Tuesday, May 10, 2022

Tamar Epstein's Heter: Newsflash - Rav Nota Greenblatt just acknowledged that he will retract his heter if the reports he based himself on are refuted!

After weeks of turmoil and worldwide outrage - a new development. Rav Nota Greenblatt has acknowledged that he relied totally on the contents of the reports he got when he issued the heter. Therefore if these reports are withdrawn or refuted the heter has no validity and he will retract it.

He has been saying this all along both in his letters and telephone conversations. I had originally thought that he was being inconsistent regarding his taking responsibility for the psak. But he is saying that his role in this is no different than if someone said his doctor said a condition was pikuach nefesh for Shabbos or that someone can't fast on Yom Kippur. He has always stated that he has no knowledge of Aharon or Tamar or any facts of the case. He is reacting totally to the fact that an expert in mental health has said that he certifies that Aharon is incapable of being a husband because of mental health issues. Thus he simply took the conclusion of the doctor and stated that it was consistent with Rav Moshe Feinstein's view of kiddushei ta'us.

Therefore instead of relying on the Daas Torah of Rav Shmuel as I had mistakenly thought he is doing something worse. He is relying absolutely on the doctor's conclusions - not the doctor's diagnosis or knowledge of the facts. Rav Shmuel and R Shalom's role was simply to indicate that the doctor was reliable and what the doctor said. Thus whether the doctor was biased because he heard only Tamar's version was not relevant to Rav Greenblatt. The doctor said it and his believability came partially because of Rav Shmuel's endorsement but mainly because of the assumption that a professional would not state something that could readily be shown to be false because it would ruin his career.
His problem then is that he did not know about  the very subjective nature of psychological diagnoses and that if he had taken the trouble of finding out who Aharon was and what Tamar had said in beis din and the courts - he would not have automatically believed that the data supported the conclusion that the therapist wrote - as Rav Feldman clearly shows in his letter.

In sum, this information is not new but is a new understanding of what Rav Greenblatt has been saying all along. Thus instead of trying to convince Rav Greenblatt that the doctors conclusions were not supported by the data or that the doctor could not have known this since he never spoke with Aharon - there is a simpler solution. Either get the doctor to retract his report or get another doctor who refutes it.


  1. I will believe it when I see it, sadly the rabbis first priority is to protect RSKs kavod, and only then to protect kavod shamaim
    ואני אומר, יאבדו אלפים כמותו ואל יאבד קוצו של יוד מתורתינו

  2. Mazal Tov!

    Next step - making sure אישא this NEVER EVER happens again.

    Not just הפקעת קידושין .. but the whole nine yards" of Using bad advice - whether from friends, family and / or therapists using disproven psychology and / or psychology that contradicts Torah thinking to:

    1) DESTROY LIVES, which is hundreds of times more common than הפקעת קידושין is. In this case, it wasn't just Aharon's life which was destroyed but also Tamar's, who was mislead to misinterpret Aharon's character and actions, which lead to חמור שבחמורות.

    2) Focus on the seemingly "small עבירות that ALWAYS precede the big ones.
    Chazal in their infinite wisdom knew this fact and it is up to us to rectify.

    We need to change attitudes in society, therapy and unfortunately in
    some Rabbinic circles, which downplay the widespread prevalence of מצות
    עשה and מצות לא תעשה like: לא תשנא את אחיך, והאבת לרעך כמוך, הוכיח תוכיח.

    The necessary rectification would require actions similar to the "broken window" policy of policing prevalent in some communities, though hopefully minus the need for punitive punishments. Very detailed EDUCATION of well-meaning סתם יודען would be necessary, because we have often grown up on simplistic attitudes towards being דן לכף זכות, תוכחה, אמונת צדיקים, which end up being the exact opposite of their original intent.

