Monday, January 11, 2010

Rav Dunner responds to EJF attack

5tJewish Times

It is long established pattern of the hired cheer-leaders of the ejf to attempt to blacken the name of anyone who criticizes their activities in any way - the pot of gold that the ejf has found is worth $25 million and counting and who wants to lose out on that? but it is clear who the real ganef is in this sad story - it is anyone who associates themselves with this organization whose sole function is to leech as much money as possible out of Mr. Kaplan. The feeble attempts to publish fact sheets in the jewish media demonstrates what and who they are - no serious or well meaning organization finds it necessary to print fact sheets stating that they are not low-lives, not ganovim, etc etc. this is usually a given in any moisad - and if they have to publish something of this nature it can only be that they are and always have been goineiv daas habri'os on a giant scale. [...]


  1. Did Reb Elya Ber really never agree, or did he initially agree only to scurry off when the heat was turned up?

  2. Rabbi Dunner phenomenal response, keep strong sheker ain lo raglaim, you will prevail with emes, history has always shown so..
    there are those that are trying to draw some warped conclusions that her geyros invalidates the audio, lets use our own judgement, no where in the audio does it specifically say there was physical, so stop using this warped thinking that its "eidos shebotlo miktzoso", nothing in the tape was disproven not one iota, the tape is clearly only refering to phone s-x, and that has never been disproven to the contrary it has only been verified by her herself.
    she claiming to bais din there was no physical, we dont specifically hear the contrary on the audio. "i like it with leba" can mean shopping, "i want things to remain as they were" can mean one of hundred things, the bottom line the authenticated audio puts tropper at no level of trust and no way does her geirus vindicate, it might just mean as per the bais dins view at the time there was no physical hence they were megayer her, does that make tropper a tzaddik absolutely not, does that invalidate any part of the audio, (which talks only specifically phone s-x) absolutely not, does that mean if there will be future audio or video of physical that it means its a forge, also absolutely not, it just means the bais din at the time with their understanding was lied to, does that invalidate her geirus retro of course not , now she is sincere!
    just some common sense!

  3. Now he really took off his gloves and put all the truth on the table, lets see what they come up with now, its almost reaching the point of no return for EJF, they are getting deeper and deeper into the mud, soon they will be buried "Umocho H dimah meal kol ponim"

  4. I would just like to say, that in the UK Jewish community, Rav Dunner well known as a senior and respected Rav, and somebody who rarely or never is involved in machlokes. Despite being firmly in the Haredi world, the more modern and tradtional Jews also appreciate him very much.

    Furthermore, he is exposing what a halachic sham the EJF really is, and a hypocritical one at that.
    Look at whata network of informers the haredi Yated/ Degel world has. A tdaddik and great Rosh Yeshiva - rav Druckman, who doees things according to the Shulchan Aruch, and is sometimes strict and sometimes lenient, and hasnt' touched taited money, is treated like a war criminal.
    On the other hand, a modern day Jacob Frank, who is corrupt to his bones, is treated like a Messiah (no pun intended). He bribes and makes phoney conversions, with any Bet Din who will accept his cases. But his henchment keep quiet. Even now, they are still quiet, not even mentioning anything he has done.

  5. WOW!!! Thank you Rabbi Dunner.

  6. i just dont get lubicom and the ejf pr machine, with a straight face they claim in their ads "ejf never involved itself ever in a conversion", well before making such a bold statement i would hope they would be smart enough to look into ejf before making such a claim, because my wife has a friend she goes to gym with who was converted by tropper himself, he signed off on her shtaar geyrus she showed it herself to my wife. of course she said she is scared to state this publicly now not wanting to damage her geyrus validity.
    (this is besides all the other scams in this ejf organization, as rav dunner pointed out so well).

  7. Rav Dunner put it very well.

    He has said it the best so far. This letter puts it better than anything written in the past 3 weeks since the scandal broke.

