Monday, January 4, 2010

Rav Eliashiv: Don't pay for wedding with kidney


YNET

A halachic query directed at Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv illustrated the dire situation of ultra-Orthodox parents in a financial bind faced with meeting their children's wedding costs.

A yeshiva student from Jerusalem who is about to marry his daughter asked the distinguished Lithuanian rabbi whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment for the young couple, and was naturally denied. [...]

51 comments :

  1. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000526103&fid=1384

    Haredi housing crisis may presage wider trend

    How do haredim pay for the apartments that they buy for their large numbers of children? And how does their housing plight threaten the market?

    Dror Marmor • Globes

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  2. maybe this doesn't "illustrate[d] the dire situation of ultra-Orthodox parents "
    but rather, it highlights the diseased system of shiduchim in that community

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  3. If the choson really had to ask whether or not he was allowed to sell his kidney, it is clear he is in no way ready for marriage or children.

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  4. Blessed MediocrityJanuary 4, 2010 at 7:10 PM

    Don't be too harsh on the question asker. Most parents will do anything to successfully marry off their children.

    I have the curse of being middle class and have marriage age daughters. Today's 'frum' young men expect their Kallah to bring money with them. They all say they'll 'toil in Torah' and that the young couple will "find a way" to make ends meet. It's a crock. "Find a way" means ME.

    So, now my daughters are getting older, and the choices are that they can either marry non-religious guys who work, or I can commit crimes to provide money for them to marry frum guys.

    I'd sooner sell one of my own kidneys (rather than risk prison) if I thought I could buy my daughter married life with it.

    As Njs said, we have a diseased system of shiddichim. The really religious guys are all indoctrinated into believing that they don't need to provide for their wife, and they spend their days learning about Mitzvos rather than performing them. It's disgusting, and because it's disgusting, the nonreligious guys are afraid of considering a religious girl because they think that means they will be expected to join the sick frum society.

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  5. it is the rabbonim and roshei yeshivos who should sell their kidney's,they are responsible for this horrible catasrophic situation,
    it is they who brainwashed the last couple of generations of young jews,that the torah does not want them to work and earn a living,but to sit and learn,and now we have a situation in Israel that a very large percentage of the chareidi populations is on welfare and in dire poverty.
    we need now a NACHSHON BEN AMINODOV
    to stand up to these roshei yeshivos,and pound on the table and scream AD KAN we cannot continue this way,what have you done to us? you have crippled generations and generations of jews

    CHAIM

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  6. As I read the story, a yeshiva student in Jerusalem is old enough to have a marriageable daughter but does not have the funds to pay for an 'appropriate' chasanah. Why is this person still in yeshivah? Why doesn't Rav Elishav's answer include a suggestion that he gain employable skills and find a job?

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  7. It was decades ago that R' Schneur Kotler called in a yungerman that was in the yeshiva for too long without really being productive.

    The rosh yeshiva suggested that he knew of a mashgiach position. The yungerman was excitedly pleased and asked which yeshiva. R' Schneur explained it was in hashgochos, at which point the yungerman got terribly upset.

    I think that yungerman still might be there hocking around.

    You cannot blame the roshei yeshiva for all the loafers when many of them prefer to do nothing with their lives.

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  8. >You cannot blame the roshei yeshiva for all the loafers when many of them prefer to do nothing with their lives.

    Wrong. The fact that the yungerman's hashkofas are Krum, that hashgocha, or ANY occupation, is beneath them, speaks to the perveyors of that hashkofah, namely, the roshei Hayeshiva. (With a Hey Hayeduah, as is the new way they prefer to be addressed.)

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  9. @Blessed Mediocrity

    You wrote:

    So, now my daughters are getting older, and the choices are that they can either marry non-religious guys who work, or I can commit crimes to provide money for them to marry frum guys.

    I'm sorry but are you sure there are no religious guys who work and would be happy to provide for a wife and family who will appreciate the fact they have a roof over their heads.

    Shame on you for taking the opportunity away from your daughters to have a happy life.

