One of the larger than life figures in recent history is Shlomo Carlebach. A man who promoted and lived a life of love of one's fellow man. A man who was responsible for bringing many to observance or at least strong positive feelings about Judaism. A talented performer, a composer of beloved songs and teller of inspirational tales. A man who inspired the widespread phenomenon of the Carlebach Minyan. A man who molested some of the women who idolized him - including young teenage girls.
There is a teshuva in the Igros Moshe regarding whether his songs are appropriate since there are allegations that has committed the sin of singing before mixed audiences. I confronted Carlebach with the teshuva and his response was that he had a very good relationship with Rav Moshe Feinstein.
שו"ת אגרות משה אבן העזר חלק א סימן צו
בדבר ניגונים שעשה אדם כשר שאחר זמן נתקלקל וסני שומעניה אם יש לנגנם
על חתונות כ"ב אייר תשי"ט. מע"כ ידידי מהר"ר שמואל דישון
שליט"א.
בדבר אחד שהיה בן תורה בחזקת כשרות כמה שנים והוא מנגן שעשה ניגונים
על שירי קדש ולשיר לחתונות והורגלו כמה בני תורה לזמר אותם בשמחות של מצוה ועתה
אין שמועתו טובה שמכנס בחורים ובתולות יחד ומזמר לפניהם, ושואל כתר"ה אם מותר
עתה לזמר בניגוניו שעשה תחלה כשהיה בחזקת כשרות. לע"ד איני רואה בזה שום
איסור מכיון שהם ממה שעשה בכשרותו. וראיה שהרי מצינו בתקנות יוחנן כהן גדול שנקראו
על שמו במתני' סוף מע"ש ובפ' עגלה ערופה בסוטה ויש שסוברין שהוא זה ששימש
שמנים שנה בכהונה גדולה ולבסוף נעשה צדוקי עיין במלאכת שלמה במע"ש שם, ואף
ששם לא היה אפשר לבטל התקנות הגדולות שתיקן ונתקבלו בישראל ונעשו הלכות קבועות,
מ"מ לא הי"ל לקרא אותם על שמו אלמא דכיון שתיקן אותם בכשרותו יש לקרא על
שמו אף שעתה הוא רשע ומין כיון שנקרא על השעה שהיה כשר.
איברא שהרמב"ם רפ"ט ממעשר כתב שהוא יוחנן כהן גדול שהיה אחר
שמעון הצדיק וכתב הכ"מ לאפוקי שלא נאמר שהוא אותו יוחנן כ"ג שנעשה צדוקי
לבסוף, מ"מ מסתבר שאינו משום שסובר הרמב"ם שהיה אסור לקרא על שמו אם היה
אותו יוחנן כ"ג שנעשה צדוקי לבסוף, שאין לנו לעשות מחלוקת בחנם וא"כ
מדידהו נשמע שגם הרמב"ם יודה שמותר לקרא על שמו מה שתיקן בכשרותו, אלא שיודע
מאיזה מקור שהיה זה יוחנן כ"ג הקודם לזה שנעשה צדוקי. וגם הא מצינו מאמר
באבות פ"ד מ"כ מאלישע בן אבויה אף שהוא לו זכרון גדול והוא משום דאמר זה
בכשרותו.
ולבד זה הא מוכרח כן דהא כל המקור לאסור הוא לטעם הרמב"ם
בס"ת שכתבו מין שישרף שהוא כדי שלא להניח שם לאפיקורסים ולא למעשיהם, והא זה
ברור שבנעשה מומר אחר שכתב הס"ת היא כשרה ממש אף לקרות בו עיין בפ"ת
יו"ד סימן רפ"א סק"ב אלמא דכיון שכתב כשהיה בכשרותו הוי הנחת השם
לזמן כשרותו שלזה ליכא קפידא. ואין לדחות דבכתב בכשרותו הרי קידש את השמות שהיה
אסור לשרוף אף בכתבו מין כדמשמע שם ברמב"ם, דמ"מ היה לן לפסול ולהצריך
גניזה, אלא צריך לומר דכיון שהנחת השם הוא לזמן כשרותו ליכא קפידא גם
להרמב"ם. ולכן גם בעובדא זו הניגונים שעשה כשהיה בכשרותו שאף אם נימא שיש בזה
ענין הנחת השם לעושה הניגונים אין לאסור דהרי הוא הנחת השם על זמן כשרותו שליכא
קפידא בזה ומותר. ואף לבני תורה ובעלי נפש אין מקום להחמיר.
ובעצם מסופקני אף בהניגונים שעשה אחר שסני שומעניה, אם הם ניגונים
כשרים שאין בהם קלות שראוין לנגנם, אם יש לזה ענין הנחת שם למעשה רשעים, דמסתבר
דרק בעניני קדושה ככתיבת ס"ת שהוא חשיבות הנחת שמם בדבר קדושה הוא אסור
להרמב"ם אבל בעניני חול אין בזה שום חשיבות במה שיהיה שמם עליהם ואין לאסור.
וכמו שפשוט שמותר להשתמש וגם לקרא שמם על עניני חדוש ברפואות ומאשינעס /ומכונות/
וכדומה אלמא דרק בעניני קדושה הוא גנאי להניח שם לאפיקורסים ולא בעניני חול.
וא"כ גם הניגונים הם עניני חול דאין להם שום קדושה ולכן אף שעשו לנגן
בניגונים אלו דברי קדושה אפשר אין להחשיב שהוא הנחת שם להרשע בדברי קדושה כיון
שבעצם הניגונים שחידש אין בהם קדושה. וא"כ אף ניגונים אלו שעשה אחר שסני
שומעניה נמי יותר נוטה שאין לאסור לנגן בהם. אך באלו יש לבני תורה ובע"נ
להחמיר כיון שיש גם טעם לאסור אף שהוא טעם קלוש.
והנה בעובדא זו שהסני שומעניה אינו בעניני כפירה אלא בעניני קלות ראש
לנגן בפני בחורים ובתולות יחד שודאי אין להחשיבו כמין ואפיקורס ואף לא כמומר
לתיאבון דהא רק לדבר אחד דקלות ראש ופריצות הוא עבריין לתיאבון מסתבר שעל אדם כזה
אין למילף שיהיה דין וחיוב שלא להניח שם לו ולמעשיו. ואדרבה הא ברור שהס"ת שיכתוב
איש כזה יהיה כשר, ומפורש ברדב"ז סימן תשע"ד הובא בקיצור בפ"ת שם
שס"ת שכתב אחד מהקראים אסור לשרוף ובעצם היה מותר גם לקרות בו רק משום שאפשר
שלא נעשה כתקון חז"ל עיין שם והא במין ואפיקורס שכתבו ס"ת אף בהיה ידוע
בעדים שכתבו כדין היה אסור לקרות בו להרמב"ם כדי שלא להניח שם להאפיקורסים,
מטעם שחלק הרדב"ז שאף שהם בכלל הכופרים כיון שעכ"פ מאמינים בקדושת השם
ובקדושת התורה אין קפידא בהנחת שמם בקדושה שמחזיקין. א"כ כ"ש שמומר
לתיאבון כשמאמין בקדושת התורה שכשר לקרות בו. וכ"ש בעבריין רק לדבר אחד
לתיאבון דכשר הס"ת שיכתוב. וא"כ כ"ש הניגונים שעושה שרשאין לנגן
בהם ואין להחמיר אף לבני תורה ובעלי נפש. ואם סני שומעניה גם לעניני כפירה אז הוא
כדכתבתי לעיל שאלו שעשה מתחלה אין מקום להחמיר כלל ואף אלו שעשה אח"כ מסתבר
יותר שאין לאסור כיון שאינם ענין קדושה אבל לבני תורה ובע"נ ראוי להחמיר,
ידידו מוקירו, משה פיינשטיין
He was larger than life, and since his death, Jews running the full religious and political spectrum have continued debating the true nature and beliefs of Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach; a new memoir places him among the hippies, but in truth he didn’t fully belong to anyone. [...]
Lilith Magazine
In 1989 the feminist group Women of the Wall defied the Orthodox Jewish establishment and read from their own Torah scroll at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Shlomo Carlebach, steeped in hasidic tradition but committed to the spiritual rights of women, was the only male rabbi present.
An Orthodox rabbi by training, Rabbi Carlebach took down the separation between women and men in his own synagogue, encouraged women to study and to teach the Jewish texts, and gave private ordination to women before most mainstream Jewish institutions would. Described as a musical genius. Rabbi Carlebach’s melodies—including Adir Hu, Am Yisrael Chai and Esa Einar are sung throughout the world in hasidic shteibels and Reform temples alike; they have sunk so deeply into Jewish consciousness that many don’t realize these are not age-old tunes. And Rabbi Carlebach encouraged women to sing out loud—a challenge to the Orthodox teaching that women’s voices should not be heard publicly lest they arouse men.
Shlomo Carlebach also abandoned the Orthodox injunction that men and women not touch publicly. Indeed, he was known for his frequent hugs of men and women alike, and often said his hope was to hug every Jew—perhaps every person—on earth.
It is an alarming paradox, then, that the man who did so much on behalf of women may also have done some of them harm. In the three years since Rabbi Carlebach’s death, at age 69, ceremonies honoring his life and work have been interrupted by women who claim the rabbi sexually harassed or abused them. In dozens of recent interviews, Lilith has attempted to untangle and to explain Rabbi Carlebach’s complex legacy.
“He was the first person to ordain women, to take down the mechitza, and I think he thought all boundaries were off,” says Abigail Grafton, a psychotherapist whose Jewish Renewal congregation in Berkeley, California, has spent the last six months trying to cope with the allegations.[...]
