi of Jerusalem; and Rabbi Elazar Shach, a rosh yeshiva at Ponevezh Yeshiva.[1]


    Now granted some of the above may be dead, but their emissaries can just as easily yank his smeecha is they thought he was so guilty.

    Be an American and a Jew and do not judge this man until he is proven guilty!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Rav Eidonsohn
    You made a comment that R Chaim Volozhin said that the Tanya contains Pantheism and Idolatry. That's a pretty big statement. Do you have a makor for that Id like to see that inside.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Rav Eidonsohn
    You made a comment that R Chaim Volozhin said that the Tanya contains Pantheism and Idolatry. That's a pretty big statement. Do you have a makor for that Id like to see that inside.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Blogger Seekeroftruth said...

    Rav Eidonsohn
    You made a comment that R Chaim Volozhin said that the Tanya contains Pantheism and Idolatry
    ==============
    I never said such a thing. It was said by someone else

    ReplyDelete
  79. The following is not meant to be sarcastic or disrespectful of this forum or its members. It is something, I think worth considering and I say that because I have heard this 'speculation' from one who seems to know Tropper is indeed guilty and that his fall means the fall of others, such as a rabbi in Houston formerly associated with Orand's request for conversion and one now living in Israel of the kiruv persuasion. I believe if you check yiu will find he was a spoksperson at one or more of EJF's seminars.

    So, to protect the most, the least might just be exonerated. Translation: Tropper will rise from the ashes. Two users met up with each other and both, in the end, get a consolation prize.

    Shannon Orand got her 'conversion' to spare further embarassment to the aforementioned and other rabbonim. As a non-Jew, she had serious criminal accusations agains Tropper that would have put Jewish laundry out to dry in the secular world. If pursued, well...consider the consequences. As a convert, she now falls under the Jewish court system. She cannot be a witness. She is a person not taken seriously in the Jewish world so anything she wants to put out there now is now moot.

    So i seems the saying "keep your enemies close" is no new to the Jewish world. How ironic that this woman was beaten at her own game.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I could understand someone who identifies himself on this blog criticizing others for not doing so, but how can someone who uses the moniker Y criticize others for not providing their name? Is Y seeking to attack people privately? Why would he want to know who they are?
    With slight modifications, my response to Y was as follows:
    I feel for you, Y, I really do. I hope that when you come to your senses, you will recognize that Judaism is perfect, but not all Jews or even so-called rabbis are.
    There is 100% support for Ms. Orand in her community. She is known to be credible -- even though she is a very private person.
    OTOH, while Tropper is a very public person and is well known, the only people who are still with him are those who are related to him, those who are dependent on him for financial support and the few like you who nebech don't know better.
    Forget Guma. If Tropper were innocent, he would have already spent a few thousand dollars to get an expert's opinion stating that the audiotapes and videotape are fake. The fact that he has not done so indicates that he knows them to be real.
    Try to think critically and independently of Tropper.

    ReplyDelete
  81. As far as I know Tropper is still the owner of HORIZONS BAIS ACHIEZER INC. (EIN=13-4077539) , Dovid Jacobs is Executive director.

    Until Tropper file Transfer of Ownership form with the state he still the owner of the above corporation, still sign the checks and still have all those rabbis falling in line.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Beaten at her own game? You assume that Ms. Orand wanted to be in the public eye and pursue Tropper legally. There is nothing to support that. Every indication is that she wanted desperately to become a Jew for herself and for her children and to go back to her private life as a Jew and as a mother, and she did just that. (Besides, Tropper would have succeeded on a motion to dismiss under NY law, just as Tendler did, so she wasn't beaten at all by anything that she did.)
    The suggestion that R. Wender would fall if Tropper would fall is preposterous. R. Wender didn't have anything to do with Tropper's personal shenanigans.
    I sense that Tropper's MO is to seek to besmirch others, e.g., Ms. Orand, R. Wender, the Israeli bet din, Guma -- even if there is no basis for doing so. A siman for anyone having anything even tangentially to do with Tropper is: watch your back.