    Folks like you are killing yiddishkeit.

    Feh.

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  10. @Blessed Mediocrity

    You wrote:

    So, now my daughters are getting older, and the choices are that they can either marry non-religious guys who work, or I can commit crimes to provide money for them to marry frum guys.

    I'm sorry but are you sure there are no religious guys who work and would be happy to provide for a wife and family who will appreciate the fact they have a roof over their heads.

    Shame on you for taking the opportunity away from your daughters to have a happy life.

    Folks like you are killing yiddishkeit.

    Feh.

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  11. Sounds to me that Baal Habos is misrepresenting the roshei yeshiva, or at the very least R' Shneur, who have nothing to do with the delusions of the yungerman with the false pride.

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  12. Blessed Mediocrity, you said

    "Don't be too harsh on the question asker. Most parents will do anything to successfully marry off their children."

    Ask yourself what that really means, to "successfully marry off" a child.

    If the word 'midos' doesn't come to mind first, you are on the wrong track.

    If a potential chasson is looking to be supported by his in laws or future wife, he is no bargain.

    If a potential chosson believes his value as a human being is elevated only if he is kollel, he is no bargain.

    The potential chosson who is willing to do whatever it takes to marry your daughter, because he believes she is a true bas yiroel and sees her as the best mother for his children possible, is the chosson you want- even if he chas vesholom goes to college or actually works for a living.

    The question I have for you is as follows: Does your daughter understand that?

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  13. Actually your and YNET heading is misleading, the guy asked r’ Elyashiv whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment (not a wedding) for the young couple,

    I wonder if the guy asked whether he could sell a kidney in order to have his son in law learn in college full time the answer would be different.


    We had few months ago someone asks r’ Elyashiv if they can wear Crocs on Yom Kippur, Authentic Crocs are luxury in Israel and some of the models can go up to 280 NIS (or at least it used to).

    Now we have people who wants to sell their kidneys to purchase an apartment

    So maybe fake Crocs and renting an apartment are the solution…

    I actually have an halachatic question, is it mutar to have a fake Louis Vuitton bag, isn’t gneivas haddaas?, you make people believe that you have the real thing..

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  14. Blessed MediocrityJanuary 4, 2010 at 10:53 PM

    to both Growing up and James Dean,

    Thank you for your thoughts. My daughters definitely understand the points you make. These fine young men seem to be in short supply, and I don't mean to imply that they are not there at all.

    Sometimes it's just frustrating and seems that way. It also doesn't help when the Shadcanim ALL ask what size the girls are and then rule them out if they are not super skinny. My daughters fortunately aren't letting a bit of desperation guide them to a bad decision. Still, the generality is true.

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  15. Blessed Mediocrity...

    Time for new shadchonim!

    My daughter is not quite of marriageable. Nevertheless, she understands that if a shadchan views her or her mother and father as cows whose sole purpose is to provide milk for her bashert, she isn't interested.

    To view another human being as a means to a desired end/lifestyle is very, very unhealthy.

    Naturally, I want the very best for my child. Like all fathers even the thought of the inevitable difficulties the shidduch process is painful. Of course, I don’t want her to suffer or be discouraged, even when it is best she does. Still, I resolve myself to the necessary truth. I wish her as little or as much in the way of trial as she needs so that she might find the zivug that will help fulfill her potential. I dread and rejoice at the very thought of that.

    I for one have no use for the bochur who wants me to admire in his erlichkeit even as he wants to know my daughters dress size.

    I am quite sure my daughter's bashert will desire her for her midos and character and notwithstanding her dress size.

    The young man who makes dress size a priority (equal to that of his 'torah') will live a very unhappy life.

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  16. You cannot take two generations of people, tell them not to work but still expect them to leave with a decent standard of living in some of the most expensive cities in the Middle East.
    The sooner secular Israel stops paying for this absurd culture of entitlement the better.