    Major מחלוקות always starts small, as noted in סנהדרין ז.:

    אמר רב הונא האי תיגרא דמיא לצינורא דבידקא דמיא כיון דרווח רווח אביי קשישא אמר דמי לגודא דגמלא כיון דקם קם פרש"י: לצינורא. דבידקא. כשהנהר גדל פעמים שהוא יוצא לשדות שעל אגפיו כעין ניגרים וצינורות קטנים ואם אינו סותמו מיד הולך ומרחיב ושוב אינו יכול לסותמו והיינו דקאמר קרא פוטר מים ראשית מדון כלומר ראשית מדון ומריבה דומה לפוטר מים פוטר פותח כמו פטר רחם (שמות יג): לגודא דגמלא. דפין של גשר בתחילה כשדורסין עליהם מנענעות וסוף מתחזקות ונקבעות במקומן והכי נמי כשאדם מרבה בקטטה מתחזקת ובאה ולא מקרא נפקא:

    Regarding Chazal's "broken windows" attiude:

    ספרי שופטים: כי יהי' איש שונא לרעהו וארב לו וקם עליו: מכאן אמרו עבר אדם על מצוה אחת קלה סופו לעבור על מצוה חמורה עבר על ואהבת לרעך כמוך סופו לעבור על לא תשנא ועל לא תקום ועל לא תטור וסופו לעבור על וחי אחיך עמך עד שבא לידי שפיכת דמים.
    And as we know from ב"מ נח:, המלבין פני חברו ברבים, כאילו שופך דמים
    This is especially so when פגם משפחה is involved.

    רש"י דברים יט-יא: וכייהיה איש שנא לרעהו. ע"י שנאתו הוא בא לידי וארב לו, מכאן אמרו, עבר אדם עלמצוה קלה סופו לעבור על מצוה חמורה, לפי שעבר על לא תשנא, סופו לבא לידי שפיכותדמים, לכך נאמר וכי יהיה איש שונא לרעהו וגו', שהיה לו לכתוב וכי יקום איש וארב

    לרעהו והכהו נפש

    How it all starts with unjustified "feelings":

    ס' החינוך מצוה רלח - שלא לשנא שנאת הלב אחד מישראל, שנאמר (ויקרא יט יז) לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך. (קדושים ד ח) ולשון ספרא, לא אמרתי אלא שנאה שהיא בלב ... שנאת הלב היא קשה מכל השנאה הגלויה, ועליה תזהיר התורה ביותר ... שרש המצוה ידוע. כי שנאת הלב גורמת רעות גדולות בין בני אדם להיות תמיד חרב איש באחיו ואיש ברעהו, והיא סבה לכל המסירות הנעשות בין אנשים, והיא המדה הפחותה והנמאסת תכלית המאוס בעיני כל בעל שכל.

  3. Just the 1st step in the right direction ... the "about face" is a big deal!

  4. So basically Tamar is willing to follow Halacha rabbi Greenblatt is willing to retract .the hard nut to crack this is arrogant Eminence Sholem since he will have to issue a letter that he Conned, fooled and lied and has very little to gain since there is no way he can come out clean his reputation is totally ruined in any case

  5. This makes it sound like if the reports were true, the hetter would be valid!!!!!! Every rov I've spoken with has stated unequivocally that EVEN IF TRUE there is no basis for a hafka'ah.

    This is a disaster.

  6. Politically IncorrectDecember 11, 2015 at 6:30 PM

    Agreed. It must be the ohr of Chanukah and the achdus of Klal Yisroel in this matter. Let us say Tehillim nonstop until this happens!

  7. Politically IncorrectDecember 11, 2015 at 6:38 PM

    The stench is 'round the world. ..

    As far as RNG is concerned, let's hope his tarrying is because he needs to save face.

    As far as Tamar is concerned? Guess she is trying to 'chap arein'

  8. Politically IncorrectDecember 11, 2015 at 6:47 PM

    If the heter is retracted, the chuppah v'kiddushin by default (m'maila) fall apart.

    And the legal issue is really such a nafka mina? To get technical, it anyways shouldn't, because all states (besides NY, to my knowledge, ah....,Ontario and Quebec too) recognize that the state's involvement in a get violates the First Amendment.

  9. If the heter is void, the marriage is automatically void as well. The county clerk has absolutely nothing to do with him or this. Quit trying to move the goalposts.

  10. No your conclusion is wrong. See my expanded post. Reb Nota was relying totally on the doctors conclusions. He was not saying that a true diagnosis of OCD or paranoia would invalidate a husband. He is saying that when a doctor reaches a conclusion - for whatever reasons - that conclusion is accepted as fact and the halacha is applied to that fact. The psak falls away if it can be shown that the doctors assertions are wrong or he retracts his conclusions.

  11. No - he can claim he was also totally relying on the doctor's conclusion and that perhaps another party convinced the doctor to issues his conclusions.

  12. Rav Greenblatt apparenlty has been consistent in his views from the beginning. This is not an about face

  13. ...the whole "nine yards" of using bad advice - whether from friends, family and / or therapists practicing disproven "bad" psychology and / or psychology that contradicts Torah thinking to DESTROY LIVES...