Among the many people Lilith spoke with, nearly all had heard stories of Rabbi Carlebach’s sexual indiscretions during his more than four decade rabbinic career. Spiritual leaders, psychotherapists and others report numerous incidents, from playful propositions to actual sexual contact. Most of the allegations include middle-of-the-night, sexually charged phone calls and unwanted attention or propositions. Others, which have been slower to emerge, relate to sexual molestation.[...]
However, he was a special rabbi, and those she had looked up to had looked up to him. Rachel, today an artist and martial arts teacher in New Mexico, told almost no one what had happened. Those she did tell said he was “just a dirty old man.” Thirty-five years later she was jogging with Rabbi Gottlieb, both her friend and her congregational rabbi, when they began talking about Rabbi Carlebach. Hearing that others were claiming experiences similar to hers, Rachel broke down in tears. Only then, she recalls, did she get very angry. “I felt acknowledged. It wasn’t a dream, it really happened.”[...]
Other stories have begun to emerge, suggesting that Rachel’s experience was not unique. Robin Goldberg, today a teacher of women’s studies and a research psychoanalyst on women’s issues in California, was 12 years old when Shlomo visited her Orthodox Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, community to lead a singing and dancing concert. He invited all the young people for a preconcert preparation. And it was during the dancing that he started touching her. He kept coming back to her, she reports, whispering in her ear, saying “holy maidele,” and fondling her breast. Twelve years old and Orthodox, she says she didn’t know what to think. Her mother, that afternoon, told her she must have been mistaken and that she must not have understood what was going on. But when she was taken to a dance event led by Rabbi Carlebach years later, while she was in college, she reports that the same thing—dancing, whispering, fondling—happened to her again. [...]
This Fall, Spiegel summarized the stories she had heard regarding Rabbi Carlebach in a letter to Yaakov Ariel, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill who is studying Rabbi Carlebach’s spiritually innovative California synagogue, the House of Love and Prayer. In the letter, which Spiegel made available to Lilith, she states that in the last few years, a number of women in their 40s have approached her “in private and often with deep seated pain” about experiences they had when they were in their teens. “Shlomo came to their camp, their center, their synagogue,” she wrote. “He singled them out with some excuse . . . . [G]etting them alone, he fondled their breasts and vagina, sometimes thrusting himself against them, and muttering something which they now believe was Yiddish.”[...]
Lilith Magazine
In 1989 the feminist group Women of the Wall defied the Orthodox Jewish establishment and read from their own Torah scroll at the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Shlomo Carlebach, steeped in hasidic tradition but committed to the spiritual rights of women, was the only male rabbi present.
An Orthodox rabbi by training, Rabbi Carlebach took down the separation between women and men in his own synagogue, encouraged women to study and to teach the Jewish texts, and gave private ordination to women before most mainstream Jewish institutions would. Described as a musical genius. Rabbi Carlebach’s melodies—including Adir Hu, Am Yisrael Chai and Esa Einar are sung throughout the world in hasidic shteibels and Reform temples alike; they have sunk so deeply into Jewish consciousness that many don’t realize these are not age-old tunes. And Rabbi Carlebach encouraged women to sing out loud—a challenge to the Orthodox teaching that women’s voices should not be heard publicly lest they arouse men.
Shlomo Carlebach also abandoned the Orthodox injunction that men and women not touch publicly. Indeed, he was known for his frequent hugs of men and women alike, and often said his hope was to hug every Jew—perhaps every person—on earth.
It is an alarming paradox, then, that the man who did so much on behalf of women may also have done some of them harm. In the three years since Rabbi Carlebach’s death, at age 69, ceremonies honoring his life and work have been interrupted by women who claim the rabbi sexually harassed or abused them. In dozens of recent interviews, Lilith has attempted to untangle and to explain Rabbi Carlebach’s complex legacy.
“He was the first person to ordain women, to take down the mechitza, and I think he thought all boundaries were off,” says Abigail Grafton, a psychotherapist whose Jewish Renewal congregation in Berkeley, California, has spent the last six months trying to cope with the allegations.[...]
Among the many people Lilith spoke with, nearly all had heard stories of Rabbi Carlebach’s sexual indiscretions during his more than four decade rabbinic career. Spiritual leaders, psychotherapists and others report numerous incidents, from playful propositions to actual sexual contact. Most of the allegations include middle-of-the-night, sexually charged phone calls and unwanted attention or propositions. Others, which have been slower to emerge, relate to sexual molestation.[...]
However, he was a special rabbi, and those she had looked up to had looked up to him. Rachel, today an artist and martial arts teacher in New Mexico, told almost no one what had happened. Those she did tell said he was “just a dirty old man.” Thirty-five years later she was jogging with Rabbi Gottlieb, both her friend and her congregational rabbi, when they began talking about Rabbi Carlebach. Hearing that others were claiming experiences similar to hers, Rachel broke down in tears. Only then, she recalls, did she get very angry. “I felt acknowledged. It wasn’t a dream, it really happened.”[...]
Other stories have begun to emerge, suggesting that Rachel’s experience was not unique. Robin Goldberg, today a teacher of women’s studies and a research psychoanalyst on women’s issues in California, was 12 years old when Shlomo visited her Orthodox Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, community to lead a singing and dancing concert. He invited all the young people for a preconcert preparation. And it was during the dancing that he started touching her. He kept coming back to her, she reports, whispering in her ear, saying “holy maidele,” and fondling her breast. Twelve years old and Orthodox, she says she didn’t know what to think. Her mother, that afternoon, told her she must have been mistaken and that she must not have understood what was going on. But when she was taken to a dance event led by Rabbi Carlebach years later, while she was in college, she reports that the same thing—dancing, whispering, fondling—happened to her again. [...]
This Fall, Spiegel summarized the stories she had heard regarding Rabbi Carlebach in a letter to Yaakov Ariel, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill who is studying Rabbi Carlebach’s spiritually innovative California synagogue, the House of Love and Prayer. In the letter, which Spiegel made available to Lilith, she states that in the last few years, a number of women in their 40s have approached her “in private and often with deep seated pain” about experiences they had when they were in their teens. “Shlomo came to their camp, their center, their synagogue,” she wrote. “He singled them out with some excuse . . . . [G]etting them alone, he fondled their breasts and vagina, sometimes thrusting himself against them, and muttering something which they now believe was Yiddish.”[...]
Two years ago, following a “Carlebach Shabbos” at my former shul, I wrote an article in which I described the conflict I felt hearing Carlebach being praised for his selflessness and kindness, while simultaneously aware of allegations that he had molested women. I left the article open ended, simply giving my two sides, and left it open for my readers to responded. And boy, did they. The responses flooded in; comments, emails, Facebook messages, even some in-person responses. They came in heavy, heated, and varied. It’s been two years, and I’ve had time to reflect more on the subject, discuss it with more people, and gain some perspective on the issue. Furthermore, since then I’ve spoken to quite a number of his victims, three of whom left comments on my original post. I’d like to address a few things.
Right off the bat, people challenged me on the ethics of sharing an article alleging that someone who is dead and cannot defend himself committed abuse that has never been proven in court. Many people have claimed it’s simply lashon hara, and therefore refuse to even listen. Setting aside whether or not those same people are as careful about the laws of lashon hara when the person under discussion is not one of the spiritual idols, I’ll take it at face value.
It is lashon hara. But one of the exceptions to the prohibitions against speaking lashon hara is when there’s a to’eles, a purpose. Most notably, if there’s a general purpose in the community knowing, if it will prevent some harm, then it is permitted to speak lashon hara. The benefits of discussing Carlebach’s crimes are twofold. First, it sends a message to the community that abusers will have to pay, in one way or another for their crimes, that death is not an escape from the damage caused by sexual abusers. It’s a powerful message to send because there are so many victims out there whose stories are kept hidden by coercion and fear, because the people who keep those secrets are terrified of what their families, their communities might say or do to them if they dare come forward. The more stories are made public, the more people come forward, the more victims will feel safe and secure in coming forward and telling their stories, exposing their abusers, and pursuing justice against them.
Second, for decades Carlebach’s crimes were covered up. For decades, all his victims heard about him was constant praise bordering on deification, any criticism quashed, any attempt at bringing his crimes to light hushed and suppressed. It wasn’t just his followers either who were complicit. Perhaps they can be forgiven because they were blinded by his charisma and façade, but his right-hand men, his gabba’im were aware of the allegations, and actively suppressed the accusers. And for years all his victims heard were stories of Carlebach’s greatness, the constant praise of a man who could do no wrong, simultaneously invalidating their experiences and exalting the man who hurt them. They deserve to have their stories told, to have their experiences validated, and there are enough of them to constitute a to’eles harabim.[...]
This past weekend, after sharing my article again this year in “honor” of Carlebach’s yahrtzeit, two women posted their stories as comments on the article. I’d like to share them below, because it leads me to my final point. The first is by a poster who used the name Shula.
“I was a 15 year old Bais Yaakov girl, enthralled with his music. I was in seventh heaven when he offered me a ride home from a concert. The driver and another person sat in the front, and he sat with me in the back. When he put his arm around my shoulder I was stunned but delighted; and then his hand started massaging my breast. I was 15 and completely naive, had no idea what was happening, but somehow felt embarrassed and ashamed. I just continued to sit silently without moving. This continued until I was dropped off at my house. He told me to come to his hotel room the next morning, and I did! He hugged me very tightly, and I stood frozen, not really understanding what was happening. Then the car came to pick him up, and again I went with him in the car and he dropped me off at school. And I never said a word to anyone, never! I’m a grandmother today, and can still recall that feeling in the pit of my stomach, the confusion and feeling ashamed. I never spoke about this, ever. But all of these comments of denial make me feel I have to confirm that these things happened. He was 40 years old, I was 15. He was an experienced 40 year old man and I was a very naive 15 year old Bais Yaakov girl. In those days we never talked about sex. I had never even spoken to a boy! I didn’t associate him with ‘a boy’ – he was like a parent figure, he was old. But I felt it was something to be ashamed of.
