Thursday, January 7, 2010

Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, shlita


I was approached this morning by a friend who has very solid connections and knowledge of the yeshiva world. He said in an anxious and urgent tone, "You are in trouble. The word in the higher circles is that you are out to get Reb Elya Ber. They claim that your blog is conducting a smear campaign against him. They claim you are claiming that Reb Elya Ber honored tropper at the malave malke and he is conducting a coverup of the scandal for personal interests. An attack on him is viewed as an attack on the entire yeshiva world and the Torah itself...."

This took me by surprise. The yeshiva world is faced with the greatest chillul hashem in memory and they have remained totally silent. But they are avid readers of my blog and they are doing a great job of distorting and misreading what I have said. They have concluded that it is not tropper that is a shonde but rather the bloggers who have publicized this tragedy.

 I did report that Reb Elya Ber was at a Melave Malka which Rabbi Tropper was the guest speaker - no one denies that happened. I also reported that Reb Elya Ber walked out before tropper spoke - no one has denied that happened. The melave malkae was not for the South Fallsburg yeshiva but was for the South Fallsburg Kollel - again an uncontested assertion. If anyone can find a statement on this blog that I said that Reb Elya Ber honored tropper - than I apologize and will erase such a statement because it is not true. If I said that tropper was honored at a Melave Malke that Reb Elya Ber attended -and left when tropper appeared -  that is in fact true and uncontested.

Finally let me remind you that the kavod of Reb Elya Ber is also precious to me and that I have done more than most of the yeshiva world in defending it. If you recall that when tropper left EJF there was a press release that Reb Elya Ber was taking his place. This statement was uncontested for several days and there was great consternation that such a distinguished Rosh Yeshiva should be seen as supporting such shmutz. I was the first to post a denial of this assertion based on  informed sources that this press release was not true. I publicly requested that Reb Elya Ber should be asked to confirm or deny it. Several hours later Matzav published a letter from Reb Elya Ber denying that he was the director of EJF.


Again let's get facts straight - I have the highest regard for Reb Elya Ber Wachtfogel , shlita in the highest regard and am not trying to smear or degrade him.

48 comments :

  1. "An attack on him is viewed as an attack on the entire yeshiva world and the Torah itself...."

    What on earth does that mean??!! Is an attack on Rav Kook z"l an attack on the Torah itself?! Besides, there are many people within the yeshivah world who have their criticisms of Rav Elya Ber.

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  2. I've seen several commenter's on this blog (uncontested?) attempt to falsely claim that the original EJF PR release claiming Reb Elya Ber accepted the EJF position was true, and the the Rosh Yeshiva'a later refutation was an after the fact cover up.

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  3. "Finally let me remind you that the kavod of Reb Elya Ber is also precious to me and that I have done more than most of the yeshiva world in defending it."

    Rav Eidensohn,

    Is your position on Reb Reuven Feinstein's kavod the same as your above position on Reb Elya Ber's kovod?

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  4. Welcome to the Land of Oz.

    ברוכים הבאים לארץ של עוז
    Bienvenue au pays d'Oz.
    Bienvenido a la tierra de Oz
    Willkommen im Land von Oz
    مرحبا بكم في أرض أوز


    Not only are we not in Kansas anymore, but we’ve left behind all vestiges of rationality.

    You might be wondering if you’ve lost your mind as you ponder these happenings. Sadly, you’re not crazy.


    Hold true to the principles of our Torah min Har Sinai. These are the only truths in this world and in the World to Come.

    Your Emunah and Yiras Shamayim are your "Badge of Courage".

    And your disbelief in the state of affairs is a clear indication that you are perhaps more sane than you ever realized.

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  5. Does Rabbi Eidensohn know what it means to be "Borked"?

    There are special interests with very limited followings that very forcefully and loudly attack anyone against them.

    Both the Left Wing and the metzumtzem faction of the yeshiva world are experts at this.

    Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork was demonized by a very small but very organized and noisy opposition.

    Similarly, the emess is often cut down to it's knees by shysters in the yeshivishe velt who will not tolerate threats to their power.

    Does anyone know the story of how some rabbonim were attacked for running a shidduchim group in Flatbush? The shysters were appalled that there was mingling for the purpose of getting married. They went to Rav Gifter, assuming he would agree it should be shut down. They were flabbergasted when he said it was a chiyuv to keep it running, so they bashmutzed him and ran to R' Elya Svei who agreed it should be shut down, but only because they added false elements to the story after their bad experience with the first gadol.