    Very very important point, perhaps you can elaborate on this, &/or the mod. RDS would allow you to write a guest post.

  14. "very subjective nature of psychological diagnoses"
    does that mean that therapists are usually subjective, thus rendering therapy [for shalom bayit and the like-] useless -at best ,& destroying lives at worst?!

  15. The first paragraph is confusing. I will explain. The point of this excellent post is that RNG “…simply took the conclusion of the doctor…”, and then decided if it fit into Reb Moshe’s psak. RNG's understanding of the diagnosis or if he even read the contents of the report is irrelevant. Thus, the following sentence from the first paragraph is confusing: “Rav Nota Greenblatt has acknowledged that he relied totally on the contents of the reports he got when he issued the heter.” RNG relied on the conclusions, not on the contents of the report.

    Daas Torah’s solution is elegant in its simplicity, finding another doctor to refute the conclusion or have the original doctor retract.

  16. EVEN IF all the doctors/psychologists reports about the husband had been true, if the condition developed AFTER he got married then it all wouldn't permit a mekach taos determination according to Halacha. So on what basis did the heter determine that all his alleged psychological diagnosis was preexisting before the marriage? This would be vital before being able to issue a heter on an eishes ish for a mekach taos.

  17. It is conceivable that the report stated that such conditions are unlikely to have developed recently and probably preceded the marriage. Actually the doctor who wrote the report didn't see the husband at all - so it was conjecture based on what the wife told him.

  18. yes it he relied on the conclusions not on the discussions i.e., the content of the report

  19. Shalom K. was not the first to set the "precedent of corruption of ethics and Halacha and being a total
    embarrassment and disgrace to the rabbinate and world of yeshivos". That "honor" belongs to Pesach Lerner, who committed FORGERY (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dYjWbZclhpg/VPRzfa9DkyI/AAAAAAAAAR0/-o3Ixzbad1A/s1600/ForgeryByYoungIsrael.jpg) and Peretz Steinberg who committed PERJURY (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9VsfC29Zq2U/VRCGxq8idrI/AAAAAAAAASg/D8Quv9PmCAA/s1600/SwinebergPerjury.jpg) in order to hide the excommunication of their Las Vegas colleague.

  20. Al pi halacha how can a mekach taos be declared on a marriage/eishes ish based merely on a likelihood/probability that the alleged condition developed prior to the marriage rather than after the marriage? Probability/likelihood is insufficient. There needs to be proof of that.

  21. If that's the case why do we need the doctor to retract? Even if the diagnosis was perfectly valid the psak would still be no good. I don't get it.

  22. So if it was simply conjecture, then how could a heter be granted for performing an actual marriage on what was essentially a theoretical situation?

  23. There is an "about face", as in the past RNG told a caller that after two "doctors" said AF wasn't בסדר even six other professionals saying the opposite wouldn't change anything and that his psak had a din of מעשה בית דין.

    I heard this first hand from the person who spoke to RNG.

  24. I stand corrected, TY. I should have stated, the rotten neveila is in their own backyard, and smells all the way to Denmark and ROFL veKol hoilom kulo! RNG rather wants to save his behin.. Even Leshitoso, he must tell them to depart immediately, since she became a sofek eishes ish till RNG's report findings, and according to the Botei Dinim a vaday eishes ish even until she gets down to BD.

  25. I agree that it's an important point that deserves elaboration.. לאדם מערכי לב ומה' מענה לשון.

  26. In the specific case of Aharon & Tamar - I'd say better than 50% chance that the therapy did them in.

    Also see:

  27. " the chuppah v'kiddushin by default (m'maila) fall apart."

    Not at all. teitse mize umize. If 10 people are mekadesh her, she needs a Get from each and everyone, I believe mikoach safek kidushin. If one is mekadesh a sister or any of the ervos, only then is the Kidushin not chal. All these BDinim demand a Get from her paramour, albeit the whole fiasco is a fraud through and through as they have mentioned. Even if RNG can prove that he was duped, of which it doesn't seem so, and even if RNG's kidushin bekesef was a mekach taus, she is still mekudeshes b'biah.

  28. This mess gets murkier all of the time. When we think that the "gedolim" and the "great rabbis" have hit bottom, we find out the latest in the saga of inventing the Torah. Will it never end? Amazingly, there are still people out there after all of this who still consider it wrong to attack these "rabbis" and "Gedolim."