Your article is extremely important – these are conflicts that we have to deal with in life, but if no one ever brings them up, then each person, in each generation, has to over and over again re-invent the wheel of faith. The struggle for faith is hard enough; when these issues are so wrapped in secrecy (and I’m one of those that kept the secret for 53 years!).”[...]
But as to why they didn’t come forward sooner? They did. Or rather, they tried. Many of them tried to confront Carlebach about what he did, but when his gabba’im found out about why they wanted to talk to him, they made sure to keep them away. When his followers found out that someone was harboring such an accusation, they made sure to shut them out, and make it plain that they were no longer welcome. The legend they’d built in their minds and their hearts was too big and too fragile to fail. And the truth is it’s not unexpected. Carlebach, to so many, represents the very essence of their Judaism. For many he’s the very reason they have any connection at all, whether spiritual, cultural, or religious, to Judaism. For many, his message of love and acceptance, of connection to God rather than strict observance of a set of laws, of following the spirit to transcend the letter. Without him that message is lost, and without that message they lose their connection.
I feel for such people. I do. And that’s how we return to the original question: Is it possible to separate the art from the artist; the message from the man. Two years ago, when I wrote the article, I didn’t know the answer. But now, to me, the answer is clear. I’ve decided to let it all go. I no longer listen to or sing his music. I don’t feel personally that it’s appropriate to listen to the music and stories of a man whose art gave him the power and status he needed to get away with abusing so many women. I can’t honestly stand at the Amud and sing L’cha Dodi to any of Carlebach’s tunes and feel anything but dirty. I can’t tell myself that God wants my prayers when they come packaged in such poisoned melodies. [...]
There is another very short anonymous undated tshuva responsa in IM also obviously referring to an unnamed RSC
ReplyDeleteI actually saw him hugging women on stage. It seemed very odd at the time, I was a frum young man trying to keep halacha...
ReplyDeleteThere is no enigma and there is no paradox. It was, in a word, Grooming.
ReplyDeleteI thought there is a Issur Rabbenu Gershon to say bad things on someone who has passed away. Also I am not sure how you are adding anything to what most people are aware of already?
ReplyDeleteNebach Nebach.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the "Tzaddik" that is used in the title of this article? Charismatic personality does not mean Tzaddik. This is an ongoing problem where charismatic personalities like Berland, Jacob Frank, etc abuse their position of authority.
ReplyDeleteWhat does the Halacha say? If a person is not perfect we cannot listen to their music? If a person is a Mumar B'Dvar Echad we cannot listen to their music? What if I got angry today? That's bad. Maybe no one should read my comments today. Tonight I'll do Tshuva. So tomorrow my comments can be read.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering where you got a heter regarding the issur of Lashon Hara?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the toelles of posting this now?
ReplyDeletePerhaps a parallel can be made to the Berland issue.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember Chazal saying something about breaking down walls and getting bitten by a snake...
ReplyDeleteI suggest you go back and study the subject before you offer gratuitous psakim on the matter
ReplyDeletethere are red lines. See the gemora regarding Eliasha ben Abuya as well as reading Rav Moshe's teshuva
ReplyDeletehe did many amazing things which helped many people - but he also had a big yetzer harah
ReplyDeletethat only applies to slander - not telling the truth. If they are already aware of it then there is no problem in the first place
ReplyDeleteI don't recall issuing a psak. I think that I asked an innocent question.
ReplyDeletePlease direct us to the tshuva.
ReplyDeleteGetting angry and sexually harassing minors are veeeeeeeery different subjects and must be dealt in different ways. What he did was a crime condemned by halacha and civil law.
ReplyDeleteIt's unethical to get benefit from his musical talent because he distorted his talent. He was given a gift and instead of using it wisely, he disgraced it, himself and others.
ReplyDeleteSince we're talking about music, I also don't like when hazzanin insert non jewish tunes to the amida/mussaf Kedusha.
The yeshiva oilam was always highly suspicious of him. We listened to his songs clandestinely b/c they were frowned upon. But lately for some reason his music is now having a tremendous rennaisance among the younger yeshiva crowd, perhaps because they find the contemporary music too bland.
ReplyDeleteor more likely they know nothing about him
ReplyDeletedidn't come across as an innocent question. Why don't you try asking again as an innocent question?
ReplyDeleteCould be. They know he wasn't completely kosher, but they think of him more like a hippie weirdo than a sinner. Sort of like today's na nachs.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your heter to print this lashon hara? More specifically, what toeles is there is the lashon hara that you are printing in your blog.
ReplyDeleteI guess that sums him up
ReplyDeleteFirst of all - what is the prohibition about revealing the abuse that Carlebach did?
ReplyDeleteread the articles I published. There are many people who have kept abuse a secret - especially dealing with a public figure such as Carlebach because they think it is prohibited to speak lashon harah. They have not gone for treatment.
People also need to know the dangers of charismatic people - even if they do good things. - like Carlebach.
If you don't understand that people need information about the bad things that people do - then we have nothing more to talk about. It is called knowing what reality is and therefore having a greater chance of defending against harm.
You might want to see what the Maharal says about the prohibition of Lashon Harah - it is not the same as the view of the Chofetz Chaim. This issue has been rehashed a number of times. use the search engine on the side to read the articles on lashon harah and to'eles.
In my humble opinion, it does not come from a place of good middos to perennially beat someone up on his yahrtzeit, especially when we are dealing with a person who has done a tremendous amount of good in his lifetime and who is also reported to have done teshuvah. I know that you claim to be trying to save the world here, and I do not claim to know what is truly in your heart of hearts, but Hashem does know, so just make sure that you are really being honest with yourself. Because if it is not coming completely from a good place, even the Maharal would not agree with what you are doing.
ReplyDeleteyes that is a humble opinion.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I recall this is the first time I have posted on Carlebach and abuse. It is not contrary to your allegation a perennial post on his yahrzeit.
Where did you see that he did teshuva? Did he apologize to the many victims? Obviously not!
You certainly don't understand the Maharal's views on lashon harah
There is a teshuva in the Igros Moshe regarding whether his songs are
ReplyDeleteappropriate since there are allegations that has committed the sin of
singing before mixed audiences.
What is the "sin of singing before mixed audiences?"
No, I really don't think that was it. He followed the typical gradual and calculated process by which a sexual predator grooms his victims and others around him: by building a reputation, gaining trust, admiration, even reverence in the community, then gradually crossing boundaries one small one at a time... until he's got his hands where they don't belong and his victim is so confused by the disconnect between the public persona and this sexual assault, and knows nobody will believe her over him... He was not someone special who happened to succumb to his yetzer hara. He made himself into someone special in order to gain access to the object of his yetzer hara. That's what sexual predators do.
ReplyDeleteSomeone with an ordinary yetzer hara finds a consenting woman to succumb with. Someone who takes advantage of women without their consent is a sexual predator.
Rav O. Yosef listened to Umkulthum (female singer of their tfila baravit) on the radio while growing up. He said there is no problem with kol havora (records, radio etc.) of kol isha when not in her presence. Carlebach had no issues within his songs per se, just his personality or when sitting mixed. Now without his presence, what could possibly be the issue? How many Chazonim Ba'alei Tfila/Singers around today on Yamim Noraim veshaar kol yemos hashana that you can be meranen achrov? The musical problems are, when Kol isha in person and shirei Agovim.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you think Yaakov Talmud got his Gerrer marches from rotototam rototototototam long as the Golus they sing hen Beyamim Noraim beAmida, vehen biYeshiva, @ Tishn un oif Benk, vechen bechol shaar yemot hashanah? Those all are the sounds of the Drums along with trumpets and the whole band with their Klapper gezeig upon the Army Parades in Town Square. What they did was, baYiddisht it. Ever heard from R' Eisikel Kaliver wunder Rabbi aka The Heiliger Kaliver his beloved "Sol a Kakash" he bought off from a Gypsy Goy, translated into many languages and is sung All over the world since the mid-1700's, by all the rebbes, Hungary, Poland, USA, UK, vechol arba kanfot ha'aretz. He had asked him not to play it anymore, and as the legend goes, the Goy forgot it. Get a load o this:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4pGXKFaumE
On this YouTube, you have the recent Kaliver rebbi now in Israel, ben achar ben from R' Aizikel singing it while R' Ovadia Yossef is sitting in the back row, Rabbi Lau standing next to him.
Yes, Singing christmas carols on Maoz Tsur, then you got a problem.
BTW, I received your TY card. Thank You.
Anger is equated to idol worship. The Torah discusses a man seducing a woman (which includes a teenager). The man is to marry the woman. Punishment for idol worship is more severe.
ReplyDeleteMy question to this blog would be why this particular sad chapter of Carlebach was only printed now and not earlier
ReplyDelete.I,also have not a too good story,as my older brother and sister went to his concert in South Florida.There Carlebach started to ask my sister questions,and wanted the number of her telephone,and then my brother popped up and said ,I am her brother,and Carlebach promptly walked away.Even that story has always bothered me,and fer sure all the worst stories of actual contact ,for it shows how he used his exalted image to get what he unfortunately felt a need for.
It is quite ironic,sad and unfortunate to see what fame Carlebach still gets even now,as it is quite obvious that too many people are oblivious to what he unfortunately did.To me,this is the biggest justification of social media,that it allows victims to report abuse in a way that they could have never reported it in the old days.
One final point is that to my best knowledge,I do not think that any of the major Jewish publication companies have ever written a big fat book on Carlebach,and this blog's tragic information on Carlebach is the obvious reason why they have not done so.
What does Carlebach singing in front of mixed audiences have to do with a man listening to a woman sing on the radio?
ReplyDeleteNot that I understand what the problem is of singing for a mixed audience, but I don't get your comparison.
this was printed because I received a link to the recent blog post which I put in the post
ReplyDeleteI went through Rav Moshe's teshuva. Twice. Which part refers to red lines?