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  6. i have been the only one here defending Rav Elya Ber shlita on this blog and I can tell you by allowing the comments apear attaching the Rosh Yeshiva you have aided and abeted the pro slifkin rodfim of the RY and we all know the onesh for dvaar hashem bozoh (ayin rbeyinu yonah) you could have not posted comments the were in this catagory just like you didnt allow some of mine and wont post this one remember yihiyu maleivib bmalachei elokim ....

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  7. "I've seen several commenter's on this blog (uncontested?) attempt to falsely claim that the original EJF PR release claiming Reb Elya Ber accepted the EJF position was true, and the the Rosh Yeshiva'a later refutation was an after the fact cover up."

    I claim that. I can't reveal my sources, unfortunately. But I will point out that it was several days before Rav Elya Ber claimed that the EJF claim was false. Why the delay? And why would EJF simply make something up?

    I will also point out that R. Eidensohn has brought no evidence at all that EJF's claim was false. He just claims to have "informed sources." I happen to know about his "informed sources," and I can assure you that mine are superior.

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  8. mirrer , rav elya ber is the star of the american yeshiva world , i know from very informed sources that rav shach asked him twice to come to poneviz to be the rosh yeshiva , he is a man who is of impechable integrity who took on kofrim and stood up for emunas yisroel the way it was all the doros . that created a group "chat" of haters who are open minded that are being rodef him on the

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  9. Are you going to allow the posting of comments that conflict with your "informed sources"?

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  10. An attack on him is viewed as an attack on the entire yeshiva world and the Torah itself...."
    Can I ask why?

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  11. I have to second Jersey Girl's comments. This is where the men and the boys go their separate ways and you must not lose sight of what is really at stake here. Will you have the courage of your convictions or will you cave in and Klal Yisroel will descend even further into the abyss. Chazak V'Amatz!

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  12. More attempts at diversion.

    What astonished me me is how easily people will accept just about anything posited.

    Sheker in defense of an agenda is now de riguer and perfectly acceptable. Apparently for some, the Islamification of our daas is a reality.

    We have bigger problems than Tropper. He's just a symptom.

    Jersey Girl is right.

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  13. As a member of the Chareidi right wing Yeshiva world who has had many interactions with Reb Elya Ber over the years - I say kudos to you Rabbi Eidensohn! Keep up the good work!
    While Reb Elya Ber is unequivocally a Goan, Lamdan, and world renowned Rosh Yeshiva - he has his faults too. All to often, he makes pronouncements and gives p'sakim on issues without knowing all the facts, and only backs down in the face of incredible pressure! A prerequisite for being a true Godol is someone who takes full achrayus for all his actions!
    To say that an attack on him is an attack on the Olam HaTorah is ludicrous.

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  14. Rav Eidensohn, I am very confused.

    Even if someone is the biggest talmid chochem alive, does that make them immune from criticism if they back a menuvel like Tropper which if in fact they are doing that, goes against the Torah?

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  15. Rabbi,

    I remember with great fondness, and now with great concern, the conversations we had (back when I was in E"Y for Shana Rishona and still participating in R' Triebitz' shiur) about the Kamenetzky affair. I remember your sociological analysis in particular - the yeshivishe velte has rules, these rules are not always spoken but they're very real, and the velte turns on, consumes, and destroys people who "break" those rules. I hope and pray they don't set out to destroy you that way as well--not just because I think it would be a great tragedy for the clal (which it would be in my not-so-humble opinion) but because I know how much it would hurt you and your wonderful family.

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  16. Ploni Almoni:

    I'll take Rav Eidensohn's word far faster and far more authoritively than your anonymous lies.

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  17. Rest assured, this, along with the rumors that SO and family had been shunned by the community are fabrications made by the Tropper PR team in order to apply as much pressure as possible to close the books on his personal life. First they tried to use compassion, now they are trying fear. Chazak v'ematz.

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  18. "Orthodoxjew," how do you explain Rav Elya Ber giving his fervent haskoma to Chaim B'Emunosom, a sefer that totally perverts the Rishonim?