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  17. Something is wrong in this story, Israelis are known for brokering and buying kidneys not selling them. The prices they buy it in third world countries are $3000-$10000 not enough for any apartment.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/world/organ-trade-global-black-market-tracking-sale-kidney-path-poverty-hope.html?pagewanted=all


    The recent arrest of NJ public officials and Orthodox rabbis netted at least one Brooklyn arrest of Levy-Izhak Rosenbaum who was indicted for purchasing kidney for $10,000 and then selling it for $160,000


    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/07/i_am_what_you_call_a_matchmake.html

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  18. @Blessed Mediocrity

    It is primarily the Litvishe are demanding full apartments and I think that is the cruelest form of extortion and people like yourself, and you are not alone, are enabling them. Perhaps folks who give in are nichshal in Lifnei Iver.

    Perhaps what you need to do is get a grip on what is important in life. For example, Abaye had a job, so did R' Yehuda Hanasi. If that's too old fashioned for you, Rashi had a job as did the Rambam. Ah, Rishonim, who cares. OK the Chofetz Chaim had a job.

    Of course you would accept any of them for your son-in-law because they would all be considered damaged good, right?

    Perhaps you need to reconsider your priorities and find a young gentleman that is dedicated to something besides money.

    I have seen this movie again and again.

    The BEST BOY in "fill in the blank" yeshiva get's the girl with the bucks and goes on to be nothing more than a bench kvetcher. Sadly, this is the outcome for many of them because they have no responsibilities in life and have no idea what commitment to a wife means.

    I lived for over a decade in a kollel town and I've seen it all. I heard from many of these former starry eyed Bais Yakov girls how they would throw the lazy bum out but now she has 5 or 6 kids and has no idea what she would do.

    Is this REALLY what you want for your daughters? You can't find any better? Have you checked out a Hesder boy? These are the most dedicated people I know. Not only do they sacrifice for Torah but for Avodah as well. I WISH my daughter comes home with one. And I say this with my black hat and Bekeshe.

    I can't explain what nerve you hit inside of me but now I know why I stopped giving money to Hachnosos Kallah in Eretz Yisroel.

    I repeat: FEH!!

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  19. @Blessed Mediocrity

    It is primarily the Litvishe are demanding full apartments and I think that is the cruelest form of extortion and people like yourself, and you are not alone, are enabling them. Perhaps folks who give in are nichshal in Lifnei Iver.

    Perhaps what you need to do is get a grip on what is important in life. For example, Abaye had a job, so did R' Yehuda Hanasi. If that's too old fashioned for you, Rashi had a job as did the Rambam. Ah, Rishonim, who cares. OK the Chofetz Chaim had a job.

    Of course you would accept any of them for your son-in-law because they would all be considered damaged good, right?

    Perhaps you need to reconsider your priorities and find a young gentleman that is dedicated to something besides money.

    I have seen this movie again and again.

    The BEST BOY in "fill in the blank" yeshiva get's the girl with the bucks and goes on to be nothing more than a bench kvetcher. Sadly, this is the outcome for many of them because they have no responsibilities in life and have no idea what commitment to a wife means.

    I lived for over a decade in a kollel town and I've seen it all. I heard from many of these former starry eyed Bais Yakov girls how they would throw the lazy bum out but now she has 5 or 6 kids and has no idea what she would do.

    Is this REALLY what you want for your daughters? You can't find any better? Have you checked out a Hesder boy? These are the most dedicated people I know. Not only do they sacrifice for Torah but for Avodah as well. I WISH my daughter comes home with one. And I say this with my black hat and Bekeshe.

    I can't explain what nerve you hit inside of me but now I know why I stopped giving money to Hachnosos Kallah in Eretz Yisroel.

    I repeat: FEH!!

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  20. @The Leader

    Secular Israel is only pulling down a part of the fare. The rest is up to us low life working stiffs in Chutz L'Aretz who not good enough for Blessed Medicority's daughters.

    We've run out of money to fund this. The party is over, we can't even fund our own Moisdos anymore.