ReplyDeleteThere are many good books about him. He may have been a flawed person in some ways, but in many other ways, he was a much, much greater person than many of his peers. It bothers me when people use tunnel vision and miss out on the big picture, which happens to be a general failing of the person who runs this blog.
ReplyDeleteyes there are many sexual molestors who have done good things. Therefore you think we should forgive them their minor flaws such as rape and molestation?!
ReplyDeleteYes a person like yourself clearly has trouble understanding what I am doing on this blog and I can't understand why you consider yourself to be rational and knowledgeable. One of us is clearly clueless
I am not sure your translation is correct. Please tell me what you think Rav Moshe was writing?
ReplyDeletelistening to his music on CD is probably of no harm. (as I think listening to non frum music is also of no harm).
ReplyDeleteTikun godol osu bebeis hamikdash. In bayis sheini they built a porch for the women to observe the simchat beit hashoevah, so that the men and women should not intermingle. And that's where the mechitza stems from, therefore it is ossur to sit together in one hall.
ReplyDeleteAnd now for the comparison. The heter to listen to a woman sing is, since she is not physically there, it is not shayich kol beishah erva, there is no leading on to it. Although Carlebach led people to mingling of which is a flaw, but that is only in his character and while sitting in his mixed audience. Not so when listening to his records, no mixed and no mingling there. Hope this helps.
I hoped the Yad Moshe / DT can direct us. Couldn't find it in the yad.
ReplyDeleteHistorically, chazzanim were never the most respectable of the klei kodesh. Maybe that's why there is so much discussion in SA and its meforshim commentators.
ReplyDelete2. Grooming would not be RSC's style. Maybe for his more permanent (of a sort) relationships. But Those were consensual / of age. Or rather of his age.
3. His behavior was well known in his lifetime. I recall his "hitting" on a date of mine when we went to a kumzitz of his. She didn't mind (it didn't go further, so she didn't mind.). We all knew what was going on.
4. This is a constant problem with kiruv professionals. That should be the topic of this post. (Or another post.)
No, he does not say that. Regarding the tunes from before he becomes an apikores, he says they are definitely permitted. And even the tunes he makes afterward, he is strongly מצדד that they are permitted, because the issur is to memorialize his name on a דבר שבקדושה, but the tunes are דברי חול, even if they are used to sing holy words.
ReplyDeleteHere's the relevant paragraph:
ובעצם מסופקני אף בהניגונים שעשה אחר שסני שומעניה, אם הם ניגונים
כשרים שאין בהם קלות שראוין לנגנם, אם יש לזה ענין הנחת שם למעשה רשעים, דמסתבר
דרק בעניני קדושה ככתיבת ס"ת שהוא חשיבות הנחת שמם בדבר קדושה הוא אסור
להרמב"ם אבל בעניני חול אין בזה שום חשיבות במה שיהיה שמם עליהם ואין לאסור.
וכמו שפשוט שמותר להשתמש וגם לקרא שמם על עניני חדוש ברפואות ומאשינעס /ומכונות/
וכדומה אלמא דרק בעניני קדושה הוא גנאי להניח שם לאפיקורסים ולא בעניני חול.
וא"כ גם הניגונים הם עניני חול דאין להם שום קדושה ולכן אף שעשו לנגן
בניגונים אלו דברי קדושה אפשר אין להחשיב שהוא הנחת שם להרשע בדברי קדושה כיון
שבעצם הניגונים שחידש אין בהם קדושה. וא"כ אף ניגונים אלו שעשה אחר שסני
שומעניה נמי יותר נוטה שאין לאסור לנגן בהם. אך באלו יש לבני תורה ובע"נ
להחמיר כיון שיש גם טעם לאסור אף שהוא טעם קלוש.
he was a much, much greater person than many of his peers.
ReplyDeleteI asume that by "peers" you mean ordinary frum Jews, who kept the 613 and did not give in to their yetzer hara thereby causing a vast chilul Hashem. Why do you consider him a much, much greater person than they? Or does "peers" refer to some other group?
See the teshuva of the Bach siman 127 part 5.
ReplyDeleteThis is one if the tshuvot of RMF that most O people and O poskim do not agree with.
ReplyDeleteThere are many occasions when he would come to Lakewood, for example, and sing and daven for the amud. During rav shneur's lifetime, when rav shneur's word was followed in Lakewood.
What you write is a total perversion of Torah. You take an aggadic statement and blow it out of proportion, and you take one halacha concerning seduction and view it as the sum of the entire topic. The man is to marry the woman if she so desires, because in that culture (and in many cultures now) a non-virgin was viewed as "damaged gods," who may otherwise have a hard time getting married. That says nothing about whatever extrajudicial punishments the Beis Din could place on the man if they saw fit (see Sanhedrin 46a). There is no punishment for getting angry, the comparison to idol worship notwithstanding.
ReplyDeletesee the end of the teshuva
ReplyDeleteI did. He's saying there that Carlebach בכלל doesn't come into this discussion, even by דבר שבקדושה, b/c he was a sinner לתיאבון, and not a כופר. But the law of a כופר he discusses in the earlier paragraphs, and in the paragraph I cited, which discusses someone who is a kofer, I believe he says what I claim.
ReplyDeleteGrooming involves not only the individual victims but the community at large, which was definitely his style. It involves a gradual process of crossing accepted boundaries, which was also definitely his style. When those boundary violations were overlooked he knew it was safe to cross sexual boundaries and that regardless of whether or not it was well known, no one would say anything about it out loud, no one would stop him. And no one did. And he is still respected and revered today despite what is known! He was a master groomer.
ReplyDeleteIt is if you are doing it as a spiritual experience - paying attention to the words.
ReplyDeletewe agree that if he was a kofer that Reb Moshe says that is a red line? Point of the teshuva is what are the red lines dealing with music from someone who does problematic matters
ReplyDeleteLet me pose a more complex problem. And this applies beyond Carlebach. A Rav who was respected for his learning, nevertheless he was not scrupulous in halacha , and would hug women (married ones!). What happens to his legacy of shiurim and piskei halacha? Can one rely on anything such a person said?
ReplyDeleteAdding the community to the grooming targets is like saying every (successful) musician and askan community leader to the debate. Community grooming, as you call it, is PR, which every successful musician and community leader practices. Note, any musician that does not promote himself, is not particularly successful. Some have gimmicks, some have chassidim of sorts, and most are just another chaxzan.
ReplyDeleteWould you pick a successful surgeon with a tremendous ly good reputation as a surgeon, but is personally morally deficient (by reputation)?
ReplyDeletego back to the archives and see the articles about Meir Pogrow
ReplyDeleteOk. Thank you. I had understood it differently.
ReplyDeleteSo a Torah Mitzvah is a product of a culture and changes according to cultural changes? I didn't know that.
ReplyDeleteOf course not. In the same way that not every teacher or youth counselor or coach (or seminary principal, or conversion rabbi or master Torah teacher, etc...) is a potential molester but some people who are seeking to molest will specifically become teachers, youth counselors and coaches in order to have access AND, if they do it well, a certain degree of community-bestowed leeway that others aren't given. Should you be suspicious of every teacher or youth counselor or male teacher of women and girls? Not suspicious but cautious with an understanding of how such positions are often used nefariously and of how to recognize this kind of grooming. Same thing with musicians and chazzanim. It's not the PR that's the problem, it's the progression to the next stage of gradually crossing commonly accepted boundaries and getting a pass each time. This is a recognized component of grooming. I highly recommend Dr. Carla Van Dam's book The Socially Skilled Child Molester for a more thorough understanding of the process.
ReplyDeleteYour analogy is flawed. Moral deficiency is completely irrelevant to successful surgery or legal defense (actually, moral deficiency might actually correlate positively with successful legal defense). If you're just listening to Carlebach the same way you'd listen to Bach, then maybe it would make no difference. That's not the way Carlebach is generally viewed or listened to. He's viewed as a way to connect to God and Torah, as a spiritual inspiration. Moral deficiency is highly relevant in that case.
ReplyDeletePeers means people who were with him in Lakewood some of whom later became roshei yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteAs far as i know, RSC was not accused of rape. And yes, I believe that Hashem has punished him in Gehinnom for giving in to his Yetzer Hara, and he is now sitting in Gan Eden for all the good that he has done. So if that is how Hashem views the man at this point in time, I will also do the same.
ReplyDeleteMe neither. Talk about perversion of Torah. . .
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly did you not know? You didn't know that he marries her only if that is her desire? You didn't know that Beis Din has the authority to impose punishments as they see fit?
ReplyDeletebut since you are not a navi and I doubt you have ruach hakodesh - your reports from the Next World are irrelevant. But if it makes you feel good and no one is harmed that is fine for you but it doesn't really hold any interest for the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteWell, I know some of those you call his peers from his yeshiva days. The idea that he was greater than they is laughable to me. But to each his own.
ReplyDeleteIn the paragraph I pasted, R' Moshe says that even in the case of a kofer, music is not a problem, b/c the only problem is memorializing him on a דבר שבקדושה, and music is חול. That means there is no red line even in the case of a kofer. Do you read it differently?
ReplyDeleteinteresting perspective - I don’t feel personally that it’s appropriate to listen to the music and stories of a man whose art gave him the power and status he needed to get away with abusing so many women. Also I used to disapprove of the hugs as not appropriate but more in line of the platonic handshake , showing of warmh and caring , but one needs to not only look at his intentions but more important how the women and girls expereinced the ' hugs'. Can we assume he did teshuvah ? - music is very spiritual and neutral - how should we relate to the music ?