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  19. Rabbi from CaliforniaJanuary 7, 2010 at 7:53 PM

    Pinchas ben Elozor ben Ahron haKohen saw that the leaders of Klal Yisroel were silent in the face of a great public chilul Hashem! Tropper created the very same public chilul Hashem of arayos - (except Zimri may have meant l'shem shomayim!)!

    The "Yeshivishe world" all PLEADED, BEGGED and yes - even cajoled (privately and publicly) for our Einay Ha'aidah to say something - ANYTHING!

    Who knows why Hashem again orchestrated some to be "rafu yedaihem" while others were "boche" and yet individual gedolim called for "mi laHashem alai" . . . but, dear friends, those are the facts!

    Rabbi Eidensohn followed the guidance of his moreh horah Horav Shternbuch and voiced a public mecha on the nevala hanaseh b'Yisroel. He is to be commended and acclaimed a hero!

    More so he was very meticulously careful with the Kovod of R' E.B. Shlit"a and never said a disparaging word against him - as others (in protest of HIS silence) did!

    Let's not loose focus of the emes of what really happened and what YET NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

    Ps. Aaron S. Your attempted comparison of persons is remarkable!

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  20. "he is a man who is of impechable integrity who took on kofrim and stood up for emunas yisroel the way it was all the doros"

    ALL the doros?
    In the times of the Rishonim, they learned Pesachim 94b as saying that Chazal were wrong about where the sun goes at night.
    Rav Elya Ber says that this approach is kefirah.

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  21. Karasi ve'ain oynehJanuary 7, 2010 at 8:22 PM

    If no American rosh yeshiva raises his voice against Tropper we will enter into a new era that is so far from Har Sinai, it is unimaginable.

    I think that when the Rambam wrote that if everyone goes crazy, we should retreat by ourselves to the mountains, he was not referring to a situation that is impossible.

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  22. Mayer Reiss was reportedly a big financial supporter of the South Fallsburg yeshiva.

    When Reiss was arrested by Federal agents as a money launderer for Columbian drug cartels, Rav Elya Ber was running around saying he is innocent and even went to court to defend him, not that it helped against the evidence.

    So if someone says Rav Elya Ber made a mistake, does that make them a koffer baikkur and against the Oylam Hatayreh?

    These Columbian drugs by the way are being machriv thousands of youth and adults from frum families in Brooklyn, Monsey, 5 Towns and even to a lesser extent in Lakewood.

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  23. To quote the mother of Jersey Girl (until 120):

    "Avraham Avinu was alone in the world!To be a Jew, a REAL Jew is to be alone in the world, reviled by the masses and to suffer in painful loneliness. If the religion gets "too easy" then you know you are not doing it right".

    More on the topic from Rabbi Bar Tzadok:

    "Avraham Avinu was not one who we would call “one of the crowd.” On the contrary, he stood out from the crowd and in a big way. He stood up for what he believed was right. He not only spoke out against what he viewed as immoral and improper behavior; he acted
    against it and rallied others to act against it as well. Avraham Avinu was nothing short of a
    revolutionary, one that was most unwelcome by the population of his country. Regardless of
    political correctness, Avraham Avinu continued his campaign against the ruling political
    powers of his day. Oral Torah teaches us that Avraham was arrested tried and condemned to
    death for treason by no less a person that Nimrod, the evil dictator. Avraham was
    miraculously saved (whereas Haran his brother also so condemned was not). The miraculous
    saving of his life added an extra spiritual depth to Avraham’s teachings and authority. This
    won for him many new adherents to his message.

    While many are under the impression that Avraham was starting a new religion, this is most
    certainly not true. Avraham was actually continuing on an older religious path, one that the
    people of his day dismissed as old fashioned."

    http://koshertorah.com/PDF/AvrahamAvinu.pdf

    May Hashem Bless you and your family abundantly, just as you zealously and selflessly defend Kavod HaTorah!

    A great Rabbi once told me to keep my eye on the "ball". The "ball" is not today, it is 1, 2, 4 generations from now. We are Jews for an eternity and we have to keep that in mind.

    When Hashem asks you after 120 years, what did you do in this world when you could have made a difference, you will have the right answer and that is ALL that matters because that is the essence of being a Jew!!

    Kol Hakavod to you, Hazak u' Baruch!!