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  21. Georgie said...
    "Actually your and YNET heading is misleading, the guy asked r’ Elyashiv whether he could sell a kidney in order to purchase an apartment (not a wedding) for the young couple,"

    There is nothing misleading about the title. In the case discussed an apartment is probably the price of the shidduch that is demanded by the choson or his parents. In otherwords the cost of marrying of one's daughters.

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  22. Wow, what an appropriate post for an excerpt from Rambam's Mishneh Torah - Laws of Learning Torah:


    ט [י] כָּל הַמֵּשִׂים עַל לִבּוֹ שֶׁיַּעְסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וְיִתְפַּרְנַס מִן הַצְּדָקָה--הֲרֵי זֶה חִלַּל אֶת הַשֵּׁם, וּבִזָּה אֶת הַתּוֹרָה, וְכִבָּה מְאוֹר הַדָּת, וְגָרַם רָעָה לְעַצְמוֹ, וְנָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא: לְפִי שֶׁאָסוּר לֵהָנוֹת בְּדִבְרֵי תּוֹרָה, בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה.

    י אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים, כָּל הַנִּהְנֶה מִדִּבְרֵי תּוֹרָה, נָטַל חַיָּיו מִן הָעוֹלָם. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ, לֹא תַעֲשֵׂם עֲטָרָה לְהִתְגַּדַּל בָּהֶם, וְלֹא קֻרְדֹּם לַחְפֹּר בָּהֶם. וְעוֹד צִוּוּ וְאָמְרוּ, אֱהֹב אֶת הַמְּלָאכָה, וּשְׂנֹא אֶת הָרַבָּנוּת. וְכָל תּוֹרָה שְׁאֵין עִמָּהּ מְלָאכָה, סוֹפָהּ בְּטֵלָה; וְסוֹף אָדָם זֶה, שֶׁיְּהֶא מְלַסְטֵס אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת.

    יא מַעֲלָה גְּדוֹלָה הִיא לְמִי שְׁהוּא מִתְפַּרְנֵס מִמַּעֲשֶׂה יָדָיו, וּמִדַּת חֲסִידִים הָרִאשׁוֹנִים הִיא; וּבְזֶה זוֹכֶה לְכָל כָּבוֹד וְטוֹבָה שֶׁבָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה, וְלָעוֹלָם הַבָּא: שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "יְגִיעַ כַּפֶּיךָ, כִּי תֹאכֵל; אַשְׁרֶיךָ, וְטוֹב לָךְ" (תהילים קכח,ב)--"אַשְׁרֶיךָ" בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה, "וְטוֹב לָךְ" לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא שֶׁכֻּלּוֹ טוֹב.

    I-NATCH - I'm not a talmid chacham ( obviously ), just an am haaretz quoting what's written in black and white.

    For those who don't read Hebrew here's a quick ( and not very good ) approximate translation:

    Anyone who puts it on his heart that he will busy himself with learning Torah and will not work [ to support himself ], and will support himself from charity, this person has desecrated G-d's name, and disgraced the Torah, and extinguished the light of knowledge, and caused evil to himself, and killed / removed his life from the world to come: because it is forbidden to derive [ financial or other ] benefit from Torah, in this world.

    The Sages said, anyone who derives [ financial or other ] benefit from Torah, has killed / removed his life from the world. Additionally they commanded and said: you should not use Torah to gain status, [ not sure ]. Additionally they commanded and said: Love Work / Labor, and hate the government. And any Torah that there isn't with it Work / Labor, that Torah is canceled; and the end of this man is that he will [ rob the creation ]

    A person who supports himself from the work of his own hands gains respect, and it is the measure of the first Chasidim ( Chasidim Rishonim ), and with this he gains all the honor and goodness in his world, and in the world to come. "You will work with the palm of your hand, that you should eat, you are praiseworthy, and it is good for you." "Praiseworthy" in this world , "good for you" in the world to come were everything is good.

    Things in [ braces ] I added to clarify my understanding of the intent or because I wasn't sure how to translate.

