Tuesday, November 11, 2014

בית דין חרדי באולטימטום למקובל המתחזה: תפרוש מעולם הקבלה או שההקלטה תפורסם

Rotter Forum
Comments on Shtieble report these rumors as untrue. People claim Rabbi Zilberstein denying any such court decision. 


ליאור עמרן
היה חשוב לי לשתף
התקשרתי לבית הדין של הרב זילברשיין בחולון, והם שאלו את הרב זילברשיין ואמרו שכבוד הרב לא הוציא פסק שכזה מעולם נגד החלבן, ושהדברים שנאמרו בשמו הם שקר וכזב.
הטלפון של בית הדין של הרב זילברשיין הוא
03-5015809
על כן האמירה הבאה באתר היא מזוייפת:
הפוסק החרדי הרב יצחק זילברשטיין נכנס לעובי הקורה בשבוע האחרון, בית הדין החרדי התכנס והחליט האיש חייב להיות מוקא מהציבור החרדי :”ובערת הרע מקרבך”


Consequently I have removed the item until this is clarified.
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background information about the mekubal
Jewish Press
vosizneias
Daas Torah Blog
Yeshiva World News

48 comments :

  1. The skeptic in me will say Kabbalah is Shabbetai Zvi and Shabbetai Zvi is Kabbalah. R' Gershom Scholem says that the Hassidic leaders were similar to the Sababteans, and still performed weird acts, but not to the same extent as the Sabbateans, eg they had the concept of tikkun and descent into impurity etc.

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  2. what is the purpose of this post? what is D.T. trying to prove? whose picture is that?

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  3. The picture is of Haim Cohen, the kabbalist under discussion. (the links on the bottom tell of some of his other exploits) I presume the point is to warn people not to fall for this sort of thing.

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  4. Incidentally, this is not a new trick. R. Ya'akov Ettlinger (Shu"t Binyan Tzion 154) discuses a similar case from 1859.

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  5. Eddie - does "the skeptic in me" mean that there is also a "non-skeptic" in you?

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  6. "Rotter" or "Shtieble" do not look like very reliable news sources. I hope you have verified this elsewhere before posting. Is that correct?

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  7. In The VIN article, he says "“I know who the lamed vov tzadikim are in our generation, but I have no permission to say".
    Actually, there are 36,000 reshaim, swindlers and menuvalim who pretend to be the hidden tzaddikim. As if Esihet Ish is a small matter. As if violating one of the 3 laws that are Yehareg v'lo yaavor can somehow be sidelined and brought out as a tikkun.
    The Navi says something which explains why things like this occur:
    Isaiah 44: כה מֵפֵר אֹתוֹת בַּדִּים, וְקֹסְמִים יְהוֹלֵל; מֵשִׁיב
    חֲכָמִים אָחוֹר, וְדַעְתָּם יְסַכֵּל. 25 That frustrateth the tokens of
    the imposters, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward,
    and maketh their knowledge foolish;

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  8. First mekubal I've ever seen to look like a retired accountant.

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  9. Any tzadik, leader, kabbalist, rabbi etc. that removes himself from proper association, respect and communication with other Torah leaders - is suspect and is susceptible of falling into all types problems.

    Who knows, maybe this guy started off "leshem Shomayim". But, he was smarter than the rest - he understood what they didn't understand. No one was able to advise him, guide him or rebuke him. Just about every leader in trouble had this trait.


    Proper Torah leaders consult with other talmidei chachomim, all the time.

    (What's shocking to me is that in the evolution threads DT repeatedly quoted a rabbi who explained why his opinion is superior to that of other Rabbonim, since they don't know much about science while he does know science.



    DT has in the past documented several problematic deviations this rabbi made, despite all other respectable poskim disagreeing with him. I would imagine that his sense of superiority and "understanding what they don't" is what caused him to deviate - despite his brilliant mind and true idealism. Why would his claim that "he knows what they don't" give his opinion any more credence. I can't understand why his opinion of his superiority was quoted.)

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  10. Before i answer that, I wish to know which "Chaim" is asking the question!

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  11. He's a milkman not a an accountant.

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  12. Milkmen have been extinct a few decades now.

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  13. Even earlier than that. The Gemara discusses such a case from the Babylonian exile, with two false prophets and the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar.

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  14. it is hard to keep track of these corrupt rabbis. Last week mikve scandal, this week milkman scandal... and it is only yom shlishi.

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  15. I don't know if this is true or false and time will tell. What I do know is that you seem to have very little to go on. Im surprised (maybe I shouldn't be) that you would jump to smear the name of a Jew who was assumed to be a very holy person who helped many people with almost nothing to go on. Is this how this blog works?

