And here we come to the crux of the confrontation of ideas. We understand very well the great benefits to mankind that are the result of the research and technological creativity of the scientific community. We have no quarrel with true science proven from observable facts. Our quarrel is with this definition of science, which in considering the unobservable origin of the universe.
There is a subtle, but not so subtle, shift from saying that science, by its self-imposed convention, can only deal with empirical evidence, with that which can be observed and measured, to saying (which in effect is being said) that anything not measurable is beneath consideration'. With this, the most logical explanation of the universe is ruled out while the most improbable and fanciful theories can be accepted as science as long as they do not smack of the «supernatural."
https://18forty.org/podcast/rabbi-meir-triebitz/
ReplyDeleteRav Meir triebitz talking about Torah and science, and also Talmud
Reminds me of something Stephen Hawking once said. He was asked about the origin of the Big Bang. He theorized about a previous universe contracting and then exploding again or perhaps there's a multiverse and the Big Bang came out of it. Absolutely no proof for any of this theories but he was certain it wasn't God!
ReplyDeleteSilly argument. A scientist's job is to attempt to find natural explanations for phenomena. Saying G-d did it is always an option but it's not science.
ReplyDeleteIntellectually, you can't even begin discussing evolution, without dealing with a more fundamental problem, of "what" evolved, and how that "what" came into being.
ReplyDeleteBy the same token, until there is scientific evidence of any form of matter/energy coming into being without an outside creator, then pondering the theory of evolution is rather futile.
Since "nothing" produces nothing, we can't avoid pondering how "something" came into being from "nothing".
Once you theoretically agree that there is a Supreme Creator, it would be perfectly plausible that He could also direct organisms to evolve into other forms.
While there’s no evidence for the Creator having built it into science, nevertheless, proving that an evolutionary process occurred wouldn't conclusively rule out that the Creator didn't design/direct that process.
First, scientists are discussing how nothing turned into something. Secondly, even if they have no conclusive answers for that at present, it doesn't mean they can't speculate about other related matters.
ReplyDeleteThere happens to be tons of evidence for evolution. So far, statistics makes it seem unlikely it was by chance, but that's only so far. The scientific enterprise doesn't need to close down until it has all the answers.
Even if evidence existed that this in fact occurred, that the Big Bang came from a "previous universe" that contracted and then expanded into this one, or that a "multiverse" that spawned this one, this hardly solves the problem, since we have no comparable model of “something” coming from “nothing”, and they have no way of explaining how this multiverse "previous universe" or "multiverse" came into existence.
ReplyDelete"that contracted and then expanded"
ReplyDeleteyou are already talking about a Tzimtzum of some kind!
Correct: nothing can't produce something. The question isn't "Did everything evolve from nothing?" The question is: Where did the source of everything, the something that produced the Big Bang, come from?
ReplyDeleteThe discussion in the Orthodox community should be: given all scientific evidence, do we continue to ignore it and work with now untenable understandings or do we say "Wow, so this is how God did it"?
It's actually quite simple and answered in the first chapter of Chovov HaLevavos. What is the definition of God? First Cause. So even if there was a previous universe and one before that, what was the first cause of the very first one?
ReplyDeleteevolution does not chas v'shalom deny the Creator.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we see a form of rapid evolution going on with viruses - the covid virus (although engineered in Chinese biowarfare labs) has gone through several stages of Evolution, alpha, beta etc, now we are at Omicron and beyond.
Biologists say that this evolution occurs also with larger organisms, like animals, but over hunfreds of millions of years.
Scientists are very happy to discuss the theory of evolution and the diversity of life on the planet, because it doesn't force them to confront the origins of the planet itself, and the origins of the matter that evolved.
ReplyDeleteThey're irrationally hoping that the god of “Science” will come up with an irrational fact, whose parallel has never yet been found in the universe; of “something” coming from “nothing”.
"Nothing" does not exist, and therefore, can’t be a causal agent of "anything". This goes against logic, and all that we know in science and our experience (the law of "cause and effect").