ReplyDeleteyes. please translate this part
ReplyDeleteא"כ כ"ש שמומר לתיאבון כשמאמין בקדושת התורה שכשר לקרות בו. וכ"ש בעבריין רק לדבר אחד לתיאבון דכשר הס"ת שיכתוב. וא"כ כ"ש הניגונים שעושה שרשאין לנגן בהם ואין להחמיר אף לבני תורה ובעלי נפש. ואם סני שומעניה גם לעניני כפירה אז הוא כדכתבתי לעיל שאלו שעשה מתחלה אין מקום להחמיר כלל ואף אלו שעשה אח"כ מסתבר יותר שאין לאסור כיון שאינם ענין קדושה
אבל לבני תורה ובע"נ ראוי להחמיר,
First three lines: Mumar l'teiavon the sefer Torah may be used. Avaryon l'davar echad l'teiavon likewise. And certainly their nigunim are fine even for a ben Torah & a baal nefesh.
ReplyDeleteNext three lines: If he's a kofer, the music from beforehand is fine. Even the music he makes afterward, it's mistaber that there is no reason for an issur, since they are not a matter of kedushah.
Final line: But for a ben Torah and baal nefesh, ראוי להחמיר.
So he says music is permitted in all cases. No red line.
There is a ראוי להחמיר for more elevated people, but that's not an issur.
In addition, as the Chafetz Chaim points out, regardless of the severity in aggadic literature concerning bad middos, the halacha does not treat someone who acts in accordance with his bad middos, e.g., getting angry, the same way it treats someone who commits actual transgressions. So your point is all the less relevant.
ReplyDeleteThere is a red line for a kofer for people very concerned about spirituality. but Reb Moshe is saying that for music there is generally no red line
ReplyDeleteIn sum,Reb Moshe describes the parameters (red lines) of concern. It has to be something kadosh - such as a sefer Torah but that music does not quality. There is no red line for ordinary sins for music and even for heresy it is only a red line for elevated people.
As I said Reb Moshe is searching for the red lines.
We are in agreement then. On something finally! :)
ReplyDeleteit was bound to happen
ReplyDeleteWhat is laughable about a person who had genuine, unparalleled Ahavas Yisroel and who was mekarev multitudes to Hashem? Did you ever read any of the books about him? When people get to shomayim, those are the things that count, not if the person wore a frock and an up-hat but in his heart desired kovod. But keep on laughing. As you said, to each his own.
ReplyDeleteWhat is laughable is the idea that he is greater than great rabbonim, roshei yeshiva and talmidei chachomim who did not commit serious sins.
ReplyDeleteYes, I read Halberstam's book.
No idea how you know what people desire in their hearts. ה' יראה ללבב, not you.
You're saying the problem was the taaruvos, not the singing in front of them? Nu nu. Doesn't seem to be the mashmaus of R' Moshe, but maybe.
ReplyDeleteAcc. to your reasoning, it would fine to listen to Carlebach live too, so long as he's not singing to the mingling. [Assuming he were still alive.] So again, no comparison really to the case of listening to a woman on a recording.
Unethical? Based on what or whose set of ethics, pray tell?
ReplyDeleteThat's one of the WORST perversion and distortion of Torah I have ever read in my life. You should be ashamed of yourself.
ReplyDeleteCheck out these poskim that argue:
ReplyDeleteRav moshe stern be'er moshe
chelek 6 kuntrus electric siman 74
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=889&st=&pgnum=513&hilite=
Rav menashe klein mishna halachos
chelek 6 siman 108
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1878&st=&pgnum=123&hilite=
During rav shneur's lifetime, when rav shneur's word was followed in Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteThat's hard to believe.
I don't want to minimize reports of sins בין אדם לחבירו, but what about sins בין אדם למקום, in other words consensual negiah, which were apparently witnessed by hundreds? We are so sensitized to בין אדם לחבירו sins, that we forget that בין אדם למקום sins are also completely incompatible with being a tzadik.
ReplyDeleteI also wonder if someone who is known to sin בין אדם למקום loses his Chezkas Kashrus for בין אדם לחבירו, so that itself allows you to believe these reports.
I once went to a Chanuka gathering of Shlomo Carlebach and witnessed him hugging girls. I told him to stop it. His assistant rabbi told me not to worry about it since Rabbi Freifeld was aware of this behavior and wasn't bothered by it. I later asked Rabbi Friefeld about this and he said that I did the right thing in telling Carlebach to stop.
ReplyDeleteThe rational that Carlebach used was that he was simply expressing warm feelings to a fellow human for kiruv purposes and it meant nothing more. However it was clear that many of the girls he hugged were already frum. It is also clear from the many reports of abuse that he had feelings that went way beyond expressions of loving his fellow man.
I'm just wondering what the point is to start a whole debate about a dead person
ReplyDeletewhat debate - I have heard that anyone doesn't believe he has abuse a significant number of women
ReplyDeletethe benefit of mentioning his abuse is discussed in the articles I linked to in the post.
If a person is a rapist but will not do it again - do you say let's forget about it?
If a person kills in a hit and run accident and will never do it again - do you say to forget about it
If a Nazi guard is now a 90 year old man - incapacitated by a stroke and will never harm anyone - do you say "don't talk about his past"?
If the Torah says to punish transgression - should a person simply be forgiven if he promises never to do it again?
Why does the fact that he is dead confer automatic immunity and amnesia regarding what he has done?
Perhaps. Consider this, though:
ReplyDelete(1) Idol worship is about being subservient to an impure source.
(2) Anger leads to being "ruled over by all kinds of Gehinom".
Should one learn Torah from someone subject to fits of anger? Should one even associate with someone who is angry and capable of "destroying the world" in his pique?
Hard to believe:
ReplyDeleteThat rav shneur's word was followed in Lakewood?
2. Even today, there's a carlebach shul in Lakewood, run by one of his longtime chassid, a second generation Lakewooder.
Enough shame to spread around. In the post, a woman described being in a car and being molested. I am not blaming the woman for what happened to her. But I ask: was she unaware that her molester touches women? Did she think she would be exempt from being subject to that behavior? She writes she had had little contact with men till then. Presumably, she went to only all-girls schools. Did she then decide to go "slumming" and attend a mixed audience concert? She didn't expect to be touched, but she inadvertently put herself in reach of a toucher.
ReplyDeleteI am really distrubed by your comment. I assume you have never met a Beis Yaakov girl. I assume you don't know what it means to be sheltered from not only knowledge of what a pervert is but even what about the sexual interaction of men and women. It is clear from the comments in the article that the women he molested could not conceive that he would due such a thing - even those who were knowledgeable about sexual interactions.
ReplyDeleteIt is like the assistant coach who saw his boss Jerry Sandusky raping a boy in the shower - he could not conceive that that was actually happening. People who interact with a tzadik do not view yichud as a possible opportunity to be molested or raped
It is not that she didn't "expect" to be touched. She could not conceive that anything of this nature could possibly happen. Do you ever go into your house and think about the possibility there is an elephant inside? What would happen if you actually found one inside?
While it is possible - none of us believe that it will really happen.
the case of anger is explained by analogy. That analogy is only an explanatory devise. However there is simply no expectation that the analogy is to be taken literally. Chazal often use such comparisons to get peoples attention. Do you think embarrassing another person is actually murder?
ReplyDeleteLook at the Rambam's commentary to the Mishna Sanhedrin 7.4 where he notes that Chazal use hyperbole in describing sexual sins in order that people avoid them. Or note the psak that zera l'vatala is the worst sin possible - and then note the commentaries which say lav davka. What does it mean that it is the worst sin but it really isn't?
The Chasam Sofer says that since many people don't take rabbinic laws seriously they should all be described as Torah prohibitions. Such a description doesn't change the reality that they are not Torah prohibitions. In fact as the Maharetz Chajes responded - the Rambam says upgrading prohibitions is prohibited by baal tosif.
Please don't take a mussar speech and generate halachic understanding from it.
I agree with you in that the whole idea of sports coaching is a firm of grooming. And by extension, charismatic teachers who want to be role models whose behavior is emulated. And further, charismatic religious leaders of all / most religions, kiruv professionals, sports stars, etc.
ReplyDelete(I was going to add medical and mental health professionals, but they often, not always, create a distance between them and the patient, by creating a professional distance, that maybe the aboves should also create.,)
Yes, listening to carlebach is a method of spiritual inspiration. According to you, that is improper? Maybe to you, but not to me.
ReplyDeleteSo should we avoid people who were close to MP, cause they are flawed?
ReplyDeletewhose talking about people who were close?
ReplyDeleteThe introduction to kedusha RH and YK "ein kitzvah" which accepted halacha is we are not allowed to deviate from, is an old eastern European drinking song.
ReplyDeleteDo much for non Jewish tunes.
2. Carlebach is unique, in that he was the last to create his own music. (Even BZShenker, who passed away this Sunday)
I'm not ruling that angry people should be executed. I am pointing out that the repercussions of being angry can be severe. A person who is having all types of Gehinom ruling over him is clearly suffering immensely. The analogies were chosen carefully. The three worst sins are murder, Giluy Arayos, and idol worship. Zera L'vatala has aspects of all three. And since it is a Torah Mitzvah to listen to the Rabbis, every D'rabanan has an aspect of a D'orysa. In my experience, those who dismiss D'rabananon Mitzvos almost inevitably are lead to transgress D'orysa Mitzvos. Breaking the fence leads to stepping on the flowers.
ReplyDeleteBut the assistant coach reported it, it was investigated by the police, and nothing happened. The police were probably followed their duty to cover up for the university, but what is the assistant coach to do? Go further, andand risk get sued?
ReplyDeletepossibly. Or if he was more focused on the possibility he should have intervened. My point was that just because a situation might result in something doesn't mean that people realistic think about and make a conscious choice with the knowledge that it might happen.
ReplyDeleteyou are ignoring what I said.
ReplyDeleteSaying that something is analogous to something doesn't mean that it is that thing.