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  16. "Consequently I have removed the item until this is clarified". HUH?? it still HERE!?!?!!

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  17. Honesty - honestly - which Mekubalim (past or present) DO you "hold of", and could you provide evidence of how they "consult(ed) with other talmidei chachomim, all the time." Did Baba Sali זצוק"ל do this? I honestly don't know - do you?

    Does R' Chaim Kanievsky שליט"א "consult with other talmidei chachomim, all the time"?

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  18. It's your old pal - but do you give different answers to different people?

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  19. Thank you DT - I know that you can always be relied upon to check up sources and not run after sensationalism.


    Having said that, I have 2 questions:


    1) Why did you deleter the phone number of RZ's Beis Din - doesn't the public also have a right to verify such an important issue?


    2) What do you mean by writing on this post "I have removed the item" - you obviously haven't! Perhaps you are referring to the recording. But since the whole story is pending verification - and if it is untrue there is a lot of needless חילול ה' ובזיון צדיק ותלמיד חכם ומוציא שם רע וכו', what is the purpose of keeping this post open? (This story is not well-know, and your blog is one of the main sources for it.)

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  20. I just want to know "where" the question is coming from. The non-skeptic also exists but each time a scandal comes out he goes back into hiding again.
    I thik it was R' Yaakov Hillel who wrote that any Kabbalist that takes money is not a proper kabbalist, and that is a good rule of thumb.

    Rabbis /Kabbalists should not have intimate discussions with men or women, and women should never be alone with rabbis.

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  21. @Josh - a report that Rav Zilberstein took the story seriously is enough basis to warn people that there is such a story about someone who is influential.

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  22. Did Baba Sali זצוק"ל do this?

    Does R' Chaim Kanievsky שליט"א "consult with other talmidei chachomim, all the time"?


    100%!


    He is in continuous contact with other tlmidei chachomim, and advises people to seek out other talmidei chachamim - who are not his disciples. Additionally, for many years prior to become as famous as he is, RCK was always mevatel himself to those greater than him. This is evident in his seforim.



    I did a quick search on one site. This is what came up right away.

    http://matzav.com/photos-rav-chaim-kanievsky-learns-sefer-avi-ezri-to-mark-yahrtzeit-of-maran-rav-shach-ztl

    http://matzav.com/photos-rav-yaakov-edelstein-visits-rav-chaim-kanievsky

    http://matzav.com/photos-siyum-hashas-of-kollel-shas-yidden

    http://matzav.com/photos-rav-eliezer-kahaneman-visits-rav-chaim-kanievsky-in-his-sukkah


    Rav Chaim Kanievsky had signed a letter criticizing a certain publication for attributing certain psychobable and other narishkeiten to Torah. He retracted as soon as Rav Shteinman advised him to. (Rav Shteinman felt that it is still better for people to read these magazines than to read Good Housekeeping type stuff.)


    The Babe Sali passed on 30 years ago. However, he was known to be well respected among other talmidei chahmim - and they visited each other.

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  23. Cheesemaker, not a milkman.

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  24. Not to be argumentative, but:


    RCK שליט"א considers Rav Shach זצ"ל to be his Rebbe, and refers to him as such in his Sefer Derech Emuna. He now regards Rav Steinman to be THE Gadol HaDor. Obviously, then, he accepts their opinions/advice. In other matters, he isn't afraid to argue with the greatest Poskim, e.g. his positions against IVF and even men wearing watches, both of which Rav Eliashiv זצ"ל endorsed (RE wore a watch himself). קו וחומר RCK is not מבטל himself to any of his contemporaries.


    Now please provide evidence that the Chalban שליט"א, who is an old man, was not מכניע and מבטל himself to his Rebbeim in the last 80 years. And if you don't know, then why are you expressing an opinion?

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  25. When you say "until this is clarified" - are you going to take a part in the clarification?

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  26. Well at least we can agree on your 2nd paragraph.

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  27. Failed messiah published the audio record in question yesterday... So if this is really his voice, I think this is pretty good evidence...

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  28. @No comment - The audio recording was already on the Rotter Forum cite - FF didn't make any great discovery.
    The validity of the recording has been questioned if you read the comments to the Rotter Forum and Shtieble.
    As long as Rav Zilberstein denies that he issued a psak - then this alone does not make "pretty good evidence"

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  29. Women shouldn't be alone with any male other than their husbands if it involves yichud. If it doesn't I think it's unfair to make a blanket statement that a woman can't speak to a Rabbi alone. That's just ridiculous. I have a hard time feeling bad for a woman who is so stupid that she believes that cheating on her husband will be a tikkun for her when she knows it's against the Torah....