    ReplyDelete
  83. VERITAS AND OBSERVER FROM AFAR, like I answered you on 5TJT:

    Where do you get your information that S. Orand has 100% support of her community.

    Fact 1. The Rabbi in Hosuton cancelled her geerot, and through her case out. she had to go to 3 radical rabbi's in Israel to convert her.

    Fact 2. She herself said on another blog.

    "We are beginning to be ostracized from our community, and I have been banned from entering the day school where my children attend. "

    This is what you call enjoying 100% support from her community??

    Oh and by the way I DO think critically and independantly, That is how I know all this information. Just you wait and see the truth will come out in the end, it always does, and WHEN it does you will be on your hands and knees begging Rabbi Tropper for rachameem!


    AND AS TO WHY I AM ONLY GOING BY Y. IT IS VERY SIMPLE, EVERYONE IS BLAMING EVERYTHING THAT I WRONG IN THE FRUM WORLD NOW ON RABBI TROPPER, HE IS THE #1 SCAPEGOAT, SINCE I AM HIS STUDENT, I AM LUMPED WITH THAT. AND AS I AM SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT IF I REVEAL MY FULL NAME, MY JOB AND SHIDDOUCH PROSPECTS WILL PLUMMET. AS SOON AS RABBI TROPPER IS VINDICATED, I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO TYPE MY FULL NAME!

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  84. Y

    Most of the information you have stated is wrong.

    Rabbi Wender himself wrote a letter which is posted on the blog which contradicts what you say.

    I suggest you get yourself some strong tranquilizers - you will need them soon.

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  85. ..."Beaten at her own game? You assume that Ms. Orand wanted to be in the public eye and pursue Tropper legally..."

    Not at all. Having her actions public was the last thing she wanted so when Tropper (as suggested on the tapes) wanted her to service other rabbis...she cried foul and tried to save herself. If she was thinking of earning more money with a slw suit against Tropper and/or EJF, the Beis Din stopped that with a conversion.

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  86. Observer from AfarJanuary 26, 2010 at 1:52 AM

    Limbo said, "If she was thinking of earning more money with a slw suit against Tropper and/or EJF, the Beis Din stopped that with a conversion."
    It appears that you may not have read the portion of my comment concerning the Tendler case. That case was thrown out because of a NY statute that bars recovery for voluntarily engaging in sex. Any similar lawsuit by Ms. Orand would similarly have been thrown out. (1) There appears not to have been physical contact between Ms. Orand and Tropper. (2) The NY statute would have been a bar to any recovery.
    So you see, Limbo, I don't know what you hope to gain by arguing that Ms. Orand lost out on a legal claim by become a Jewess, but your argument such as it is, doesn't hold any water. (BTW, the fact that Tendler's accuser was a Jewess didn't preclude her from filing her civil lawsuit.)

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  87. We mention Leib Pinter every day in our Tefilos.

    V'Atah Kodosh Yoshaiv....

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  88. ...'That case was thrown out because of a NY statute that bars recovery for voluntarily engaging in sex. Any similar lawsuit by Ms. Orand would similarly have been thrown out. (1) There appears not to have been physical contact between Ms. Orand and Tropper..."
    ------
    Yea, I read it. Before you get to "it appears"...there has to be a complaint and investigation which was not made by Orand in secular court. According to her ever-changing story she was coherced, blackmailed, forced?...whatever constitutes 'unwanted sexual acts" which were not evident on the tapes. I will not speculate what a court of law would or would not do as it is not an issue now. Perhaps it wuld have been thrown out of court but certainly not before all the players were rounded up and dragged into the scandle which as of now remains between the two parties, Tropper/Orand despite statements (again on tape) of others being involved.

    I think this is the point where I have to make clear I am not a Tropper supporter. I think I have a better chance of winning a mega-billion dollar lott than he has at being innocent. I am trying to point out there is much more at stake here than a woman's repuation' or a rabbi's guilt in ONE alleged act.

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  89. DAAS TORAH.

    YOU will need tranquilizers, when the truth all comes out and you realize you have to fly down to the USA to give Rabbi Tropper an apology. I bet if you lived in NY you wouldn't have the guts to publish half the lies you do about him.