Rabbinic laws are not Doreissa - even though there are many derashos said that blurred the distinctions.
no one is saying that being angry can't lead to serious problems
But there is a difference between facing reality and making a derasha. With a derasha I can create all sorts of alternative universes which might be help to scare people into doing what they should - but it still is a derasha. So if you are dealing with ignorant people or children and you want to tell them about the monster who will hurt them if they don't do what you tell them - perhaps you can justify yourself. It still doesn't change the reality there is nop monster who will come and get them.
As Eve found out - making fences and confusing them with the actual prohibition can lead to a dangerous situation also.
there are those who claim that taking non-Jewish music and putting Jewish words - is an act of santification and elevation. I was told that this is in fact the chassidic view.
ReplyDeleteI just feel that he's dead and it's just saying lashon hora, I'm sure hes in gan Eden by now.
ReplyDeleteAlso just wondering who is ur Dass Torah that tells u that what u do is ok or maybe u are Ur own Dass Torah
It's hard to believe that a shul where R Shneur's word was followed had R Carlebach daven for the Amud. Did he daven at the modern orthodox congregation which predates the yeshiva? I have rumors about R Carlebach and Lakewood just as reliable as yours, that the core Lakewooders stayed far away from him. Do you have first hand information?
ReplyDeleteEven today...<>
Today Lakewood is becoming as diverse as New York, why shouldn't it have also a Carlebach minyan?
And it's standing room only on Friday nights...
As RDE comments below, those people "more likely they know nothing about him".
I agree with you in that the whole idea of sports coaching is a firm of grooming.
ReplyDeleteRight. Everything is grooming, just like everything is racism.
Since when are your feelings of such importance that anyone should be concerned about them?. Do you have any knowledge of halacha or whatever pops into your head you decide is the halacha? Are you a respected rav who has spent most of your life learning Torah or are you simply a layman who is taking a break from his 9 to 5 job to comment?
ReplyDeleteRegarding my Daas Torah - I have spent a lot of time discussing matters with Rav Sternbuch over the years. On major issues I discuss them with talmidei chachomim that I respect. I do have some knowledge of halacha and hashkofa - if you want to challenge me my competence and judgment - please provide something besides your feelings.
Why did the assistant rabbi single out R Freifeld?
ReplyDeleteDid you initiate or did Rabbi Freifeld initiate a discussion if you could or should go again?Why did the assistant rabbi single out R Freifeld?
Did you initiate or did Rabbi Freifeld initiate a discussion if you could or should go again?
i know people who refuse to patronize a certain doctor with a very good reputation, because he refused to give his wife a get within ten days of separation.
ReplyDeleteI actually learn most of the day and have knowledge in Halacha and Gemara. And I guarantee u that there is not one Rav or gadol who agrees to this blog. Including Rav moshe sterbuch. It's all about lashon hora and inappropriate topics. Ur avodas Zara is arayos and lashon hora and malbin pnei chaveiro which is tantamount to killing
ReplyDeleteYay, uv done all the chamuros
halachot of hiring a shliach tzibur (laws of a cantor):
ReplyDeleteapparantely, there is no outright prohibition for such a person to be chazzan cantor.
yes, must be over thirty with a beard with children distinguished all kinds of rules which non specifically would exclude.
but at the end, but "must be acceptable to the kahal" congregation.
and we dont follow these rules anyway. (not thirty, not a beard, not even acceptable to the kahal.)
I have knowledge in Gemara and Halacha and my occupation is Torah study. I'm am pretty sure that there is no Rav or gadol that holds of this blog including Rav moshe sterbuch. It's a place of gilui arayos shefichos damim and loshan hora.
ReplyDeleteU seem to really enjoy talking about perverted things , im wondering if there is something about YOU that we don't know about. Plz post my message
What you have done brings to mind the Gemara that happens to be tomorrow's Daf Yomi:
ReplyDeleteHabo al eshes ish missaso bechenek, veyesh lo chelek le'olam haba, aval hamalbin es pnei chaveiro berabim ain lo chelek leolam haba.
The fact that you have done this with no compunction whatsoever speaks volumes about your yiras shomayim and your gaavah. Go bring me one major talmid chochom who condones what you did.
לכן גם בעובדא זו הניגונים שעשה כשהיה בכשרותו שאף אם נימא שיש בזה ענין הנחת השם לעושה הניגונים אין לאסור דהרי הוא הנחת השם על זמן כשרותו שליכא קפידא בזה ומותר. ואף לבני תורה ובעלי נפש אין מקום להחמיר.
ReplyDeleteאבל בעניני חול אין בזה שום חשיבות במה שיהיה שמם עליהם ואין לאסור.
וא"כ אף ניגונים אלו שעשה אחר שסני שומעניה נמי יותר נוטה שאין לאסור לנגן בהם. אך באלו יש לבני תורה ובע"נ להחמיר כיון שיש גם טעם לאסור אף שהוא טעם קלוש.
והנה בעובדא זו שהסני שומעניה אינו בעניני כפירה אלא בעניני קלות ראש לנגן בפני בחורים ובתולות יחד
a) According to R' Moshe, the problem with the singer is when he sings in front of a mixed audience, and he brings them to ta'aruves.
ועתה אין שמועתו טובה שמכנס בחורים ובתולות יחד ומזמר לפניהם...,
והנה בעובדא זו שהסני שומעניה אינו בעניני כפירה אלא בעניני קלות ראש לנגן בפני בחורים ובתולות יחד...
b) However, songs created in prior is Ok to listen.
לכן גם בעובדא זו הניגונים שעשה כשהיה בכשרותו שאף אם נימא שיש בזה ענין הנחת השם לעושה הניגונים אין לאסור דהרי הוא הנחת השם על זמן כשרותו שליכא קפידא בזה ומותר. ואף לבני תורה ובעלי נפש אין מקום להחמיר.
c) Songs created after his bad reputation is also allowed except for those Baalei nefesh and Bnei Torah.
וא"כ אף ניגונים אלו שעשה אחר שסני שומעניה נמי יותר נוטה שאין לאסור לנגן בהם. אך באלו יש לבני תורה ובע"נ להחמיר כיון שיש גם טעם לאסור אף שהוא טעם קלוש.
***************************************************************************
You're saying the problem was the taaruvos, not the singing in front of them? Nu nu. Doesn't seem to be the mashmaus of R' Moshe, but maybe.
Acc. to your reasoning, it would fine to listen to Carlebach live too, so long as he's not singing to the mingling. [Assuming he were still alive.] So again, no comparison really to the case of listening to a woman on a recording.
***********************************
It is clear from R' Moshe that while alive, the flaw was 1) in the singer when he started singing in front of a mixed Jewish audience.
2) Hence, the listeners are also clearly guilty of sitting beta'aruves. בחורים ובתולות יחד
see a) befeirush and not mashmaus
Suppose he sang then in front of Akum with mixed audience, not a problem.
R' Moshe differentiates *playing and listening* songs of before and after his bad reputation. Before, when only in separate seating's, not a problem. After bad reputation, only for those of Baalei Nefesh and Bnei Torah. While alive and in person, and you be sitting there, you got a problem. Now that he is deceased, depends to which group you associate yourself. Listening to Umkulthum on radio or Record where the issue to what it might lead to if in person, is a non-issue. Same here with listening to Carlebach songs.
Therefore, note my choice of words in my first tshuva to you: 1) just his personality or 2) when sitting mixed..
and the equivalent choice of words in my second tshuva to you: Although Carlebach led people to mingling of which is a flaw, but that is only in his 1) character and while 2) sitting in his mixed audience. Not so when listening to his records, no mixed and no mingling there....
I brought you all the relevant excerpts from R' Moshe, the various scenarios, the flaws and drawbacks and the comparison of why, when not in their presence. I believe I covered all bases.
if you really believe what you say than why are you sticking around?
ReplyDeletehe knew him and he knew me
ReplyDeleteI initiated the discussion with Rabbi Freifeld regarding this and we did not discuss about going again. I just wanted to verify whether he had given his approval for Carlebach's behavior which is what this assistant rabbi was implying
sorry but the gemora you have quoted is not brought as halacha
ReplyDeleteOh, but I'm not complaining of old eastern European tunes... I'm complaining of certain Modern Orthodox hazzanin I've seen singing kedusha at the sound of Frank Sinatra's "My Way" and other more modern songs, even famous opera songs... the few times I saw it, I was just very distracted by the tune...
ReplyDeleteUnique or not, he used his talent to sexually harass minors. His song does not enter my home.
ReplyDeleteWoman???? A 15 year old BY girls is absolutely NOT a woman... some of these girls are extremely innocent and never, ever received any information regarding physical contact dangers. Depending on the neighborhood/school, a 15 yo BY girl has absolutely no clue of men/women matters... you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteAs the Vilna Gaon said, Torah is like water on the ground making wherever is there to grow, be it a healthy plant of a poisonous one. Careful, because you are using Torah to justify the unjustifiable.
Based on the set of decency.
ReplyDeleteAmazing medical results were known through human torture... is it right to save lives today using these results? No. Why? Because of ethics.
Anything that breaks decency, is unethical.
I didn't even think about these tunes (some I just don't know)... I referred to some very modern tunes I recently heard while visiting two MO shuls... Sinatra, "Pavarotti" songs... that's what I was referring to.
ReplyDeleteI still don't think you're understanding what grooming by a sexual predator is. Sports coaching is not grooming unless it's grooming. Grooming involves calculated and gradual boundary crossing. It's possible to be a sports coach while maintaining appropriate boundaries.