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  23. I was told by rabonim to leave yeshiva to find a job, so I would have money to get married. I worked for 4 years morning to night, and ended up having every single penny stolen by "frum" people.

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  24. My friends in Israel who are marrying off daughters tell me:

    1. 50k for a boy who is not such a good learner, not from such a good family, has a physical defect, isn't so good looking etc.

    2. up to 150k for a good boy from a good family, who is healthy and good looking.

    The shadchanim have the mantra of "you want your daughter to be happy, don't you?".

    My cousin paid money she did not have; she mortgaged her house.I told my daughter to go on Frumster.

    Robert- Hashem has blessed you with great gifts and it is an insult to our Creator to refer to yourself as an Am Haaretz.

    Due to the influence of Christianity, we are again suffering from Anti Maimonidaen demons(anti science, anti logic, anti reason, anti work, anti halachic, anti Geonic).

    The time we are living in, historically can be compared to Pre Expulsion Spain.

    We should learn from history. It is sad that the history of Jewish Spain is no longer taught in the Jewish schools. I had to use a 30 year old text to teach my own children the history of Pre Expulsion Spain.

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  25. " marry non-religious guys who work"

    It is your hashkafa that is KRUM. This is really the crux of the problem, work = non religious or non religious = work.

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  26. Due to the influence of Christianity, we are again suffering from Anti Maimonidaen demons(anti science, anti logic, anti reason, anti work, anti halachic, anti Geonic).

    Why blame everything on the Xtians. Many of these problems are home grown and were a problem in Judaism dealt with by ChaZaL in the Gemarra.

    I get it, you love muslims and don't like Xtians, but the truth is that these problems are not arising on account of their influence. In fact more Chareidim work in Xtian countries such as the US, then do in the Jewish one.

    One could just as easily say let us look at Second Temple Judaism, another topic that isn't taught... the same problems we see now, were around before Xtianity.

    In fact the Midrash Raba states that the reason Am Yisrael initially refused to go into Eretz Yisrael and fight was because they knew that when they did, they would no longer recieve the Mahn, and would have work, and thus could not devote all their time to simply learning.

    This is a problem that has been with Judaism from the beginning.

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  27. Jersey Girl is ignorant of the Chazal prophesizing that in these times, Yishmoel takes over as the biggest enemy from the X-tians.

    One of the roshei yeshiva in Telz Cleveland wrote a sefer that elaborates on this.

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  28. Jersey Girl,

    Thanks for the compliment, but I've been around enough real talmidim chachamim to know that my 80% understanding of the p'shat of Rambam's words isn't anything to write home about. Maybe relative to the frightening ignorance of a significant portion of the frum community it's something - but in absolute terms I barely qualify as a literate Jew. But I'm definitely trying and B"H someday I'll get there. :-)

    By the way, what's the name of that book on Andalusia? Sounds interesting.

    Archie Bunker,

    Someone also told me about a sefer he read which said that the Arab Muslims will eventually do Tshuva, just like Yishmael did.

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  29. Robert,

    Maybe when moshiach comes which is too little too late.

    And according to the Chozeh, Pereh Adam means they are not even human.

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  30. R’ Elyashiv is somehow friendly with Tom Kaplan (as it seems from the chizzuk letter) so why r’ Elyashiv would not send the guy to Kaplan so he can help him with the wedding expenses ?

    He shouls tell Tom Kaplan I think it is a better mitzvah than to pay for Tropper escapades

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  31. Yishmaelites are not Arabs.

    There are no identifiable Ishmaelites today.

    According to the Jewish tradition, the Ishmaelites are no longer mentioned after the time of King David, having assimilated into other peoples. Some are shown in the Book of Judges as having become part of the Midianites. Others are mentioned living amongst the Israelites (Gerei Toshav).