  29. Your right! The great thing about lies is that it is so elastic you can basically say almost anything

  30. Who oh who is dragging his feet at this point ???

  31. At the rate he is going with his luck the past few weeks he will get caught out with those lies too and then we'll have to cook up some more to cover

  32. So based on this, were your attacks on the R' Shmuel unfair? Especially since this is what R' Shmuel has written all along (that he was never matir and was relying on R' Nota to pasken)?

  33. no - the process of getting Tamar a heter was powered by the Kaminetskys in a way that is a corruption of the halahchic process as in the posek shopping they did. Rav Shmuel should have known that the doctors reports were wrong and yet he went along with a blind heter and still has not rejected it in spite of the justifiable and expected outrage it has produced. If he allowed himself to be dragged into by his son - he still needs to acknowledge it is a mistake and end this sorry state of affairs.

    No Rav Shmuel deserves all the criticism he has received

  34. Do you have any names of the Poskim to whom they went and who turned them down before they found RNG?

  35. Yes . They told me that they viewed the request as totally unacceptable. They said that it was ridiculous to pasken about someone without hearing his defense against the allegations that he was severely mentally ill or to accept testimony of therapists who had never met the person they evaluated. In other words they were in full agreement with the objections of Rav Feldman and the other rabbis who felt that a posek can not declare it a case of kiddushei ta'os the way Rav Greenblatt did.

  36. Since we NOW know that the diagnosis and conclusions of the Doctor have absolute no validity because he never spoke to the person of interest, why wait for the Doctor to retract? This Doctor can even lose his license for doing such once reported, thereby making it Null and void from the outset. How is it different from a surgeon that his Diagnosis utilizes voodo medicine? Having that, it has already been refuted by in and of itself, HOW / WHY then are you allowed to wait? According to Halacha, they MUST depart immediately! Teikef umiyad! - As already paskened overwhelmingly.

  37. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 3:30 PM

    Not clear - after all the hesberim and biurim, shouldn't RNG know better? I mean, he said that he was only mattir with kiddushay to'us only twice all his life (yeah, curious about the details of the other one), doesn't he know to look in to this case *thoroughly* and even more so, - *every* case? And wasn't he covering up at first, at least with RDoE and Joe Orlow.........why is he entitled to VIP immunity?

  38. RDE,

    I see this comment, and your elongated post, but I still don't understand:

    Isn't it agreed that he performed the second kiddushin? Is there any way to view this positively for RNG...that an apparently huge Posek performed a second marriage for a woman who he knew to be without a get? And he did so without any due diligence, but just relying on others? Really? Someone performing a kiddushin would do so, and still be considered responsible??

  39. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 3:34 PM

    Ah, as I suggested - just like RNG claimed!

  40. Would you mind listing their names?

  41. "Daas Torah’s solution is elegant in its simplicity"

    ...except that במחילת כבודו it doesn't SOLVE anything...

    Let's say the false diagnosis is officially retracted.

    1) Aharon still won't be allowed into any shul in Silver Spring.

    2) A substantial percentage of the Kllal will still stigmatize him as a get witholder, which I believe is totally unjustified, given the specific details of this case.

    3) New cases "in the pipeline" will continue to be added to the caseload of "distressed" women served by ORA, many but not all of whom, like Tamar, might have reached a very different interpretation of their husband's character, had they been fortunate to be guided by more sensitive Rabbonim, therapist, יועצים.

  42. Have any of these purported poskim voiced these objections publicly?

  43. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 4:10 PM

    Again, any list of the poskim they shopped for?

  44. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 4:12 PM

    What clearance would be necessary to post them?