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  24. "I remember your sociological analysis in particular - the yeshivishe velte has rules, these rules are not always spoken but they're very real, and the velte turns on, consumes, and destroys people who "break" those rules."

    I'm not sure who makes these rules--the Yated ? However, the internet has the power to equalize, and ,hopefully, bring transparency.

    Whenever I think of unfairness in the yeshivah world or in any society, I think of the following quote from Emily Zola:

    "When truth is buried in the earth, it accumulates there, and assumes so mighty an explosive power that, on the day it bursts forth, it hurls everything into the air. We shall see if they [the suppressers of truth] have not just made preparations for the most resounding of disasters yet to come."

    Hella Winstin was quoted in a 5/25/06 Jewish Week article:

    "Whether or not the Internet proves helpful or hurtful or a bit of both, most community observers say the Web has forever changed the way Orthodox individuals interact with the world.

    The Internet poses an incredibly serious threat to the status quo in these communities — as it does to any society that controls information and suppresses public dissent."

    Note that my comments are not in reference to R. Wachtfogel, shlita, but rather to the concept of "unspoken rules".

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  25. Rav Eidensohn,

    I don't know where you learned and what yeshivos were like in those days, but in my day already going back 15 years, this is what happens:

    There are a bunch of hockers who think they report every day to beis medrash to solve the world's problems instead of learn. They go to the roshei yeshiva & gedolim with a bunch of bilbulim that contain wild exaggerations and flat out lies.

    I personally knew of some cases where a rosh yeshiva would get very excited, based on nothing but details that were false. Some of these hockers amount to nothing and after hanging around for ages, the yeshiva has rochmonus and gives them some kind of nominal shteller or title that only makes things worse because now these maniacs have an imprimatur of legitimacy.

    There are also people who think kaviyochel that Yiddishkeit is like the Catholic Church where the Pope is never wrong.

    Both types are very dangerous. There is no doubt that they will try to sabotage you or anyone else who goes against the flow and speaks up.

    Hallevai that they have zero hatzlocho.

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  26. Men in the white coatsJanuary 7, 2010 at 8:49 PM

    I thought orthdodoxjew said he was going to stop frequenting the blog and commenting?

    I guess he's not a man of his word.

    No questions R' Elya Ber's geonus and it's not shver that Maran Rav Schach would want him in Ponivizh. So what?

    Maran Rav Schach also wanted someone else to be a rosh yeshiva in Israel who turned out to be a pedophile.

    Not every brilliant mind in learning is sane or immune from making mistakes.

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  27. the drug guy could have cleared his name if he was a sd acord to what i heard. now if you have question on a haskomah that you think is against your understanding of a gemarah or reshnim go and ask him how he learnt pshat . psat said by a sceinentist from israel or a perfessor from pa wont change his mind against mesorah of 2000 years

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  28. "psat said by a sceinentist from israel or a perfessor from pa wont change his mind against mesorah of 2000 years"

    It's not the mesorah of 2000 years. It's the mesorah of about 20 years. You can check the sources yourself, even Artscroll has some of them. Or go to torahandscience.blogspot.com

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  29. Men in the white coatsJanuary 7, 2010 at 10:45 PM

    Does anyone know what language orthodoxjew speaks?

    It's not English and I don't think at least most people understand what he is saying.

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  30. Rabbi Eidenson, if you dont mind I would like to take issue with a few of your statemants:

    You said: "The yeshiva world is faced with the greatest chillul hashem in memory and they have remained totally silent"
    -If they really thought it was a chilul hashem Im sure they wouldnt remain silent. As many have pointed out to you in the past: Not everyone has to agree with you because you decided Tropper is guilty! You know as well as everyone else that many including gedolim believe, and have a strong reason to believe, that the whole story is what Reb Elya Ber has called "ziyuf from begining until the end. Created by his enemies (we know who that is) and published by his enemies (Look in the mirror)". Many have heard him say this. Which brings us back to the question many have brought up: How can you take part in such Lashon Horah/Motzi Shem Rah??

    You said: "But they are avid readers of my blog"
    -As one who learns in the biggest yeshiva in the world, and know a little about what goes on there, Im sorry to inform you that you and your blog are almost non existant in the Yeshiva world. Sorry. Most yeshiva guys dont hang out on blogs (a very few like myself do on occasion), and in fact despise the very idea of the existance of blogs. They as specialy dont visit sites that would be considerd "lashon Horah sites".

