Saturday, May 15, 2021

Adultery: Kosher style? Defense of Kotzker Rebbe

Alshich (Tehilim 51:7): Behold in sin I was formed – From the time it decreed that I should be born by means of the sin of Lot’s daughter who had an incestual relation with her father which is disgusting and terrible sin – but that is how I was formed. As it says in Bereishis Rabbah (50:16), “I found Dovid My servant” where was he found? In Sedom. And in sin my mother conceived me - that is referring to Ruth who is referred to as mother as it says in Bava Basra (91b)... she was the mother of the Davidic monarchy. From the time when she got the idea of lying at the feet of Boaz which was the sin of chilul Hashem as we see in Ruth Rabbah (6:1) that Boaz prayed that no one would know that she came to the threshing floor. And You G‑d did not consider it bad since You knew the motivation was good....

Devarim (05:17): You shall not kill. Nor shall you commit adultery. Nor shall you steal. Nor shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

Bamidbar Rabbah (09:43): Our Rabbis said: When a woman is secluded with her husband and is engaged in intercourse with him, and at the same time her heart is with another man whom she has seen on the road, there is no adultery greater than this.\

 Chazon Ish (Igros Kodesh #01): It is important to note that our Sages are not saying to love one's wife with the natural love that man is attracted to a woman but rather to love her with the love that friends have for each other - as someone he knows and has a covenant with him and that they are partners in many things and each one helps and receives help from the other. In addition the love he feels for her should also come from gratitude. He needs to have the clear image in his mind that if he had not gotten a wife and would have remained alone and isolated - how much suffering and pain he would have from this. But now that he has a wife his life is in place and functioning. The significance of gratitude is immeasurably important. This type of love is what our Sages say a man is obligated to have towards his wife. And again this love does not come from the lust a man has for a woman at all but from one of the good attributes which he is obligated to have. He needs to have this type of love and feeling towards her when he strives to cause her rejoicing at the time of intercourse and well as before and afterwards. Such a relationship is not disgusting – chas v'shalom – but rather it is a mitzva. In fact he should conduct himself in this manner even if he were not obligated by the Torah and surely now that the Torah does obligated it - as we mentioned before.

 Kotzker Rebbe (Emes v’Emuna p635):The biblical prohibition on adultery included relations with one’s own wife if they involved sexual desire.

 Rambam (Yesodei HaTorah 5:9): A man who lusts after a particular woman and is dying because of this lust and the doctors say that there is no other cure except for him to have intercourse with her – it is better to let him die even if she is unmarried. Even to speak with her when she is behind a fence is not something we tell him to do. He should die rather than speak to her from behind a fence. Jewish girls should not be freely available because this will lead to a licentious attitude to sex.

Rashi (Tehilim 51:7): Behold I was formed in transgression – So how could I not sin. The basis of my being formed was my parents sexual intercourse and through intercourse it is possible to be involved in a number of transgression. And alternative explanation, my principle formation was from male and female – both of them are full of sins. However there are other interpretive readings to this verse and they do not conform to the subject matter of the verse.

Rashi (Mishlei 9:17): Stolen water is sweet – The pleasure from intercourse with an unmarried woman is not the same as adultery with a married woman. 

 Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 25:10): A man should not have intercourse with his wife and be thinking about another woman – even if both are his wives

 Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 157:2) A person who has strong desire to commit adultery it is better to have intercourse with his own wife and imagine it is the other woman – nevertheless he needs to repent for his desire to sin (Taz)

 Taz (Y.D. 157:10) Rema states that a person who has strong desire to commit adultery it is better to have intercourse with his own wife and imagine it is the other woman – this is obvious nevertheless he needs to repent this act since he had intention to sin as we see in Kiddushin 81) that Rav Chiya repented this for the rest of his life. 

 Tehilim (051:07):. Behold, I was shaped in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

 Vayikra (20:10): And the man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

 Vayikra Rabbah (14:05) In sin I was formed (Tehilim 51:7)… Dovid said before G-d, did my father actually have intent to have me or was he was he focused on his own pleasure? Obviously it was for pleasure because when they finished, my father and mother both turned their faces away from each other.

Yalkut HaMakiri Tehilim (118 28): Tehilim (51:7) Behold I was born in sin. Yishai was separated from his wife for three years. After three years he had a pretty maid servant that he lusted for. He said to the slave, ”My daughter; I prepared myself for you tonight to free you.” The slave went to his wife, “ “Save yourself and the soul of your husband from Hell. ”She replied, “What is happening? ”The slave told her everything. She replied, “My daughter what can I do since he hasn’t touched me for three years?. Go prepare yourself and so will I” And she did. That evening, the slave got up and extinguished the candle. and closed the door. The wife entered and the slave left. The wife was with her husband the whole night and became pregnant with Dovid. Because of his strong passion for the slave Dovid was born very ruddy compared to his brothers. His brothers wanted to kill him seeing that he was red {a sign of adultery]. However their father told them to leave him alone so instead of killing him they treated him instead as a slave and shepherd.