  8. Will somebody translate this rant into English for me?

  9. I feel Rabbi Dunner has really escalated this now. These are serious allegations. If it can be truly shown that there were field workers who were bounty hunting for intermarried couples then in my opinion the whole organization loses all credibility as a serious orthodox mosaid, if it hasn't already. At this point I feel the ball is in Rav Reuvain Feinstein's court. As the President of the Halachic committee, I believe he does now need to investigate what has actually been happening in the field and tell us his findings. The PR machine is not to be trusted, surely we need to hear from the Rav himself ?

  10. Rabbi Dunner is as straight as an arrow; invoking his famous sense of humor to make letzonusa d'avoda zara! Poor Lubicom has finally met his match!

  11. Reb Elya Ber's own talmidim are at a loss at how to explain why their Rosh Yeshiva somehow always manages to end up on the wrong side of the issue.

  12. Too bad we declared our Independence from England.

  13. It's regrettable that Reb Aba Dunner is portrayed as a Rav, he isn't one and never has been.

    His father was the Rov of the Adas community in London, his brother is a Dayan of the same kehillo, two of his sons are rabbonim, but he isn't.

    Not that that disqualifies in any way the facts and the opinions he makes in the articles.

  14. So if they don't defend themselves someone like Shternbach will say they are guilty.

    If they do defend themselves someone like Dunner will say they are guilty.

    It appears that the prejudice against them knows no bounds. People without seeing all of the evidence, will make their decisions based on prior feelings concerning the organization.

    Even as the evidence begins to crumble as Mekubal bravely points out, people will cling to prejudicial preconceived notions of what MUST be right.

    What a sick and twisted Judaism this represents.

  15. Rav Dunner, I thank you from the depths of my heart. It wasn't long ago that I would talk to my non-religious family members about the beauty of Torah Judaism, and they could sense my excitement and enthusiasm. I don't get into these discussions with them anymore, because I am neither excited nor enthused about it.
    Yes, I know Torah Judaism is the most wonderful faith, and doing it properly will get one close to Hashem. We need leaders that are principled, fearless, and that are vigorous seekers of emes. We need more Rabbi Dunners, and less of those "gedolim" still drinking the EJF coolaid. I believe there are many like me that are becoming increasingly disillusioned with the state of Torah Jewry. The silence of Rabbis Feinstein, Ehrentreu, Kaminetzky, Eichenstein and others is deafening. They should all resign from their leadership roles, and apologize to the K'lal for allowing themselves to be knowingly used, all for a few (million) bucks. itchiemayer

  16. This si the guy who LT is claiming did revenge on him.

  17. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 12, 2010 at 10:04 AM

    Yasher Koach to Rabbi Dunner for getting the story straight and saying it the way it is! This is truly the end of EJF if a mainstream Orthodox rabbi like Rabbi Dunner condemns them like this no holds barred!

    To Tom Kaplan: Wake up and smelll the coffee, your number's up, EJF's game is over, quit whilst you still have a drop of respect left!

    Rabbis don't even want your money anymore because they know it's treif and toxic and does not bring any brocha at all, in fact you have the reverse midas touch, so far everything you have invested your tens of millions in, starting with Leib and Leba Tropper, Guma, EJF and now distant rabbis and batei din have failed you!

    Go home, feed your tortoise some more worms, take your wife and kids out to some healthy treif restaurants like you told everyone in the latest Times article, and take care of the world's endangered big cats, the little pussy cats also need help you know and maybe that can be your next big great project, like handing out free cat food to cat lovers, but PLEASE, leave the Jewish people alone and get the heck out of the conversion business that you know nothing about.

  18. "and hasnt' touched taited money,"

    How can this be said about any employee of the state of Israel? That money is certainly tainted and sent with political pressure and expectations attached. Not that I disagree with your main/overall point.

  19. Anon says :"How can this be said about any employee of the state of Israel? That money is certainly tainted and sent with political pressure and expectations attached."