ReplyDeleteGood for them. I certainly don't object to that. I might even do that myself. But I would also not object if someone needed his medical services specifically and therefore would patronize him because his personal status is not an impediment to providing good medical care and they need good medical care. I do consider sexual predation and the continued denial of it to be such a moral deficiency as to be an impediment to spiritual inspiration.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah speaks about a woman being seduced. A girl at 12 1/2 is a woman. This girl/woman was an innocent. Yet after being fondled she then decides to go to the fondler's hotel room. After sleeping on it all night. Classic case of seduction. No force involved. The girl's knowledge level at that point is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteThen what are the parameters of the "seduced girl" that the Torah is commanding us about?
ReplyDeleteI think I agree with everything you've written. Except the implication that the subject of the post acted like a monster.
ReplyDelete"He made himself into someone special in order to gain access to the object of his yetzer hara. That's what sexual predators do."
ReplyDeleteThat's a decidedly vicious and uncharitable view of a man who did lots of remarkable Chessed. He died penniless, gave all his concert earnings away. Did you know that?
A more plausible explanation is that he became someone special. Then because he had no boundaries (shmiras negiah) he started slipping
In certain respects (ahavas yisrael, chesed) he was unparallelled.
ReplyDeleteName me another household name who matches up.
Of course R Aryeh Levin zatsal (lehavdil) springs to mind, but not many others.
Sports coaching involves getting close to the players, becoming a mentor plus, strong penalties for not following instructions, for not following the leader. Meals with mentor, livking in mentors home, usually male mentor (even female sports figures, like Olympic calisthenics and skating, but the higher end ones bring in a female hours mother type) no school (home schooling), no social interactions with friends of same age (sometimes only those in same sports / grooming home), mentors usually grew up in same groomed environment, and on and on.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that the stereotype grooming environment?
Then what was the lipa business all about (besides the disgusting fact they did it at the last minute, costing him and his investors a bundle.)?
ReplyDeleteThe objection there was specifically non Jewish tunes.
So his songs were inspired by his acts of molestation? I fail to see your analogy. Because a person acted indecently in one area of his life, he can do no good in any other area?
ReplyDeleteRe: 15 year old BY girls.
ReplyDeleteThat is part if the problem. By keeping them innocent, you make them subject to such environment.
And in two years, do they know what's gonna happen to them? Do they know what getting married is all about?
By keeping them immature till then, are they really going to get mature in two to four years?
So Lakewood residents, many business men (and women), are naive, don't know what's going on? I highly doubt it.
ReplyDelete2. One of the leading talmidim of RAK, a major RE power in Lakewood (and hated for that, but he's connected), who had his own shul, would tell me how RSC would come into town, word would get out, and he would have a public kumzitz (jam session), just to entertain (or inspire) those who came, all impromptu.
Your krumkeit and amaratzos is breathtaking.
ReplyDeleteSo a gemara that is not brought as halacha has no meaning to you???
I imagine that there are red lines through most of your shas. . .
Second of all, this gemara is not brought as a halacha because it is not a halacha. It does not say that a person should go with a sofek eishes ish. It says "noach lo," that it is a feeling that one should have. The same for the following gemara, which is also not brought as halacha: noach lo leadam sheyapil es atzmo lekivshan haeish ve'al yalbin es penei chaveiro berabim. It is not brought in halachos of yehareg ve'al yaavor. This is because it is not a halacha but a mussar. It is a feeling that one should have that it is worse to embarrass someone than to jump into fire, a feeling which you definitely do not possess, maybe because you only learn the gemaras that are brought as halacha.
You live in Har Nof; Har Hamenuchos is right around the corner. Do your neshama a favor and bring a minyan to Shlomo Carlebach's kever and beg for his mechila. Otherwise you are doomed.
Do you have an idea from whence the beloved Yossele Rosenblatt is coming from, from whence he composed the world reknowned Hinneni heoni, and all the Yamim noraim chants and songs. It is non other than Caruso (No, not the Robinson one) took him under his wings and polished hip up to such heights, asher kamohu lo haya, veachrov lo yihye!
ReplyDeletedo you think you are the gadol hador? or maybe just a second string rebbe?
ReplyDeleteYou have obviously missed the discussion of this - especially when Rav Feldman made a similar statement and was criticized by Rav Malinowitz. The agaddata does provide awareness of issues - but as the Maharal points out it is not precise because it is not halacha. If there are other factors in play this gemora provides no guidance of what to do.
It is just seat of pants poskim like you - who fire off pronouncements without an intelligent understand of either the facts or how to prioritize issues. In short you are simply an am haaretz.
I would suggest you do everyone a favor and put away your soapbox - and computer - and go back to the beis medrash where you can learn something before you open your mouth. Feaelings of righteous indignation which are based on nonsense are not much use.
not sure why you are stopping at marriage. there are problems after marriage - not only because of the ignorance but also because the rabbinic advisors and rebbitzen are not necessarily knowledgeable about the topic either.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky wrote a haskosma to a book on Shalom Bayis acknowldging the he was not a mumcha on the topic. the Novominsker Rebbe told me over 30 years ago that there are many 8 year olds who probably know more about sexual issues than he does. Mishkon Yisroel - with haskama from major gedolim - was written because of the widespread ignorance on the topic. I was told that there was person who was close with Rav Moshe who asked him what he should study in college and was told sex therapy. "Because I am not an expert so you learn the material and come and teach it to me"
Why did Moshe and David become leaders of the Jewish people - because of the way they dealt with sheep. There is a widespread belief that krumkeit in one area manifests itself in other areas. Just like goodness in one area is assumed to manifest itself in other areas.
ReplyDeleteas we have mentioned a number of times - charismatic people have a great danger of believing that they are different and that they don't have the same rules as other people. They might even think that by molesting a lonely misfit they are showing love. This is mentioned by Rav Tzadok dealing with Jesus and Shabtzai Tzvi
ReplyDeleteShabtzai Tzvi was also a great kiruv rabbi - but he did other things which were not so nice.
not sure what your question is. If a man persuades an unmarried woman to have sexual relationship with him even though she didn't seek it out - we say that he seduced her. If she is a child - aside from the Rambam - she is viewed as being raped.
ReplyDeletethe halacha assumes that a girl at 12 is knowledgable enough to protect herself while a child is assumed not to be able to protect themselves. The question is whether in modern times - when everyone is being sheltered so as to not know about sex - is there really a difference between children and teenagers or even young adults.
ReplyDeleteYes, I meant marriage meaning married life, not the bedroom issues (that too) but married life. Don't assume everyone behaves like her father (as if she knows about her parents everyday living life.)
ReplyDeleteBut that isn't taught, not in BY, not in yeshiva. And not in kallah or chosdon classes. (MO do, depending on . . .)
That was when women got married at 12, 13, or a little later. And though they kept tzniyut issues, they knew what was going on. They weren't naïve.
ReplyDeleteToday's BY girls (and yeshiva boys) definitely are naïve. At 17, 19, or 25.
That answers my question. So if a man invites a girl 12 or over to his hotel room and she is slowly pulled, without force, step by step, into having relations with him, then that is the case of seduction the Torah is commanding us about.
ReplyDeleteIsn't this Mitzvah commanded for all times and places? I assume the knowledge level of the girl going into the seduction is irrelevant. Thus, a man who seduces women by singing beautiful songs, lures them into his car and his hotel room, is not condemned by the Torah so I don't feel compelled to condemn him either.
ReplyDeleteare you making things up? where does it say that the Torah doesn't condemn relations outside of marriage?!
ReplyDeleteDepending on the neighborhood, the girls have no clue about anything.
ReplyDeleteI also think it's dangerous.
Yes, you're right.
ReplyDeleteAsk Michael Jackson's lawyer.
ReplyDeleteRight. Moshe and David showed that they cared even about sheep, when no one was watching and when there was no kovod involved. It was this same exact trait that was desired by Hashem for leading of the Jewish People. Carlebach's failings, on the other hand, had nothing to do with his good side. And krumkeit refers to bad de'os and hashkafos, not falling prey to your yetzer hara. I'm sure that if you were around in David Hamelech's time, you would be posting about him on your blog and would be among his enemies who said that he was not fit to be king because of his relationship with Batsheva. Fortunately, Hashem disagrees with you.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering what a 15 year old BY girl is doing around a man who has a known reputation for hugging women.
ReplyDeleteI am neither of the two, but I am willing to bet that I have spent more time in the Bais Medrash than you have.
ReplyDeleteYou excel at throwing out smoke and mirrors without ever actually answering debate points. I don't even know if you do it on purpose; I think that you are just incapable of answering these points because you know a lot of marei mekomos but are not a lamdan. None of what you said is relevant at all to the discussion.
What remains at the end of all this is that you arrogantly think that you are right about what you did and refuse to even consult with a posek. Not a single posek would agree with what you did, and as I said before, even Rav Moshe ZTL in his teshuva did not mention Carlebach by name, and he never shmutzed him like you did.
I know that you are well intentioned, and I admit that that you have done a great deal of good on this website, but here you have made a big mistake. For your own sake, I beg you put aside your gaavah and do teshuva for the terrible sin that you have committed and go to Carlebach's kever with a minyan and beg him for mechila. At least go ask Rav Moshe Shternbuch about what you have done. Until then, I refuse to discuss this issue with you further.
I'm guessing that they know about his lapses בין אדם למקום but not the lapses בין אדם לחברו.
ReplyDeleteI thought there are 2 carlebach shuls in Lakewood, 1 run by a modern orthodox doctor and another a breslov style minyan. Do you mean 1 of them or a different 1?
What does RE stand for? Are you talking about a talmid of RAK who had a fall-out with R Shneur?
because BY girls are very careful about lashon harah as are the teachers and rabbis. She had no awareness that he typically hugged women. In a society that values silence over talking - people are unaware of reality.