    And guess what, I speak for every student and person who knows Rabbi Tropper in REAL life , not just someone who knows OF him or has heard of him on the internet and is pre-judging him.

    And as to why he does not PUBLICLY come out and issue press releases saying that he is innocent, it is very simple, Rabbi Tropper is a humble man, he has mentioned he does not want to bring limelight to his family, and would prefer till all this craziness just blows over.

    Why am I taking a stand now, after reading this blog for almost a month? Because I saw crazy comments in this thread in particular, about how people are questioning if they should ban Kol Yaakov students from their home or from marrying their daughters, this is very dangerous and borders on seenas cheenan!! And despite me asking Rabbi Tropper if he would like me to defend him on these blogs, guess what? he said no that I should not bother, this just goes to show you that he does not care about all the lies, because he knows the that when all the smoke and dust settles, he will be vindicated 1000%!

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  90. Observer from AfarJanuary 26, 2010 at 3:36 AM

    I don't know how Y expects to hide his association with Tropper from prospective employers and shidduchim by using simply Y here. I suspect that several of the commenters here are none other than Tropper himself.
    Nevertheless, once again, my modified response to Y:
    Y, what you refer to as facts are simply Tropper's deceptions.
    The rabbi in Houston did not cancel Ms. Orand's conversion. He postponed it because of the very public controversy that erupted around her. The rabbis who converted Ms. Orand are highly respected rabbis of the religious zionist camp. If you have to apply the term radical to any of the rabbis involved, in fits Tropper perfectly.
    The school asked Ms. Orand not to come to school for a limited number of days while the media that camped out for her was disruptive to the operation of the school. This had nothing to do with how welcome Ms. Orand is otherwise made to feel at the school, the shul, the largest shul in the city that she doesn't go to :), and the community in general.
    The indication that you are not thinking independently is that you are spouting Tropper's tropes. If you are not Tropper himself, do yourself a favor and run away from him as fast as you can. Run into any other yeshiva around you in Monsey and ask for help.

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  91. Eddie: "I also asked several Hassidim - Chabad and non Habad, if their rebbe could theoretically err. They denied such a possibilty."

    "Rebbe Nachman once said, 'The world labors under the misconception that a tzaddik cannot make a mistake, and that if he makes a mistake he is no longer a tzaddik. I say this is not so. A tzaddik can make a mistake. The mistake remains a mistake and the tzaddik remains tzaddik.'" (Chayei Moharan, I believe).

    As an example, "He also said of certain Chassidic leaders of his day, 'The tzaddikim are making a mistake by praying after the z'man tefillah.'" (Chayei Moharan 487).

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  92. At 91 comments and counting, we are missing the point. Aside from the adults, there are countless kids out there, modern orthodox, yeshivish, heimish, off the derech etc. and so forth who are WAITING for someone to make a statement. They are disillusioned, confused, disappointed. They are not nit picking at finer points of the Rambam or if Monsey has a Vaad HaRabbonim. They deserve and NEED an answer. Even if it is something as far out as...

    If one who sees a 'sotah' questioned is required to become a nazir because of the detrimental influence it may have on him, we have all been exposed to the 'sotah' of Rabbi Tropper - whether it is true or not. Perhaps there should be a ban on drinking this Purim? It may sound radical but at least it will get across a message that yes, this was awful, whether it happened or not, just the fact that someone who acts as a Rosh Yeshiva, Rabbi and Mentor was accused of such things should make the Jewish community shudder. A world-wide and Jewish wide shudder.

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  93. aha so now every dropout or guy dissinchanted with yidishkiet has a new excuse " the rabbis kept silent during the tropper scandel" funny the ehrliche yidden out there are not busy with this . p.s. i find it ironic that the uoj blogger who has attached the idea of daas torah many times and has called gedolie olam all types of names. well who was the originator of the modern day idea of daas torah rav elchonon , ironicly rav elchonon is called by uoj a murderer. this is a special for the guy in the pink coat

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  94. if we look at koveitz mamorim from rav elchonon we will see the idea of daas torah elaborated on (i shuder to think what a kodosh elyon like rav elchonon`s response would have been to books of the like written by nosson slifkin ) ok i know all the haters are going to pop out of the wood work and tell me they kept quite by pinter and this one and that one maybe they only say something when its a direct takolah and affects all of klal yisroel and are not into shaming already shamed famlies

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  95. "I suspect that several of the commenters here are none other than Tropper himself."