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  30. well a lot of them [rabbis] take advantage of it.
    come on, there are so many rabbis , since the CI and R' Shach's programme to produce a new wave of talmidei chachamim. Problem is, that many of these people are not morally fit to be rabbis.

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  31. I make 2 assertions in the comment, so I assume you refer to the first (since the 2nd - moral fitness - would follow logically from the first one).
    How do I know? There has been a steady and regular flow of stories in the news for the past 15 years, on rabbis abusing. they do not all go to court, but the high profile ones usually do (in Israel).
    Based on a general assumption that not every single case will come to light, since many victims may keep quiet or give in to pressure to keep quiet. The proof for that is the mercaz harav scandal , where the victims were threatened by the rabbonim of the yeshiva. They would be destroyed financially, and would not find shidduchim if they went to the authorities.

    1 is one too many. But when you have a conveyor belt of cases, then that supports my argument.

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  32. @Eddie - please put concretie your assertion - how many are you claiming?

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  33. Yes I know the sugya. They are thrown into a fiery furnace since Nebuchadnezzar has learned that God saves people from those. World's worst pickup line for daughters of a megalomaniac ruler.

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  34. Now please provide evidence that the Chalban שליט"א, who is an old man, was not מכניע and מבטל himself to his Rebbeim in the last 80 years. And if you don't know, then why are you expressing an opinion?

    Lets do this the other way. Please provide the slightest evidence that he was מכניע and מבטל himself in the last 20 years. And if you don't know, then why are you expressing an opinion?

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  35. Assertion 1: "well a lot of them [rabbis] take advantage of it." perush: As a Rabbi who has a kehilla, or clan, or area of influence, certain advantage may be taken for personal benefit. This does not need to be sexual, it can be financial or political, or even psychological. And it is not aimed at all rabbis, but it does occur more than what we read in the press. Case study: Shas - politcal party. Leader imprisoned for fraud. However, when he came out of prison, was once again appointed as leader of party.

    Assertion 2: "many of these people are not morally fit to be rabbis."

    The yeshiva factory is churning out people to be rabbis. In the Bt yeshivas people become rabbis within 4-5 years. It takes more than learning a few gemaras and some shulchan aruch to be morally fit.
    Case in point: R metzger, former Ashkenazi "Chief Rabbi" . Various allegations about molestation, and financial impropriety had been made prior to his appointment. These did not even bother his haredi backers. If this kind of character can be appointed to such an important position, what does that say about the moral standing of those who appoint them (in this case, haredi Political parties)? Do these kind of rabbis embody the values of Mesillas Yesharim? If not, then it seems to me that they are not morally fit to be rabbis.

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  36. Wow! So you vilify a person because you DON'T have evidence that he DIDN'T do something wrong? Guilty until proved innocent? I thought that you were being serious - I was wrong.

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  37. Could somebody please call Rav Zilberstein's Beis Din and get to the bottom of this? I would do it myself, but I don't speak Ivrit fluently. This important matter needs to be cleared up!

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  38. Wow! So you vilify a person

    Huh? The article, recording and postings are the vilification of this person. In which way did I add vilification or disparagement of him?

    If you disagree with I said, or seek to misrepresent Rav Chaim Kanievsky or the Babe Sali - then that is your choice. I believe that my original point about a rebbe is valid. It is your right to disagree.

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  39. Rabbi Michael TzadokNovember 14, 2014 at 1:51 PM

    The Chalban has learned and continues to learn with Rav David Batzri and Rav Yaakov Ades.

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  40. You disparage the Chalban for not having consulted Gedolim when you have no idea whether he has or hasn't. I could equally criticise you for carrying without an Eiruv on Shabbos since I don;t know for sure that you don't.

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  41. Thank you. Can you verify with Rav Zilbershatin's Beth Din if this story is true? If he is learning with Rav Batzri, I would assume the story is not true. Can you verify? Thank you.

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  42. Saves righteous people from the furnace. They were tested by fire and failed.

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  43. But YOU can verify whether the story about Rav Zilberstein is true with just one phone call. If you want to pursue the Emes, whilst avoiding slandering someone, why go to the effort of reporting the story and not go to the effort of verifying it? If Chas VeSholom the report would be about you, wouldn't you want people to do the due diligence of making a phone call before plastering your name up?

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  44. Thank you for ruling on another person's life. Now I know the secrets of their hearts just like you do. Now I can also decide who deserves respect and who doesn't. Thanks Honesty.

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