    You raise a very interesting point. If I elaborate on it, I will be called an anarchist/heretic, but I will take my chances anyhow.
    Anyone who earns money for making halachic decisions, is in effect bribed. Whether the income comes from the State, from a private donation, from a Kashrus certificate. Why is a Glatt chicken 2 or 3x the price of a regular Kosher one? Can anyone involved say that the money hasn't influenced them? This is not ideological - it can happen from the most modern/zionist certificate to the most Haredi anti-zionist one.
    In ancient times,everybody would slaughter their own livestock - but nowadays we rely on centralised shochtim.
    I don't see a problem per se in being a state employee - as long as there is no conflict of interest between Halacha and secular law. This type of conflict occurs quite often, eg in the army, and also the conversion courts. The PM might give guidelines to convert 300,000 russian olim, whereas only 3000 are carried out. That is why Olmert sacked Druckman.
    One can only be free of this risk of taineted money, if one works privately in business, and makes no profit from their work as Dayan or Rav, or shochet.

  20. "If it can be truly shown that there were field workers who were bounty hunting for intermarried couples then in my opinion the whole organization loses all credibility as a serious orthodox mosaid"

    The filed workers have been Lubavitch shluchim. Troppers org. has been paying the shluchim to refer intermarrieds for years. Chabad does operate like bounty hunters searching after "lost Jews" (or Mexicans whom they claim are Jews who fled the Inquisition).

    I can post names and stories of specific intermarried couples I know of who were recruited by Chabad and then converted by EJF bribed Batei Din.

    I agree with Henoch that it is too bad that we declared independence from England. Right now I am lamenting that I gave up my British citizenship.

  21. The EJF has published an electronic pashkivil, nothing more.

    The good news is that they did not have to spend any of the millions they were given on cheap copy paper or glue.

    And they say EJF isn't a careful and responsible organization!

  22. Men in the white coatsJanuary 12, 2010 at 3:50 PM

    "Insane" picked a very appropriate name for himself which sums up his defense of Tropper.

  23. if tropper pulled the wool over the eyes of the american gedolei hador and many israel gedolim that he was raising standards of gerus shame on him and shame on us i think we can expect blum to resighn very soon because he is a straight shooter and probaly did not know what really was going on maron reb elya ber was relighing on blum who he trusted (he knows now what tropper is)

  24. Here's the million dollar question as far as I'm concerned:

    Whenever a scandal breaks by a brave victim coming forward, it's usually not long before the dam breaks and more people who were victimized by the criminal come forward.

    With all the mud that has been slung since this broke, where are the other victims?

    What does the lack of other victims indicate?

  25. orthodoxjew blum is not going anywhere. he is so proud of his new job he cant stop smiling like rabbi dunner wrote he was a personal assistant who became in charge of a multi million dollar bank account and he is loving it

  26. Anon 5:18 --

    How do you know that the orthodoxjew blog is Blum?

  27. To Million dollar question troll for Tropper: It does not indicate anything other than show haw much geirim and baalei teshuva crave being accepted into the community. When they speak up they get shunned. Case in point look at how EJF just lashed out at Rabbi Dunner. All the more so an individual who isn't a famous person.

  28. Not every conversion is proselytising. There are descendents of Marrano Jews, who identify as Jews, but may have intermarried. There are many lost communities in Kibbutz Galuyot. The Ethiopian Jews (i dont mean the falashamura christians) were considered halachically Jewish by some Rabbis, and others suggested they undergo symbolic conversion. So, would that make the machmir rabbis treif because they suggested mass conversion?
    The argument of "proselytisation" becomes absurd - and ultimately imlies that no conversion is permitted.
    And the same goes for the argument against conversion for marriage. some communities, eg the Syrian, and now the Persian in New York, have forbidden conversion for marriage. So what does a covnert say ot the beth din, that they dont wish to get married, and want to stay celibate all their life? Get real. Moses married a midianite, Joseph an Egyptian, Judah a canaanite. Rechavam HaMelech wasn't even Jewish aaccording to modern halacha, his mother was an Ammonite.

  29. orthodoxjew said...

    if tropper pulled the wool over the eyes of the american gedolei hador and many israel gedolim that he was raising standards of gerus shame on him and shame on us i think we can expect blum to resighn very soon because he is a straight shooter and probaly did not know what really was going on maron reb elya ber was relighing on blum who he trusted (he knows now what tropper is)

    i learned in south fallsburgh in r' Elya Ber's shiur a few years ago and dont know of anybody - even in s. fallsburgh - who refers to him as 'maran'. He is either referred to as "the rosh yeshiva" or by his name "Reb Elya Ber".

    while i have tremendous respect for him, and i thoroughly believe in his desire for only doing good, he is not infallible. Many talmidim i know are amazed at how too often he ends up on the wrong side of an issue.