    You said "and they are doing a great job of distorting and misreading what I have said."
    -I disagree.

    You said:"They have concluded that it is not tropper that is a shonde but rather the bloggers who have publicized this tragedy."
    -Let me tell you what I personaly have heard Reb Elya Ber say many times when he was sitting shiva for his mother by his sisters house in Lakewood. "This new thing called "blogs" is the one of the worst new technologies that was ever created. Someone can decide to bashmutz someone, wether true or false, put it on a blog, and the next thing you know the Lashon Horah is spread around the whole world in a matter of seconds. All cus yenem didnt like yenem."
    No one can deny that this is true We dont have to look far for a prefect example.
    Yes they have concluded that the bloggers is the 'shonde' (to put it mildly).

    You said:"I also reported that Reb Elya Ber walked out before tropper spoke - no one has denied that happened"
    -A. They have not denied it cus as I said they dont read your blog and therefore have nothing to deny.
    B. As someone that knows people that were at the event, I can tell you that your above statemant is factualy untrue. So now you have it. Someone denied it. Will you post a retraction?

    You said: "If I said that tropper was honored at a Melave Malke that Reb Elya Ber attended -and left when tropper appeared - that is in fact true and uncontested."
    -Fact: Reb Elya Ber WAS there WITH Tropper and gave Tropper a kiss!

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  31. You said: "If I said that tropper was honored at a Melave Malke that Reb Elya Ber attended -and left when tropper appeared - that is in fact true and uncontested."
    -Fact: Reb Elya Ber WAS there WITH Tropper and gave Tropper a kiss!
    ========================
    Would you mind describing the relationship between Reb Elya Ber and tropper.

    It is hard to give any credence to the words of an anonymous blogger who by his own admission is violating the pronouncment of gedolim to deliver his message.


    This post started because some major rosh yeshiva complained that I was mevazah Reb Elya Ber by saying he gave kavod to tropper. Now you are implying that I am mevazeh Reb Elya Ber and tropper by denying that Reb Elya gave kavod to tropper.

    So what is the real yeshiva viewpoint - is tropper a good boychik and the gedolim are silent because they all believe that bloggers made up the evidence? That their silence is simply because they don't want to spread the slander against tropper? And they believe that the evil enemy is this scenario is the blogger!

    Furthermore that the London Beis Din and the CER's denunciation came from bloggers and the RCA's denunciation was driven by the bloggers?!

    The question is how widespread is this koolaide fantasy

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  32. How many times does it have to be repeated that that there is no din to refrain from Loshon Horo about a rosho?

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  33. If it is confirmed that R. Elya Ber gave Tropper a kiss, I might 1) lose my dinner and 2) reconsider my affiliation with the Orthodox world.

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  34. "the whole story is what Reb Elya Ber has called "ziyuf from begining until the end. Created by his enemies (we know who that is) and published by his enemies"

    As someone who sets out to defend the kavod of Rav Elya Ber, Benny has failed magnificently.

    But I can believe what he says. If Rav Elya Ber considers the maamar of Rabbeinu Avraham ben HaRambam to be a ziyuf, and the letters of Rav Hirsch to be a ziyuf, then I guess he would also consider the Tropper audio tapes to be a ziyuf. Anything that doesn't fit with his worldview is a ziyuf!

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  35. Rabbi Eidensohn, I will be happy to answer your questions and points.
    You said:"It is hard to give any credence to the words of an anonymous blogger who by his own admission is violating the pronouncement of gedolim to deliver his message".
    -'violating'. Are you talking to to yourself? Are you not violating the pronouncement of the Gedolim? Oh, and also what does the Badatz, who R'Shternbuch is part of feel about Internet in general, never mind blogs?
    'Anonymous'. One would have to be crazy to put his name to a post on your blog if he differs with your opinion. Look what you did to the last guy that disagreed with you. You made sure that the whole world saw what YOU decided were facts of his being a menuval.