  45. When RSK presented the * PACKAGE DEAL * AS IS for a HETER NISUIN to RNG, it also contained amongst the multiple charges faults of, * Meshuge bimlo muven hamileh *. That is either Meshuge of Toit or Toit Meshuge or both. Whichever the case may be, did it not EVER occur to RNG the Baal haHETER and Baal MESADER of second time around that, how is it possible for a Shoshvin ( the first time around, in our case a big baal simcha of this fiasco) to miss out on such a Gevaldige Meshugaas or two, that has been stamped bechoisomoi shel haRofeh haMumche haGodol choisem betoch choisem to be hidden from the naked eye? The same question applies to the parents of Tamar how it ELUDED them, especially where the father A"H was himself a medical Doctor. Furthermore, ALL the other people RAF came bemaga umasa with, at the engagement,Tnaim/vort, Chassune, Sheva broches, Congressionals and Staffers, Bateui Dinim, Court Judges, vekol haolam kulo never ever noticed such a thing as *Meshugene* disease chas vesholem. Dr. Epstein A"H was a very chosheve person and very close to the Philly R Yeshiva who has a world of connections, and no one knew to say any of these alleged Gevaldovne Meshugassin? RAF had to have hidden these alleged Meshugassin for over seven years from TAMAR until she caught up with it. Any bar-bei-Rav of lechad Yoime would have known better to be able to identify and ask ALL these same valid questions and more - in a blink of an eye, especially one of the greatest baalei baki beTiv -Gittin of the USA that is also a known BAR SAMCHA. How in the world can it be that RNG swallowed it Hook, Line, and Sinker with No Questions Asked??? The only conclusion we must come to, that something is very rotten in the wrapped up * PACKAGE DEAL *, smelling up the whole Planet. In order to cleanse the air we need a heavy duty industrial Scrubber, and remove the neveilo srucho/nevolo beYisrael, so ordered NOW by Poskei HaDor, effective immediatley. Time is of the essence. Ukeoshon beOshon yichle, velo yeoseh chen beYisroel oid!

  46. you don't understand the vulnerability of our rabbis to pressure and punishment if they want to continue being viewed as part of the system.

    They have absolutely no to gain by having their names publicized but realistically a lot to lose.

  47. Does that mean that even if there is a retraction, other rabbis believe that they'll still suffer retribution? Even if RNG acknowledges an error?

  48. It's DIH's comment. Just a few issues with discus.

  49. When the Sifsay Tzaddik of Piltz would be mesader a get, he would tremble and his face would change color

    Hurray for him. His practice does not call into question the validity of gittin made by those who are mesader without the theatrics.

  50. regardless of the persons involved, the sides we take, our ideology or hashkafa, this is a central principle of Torah - Tzedek Tzedek tird'fu .

    Also to not pervert the justice or make false statements about someone in court.

  51. Same question but I've added her name

  52. Sadly, this is common in Rabbinic circles. One relies on the other. If my memory serves me well, there's a שאלה if it's permitted in certain cases of דיני ממונות but surely אסור בדיני נפשות. There's a שו"ת רמ"א סי"ב that להתיר אשה has חומר דיני נפשות which requires דרישה וחקירה and would preclude second hand information. It might be that all הוצאת שם רע has the same חומר.

    The mistake RNG made is that he thought that all he needs is דעת רופא because he thought that it's a straightforward question of medicine. He didn't know (or want to hear) that even בנימוסם such diagnoses requires דרישה וחקירה and is often not done properly.

  53. Sadly, this is common in Rabbinic circles. One relies on the other. What I've witnessed, is that it's a case of trying to avoid the time and money involved in good investigative work. It's called "heuristic thinking" - quick and easy decision making, which relies on the source of info and uses guestimates on the validity..

    If my memory serves me well, there's a שאלה if it's permitted in certain cases of דיני ממונות but surely אסור בדיני נפשות. There's a שו"ת רמ"א סי"ב that להתיר אשה has חומר דיני נפשות which requires דרישה וחקירה and would preclude second hand information. It might be that all הוצאת שם רע has the same חומר.

    The mistake RNG made is that he thought that all he needs is דעת רופא because he thought that it's a straightforward question of medicine. He didn't know (or want to hear) that even בנימוסם such diagnoses requires דרישה וחקירה and is often not done properly.

  54. At what point are there enough desenters, so that they don't have to hide under the cloak of anonymity anymore and can come out in the open?

  55. Ho gufo kashya? If SO, R'Shmuel K refused to matir AS IS, why didn't he pass on those same reasons for RNG and seek out his opinion about his own personal hesitations, Huh? Wasn't there some kind of Shakle vetarye? Something is missing, it just doesn't add up AS IS!
    And on the other hand, R'Sholom passed it on as everything was shown to his Father vehiskim al yado. We need to get all three of them in one room at the same time, and see who said what to whom and when and why. We can't ALL be Meshuga of Toit, can we?

  56. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 11:04 PM

    Hey, that sounds like that expression.."teikef umiyd b'koroiv mammush" :-D

    Still grappling with the notion why RNG is still after so many factors that point otherwise. ....