    I don't think so. Why should Tropper be interested in this blog? He knows what he did. Why should he start pinkt in the "lion's den" (from his point of view) to defend himself?

    He knows better than that. He preaches to his fans and explains them why everything is just a misunderstanding and how he was "done in".

    In the past, "recipients and publicity" suspected roni of being Tropper. It turned out that Roni was a Tropper-fan, betrayed by his Rabbi, misguided by his loyalty to Tropper.

    As far as I understood form previous posts, "orthodoxjew" is a Baal T'shuva who still harbours the illusion that the hareidi world is as it should be and is very proud of what he learned so far (kol hakavod) but does not always use it in proper context (but this can be said of many posters here, BT or not).

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  96. To Y:

    You should listen to your rosh yeshiva and not post here. You are giving confirmation to those you say are wrong.

    People are saying that tropper does a Jim Jones on those he recruits, that many of his talmidim have no idea what it means to be a yiras shomayim and have no idea how to learn. You are proving that true.

    You start your argument with an unprovable argument about Rav Eidensohn's courage.

    You then say you speak for everyone who knows tropper in real life. That is patently false. Tropper has been an outcast, not just in Monsey, for decades. In a separate scandal, reports are coming out alleging that he forged letters of receipt from gedolim. If they are proven, then even his heter mayoh rabbonim will need to be verified. He might not even be married! You should be quietly weighing every thing you hear and see, not just taking a position and spouting.

    To state that he is a humble man means you don't know what humility is. Even his supporters don't consider him humble. So your hashkofo is suspect.

    To be told by your rosh yeshiva not to defend him and then publicly defend him shows that you are missing a lot of understanding about a relationship of talmid and rosh yeshiva. To indicate that you are defending him despite the fact that he wants to keep his family out of the limelight shows vast selfishness. Your rosh yeshiva is not a nebichal who needs one such as you defending him. You are doing something for yourself in defiance of his wishes.

    To say that something "borders on seenas cheenan!!" is to make a meaningless doublespeak statement in the name of halachah.

    What people see when you say these things is this:

    Here is someone who can act like a rabid dog when necessary, which is probably why he was recruited. Here is someone who never learned how to act in a frum manner or how to learn, and does not check with his local community if his indoctrination into the the frum way of thinking is correct when he sees indications that it may not be. Here is someone who is panicking that maybe the way he was taught is wrong and all this time and sacrifice was spent for nothing.

    I would feel for you if you handled it differently. Instead of blindly lashing out, try some time in a mainstream bais medrash until people start respecting your abilities. Then you can talk. Until then you are an outsider who has followed one person who is far from mainstream. Now he is involved in scandals. Investigate. Find out whether people think he is an odom gadol or just a money man.

    But the way you are acting now just reinforces that people won't want you (and by extension others from your yeshiva) in their homes and near their daughters on Purim. Your world view is krum and irrational, and I assume you are sober at the moment.

    Your actions promote panic concerning whom he is letting loose into the yeshiva community.

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  97. Vehaya Machanecha Kadosh (Deuteronomy 23:14)January 26, 2010 at 8:49 PM

    I cannot add anything to the anonymous comment at January 26, 2010 6:55 PM but I would say that I am not sure that Tropper’s talmidim can be counted in a minyan.

    At least for me, if there are only 10 men with one of them a Koll Yaakov talmid I will walk out until another person come in.

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  98. As an outsider these posts are hilarious and very entertaining. It's a soap opera. I don't think this is what the Chosen People are meant to stand for, though.

    I wonder what people all over the world who read this blog and others think of the Jewish People? I think it's time for some self-respect.

    Whatever!

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  99. Anonymous man.