    You asked: So what is the real yeshiva viewpoint - is tropper a good boychik and the gedolim are silent because they all believe that bloggers made up the evidence?
    -The Yeshiva world generaly likes to follow the Gedolim. This has been the way for thousands of years. If the Gedolim say Internet is bad, then Internet is bad. If they say that blogs are full of Loshon horah, then that's what it is. If they say its day then its day. Night, night. We don't have to understand everything and we can ask them, but we most definitely cant go out and create blogs dedicated to 'anti gedolim fests', and very often anti chareidi too. And anti Rabbonim. And anti yeshiva. And full of loshon horah etc.
    The the bottom line is that the Gedolim and the Yeshiva world most definitely feel that blogs are terrible and disgusting.
    So now that we got that established. Lets get to the point in case. Here we have a story of a Rabbi who was on very good terms with all the Gedolei Hador. He had a reputation as someone who had a hand in bringing thousands of Jews back to yiddishkeit, directly and/or indirectly. Being that he worked in an extremely delicate and sensitive field which was controversial and he stepped on a couple of toes, over the years he acquired more than a few enemies. Some of those enemies are wealthy. One of them is a billionaire (who vowed revenge). Some are regular folk. Some have blogs. (one has a blog which is almost primarily dedicated to fighting him. hint hint). One day the blogs started reporting audios that sounded like the rabbi having 2 conversations with a women about sexual matters. The blogs were the conceptual news source for the audio. Further investigation revealed that the original source that released the audio to the blogs was the billionaire enemy. Upon further investigation it was revealed that the women on the audio was also friends with the billionaire enemy.
    So we are left with an audio released by the billionaire enemy to the unkosher bad filthy blogs (remember, we are trying to understand the yeshiva world and the Gedolim) of WHO THEY (THE BLOGS!) say is the rabbi, and THEY authenticated to be authentic "proof". The Rabbi claims its all lies. His friends claim its all lies. His family claims its all lies.
    So the Gedolim look at the "evidence" and think, hmmm.. Would this stand up in a Jewish court? Don't think so. Secular court? Don't think so. The Rabbi denies it. There is lots of motive for his enemies to do this to him. Soooo... there's no evidence. As far as they are concerned bad mouthing the Rabbi falls under the terrible sin of Motzi shem rah! And the mere fact that the blogs, many who always hated the Rabbi to begin are all drunk with the "rabbi Bashing" story is enough for them to not only keep quite but feel that the Rabbi needs all the support that they can give.
    Is Tropper a good boychik? As much as a good boychik as any other Jew who we are prohibited on talking loshon horah on.
    Continued...

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  36. Cont.

    You asked: their silence is simply because they don't want to spread the slander against tropper?
    -Yes "simply" because they don't want to spread the slander and destroy another Jew and his family. I dont know why you call that "simply"!
    (also they don't want to burn in gehenom for the terrible sin of LH, believe it or not)
    I would like to point out- since you very often claim that there is no issur of Lashon Horah going on here regarding Tropper or anywhere else on this blog: Allowing Lashon Horah comments on your blog which you very often do (even regarding people other than Tropper)regarding other Jews is assur. When you get upstairs dont say no one told you downstairs.
    I'm telling you now.

    You asked: "And they believe that the evil enemy is this scenario is the blogger!"
    -I wouldn't say that THE evil enemy in THIS scenario is the bloggers.
    Blogs are evil period. Anything that springs fourth from them is tainted. Anything that is spoken on the blogs is considered SHEKER until PROVEN otherwise. Noone is claiming that "the blogs" made the tapes up! Noone is claiming that the RCA's oposition to Tropper was conspired by the blogs.
    The claim is that the blog owners and the people that add they're comments are guilty of spreading untrue 'facts'. Facts that THEY decided are facts and evidence.

    You asked: "Furthermore that the London Beis Din and the CAR's denunciation came from bloggers and the RCA's denunciation was driven by the bloggers?!"
    -1.See above.
    2.The fact that the only ones that came out against Tropper are those that have been his enemies and have despised him for years is all the more proof that the ones spreading this story as 'facts' are his enemies- the people that cant be objective (yourself included) who even if the story were true have no heter to speak LH in this case with the "Toeles heter".

    You said: "The question is how widespread is this koolaide fantasy"
    -Rabbi Eidenson, thats a great question...
    ...to ask when your in front of a mirror.

    So I hope you have a lttle better understanding of the way things work and are understood in the Yeshiva world Rabbi Eidensohn. You are a blog owner who so brazenly puts his name and his face to his blog. I really hope you dont have kids in shidduchim looking for a yeshiva guy.