  57. Politically IncorrectDecember 13, 2015 at 11:10 PM

    Or maybe he dragged his son into the fiasco. I may think that because I understand that he was initially involved. ....

  58. Well Said!

    Note also Reb Moshe Feinstien would fast on a day when (seldomly ) he oversaw a Get

    ( He would also place the divorcing couple together for a private shmuz efsher maybe they will have charotah and make peace.) today that is not done., to costly.

  59. The easiest way to tell if this is true or not, is if the K family is trying (desperately) trying to find a replacement posek to publicly rervalidate the 'heter'.

  60. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 7:57 AM

    Ah, v'kushku ish b'ochiv, v'kishka oyin, you must be a Litvak who happens to be like kishka!

    No, nobody asked them to tremble, nor am I calling in the validity of those who do not tremble. These individuals are called to task ,not for what they did not do, but for what they DID.

  61. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 8:17 AM

    Troubling that in the present situation, dinai nefoshos become dinai momonos

    Unfathomable that he, Bar Samcha ( was that his father's name? ) usually doesn't do research? I thought until now, he was somech on gedolim......

  62. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 8:39 AM

    She needs a get when she was muttar to marry, but when she was mezaneh b'issur? I don't know. Maybe you are sure.......then I 'bow' for you (like Schachter bowed for RSK.......when they should have bowed out)

  63. didn't the marriage therapist say this marriage can be saved?

  64. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 2:26 PM

    Let them 'team up' with the protest letters. ..or better yet, let them all sign one letter, and if really need be, to temper the language (from light to medium).....

  65. Yes. The question concerns the details of how to save it.

  66. these kind of things breed on murkiness, which allows for "Plausible deniability" and leaves most people sticking to whatever they originally thought about the disputants.

    from wikipedia:
    Plausible deniability is the ability for persons (typically senior officials in a formal or informal chain of command) to deny
    knowledge of or responsibility for any damnable actions committed by
    others (usually subordinates in an organizational hierarchy) because of a
    lack of evidence that can confirm their participation, even if they
    were personally involved in or at least willfully ignorant
    of the actions. In the case that illegal or otherwise disreputable and
    unpopular activities become public, high-ranking officials may deny any
    awareness of such act in order to insulate themselves and shift blame
    onto the agents who carried out the acts, confident that their doubters
    will be unable to prove otherwise. The lack of evidence to the contrary
    ostensibly makes the denial plausible, that is, credible, although sometimes it merely makes it unactionable.

  67. Even now with the tumult is there still a concern for retribution by the pro Tamar side

  68. Strange question from someone who is himself anonymous. Not that I care, but clearly you understand those who do not wish to have their names divulged.

  69. These
    Chachomim leheirRA and ORA RAbonim aka *SHARY'A* Dayonim YSV , are in cahoots
    *Koshrei Kshorim* NETWORKING BELA"AZ lirdof es haTsadik veLEIRED LECHAYOV
    Rachmonei leSheizvei. We NOW KNOW that they ARE and WERE all in it together
    exercising their Power in exchange for BIG BUCK$, $HOICHAD BELA"AZ. They have
    ordered a CHIYUV GET in ABSENTIA leodom asher LAHADA"M, served a SERUV for the
    same non-existing husband asher lo hoyo velo nivro, and from there straight into
    ordering MAKOT RETSACH mercilessly ad sheteitsei nafsho R'L, or AD SHEYOMER
    ROITSE ANI, so that either way, she will be FREE. And for what? For the ALMIGHTY
    $HALMOINIM, just because they can! Sixty (60) Thou$and Dollar$ a POP to be
    proportionately distributed in descending order amongst the hungry so called
    FREEDOM PIE FRESSERS. What a shame! Little did they know that they fell into
    PACH YOKUSH LEKISH caught red handed in the cookie jar only to get STUNG. What a
    resign and throw in the towel, disband these Mikve Peepers vekol meshorsov
    horshoim rabonim impersonators, lechol haruchot shebeoilom, effective
    immediately. They are Totally Corrupt and Bankrupt vesaruach mitoicho
    umigabo.They have no business meddling into Jewish affairs of any kind
    whatsoever. This KFIYAS HAGET FIASCO should be eliminated in conjunction with
    the current SHA'ARURYA of ADAM with LAHADA"M. Nothing less is acceptable other