    First of all Rabbi Tropper just said he would prefer if I did not post or go on this blog to defend him, he did not say I absolutely Cannot, if he did I would not have obviously. the fact that he told me not to bother, to me showed how he was not worried about his kavod. He is not a G-d or H-shem and you are wrong that his students follow him like jim jones. I am not, repeat NOT drinking the kool aid. He is not a controlling man at all.

    It is however funny how you speak out f both corners of your mouth, on the one hand you accuse me of not listening to my rabbi's orders, on the other hand you accuse me of blindly listening to everything he tells me to do like jim jones, well which one is it????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    He is very easy going and loving to all. And him and his wife Leba have a very open home for guests during shabos and the week.

    You should learn a thing or two from him and his wife.

    All you statements start with

    "people are saying" or "I heard on the internet" this my friend is all hearsay!!

    You should move to Iran, where due process and innocent until proven guilty also do not exist, as it sure does not exist for you. You are so quick to vilify a man who has spent his life work helping the innocent and helpless.

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  100. more on daass Torah

    http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2009/10/daas-torah-revisited.html

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  101. Yeshaya,

    that's a good R'Nachman I am aware of, thanks.

    Interstingly, Habad dislike R'Nachman, perhaps because he was not into Tzaddikism in the way they are.

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  102. "DT claims "The Chinuch's view is fact a minority opinion"

    Who disagrees with the Chinuch (with sources)? And on what basis do you claim the Chinuch is a minority opinion?

    January 25, 2010 3:38 PM"

    I got a kick out of this comment.

    It's not just a "minority opinion;" he's a daat yachid.

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  103. "First of all Rabbi Tropper just said he would prefer if I did not post or go on this blog to defend him, he did not say I absolutely Cannot, if he did I would not have obviously. the fact that he told me not to bother, to me showed how he was not worried about his kavod."

    Again, this shows a lack of understanding how to think a subject through. You said he did not wish his family in the limelight. Did that suddenly go away? tropper is an elui, but his strength is focusing on single lines of text and he often ignores the big picture. He passes that on to his students.

    BTW, iff he were innocent, he would not be allowed to be moichel on kovod hatorah. It would not be about his kovod.

    "He is not a controlling man at all."

    Because you say that, it is true? He is extremely controlling. The whole thrust of EJF was to control geirus. His penchant for control is legendary. In order to be a Jim Jones, he does not have to do much except find people like you who need a spiritual leader at any cost.

    "It is however funny how you speak out f both corners of your mouth, on the one hand you accuse me of not listening to my rabbi's orders, on the other hand you accuse me of blindly listening to everything he tells me to do like jim jones, well which one is it????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

    Okay, one step at a time: You see him as you need to see him, as a leader who is g-dlike, humble, the defender of weak and helpless. The fact that you do what you want without regard to his feelings, even though you look up to him so, shows that you don't have a strong concept of Jewish morality. It's not rocket science, but it does require two stages of thought.

    "He is very easy going and loving to all. And him and his wife Leba have a very open home for guests during shabos and the week."

    And do you often see local neighbors there, or their children? Open your eyes. But you made your point. He likes to entertain.

    "You should learn a thing or two from him and his wife."

    Sorry, not into that.

    "All you statements start with "people are saying" or "I heard on the internet" this my friend is all hearsay!!"

    Nonsense. First of all, in that post, only one statement started with "People are saying" and it came directly after the statement "You are giving confirmation to those you say are wrong." The next statement continued by stating what those people are saying. I was telling you that you are making things much worse for yourself by showing your lack of self-control, and you continue to do so. Nowhere in that post did I say I heard anything on the internet. Your using a fabrication as an argument shows what you are learning there. You did the same thing before when you claimed that you speak for everyone who knows tropper.

    "You should move to Iran, where due process and innocent until proven guilty also do not exist, as it sure does not exist for you. You are so quick to vilify a man who has spent his life work helping the innocent and helpless."

    Once again you spout what you want to be true as a factual argument. You do not know that I am quick about anything. The fact is that I have been in the yeshiva world for a reasonable amount of time, have met many who have been hurt by him, and have been very slow to judge. You also do not know that he has spent his life helping the innocent and helpless. Many people, myself included, have spoken with the innocent and helpless whom he has victimized.