 Zohar (01:8a) Domeh ascended before the Creator, and said: “Master of the world, 'Master of the universe, in the Torah it says of "the man that commits adultery with another man's wife...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death"' (Vayikra 20:10). Furthermore, it is written, "Moreover, you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, to defile yourself with her" (Vayikra 18:20). So what is to become of David, who has profaned his organ (of the holy covenant by committing a sexually immoral act)? G-d said to him, "David is righteous! And the holy covenant remains intact, because it is known to Me that Bathsheba was assigned to him since the day the world was created

38 comments :

  1. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 5:14 PM

    Kotzker Rebbe (Emes v’Emuna p635):The biblical prohibition on adultery included relations with one’s own wife if they involved sexual desire.
    -----------::::

    What is he going on about? Permitted is adultery?
    So eating kosher cholent is also treif if you enjoy it ?
    Was he on drugs, or just a sabbatean?

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  2. See Shulchan Aruch and Taz
    Not everything which isn't punished is desirable

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  3. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 5:32 PM

    Is he (kotzker ) talking about desire for permitted, or for eshes is?

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  4. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 5:55 PM

    "Not everything which isn't punished is desirable"


    depends on what we are talking about - if his intent was that the sexual desire for his own wife is likened to adultery, that is simply reform nonsense - which means it is hardly likely that any Rabbi could make this up. Then again, i have heard similar nonsense form lesser rabbis.. Since when is a permitted matter equivalent to the most severe sin there is?



    SA and Taz are talking about desire for another man's wife - so there is a quite different matter.

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  5. The Kotker Rebbe's statement is why I don't take Chasidus seriously. I mean, he is now condemning pretty much every married Jewish male out there and accusing them adultery. Thanks a lot.

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  6. Add this Midrash to the ever lengthening list of "Rabbinical Jesus" scholarship. Clearly is the source for the Christian limmud re "adultery of the heart".

    You can see why they went so very far off the derekh: sources learned outside of shiur and without a personal poseiq & baal eitzeh are most confusing.

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  7. Here's good summary interpretation:

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  8. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 7:01 PM

    The steipler gaon also disagrees with them.

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  9. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 7:02 PM

    That is why we have a sense of smell, as well as taste 😂

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  10. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 7:08 PM

    The idea of getting married is to do adultery. Doublethink.

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  11. Yes but it's more insidious than that. It's one thing to say "A man should purify his thoughts to the level where he has intercourse with his wife just for the sake of pru v'rvu and onah." That's a level of holiness that can be aspired to.
    But this is the opposite - the high level of holiness is the base standard and anything less is arayos. Doesn't work for most people.

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  12. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM

    Reminds me of the Chatam sofer who rebutted the chabad claim that men cannot shave min ha Torah , due to lo yilbash. Chatam sofer said you cannot criminalise good Jews for only a chumra.

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  13. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 13, 2021 at 3:31 AM

    Berland, and the frankists have the mirror image of the kotzker view:
    Even full adultery with a forbidden woman, if done for "spiritual" reasons (and not sexual)
    Is actually a mitzvah and not a sin.
    Of course, this is a prime example of "we can do it, but you can't".

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  14. I know you allude to a prior comment, but now that you make this comment, I think the smell/taste distinction -- at a pretty drashy level -- fits nicely hirhurei/maasei aveirah distinction.

    There's an amazing R"nu Bachya cited in the Artscroll Machzor making sense of the Gemara that for hirhurim we're punished more than for maasim. He explains that if our hirhurim come to naught, then they are naught, while if they come to maaseh, then the punishment is much the greater than for the maaseh alone, stripped of any such "preparations". How about that...? Is a "double-jeopardy" model that works alternately to our detriment (if we're lax) & our advantage (if we're vigilant)....

    What I find amazing is that without exception realities are always different than prior expectations. And yet, still, after a lifetime of lessons in that, we find ourselves prone to fantasy... and so we shall until the Leviasan be shecht'd at the End of Days!

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  15. A woman who commits adultery must be divorced by her husband. They are forbidden from each other, from having any further intimacy, after her adultery.

    As such, an adulterous wife would seemingly be obligated to inform her unaware husband that she is immediately and permanently forbidden to him.

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  16. Following in the footsteps of the Zohar cited in the post.

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  17. Rambam I'm moreh nevuchim also tries to explain- why the thought is worse than the act-
    The body is gashmius, so materialistic acts are natural for it. The mind is the seat of the intellect and Kavod Hashem, so it is much more degrading for thoughts to be so debased.

    Although I'm not convinced of his explanation!

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  18. How common is adultery in the Orthodox community?

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  19. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 13, 2021 at 2:09 PM

    Not to take it literally.
    Zohar should not overrule halacha.

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  20. I don't know of any reliable sources to that question.
    It definitely exists both intentionally and inadvertent as can be seen from the many tshuvos on the subject. But it is also recorded in the gemora

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  21. What kind of "inadvertent" adultery are you referring to?