    Mekubal, you repeatedly criticize my beliefs as an observant Jew who follows the teachings of our Rabbis as you have above when you state:

    "I get it, you love muslims and don't like Xtians"

    Xtians are idolators and Muslims are Gerei Toshav according to our Rabbis. (I am aware that there have been Ashkenazic Rabbis who classified Xtians as monotheists while living in Christian countries. However, it is well known that Xtians worship G-d in three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that Xtians believe in and pray to a man-god manifestation in Jesus. For this reason Sephardic Rabbis have always ruled that Xtianity is idolatry. Futhermore, a Jew is permitted to enter or even pray in a Mosque but we are forbidden by all Rabbis and traditions to enter a Church).

    Please quote to me your HALACHIC sources, chapter and verse for feeling, believing or behaving any differently than I do.

    It is a mitzvah to love a Ger Toshav, a Gentile who does not worship idols. A Jew should always choose a Gentile who does not worship idols (Ger Toshav) over a Gentile who is an idolator.

    If you wish to criticize or correct my behavior on a halachic rather than on a political basis, please be so kind as to share with me your source, chapter and verse.

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  32. Robert -

    One of the series of textbooks I have been using to teach the history of the Expulsion is called "Exile 1492-The Expulsion of the Jews from Spain" which is designed to be a full curriculum for 4-6 grades. It is from Ben Zvi Institute. I do not know where you might be able to buy it, but it is an excellent series, IMHO.

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  33. What many parents of daughters in the shiddach parsha have found, unfortunately is that boys who decide to go to work get turned off to observance.

    It is considered by too many in the Orthodox "establishment" that working is a sin.

    You do not have to tell me about the Rabbis in the Talmud or the Rambam, I could not agree with you more.

    The concept of a Rabbi paid by the community, along with Haredi Harvard (kollel) is relatively new (mid 19th century) and in response to Haskala. Historically Rabbis worked a trade or profession to support themselves and their families.

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  34. FYI, the klousingberger rebbi ZL has 2 long replys proving arabs islam is avodah zarah.

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  35. "Jersey Girl is ignorant of the Chazal prophesizing that in these times, Yishmoel takes over as the biggest enemy from the X-tians."

    She needs to consult prophecy to know that that has already happened? She didn't notice the buses blowing up?

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  36. "Yishmaelites are not Arabs.

    There are no identifiable Ishmaelites today. "

    But the Arabs (actually, all Muslims do) claim that they are Ishmaelites. You are not taking into account self-identification which is as real as anything. Even behaviorally one can assume the identity of a particular group and by doing so they must be treated as such a group. That is why according to some opinions the Nazis were Amalek, and any nation that makes war against the Jewish people takes on the identity of Amalek.

    Cal vHomer, a group that self-identifies as Ishmaelites, behaves as them, and blows up pizza shops, can be safely considered to be Ishmaelites.

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  37. "Muslims are Gerei Toshav according to our Rabbis."

    A person is not considered a "ger toshav" when he hates Jews and wants to use jihad to take the Jewish land of Israel into his own possession, is he? Because this is what the Muslims religion of today teaches, how can you say that the Muslims in Eretz Yisrael are 'gerei toshav' ? A group with a (pseudo)national claim on the homeland that we possess is somehow a ger toshav? They are at war with us. No delusions can change that.

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  38. "It is a mitzvah to love a Ger Toshav, a Gentile who does not worship idols."

    It is not a mitzvah to love a gentile who hates Jews.

    " A Jew should always choose a Gentile who does not worship idols (Ger Toshav) over a Gentile who is an idolator. "

    Even when the non-idolator is currently at war with your people? That hardly sounds logical.

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  39. Jersey Girl needs to get her facts straight.

    The Ibn Ezra said that Arabs are idolators because many of them secretly worship the stone in Mecca. Is he not a Sephardic rabbi?

    You can make the point from one standpoint that goyim become assimilated among other goyim but the Achronim were clear that Germany is still Amalek.

    And Jersey Girl's very point works against her. Since The Yishamelim were the ones doing the conquering, you can say that whoever they absorbed become Yishmaelim themselves.

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  40. Ok, I guess I was a little to Charife in my last comment for it be published so here is the scaled down nice version.