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  37. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 8, 2010 at 7:56 AM

    To R EB Wachtfogel also applies "divrei harav divrei hatalmid divrei mi shom'in" that no one can listen to even a presumed gadol if he is tainted by supicions in the public mind with associations with his beloved Leib Tropper -- and that you are known by the company you keep.

    Thus R EB Wachtfogel cannot with one arm hug and comfort Tropper/EJF and ignore sex scandals, while his other arm is outstreched in protest that he doeth no wrong. You can't have it both ways. Even in machshova as based on halacha there is the notion of "hatovel vesheretz beyado" and in this case R EB Wachtfogel is trying to tovel/swim in the yam haTorah while at the same time not running from the sickening Tropper stigma.

    The yeshiva velt itself was appaled that R EB Wachtfogel had allowed himself to be talked into becoming the official successor to Tropper at the disgraced EJF, and it was because he felt the heat so quickly, especially from the world of the Lakewood yeshiva where Tropper's name is mud in any case long before his unmasking as a pervert, that R EB Wachtfogel was forced to retreat from any official role in EJF, but lo and behold it did not take too long before yet again it was R EB Wachtfogel's own nephew, the young Rabbi Blum who is the assistant rabbi to Barros the Tropper trooper in S Fallsburg still under Tropper's spell and command, that then again it brings up the questions why R EB Wachtfogel obviously brings in and allows HIS OWN NEPHEW, who works for Barros no less, to become the new EJF "director" meaning he will be both a puppet for R EB Wachtfogel and for Tropper, and about this there is no word yet because Charedim are not getting the news since a number of Charedi blogs have been shut down (by Tropper's ally Eisenstien) and the Charedi papers will not touch this story, while Tropper;s other ally Tom Kaplan runs full DAMAGE CONTROL ads for EJF, and by inmpication Tropper obviously gets redeemed by this PR drrive, in as many Charedi and Orthodox papers and journals. Yeah so no wonder Charedim don't get it, when their minds are being manipulated and the news they are fed and are allowed to get is tightly controlled and twisted by Tropper's and R EB Wachfogel's and R Nochum Norman Eisenstein's allies and all paid for from the deep pockets of uncle Tom.

    So it's nonsense to claim the yeshiva world is saying anything. They may as well say that Tropper is the tzadik hador and that his backer Tom Kaplan is the mefarnes hador and that R EB Wachfogel is Eliyahu Hanovi and by now everyone knows that such notions are false and twisted.

    There is still lots of work to do to yank Kaplan away from Tropper & EJF, to keep the R EB Wachtfogel/Blum family as far away from EJF/Kaplan/Tropper, to persuade R Reuven Feinstein/R Ehrentrau/R Stern that they are backing a lost cause, and to convince the Charedi world that EJF has long sunk to the bottom of the ocean where it righfully belongs.

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  38. I as a talmid in a mainstream yeshiva in Monsey would like to agree with Benny. He basically exactly described the attitude of the yeshiva world to this whole thing to a T. The magid shiur in my yeshiva, who is not famous but is a recognized gaon olam, immediately upon hearing the details of this story said it's a mitzvah not to believe it.

    This chillul Hashem can only be blamed on Rabbi Tropper if he actually did it. If we don't believe it, the C"H is mitzad the blogs and publicity (and recipients).

    The Chazon Ish you so happily quote about the permissibility of saying LH about rabbonim also says that it's only if there is no exaggeration ad kutzo shel yud. Otherwise you're being over motzi shem ra. Enough said. I'm very tempted to be melaket some of the juicy comments you've allowed here and call R Shternbuch and read them to him.

    You should know that in Monsey this is not even a public issue. People AREN'T TALKING about it - no one in my experience except person to person in quiet tones.

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  39. Do not pay any attention to these idiotten from BMG Lakewood & Monsey. They are from a small minority of diehard Tropper & R' Elya Ber chassidim.

    While close-minded fools do not believe Tropper is guilty, they do not go as far as these two bashers of Rav Eidensohn.

    There is a very large movement among yeshivaleit who believe that Tropper is the biggest lowlife and who are fed up with R' Elya Ber standing behind him. The only guy I personally know who still defends Tropper is a baal teshuve and even he admits the tapes are real.