The most reasonable conclusion is that the universe is the result of a cause that is greater than it.
Remember the glory days of the Jewish blogsphere? It was hard to be a centrist back then. If you didn't read Genesis 1 literally, you were a kofer. If you tried to say that God directed creation and evolution then the actual kofrim called you a hypocrite.
ReplyDeleteit probably coincided with the reign of Rav Elyashiv. Each era of total mind domination by a "Gadol hador" has its intellectual drawbacks. Rav Shach's era was anti Sloloveitchik , anti YU, and of course Chabad messianism. The current era is no longer fixated on science or age of the World, but speaknig loshion hara , even against rashaim/rapists, is a no-no.
ReplyDeleteI was not referring to any esoteric Kabbalistic concept.
ReplyDeleteI was paraphrasing the words of "scientists" who were referring to contraction and expansion of physical matter.
Variants of viruses don't necessarily point to evolution.
ReplyDeleteThese nature of these variants might already be encoded in the DNA of the original virus, and only present themselves at a later time.
don't be a ksil
ReplyDeleteActually virus variants are exactly proof of evolution.
ReplyDeleteeven if you argue it is all pre-programmed, then the same would or could apply to apes, and their brains increasing in size and power.
ReplyDeleteWhat you might be thinking of is a difference process - natural selection - when certain moths were black, and others were white, the black ones survived better than the white ones, since they were less visible to predators.
there is a concept of a genetic mutation, which can be caused by random events or radiation, usually, this is a disadvantage, eg chas v'shalom a genetic disease. But in some organisms, it can serve as an advantage, eg a virus develops immunity. It can actually help humans as well, some have a gene which gives them immunity to viruses, including Covid, HIV. it is thought that in europe, those who had these mutations survived the plagues in the middle ages, and they are now more immune to modern diseases. I don't know if/when this mutation took place.
How? They allow it to happen through natural selection or survival of fittest
ReplyDeleteAs the virus multiplies, random mutations will develop. Those which can better resist antibodies will become more prevalent and spread. That is evolution . It happens to the flu every year.
ReplyDeleteArguing that variants of viruses are proof of evolution, is like arguing that my computer screen is evolving, because there always different pictures on it (screen saver).
ReplyDeleteFacetious.
ReplyDeleteYour computer screen doesn't evolve, it just does what it's programmed to do. The picture changing is predictable every time because the programming is always obeyed.
A virus evolves by scrambling its DNA, creating new genes. Respiratory viruses largely evolve this way - they are first very virulent and then, because they want to maximize their ability to spread and not wipe out useful hosts, they lose potency and pick up infectivity. All the changes we seen in the latest strains of CoVID are evidence of this. Those strains that evolved the wrong way became dead ends and disappear. Omicron and its children are successful because they infect better and kill less.
Once you theoretically agree that there is a Supreme Creator, it would be perfectly plausible that He could also direct organisms to evolve into other forms.
ReplyDeleteWhile there’s no evidence for the Creator having built it into science, nevertheless, proving that an evolutionary process occurred wouldn't conclusively rule out that the Creator didn't design/direct that process.
Nobody here disputes that HaKadosh Baruch Hu Created the world and continues in Guiding it.
ReplyDeleteScience looks for causes from A-B , for example, without being able to understand how everything got here or even why A goes to B in the particular way it does.
Is Hashem's plan for the virus to cause mayhem, and evolve in a certain way, or has He left a certain amount of teva or nature to take its own course? We don't know, and it depends on which rebbe you follow.
The discussion is about scientists, who dispute that Hashem created the world, and hence deny that He continues in guiding it. By denying these facts, their “research”, is myopic, in that it ignores the possibility of input by Hashem.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I know about computer viruses, there exists the concept of “code mutation”, by which malicious code can evolve, making it more resistant to anti-virus software. However I don’t think that computer code naturally “evolves”. It was just designed to appear that way, for example by using polymorphic code; which alters the payload, while preserving the same functionality of the malware.
If this can be true with computer viruses, then I believe that the same can be with biological viruses. The virus might have a built in code; that causes it to appear as if it is evolving.