    When these scoundrels stalk and harass chasing
    the victims wherever they turn, ban them from entering the Shul etc., that is to
    insinuate as if THAT is the proof in the pudding that he is recalcitrant. The
    shul is not private property, it is from Tsedaka money contributions for a
    Mikdash me'at since the Churban, open for the public at large to be Mispallel.
    When they gang up to ostracize or discriminate on anyone unjustifiably and
    clearly against the Shulchan Aruch BEHEDYA, *YOU* the mispallelim have an
    obligation to walk out in protest and not to give a Penny contribution, then
    let's see who is Tattele, Mr. Big Moish. MI BIKESH ZOS MIYEDCHEM REMOS
    CHATSEROY! VehoElokim yevakesh es HaNIRDOF. AMEN

    The People take this opportunity while we are at it, and beg the Dayonim
    haMechubodim uGeoinim uPoskei haDOR asher yoshvim al HAMODIN, MIKOL KITSVOS
    TEIVEL, umiBEIS DIN HAGODOL SHEBEYERUSHALAYIM, to make a through cleanup of all
    HASHEMESH. THESE tofsei safsalei beis haMidrsh, are dayonim asher einom
    mehugonim bringing tsorois rabos al Yisroel, ve'asher lo higiu lehoiro'o,
    umegalim ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha, anshei rodfei betsa, anoshim chatoi'im
    veroim laH' meoid, ve'avoinom koshe minsoi, chomets gam bepesach, vegam kol
    she'ar yemos haShono, veasher 'Es iz nisht gut far Yidden'. DAYONIM CHAVIVIM,
    Metsudaschem prusso miYerushalayim ve'al kol haGoilo kulah, ono rachem no,
    vehoishioh no, ki bou' mayim ad nofesh! GEVALD RABOISEI! ES BRENT A FAYER IN
    VELO NIREH KEVALA ES HOKODESH CHAS VESHOLEM. Umi sheomar leoilomoi da'y yomar
    letsoroisenu da'y. Amen

  70. I think you are mixing it up with bar Kamtsa;)

  71. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 8:10 PM

    Hey, left that line for you. ....:-D

    To which I add the line. .....

    "That brought the churban" ;)

  72. Politically IncorrectDecember 14, 2015 at 8:13 PM

    To the first paragraph or the second (or both)? o_0

  73. Yes very murky , I think it would be very useful to aggregate all of the facts in the storyline with applicable documents in one post since it's getting harder for people with to follow ,,with so many lies obfuscations and the denials, names and counterclaims that sort of turning into the Croatian Serbian conflict with you had so many players nobody can figure out who is fighting whom and for what reason

  74. Actually not strange at all. I understand the need for anonymity, and would like to know when it can be safely be discarded. Besides, it's unseasonably warm her in the USA ... ya know .. global warming and all .... that cloak is making me sweat!

  75. ROFL! Boruch shekivanti.

  76. If you look close enough again, there's my wink ;)

  77. It is of great importance and interest, what transpired and the substance of the exchange amongst the K's and RNG before RNG accepted the proposal outside of the written note. The TIME LAPSE tween
    1) the exchange to acceptance of proposal
    2) acceptance of proposal to HETER NESIUN
    3) HETER NESIUN to being MESADER if any
    4) or was the HETER NESIUN simultaneous with being MESADER
    this will shed some more light on this saga.

  78. Since there was a Kidushin bekesef and chupah, there remains a SAFEK KIDUSHIN, and she needs a Get to rid of the SAFEK. That is the essence of Teitse mize Umize. No bow/wow necessary.

  79. no, she refused to cooperate with the counselor.

    at least not till she found a couple that $reported$ for her OCD and paranoia.

  80. Politically IncorrectDecember 16, 2015 at 2:47 AM

    Why, What's the safek here?

  81. This is the Dynamics of Teitse mize umize, since maybe the Kidushin was chal, veidach zil ugmor.

  82. Politically IncorrectDecember 17, 2015 at 9:03 PM

    What's the wait now for retracting?

  83. Politically IncorrectDecember 17, 2015 at 9:08 PM

    Okay zil u'gmor. Can you please give mareh mekomos?

  84. Here goes, but rofl you must gmor yourself, hafoch bo vehafoch bo dekulei bo!

    האשהשהלך : יבמות
    Perek Asiri daf 87:
    See also in Mishnayos Tiferes Yisroel wit R'AV and Tosfos Yom Tov. There are many more, when I have a chance. Shabbat Shalom.


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