  30. Eddie said...

    "... Moses married a midianite, Joseph an Egyptian, Judah a canaanite."

    Yes, and many of the unions that occurred before har senai would not be allowed today.

    We have a clear halacha to push away converts very strongly, only to accept a convert who wants to be able to fulfill taryag mitzvos instead of just seven because he or she wants to get closer to Hashem.

    There are various reasons for it. One reason (for their sake) is so that there is less chance that they take on the ability to commit many more aveiros and then change their minds, thus incurring huge ohnshin.

    So turn around what Tropper said about a Jewish male being on a higher madreiga living with a non Jewish woman than a non frum Jewish woman.

    Consider: If she converts and he is a BT, and then later they look at the picture today, decide they made a mistake, and go back to living the way they did before. No Shabbos, no taharas hamishpocha, and so on.

    This is quite possible if one converted because he or she was "so in love" with the other. The BT could feel that he now needs to repay the favor when she changes back, they could split up and one become frei... There are many scenarios. And that is only one reason chazal give.

    But we don't really need a reason. That is the halacha. When R' Reuven dismissively answers this by asking, "So what do you want them to do, get a divorce?", the answer to him is "YES, if that is the halacha.

  31. Anonymous said...

    You are quite right. My point is that there are times when we do mass conversions. Even after Har Sinai.
    The book of Ruth, is also one about conersion for marriage. The question being when she actually converted. If She converted to marry Boaz, it was conversion for marriage. You could argue that it was a mitzvah of Yibbum, so she converted for the mitzvah. Well any marriage is a mitzvah, so this could apply to any convert marrying for marriage.
    As for divorce - in Ezra's time, he forced them to divorce their wives - the reason seems to be that a) they were formthe 7 nations, and Ezra didnt want to repeat the chain of events that started with King Solomon's wives. b) They were idolaters, לֹא-נִבְדְּלוּ הָעָם יִשְׂרָאֵל וְהַכֹּהֲנִים וְהַלְוִיִּם, מֵעַמֵּי הָאֲרָצוֹת: כְּתֹעֲבֹתֵיהֶם לַכְּנַעֲנִי הַחִתִּי הַפְּרִזִּי הַיְבוּסִי, הָעַמֹּנִי הַמֹּאָבִי, הַמִּצְרִי, וְהָאֱמֹרִי.

    Their abominations - ie they were still worshipping idols.
    c) Many of the Jews were cohanim, who of course cannot even marry a regular convert.

    I respectfully suggest that those who are descended from the Tribe of Israel, are not simply goyim , but have some history of Jewishness about them. I don't think that is the same as mass conversion.
    The example of the Ethiopians is the best. For those who doubted their authemticity (ie the Haredi Ashkenazim), they suggested mass conversion. So in some situations, eg marranos and lost Jews, "mass conversion is not such a terrible thing.
    That doesn't mean we should try to convert anyone we can and do an EJF.
    Irony is, that EJF turned out to be infinitely worse than the Druckman special conversion court.

  32. Does anyone have a fax number for Rav reuvn so he could read what is going on in the world with the EJF, I believe that he is just being fed what people want him to hear and nothing else?

  33. i only refer on the blogs to rav elya ber like that because in america im affraid since rav elya svei passing/illness there is no one left who can transmit the mesorah in its purest form as for the rosh yeshivas positions stop qoting talmidim who dont understand just remember the rosh yeshiva has seyato deshmayoh a little more than the bloggers

  34. To the ever persistent Tropper troll- you asked the very same 'million dollar question' on Harry Maryles blog and on another post on this blog. Successful trolls take the trouble to rewrite their questions, to appear authentic and thoughtful. Apparently, appearing and authentic is not a principal concern of yours.