    I have listed these sources for you at least three times previously. But here we go again.


    That Muslims are idolators
    Yaakov Abuchatzeira, Pituchei Chotam, Parshat Vayhislah

    Ben Ish Hai Da'at U'Tevuna, Peticha Shlishi and Perek 1.

    Ben Ish Hai, Sefer Ben Ish Hai, Year two Parshat Pinchas and Parshat Mattot.

    R' Ovadiah Yosef, Halichot Olam, Year Two Parshat Pinchas and Parshat Mattot. He has stated this in numerous other places as well, I just can't remember them.

    Arab Muslims themselves claim to be descendants of Yishmael, and the Koran claims that Islam was the true religion of Abraham as passed to Yishmael.

    please be so kind as to share with me your source, chapter and verse.
    For someone who is so antagonistic to Xtian influence on Judaism, I am surprised that you use this phraseology, as its origins are entirely Xtian. In fact Ibin Ezra fought against the use of Chapter Verse system for that very reason.

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  41. Luis Fernando LopezJanuary 6, 2010 at 9:03 PM

    I think Jersey Girl should leave the Christian state of New Jersey and move to the Moslem Governorate (province) of Allepo.

    If Ashkenazi Jews are returning to Europe, Jersey girl can start similar movement of Jews to Iraq and Syria so she does not have to live under oppressive Christendom.

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  42. Earlier today I strongly agreed with Jersey Girl re a different topic. But on this one, she seems to me to be very far off-base.

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  43. "FYI, the klousingberger rebbi ZL has 2 long replys proving arabs islam is avodah zarah."


    Chapter and verse please.

    I knew the Klausenberger Rebbe as I once worked for one of his Chassidim. The Klausenberger Rabbe ztl hated the Zionists and blamed them for the Holocaust.

    So please do not say things in the name of a tzaddik (and the Klausenberger Rebbe was one of the biggest tzaddikim this world has ever known. It was hard to be in the room with him without being moved to tears because of the great Ruach HaKodesh around the Rebbe), without a specific reference.

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  44. Archie Bunker- It was once believed by our Sages that Muslims prayed to the Kaaba during the Hajj (yearly pilgrimage to Mecca).

    This was found to be untrue during the Medieval Era (pre Rambam) and since then our Rabbis have not considered Islam to be Avodah Zara.

    There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If 1/100th of one percent of the world's Muslims hated Jews as much as the people of Germany and Poland did, there would certainly be no Jews left in the world.

    It is as absurd to say that all Muslims (1.5 billion people) or all Arabs (375 million people) hate Jews as it is to say that all Christians hate Jews because there are dedicated organizations such as Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Skinheads, Order of the Iron Cross, All-American Protectorate, American Nazi Party, Assembly of Christian Soldiers, Church of Jesus Christ-Christian Nation, Imperial Klans of America and dozens of other Neo Nazi Anti Semitic Christian organizations whose members call for the destruction of the Jewish people.

    You seem to overlook the dozens of shul and cemetery desecrations that have been done by White Supremists (Christians) in recent years.

    Thousands of Jews (and many hundreds of thousands of Muslims) have died at the hands of Mahdi terrorists, organizations such as Al Qaida, Hezballah, Hamas, etc that were founded, trained and funded by Israel and the United States, but these tragic numbers are a fraction of those Jews who have died at the hands of Christians for the past two thousand years.

    Jews have seeking refuge from Christian persecution have fled to Islamic lands for the past 2000 years. I am sure that we will again.

    The leaders of the Arab countries are also sure and that is why they are spending millions of dollars in a down economy restoring the synagogues in Cairo, Alexandria, Beirut and Damascus for example. Additionally new synagogues have been built recently in Kuwait City, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bahrain for example and Jews have been granted refugee status in these countries.

    Also Morocco currently has more than 60 synagogues in Casablanca alone which are under government support. Additional synagogues are being restored in other Moroccan cities in anticipation of the Jewish people's return to Morocco.