ReplyDeleteIn a society where it is prohibited to right an accurate biography - it is simply assume that someone who has a reputation as a tzadik - would NEVER EVER DO ANYTHING WRONG AND THAT WHATEVER DEEDS HE DOES THAT SEEM WRONG - HE MUST BE JUDGED FAVORABLY AND THEREFORE ONE NEEDS TO IGNORE THE EVIDENCE OF WHAT ONES SENSES
Habitually seducing, molesting and violating underage girls and non-consenting women without ever acknowledging his crimes or showing remorse is in your mind called "slipping?" You really need to do some reading. This is a recognized profile of a sexual predator and much of his "chessed" was performed in the service of his sexual pursuits, to get his next fix. He's not the first, he won't be the last.
ReplyDeleteThe eye doctor. Very popular in town. He's very very busy.
ReplyDeleteRE meant real estate. The popular profession in lakew., for those earning decent money.
I am making making things up. I have to imagine. I wasn't there when the subject under discussion did his alleged molesting. And I am basing my understanding of the case of seduction on my meager knowledge of Torah.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, it seems to me, focusing on the case of seduction alone, that the man receives what can be called a minor condemnation. He is not put to death, as he would be in, say, the case of seducing an engaged girl. He doesn't bring a Korban, as with the Shifcha Charufa. He actually gets an opportunity to marry the girl.
If I may be given an opportunity to hit the "reset" here, I'd like to add the following. A popular singer/entertainer is popular precisely because his performance emotionally enthralls and, ensnares girls/women, mesmerizing them. His known and stated goal is to get the girls to like him. And do whatever he asks of them. If he says "hum along", they hum along dutifully, etc. and if he singles out one girl for attention, she is in a dream, "in love" even if she never heard the term "love" in her life and has no idea that she is entangled in a complex male-female matrix.
It seems to me that concerts, like total unquestioning of Gadolim, is an issue that the community has to reconsider.
I'm not big on the concert scene so this may be common, IDK, but I'd agree that this sounds like a huge red flag. Even if nothing further were to occur it's disturbing just as it is. I'd point this out to my kids and have a family discussion about it.
ReplyDeleteDid you read the whole article? That was decades ago and at that time, nobody knew what he did... and whoever knew it, hid it.
ReplyDeleteThe victim, who now is a grandmother but at the time of the attack was a 15yo Beit Yaakov student, had absolutely no idea of anything.
And many other chazzanin, in the alte heim old country and the treifeneh medina USA
ReplyDeleteYossele hachaviv chaviv, chas vesholom. Ein li alav klum. Tzadik gomur hoyo. I would never bundle him with any of the others. I only was trying to bring out, that you can learn omanut such as voice develepment and opera etc. from an eino ben brit. Do you think the leviyim in the Midbar beshiram uvzimram did not bring along with them lyrics mizimrat ha'aretz? Serach bas Osher also picked up mishchitas chutz. Tocho ochal uklliposo zorek, if and when necessary, veze hakol.
ReplyDeleteWhat about experiments on ba'aley chayim going on as we speak, yaldei Teiman R'L', Rabbits for womens farding and eye makeup, prisoners. This is only for Poskei hador to determine. Indeed, there has been a discussion about the results of the nazi experimentations during the war. Do you use makeup from Esty Lauder or others?
ReplyDeleteVe'ein hatzor shove benezek hamelech. See megilat Esther. Yotzo srochoi behefsedo
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of make-up and beauty product brands that do not experiment on animals, you can check on PETA's website. It's easy to find them in north american malls.
ReplyDeleteFor your information, it has been many years since I decided to shop ethically not only for beauty products, but for clothing as well. I do not support the idea of making my life easier on the suffering of others.
What do you think about accepting alimony from husbands that must make an exit because they can't handle it?
ReplyDeleteWhen Moshiach comes, Hashem will serve Livyasan fish and Shor haBor meat, and the Sukah walls from Livyasan leather, David Hamelech will sing with his violin having strings from animal sinew. Let's hope they will have a veggie section for special order.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, no leather products, e.g. belts, shoes, gloves, leather skirts -Jackets etc. no meat, fish, sushi, eggs or bakery or pastry products that contain them. Same goes for the bnei bayit. Must be one tough of a lady to keep such an ethical politically correct diet.
Even decades ago EVERYONE knew that he hugged women. Rav Moshe's teshuva was written decades ago. Maybe the fact that he tried to take advantage of girls was kept a secret, but even the innocent Beit Yaakov girls knew that he hugged women and a frum Beit Yaakov girl would not have been in his immediate proximity.
ReplyDeleteand therefore what? Why didn't Rav Moshe's teshuva address the hugging instead of the complaint that he sang before mixed audicences? Even those who witnessed him hugging were told that he was just expressing his love of his fellow Jew. (as I was told by his assistant rabbi).
ReplyDeleteThus a Beis Yaakov girl witnesses his public hugs would assume that it was not different that an certain rabbi dancing with the kallah on his shoulder or shaking hands. His abuse was not widely known or talked about - especially amongst his devoted followers.
Bottom line he was a pervert who molested girls and women.
I think the right place to start would be to point out what Reb Moshe said. Apparently, despite the lyrics being taken from the Tanach, or the themes from other aspects of the Torah, that there is no Kedusha to the music.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Igros Moshe is part of the curriculum in any Bais Yaakov high school?
ReplyDeleteNo. They would have known about it independently as he hugged women all over the place. So if a woman would have come within his daled amos, she would have expected to be hugged. Therefore, a good bais yaakov girl would not have let herself within his daled amos. Is it clear now?
ReplyDeletehow would they have know about it independently? It was reported in the Yated or Jewish Press?
ReplyDeleteHow did EVERYONE know it if there was no internet, and even today, with internet, there are people who still don't know? Your statement does not make sense. Maybe most people knew it, but not every single jew.
ReplyDeleteIf BY girls of this generation don't know much (some don't know anything) about abusers identity, I can't not imagine how would this girl know it decades ago.
You're trying to blame the victim.
Yeah, let's hope.
ReplyDeleteThis "frum" bais yaakov girl was knowledgeable enough about him to make her way to his concerts. She was not satisfied with hearing him over the record player. She then attended the concert where he hugged other girls and women in front of her. (And I know people who went to his concerts, and this is what he did.) Then she somehow allowed herself to be in his proximity. So how "frum" of a bais yaakov girl was she, really?
ReplyDeleteWhat I think is irrelevant, because your fight is not with me, but with the secular justice system. I don't know how the secular justice system operates in Israel (I have the impression you live in Israel).
ReplyDeleteI explained that already. I gather you don't bother reading my comments
ReplyDeleteI really don't know where you come off judging the religious level someone who you never met.
ReplyDeleteYour explanation is baloney. There is no way that she could not have known, just as you yourself witnessed it when you saw him. There is no way that she should not have understood to be wary of him given that his outer appearance was much closer to that of a hippie than an admor, and also given the type of crowds that followed him wherever he went.
ReplyDeletenope!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to assume that you were born after the year 1990, as you cannot comprehend how everyone can know something without the internet. But anyone who knew of him did know. He had left BMG many years back and spent much time on college campuses, and it was well-known in the frum community that he did hug women. The other things were definitely less well-known, but it was known that he hugged women. It may have been that people attributed this to his overwhelming ahavas yisroel, but any girl would have known to expect a hug if she came over to him. How many different ways do you want me to say it? And yes, I am trying to cast aspersion on the purity of the bais yaakov girl who made this report.
ReplyDeleteThe woman who wrote the letter, saying she was 15 at the time of the attack kept it as a secret for 53 years.
ReplyDeleteWe all know that this teshuva was written after he had already committed who knows how many attacks.
If today there are people who still don't know he was a sexual molester, imagine 50 years ago...
Reply to my question. Don't ask a question to get out of mine
ReplyDeleteYou are confusing being obnoxious with being correct. As I have presented many times there is clearly halachic justification for what I post. An anonymous commentor who claims to be a talmid chachom - but doesn't present any intelligent arguments - does not carry much weight around here.
ReplyDeleteAll your objections boil down to the fact that you don't see a to'eles in what I publish. That indicates that you are ignorant of both the halacha and facts. Having gone to Rav Sternbuch for a number of years and presenting him with copies of my posts - which he read. And then he told me that he relies on my judgment that I will know when to ask for daas Torah.
It is tough if you don't like his judgment - go complain to him.
Again, if you actually would read my posts, you would see that I am not claiming that people knew that he was a sexual molester. I said that everyone knew that he hugged women. And that a frum Bais Yaakov girl would know to keep a distance from him due to that fact.
ReplyDeleteas I said it is not necessarily true. Everyone knows that men don't sit next to women are the bus but if you saw a gadol sitting next to a woman on the bus you might assume that it is permissible. A beis yaakov girl going to a concert to see the great tzadik S Carlebach could easily rationalize that since no one is protesting - that to be hugged by Carelbach is o.k. Which in fact is what his assistant rabbi told me when I protested.
ReplyDeleteThat in fact is one of the reasons that a number of big rabbis were able to seduce women. They simple said that is was ok for them as is stated in the gemora.
Your apparent ignorance of that reality is problematic as is your ignorance of other things.
The title is a misnomer. A molester, by definition, cannot be a tzaddik.
ReplyDeleteThere are many old tunes for Ein Kitzvah.
ReplyDeletePlease see my recent article: "Why Did Lilith Portray A “Shadowy Side” of Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach? - Why did the feminist magazine Lilith portray a demonic picture of Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach four years after his death and how does this impact Cancel Culture today?. It contains new discoveries about this issue. It is available on my FB site or pm me directly.
ReplyDeleteI published two academic biographies about Carlebach - the one in English is 503 pages and was published by Urim and the one in Hebrew is 415 pages and was published by Yediot. Both are available on the Internet via Amazon or directly from the publishers.
ReplyDeleteCan you give a brief synopsis regarding these allegations?
ReplyDeleteI saw him also doing the same, with girls, in the 90s. I didn't have the authority or chutzpah to say anything to him though.
ReplyDelete