    The answer as to why there haven't been other victims that have come forward is rather simple. I will answer you in the same way.

    This isn't your average scandal. This is about sex.

    To this day, there are victims of child abuse who have not come forward because of the hoops and derision they have to endure- and that speaks to those who are adults today. The more recent child victims do not need to be put on display for a whole lot of reasons, none of them good.

    I don't blame the past or present victims one bit for wanting to keep a low profile. They have suffered enough.

  35. orthodoxjew said...

    i only refer on the blogs to rav elya ber like that because in america im affraid since rav elya svei passing/illness there is no one left who can transmit the mesorah in its purest form as for the rosh yeshivas positions stop qoting talmidim who dont understand just remember the rosh yeshiva has seyato deshmayoh a little more than the blogg.....

    i am not quoting, i speak for myself, friends that learned there and other fallsburgh associated people that very much respect him.

    and its not just about the tropper issue, i know of issues going back 15 years. including divorces, and other fights between people.

    and as far your fears go, calling him 'maran' just sounds silly to most people.

  36. Don't refer to him as LT - it's not fair to Lawrence Tayor a.k.a. LT - who was at least a great football player

  37. so ben you did not agree with a position rav elya ber took on a get im sure you have no negiose

  38. "since rav elya svei passing/illness there is no one left who can transmit the mesorah in its purest form"

    You mean, there is no one who such an extremist kanno'i.

    Don't talk about "pure mesorah" - if you want to know what traditional Judaism actually looked like, learn some history. You'll see that while Rav Elya Ber might be a terrific lamdan, he does not represent traditional Judaism.

  39. With all the talk here about kovod hatorah for REBW, why does no one remember kavod hatorah for Reb Elya Svei zatazl who put tropper in cherem, i know choshver people in monsey who still today wont enter troppers 4 amos becasue of what reb elya svei said about him!!

  40. All the comments about Rus, Moshe rabbeinu's wife etc are not relevant.

    If someone today did what Yaakov Ovinu did and married two sisters, his children from the 2nd wife would be mamzerim.

  41. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner ...

    Anyone who says the Torah is not relevant... OK, I am not posulling your conversions, but every word of the Torah is relevant dear boy. Perhaps withthe exception of Rambam in Moreh Hanevuchim, majority of rabbis argue that the Avot kept the entire Torah (including Oral Law) even before Matan Torah. Isn't the whole point of studying the Torah to learn how and what to do? Furthermore, I suggest we need to study more Torah, to get a better feel for what the Torah is telling us.
    Example - the Torah tells us that Egyptians can only enter Kahal Yisrael after 4 generations. You might argue "oh well, it's not the same egyptians as today, and 2- 4 years is enough these days", but it teaches us something very important. A nation has certain traits or embedded psychology, which doesnt necessarily wash away in the mikveh waters. So you can take a woman out of Moav, but can you take the Moav out of the woman? As we have seen throughout the Tenach, marriage with Nochrim has often brought us troubles. Some nations need a 4 generation de-tox before they can become Israelites! Because they are so morally corrupt. Others, cannot ever de-tox, because it is in their genes and irreversible!

    Btw, I wonder if anybody knows the reason why Rav Svei put tropper in Herem? And if Rav Svei was one of the Gedolei HaDor (excuse my ignorance), why was this not paid attention to by the other Great Rabbis who backed tropper?

  42. so ben you did not agree with a position rav elya ber took on a get im sure you have no negiose

    this is not about any specific case.
    nobody that i know personally has gotten a divorce that he was involved in.
    over the years there have been some high profile divorces and disputes that he was involved in.

    in any case i find it somewhat ironic you mention negius

  43. Dear Editor,

    Below please find the text of an Op Ed column we are submitting for your consideration, on the subject of Conversion, the RCA, and recent related developments in the Orthodox world, both in the US and Israel. We believe that it is an important statement by the leading Orthodox Rabbinic Organization in North America on a critical issue currently confronting the Jewish people. It clarifies numerous matters that have been a source of confusion or ignorance on the part of many in the Jewish community.

    We will be pleased to supply additional information upon request.