And don't fall into the "the same name so the same properties" trap. Computer viruses have nothing in common with biological viruses when it comes to transmission and evolution.
ReplyDeleteAs for scientists, a good scientist doesn't have an answer to the question "Is there a God?" All he or she can do is say "The following thing happens and here's why" with being able to ascribe an ultimate cause to it. Someone who believes in Scientism as a religion, well they can make conclusions about the Divine but that's not science anymore.
depends what you define as "code" and what its scope and nature are. A philospher once made the same point, that the pen sitting on his desk has a program - and the program simply tells the pen "don't move".
ReplyDeleteThat the virus genes have the capability to mutate, change and evolve, is part of the overall system. there is no known or observed "code" for random events, such as mutations in genes, or radioactive decay of elements. To make a hypothesis without evidence is not a scientific method.
I did NOT fall into the "the same name so the same properties" trap, and I know that computer viruses have anything in common with biological viruses.
ReplyDeleteI merely used it as an illustration, of how something appears to be evolving by itself, yet the evolution was already built in, just that you didn’t know about it.
My point is; that if such evolution can happen with man-made code, the “kal v’chomer” Hashem can do that with DNA coding, to have a built in code that makes things to appear to be evolving on their own.
Each virus has a unique DNA code, which scientists have yet to fully understand how these things work. Yet despite their lack of understanding, they unflinchingly insist on describing certain events as “random”.
ReplyDeleteI don’t buy into this. I don’t believe that any events in nature are “random”. Material effects without adequate causes do not exist. Insisting otherwise would contradict the natural law of "cause and effect", which states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect.
Therefore, if something appears to be “random”, it’s not really “random”. It’s just that man hasn’t yet figured out the cause.
so a lowly ape has encoded into it how to become human?
ReplyDeleteIs that acceptable to you?
The Torah (Bereishis 2:7) states, that God fashioned man from the dust of the earth. It doesn’t say that he took a monkey, and encoded it to become human.
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud (Sanhedrin 109a) mentions a case of “reverse evolution”, where humans were downgraded and changed into apes. In connection with the builders of the tower of Babel, Rabbi Jeremiah ben Eleazar related, that the contingent that proposed to wage war against Heaven, were punished by being transformed into apes, ghosts, demons and night-spirits.
nice story, I hadn't come across that. So you see Chazal saw the similarity between apes and men, and the genetic continuity...
ReplyDeleteI was responding to the following erroneous claim
ReplyDeleteGarnel Ironheart IsraelReader • a day ago
Actually virus variants are exactly proof of evolution.
thank you
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK8439/
ReplyDeleteread this to get an idea of the science involved in virus mutations
Which genetic continuity are you referring to?
ReplyDeleteGoing from 46 chromosomes (humans) to 48 chromosomes (chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan)?
Evolution constitutes change, but not all changes constitute evolution. For example, a table represents a significant change from the pieces of wood from which it was fashioned. Nonetheless, one would not claim that the table spontaneously evolved from the wood. A change occurred, but spontaneous evolution did not.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.science.org/content/article/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
ReplyDeletehttps://slate.com/technology/2012/07/blogging-the-human-genome-why-do-we-have-two-fewer-chromosomes-than-our-closest-primate-relatives.html
ReplyDeletethis explains chromosomes
if the same type of future scientists look at fossils of motor cars, and how they evolved over years into newer models, with new features, better efficiency and perfomance, they could make a case for evolution of the cars. But this was done by designers, and engineers.
ReplyDeleteHashem is the designer and engineer of the world, and He is behind all the mutations that might appear.
ReplyDeleteScientists theorize that some of the 48 chromosomes (chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan) fused into 46, which became the human. However according to the Talmud (Sanhedrin 109a) that mentions a case of “reverse evolution”; where humans were downgraded and changed into apes, then we can theorize that Hashem split some of the 46 human chromosomes, which led to them having a total 48 chromosomes, and they therefore lost their human characteristics, and became apes.
ReplyDelete