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  22. If a Dayan mistakenly tells a women she can remarry without first obtaining a get, If she remarries this is inadvertent adultery

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  23. I agree that 13th century forgeries should not override halacha. But those who think it contains the deepest teaching of Torah would disagree.

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  24. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 13, 2021 at 9:06 PM

    It is not easy to measure -
    If you took a survey, they would all deny it.
    Even divorce can't tell you much - is it written in the get?
    And what if people just keep quiet if they do?

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  25. See Keter Rosh (end, various statements and stories, 15) who quotes Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin, in the name of his teacher the Gr'a, that the Zohar is not at odds, anywhere, with the Talmud.

    If it does appear to be at odds, it’s either because they don’t correctly understand the words of the Talmud, or they don’t correctly understand the meaning of the Zohar.
    https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31446&st=&pgnum=23

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  26. I know that some authorities did not bring Zohar for halacha, eg the Rema, and Chatam Sofer. Do you know what the Gra's position was on that?

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  27. The Halacha is clear - in an unresolved halachic dispute we follow Kabbala - Rav Moshe says that is referring to Zohar

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  28. In his notes to Shulchan Aruch, the Ga'a occasionally brings support from the words of the Zohar, to an established Halacha or Jewish customary practice.

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  29. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 14, 2021 at 1:11 AM

    I'm pretty sure that Rav Ovadiah Yosef did not agree.
    However, the Arukh HaShulchan is known to bring a lot of Kabbalah, although I don't know if this is to settle disputes or just as asmakhta.

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  30. Would that include situations of Gett Me'usa, where a woman remarries after a Beit Din authorizes a Gett that halachicly is Me'usa?

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  31. That is if one takes for granted the authenticity of those sefarim.

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  32. In conclusion, the main Ashkenazi approach is not to allow kabbalah to supersede the halacha. Indeed, R. Moshe Feinstein writes (OC 4:3) that the Arizal is to be viewed as just one of the many revered poskim, not the supreme one. This is also the opinion of even the Sephardic posek R. Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer (OC 9:105) and other places.
    https://dafaleph.com/home/2016/7/18/halacha-and-kabbalah-part-4-when-kabbalah-supersedes-the-traditional-halacha

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  33. Where does Rambam say that about smell? Not in the Moreh....

    Anyway, wherever that's said, sounds like he'd have had the famous Plato in mind from the end of the Republic about pure/impure pleasure: when we smell a rose, there's no prior frustration we could point to that the smelling gave us respite from, unlike so many other sensory indulgences. This phenomenon becomes for Plato the basis of the distinction between the pleasure of perceiving some true presence ("pure" pleasure) and the pleasure of gratifying personal desire ("impure"pleasure), the ratio of the two serving as a "purity" metric, and the cause of that purity being the pleasure's relative rootedness in the soul/body.

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  34. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 14, 2021 at 5:02 PM

    It's in the Moreh, when he lashes out against physical pleasures, I think in section 3. It is like a compensation mechanism.

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  35. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 14, 2021 at 5:05 PM

    I'm wondering what kotzker rebbe would say about that.

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  36. Well, he quotes Plato a few times in the Moreh, most especially the Timaeus, which work was beloved in the Middle Ages. In fact, I think Plato mentions smell there as well, though not in that context. Don't quite remember....

    In the sections I think you have in mind, Rambam echoes most forcefully Aristotle's radical distinction of touch and sight, and denigrates touch in strong terms, yes. But I don't recall him saying anything about smell there.... Did a Google search on the Friedländer English translation online and am coming up short. Maybe I'm missing it, or maybe you're conflating it with something in the medical corpus that Fred Rosner put out in English. Anyway, if you should come across it, I'd be interested in the source, whether in the Moreh or elsewhere, thanks....

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  37. "Kotzker Rebbe (Emes v’Emuna p635):The biblical
    prohibition on adultery included relations with one’s own wife if they involved
    sexual desire."


    The Kotzker rebbe burnt all his writings, so it is not clear hwo accurate this quote is. It is also not clear if he meant sexual desire per se, or about another man's wife.
    That is a double doubt about the veracity of the claim.
    However, even if you were to stick to the claim as being absolute, it is also absolute sheker. It is irrelevant who said it.


    The Chazon Ish is saying do not approach your wife as though she was chas v'shalom a zonah,and it is an animalistic relationship. He is not negating sexual desire -
    he is talking about love. In any case, the CI did not have children, and according to the Rambam, such a person cannot be head of the Sanhedrin (the Lubavitcher rebbe also would fail this test).


    Rambam whow as also a doctor, said is it healthy and sometimes there is a medical need to need for a man t release sperm - .
    In any case, the statement, as it is presented here, is absurd, and simply not viable.

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  38. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 16, 2021 at 3:15 AM

    Can't find it, but will try again maybe over yomtov.

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