    The Government of Morocco is actively seeking the return of the Jewish population.

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  45. Jersey Girl did make sure that the Moroccan citizenship she has from her father still grants her and her family Right of Return (under the new law that grants Moroccan citizenship to married women, it does). Her brothers have done the same.

    Jersey Girl's husband and father in law have Right of Return to Egypt and Syria which they are actively exploring.

    Jersey Girl's father in law, who is a genius, IMHO, BTW says that if he were a younger man, he would go to UAE now.

    The situation for Jews in the United States, South and Latin America and Europe has been deteriorating rapidly and many Jewish families we know have recently bought property in Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Many other families we know of have recently taken "look and see trips" to Egypt, Morocco and Turkey.

    Joseph, I am not asking you to "agree" or "disagree" with anything I post. This is a forum in which ideas are shared, not a popularity contest. No one is "selling" anything.

    My family left Spain in 1481 and went to Morocco. The original letter written by my direct ancestor to his married children telling them it was time to leave Spain is in the Archives at Bevis Marks in London. There is no doubt that many of the same conditions that existed at that time and place are present again today. Throughout history, anytime that the Christians have persecuted Muslims, they have then turned upon the Jews.

    It is definitely something to study and to be aware of.

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  46. Mekubal- Ben Ish Hai (as does every other Rabbi I know of) continually rules that it is permissible for a Jew to enter a Mosque or even to pray there. Yet, the same is not true of a Church. A Jew is forbidden to enter a Church.

    If the Ben Ish Hai held that Muslims were idolators then he would surely not permit us to enter their places of worship.

    Jews are the "People of the Book". The Christians took the term "Chapter and verse" from us.

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  47. jersey g.....you are a katnay amuna...u knew him...i saw him , pray by the rebbi slita from time to time but more ilearn his seforim . Look at DIVRE YATSIV 1:89,90-94. also lesson humash-rashi haya sarah at great lenth where he proves yishmael never did tshuva.

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  48. Jews are the "People of the Book". The Christians took the term "Chapter and verse" from us.

    You need to freshen up on your Jewish history. We traditionally went by Parasha number. As in the breaks in the text of a sefer. This is the way the Midrash Rabba is still ordered. Most of the Rishonim opposed using Chapter and verse headings because they were a Xtian invention. They did not take it form us, we took it from them.

    The Ben Ish Hai very clearly does not allow a Jew to enter a Mosque. Aside from the sources I provided above, he states that in numerous places. Use his Hagaddah sometime, he repeatedly calls mosques mokomei avoda zarah, and speaks of heroic Jews refusing to enter them, even on pain of death.

    I saw elsewhere that you quoted R' Ariel Bar Tzadok... I found that quite a surprise since you claim to come from Florida.

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  49. "There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If 1/100th of one percent of the world's Muslims hated Jews as much as the people of Germany and Poland did, there would certainly be no Jews left in the world. "

    Illogical argument. Jews in Germany and much of Europe were defenseless. If Muslims had the ability to carry this out without deadly resistance from numerous quarters (including Israel and perhaps western countries who might react to a holocaust in an arab country, might not), they would. The balance of power has shifted and the Jews have an army now... An army that punishes. That is a definite counterbalance. But make no mistake that if the Arabs had their wish there would be no Jews. That is why their religion says (this is a paraphrase) that in the end of Days the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the tree will call out Oh Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him! (except the Gharqad tree, which Muslims believe is the "Jewish tree" and will protect the hiding Jew from slaughter by Muslims).....

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  50. "Al Qaida, Hezballah, Hamas, etc that were founded, trained and funded by Israel "

    Islamic terror organizations were founded by Israel and not Arabs themselves? Wow. Please remove the tinfoil hat and come back down to reality.

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  51. Saudi Arabi recently released a study that "only" 15% of the world's muslims were jihadist extremists. That "small" 15% is 225000000(two-hundred twenty-five million) people. Roughly the population of the united states.

    Personally I consider that a substantial threat.

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