    You either do not know what you are talking about, or you don't care.

    Your posts are irrational so I will not answer any more of them. I believe you are just attempting to uncover the identities of those who speak out against this guy, who has a long history of vindictiveness, before bais din convenes.

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  104. "I got a kick out of this comment.

    It's not just a "minority opinion;" he's a daat yachid."

    I got a kick out of that response.

    Not only is he not a daat yachid, no one even disagrees with The Chinuch!

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  105. "You should learn a thing or two from him and his wife."

    Sorry, not into that.


    Funny...

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  106. ""I got a kick out of this comment.

    It's not just a "minority opinion;" he's a daat yachid."

    I got a kick out of that response.

    Not only is he not a daat yachid, no one even disagrees with The Chinuch!

    "



    It is clear that ignorance is a rampant problem. No one ascribes power of Sanhedrin to gadol hador (or gedolei hador) in our times except the Sefer HaHinnuch. The rest limit that to the end of the Sanhedrin and Bet din Hagadol, although opinions differ over how far that lasted; Rambam I believe says there was a bet din hagadol up until Ravina and Rav Ashi. Clearly the chasimat haShas was a historical event of significance that changed the Jewish reality dramatically (as was the end of the Sanhedrin before it). Sefer HaHinnuch is the only authority that extends the Sanhedrin's legal power beyond not only Ravina and rav ashi (stam of the gemara and possibly last official bet din hagadol, although this is difficult since they were not in E'Y), but also past the chasimat hashas itself and including to our present day. You are making a stupid argument. Where else can you find that the legal power of Sanhedrin is embodied by the "gadol hador" except in Sefer hahinnuch? It is a tremendous chiddush. Saying no one else mentions it proves my point. It's something 'unheard of.'

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  107. Furthermore, the source for the statement of the Sefer HaHinnuch in his above-mentioned tremendous chiddush is anybody's guess.

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  108. No one disputes the Sefer Hachinuch.

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  109. No one even raises the topic the Chinukh does. (as our host explained the Chinukh. You may have seen I disagreed, and see the Chinukh as speaking about halachic authority even after the Sanhedrin.) Not even in passing, as a given to proving another point.

    It's more correct to conclude that the whole notion wasn't even on their radar.

    -micha

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  110. It wasn't even on the radar, since what the Chinuch describes was always taken as a so obvious truth.

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  111. SZ:

    You skipped part of my post... "Not even in passing, as a given to proving another point." If it were an obvious given, then the authority of rabbanim on non-Torah issues would have showed up somewhere, perhaps in a teshuvah, in parshanus, as part of a discussion of something else.

    And again, I still see no indication that the Chinukh is talking about authority other than pesaw anyway. I'm just bolstering our host's point, not my own.

    You're bringing a "How do we know Moshe wore a Yarmulka? Shteit 'Vayeilekh Moshe' -- hayitachein Moshe Rabbeinu alav hashalom went somewhere without a yarmulka???" type argument.

    -micha

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  112. Your reference to Moshe and a yarmulka is simply invalid sophistry that doesn't advance your argument.

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  113. SZ:

    1- You do write your conclusion into the data. No one else comments, so you conclude they must have agreed. I said it with some sophistry, but it's true nonetheless.

    2- You didn't touch my actual point either time -- no rishon or non-contemporary acharon mentions the Chinukh's idea even in building an argument showing a different point. That's a pretty solid case against "they took it for granted".

    As are my comments on earlier posts showing where "das Teireh" (as opposed to this blog of the same name) came from, and how the Baal haTanya responds to what he clearly saw as this new thing chassidim were doing.

    Das Teireh, the concept that gedolei Torah are thereby less likely to err on other topics (not to be confused with seeking their advice about Torah, or about the possible requirement to turn to them for leadership even without any special abilities), is an amalgam of the Chassidishe Rebbe circa 3rd generation chassidus, a thought of R' Yisrael Salanter, and further development by Litvisher gedolim during the period between the two wars.

    The Chinukh talks about halakhah, even as quoted here. Given that, there is no maqor whatsoever until WWI.

    -micha

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