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  40. I should be mossif that Rav Sternbuch told Rav Eidensohn to blog about Tropper. The internet is not kulo ra. The Orchos Tzaddikim says every midah roah can be used for tov.

    Even Rav Salomon, from the biggest internet misnagdim, was moydeh that there could be a way to have safe internet. He compared it to cars. When cars first came out they were very dangerous because there were no traffic lights.

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  41. Men in the white coatsJanuary 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM

    Benny & (non)-"Truth" are just as deluded as orthodoxjew but more articulate.

    They cannot get away with ignoring all the poskim, Rishonim & Achronim, who say to remove a manhig who is a menuvol, mechalel shem shamayim, and to be mefarsem against him.

    I don't care which big rosh yeshiva ignores the halacha.

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  42. You don't seem to understand the issue. The question is whether those psakim apply. That is taluy on whether we are mechuyav to accept this accusation.

    Time to journey to morning seder. Goodbye.

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  43. Snag said: "How many times does it have to be repeated that that there is no din to refrain from Loshon Horo about a rosho?"
    Why are you repeating everything that I have been saying-How many times does it have to be repeated that that there is no din to refrain from Loshon Horo about a RASHA?!!
    (Is R' Eidenson the person to decide who a rahha is? Not one Gadol has said that he is a Rasha. Gedolim are supporting him. Gedolim dont support reshaim.)

    Lakewooder is obviosly a self hating Lakewooder and every sentance of his contradicts the next. His nonsense doesnt even warrent a spit.
    Men in white pants said: "They cannot get away with ignoring all the poskim, Rishonim & Achronim, who say to remove a manhig who is a menuvol, mechalel shem shamayim, and to be mefarsem against him.
    I don't care which big rosh yeshiva ignores the halacha."

    Since you know better than the Gedolim, and you know the reshonim etc. can you please tell us which reshonim said that Tropper who didnt do anything wrong is a menuval and a mechalel shem shamyim?

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  44. "Not one Gadol has said that he is a Rasha."

    Without wishing to get into a pointless argument about who is or is not a Godol, Rav Shternbuch has called him a menuval, about as harsh a condemnation as one could find.

    Perhaps R' Eidensohn could ask R' Shternbuch whether the laws of Loshon Horo apply to Tropper?

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  45. From the posted interview with R. Abba Dunner: "He has no right whatsoever to have a Yeshiva. He is a man that should stay home and be happy that nobody stones him. The same goes for his organization."

    OK, the posters are technically correct in saying that he does not use the word "rasha", but there is a pretty strong condemnation contained therein.

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  46. "If they really thought it was a chilul hashem Im sure they wouldnt remain silent. "

    This is circular logic doublespeak for: The "Yeshiva world" knows best and does best under every possible circumstance.

    None of us are buying this (some of us not anymore, and some of us never did)...

    Someone who considers this NOT to be a chillul Hashem must be living on another planet.

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  47. "Further investigation revealed that the original source that released the audio to the blogs was the billionaire enemy."

    That's a flat-out lie. So Benny, did Tropper feed you these lines and ask you to type them in here? Or his attorney?

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  48. With all due respect, I would like to post a question regarding the original topic of this thread.

    Someone posted that Chaim Blum is the son in law of Rav Elya Ber. Chaim Blum has taken over control of EJF, after having been fed the money that was fed from Tropper to Barros when Blum was in the SF Kollel.

    Now he is still being fed from the same money source, has taken down all reference to condemnation of Tropper on his (EJF) website, and continues to divide Am Yisroel through political maneuverings concerning geirus. There are tapes and videos of which he must be aware, since he is in the driver's seat at the center of all this. Therefore he must know who else was involved in the sex for conversion and sex for money scandals, and has not come out against anyone.

    REB has not said anything publicly that would have one assume that he disagrees with his eidim.

    Again, with respect and being dan l'caf Z'chus as long as I can, I would like to ask how this can be if he is against what is being done by the power group in charge of this corruption.

    To say that it is enough that he refused the mantle offered by EJF means nothing if his son in law took it. After all, a young chevra man can handle the flak better than an older man who has had a sterling reputation until now.

    I readily state that I don't know what is going on here. REB was never the one from YSB to play the politician.

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