    If you do run it, we would appreciate your notifying us of that fact.

    If for some reason you cannot run it as an Op Ed, please feel free to use its contents for an article on conversion to Judaism, as brought about through the RCA and its GPS system, now or in the future.

    Either way, we would be pleased to discuss the subject, via our Conversion-related spokesman, Rabbi Barry Freundel, whose contact-information is listed below.


    Basil Herring, Executive Vice President, RCA


  44. The RCA's GPS Conversion System:

    Proof Positive of its Importance and Value

    By Rabbi Moshe Kletenik and Rabbi Barry Freundel

    Recent allegations of impropriety on the part of the founder and head of the Eternal Jewish Family (EJF), an organization involved with potential converts to Judaism, has again focused the attention of the Jewish community on the conversion process. Rather than dwell on the failures of other organizations, the Rabbinical Council of America prefers to use this opportunity to highlight those aspects of the RCA's GPS (Geirus Policies and Standards conversion system established in February 2008, that prevent the kinds of problems associated with EJF and other conversion programs, in the Orthodox community. We would also like to discuss some of the positive aspects of the GPS structure that serve the community beyond any concerns about inappropriate activities.

    GPS was established to aid potential converts to Judaism, while at the same time diminishing thorny questions of personal status. For years, conversion had been performed in ad hoc fashion by local rabbis, but without detailed mutually agreed upon standards and procedures. While the vast majority of conversions were handled appropriately, some were not. As a result, in recent years even those who had fulfilled the halachic requirements were finding their conversions unfairly questioned and scrutinized - not just in Israel but in many Orthodox communities to which they or their children had moved. It is significant that because of such inconsistencies, in the early 1990's the RCA established regional conversion courts that were not organized into a formal network. That action alone, however, did not sufficiently address the problems.

    To help solve this growing crisis, therefore, the RCA, in partnership with the Beth Din of America, took the next step and established the GPS network based on the following principles.

    Courts and Judges
    Qualifying regional courts are established, or if they already exist, are included. To ensure equal treatment, the courts follow transparent and published rules and procedures, fully disclosed to every candidate.

    These procedures were formulated by the RCA, without being imposed by any outside rabbinate. Indeed in almost every respect the standards of GPS are consistent with the voluntary conversion guidelines adopted by the RCA in 1989, even as they allow for greater flexibility.

    The courts function under the direction and leadership of local rabbis from across the Orthodox ideological spectrum. The judges are approved by GPS leadership. They do not have to be members of the RCA, but to avoid confusion a rabbi who serves as a GPS judge cannot do "outside" conversions. The courts meet candidates several times during the process to monitor progress and suggest additional areas of study.

    GPS is a not-for-profit system. There are incidental expenses such as tutoring, mikveh, mohel, and operating costs. None of the judges profit financially from their many hours of dedicated service.


  45. Sponsoring Rabbis
    To ensure that each convert is shepherded through the process in a personalized fashion, each candidate is introduced to the court by a sponsoring rabbi. Because he is not a judge on that case, that rabbi avoids the conflict of being an advocate who is also an objective judge. The sponsoring rabbi mentors and guides the candidate, working with the Bet Din. To be a sponsoring rabbi one does not have to be a member of the RCA.

    Administration of GPS
    GPS has a centralized office at the RCA, reporting to a committee representing the various regional courts. Complaints are handled jointly by the GPS administrator and the GPS committee, in consultation with the Bet Din.

    A GPS website facilitates information sharing, education, and communications among the courts, candidates, and others. A confidential database of all GPS converts is maintained, ensuring that future questions will be appropriately answered.

    Non-GPS Conversions
    While the RCA encourages its members to use GPS, it recognizes that some may choose not to, in their role as the local rabbinic authority. Such rabbis recognize that other rabbis are similarly free to not recognize conversions from outside GPS in their jurisdiction.

    In less than two years approximately 300 GPS fully accepted conversions have taken place, under the supervision of scores of approved judges across North America, with hundreds more candidates in process. For a new system, GPS is working astonishingly well. There are, of course, improvements to be made in some areas, and the RCA is committed to a constant review of all aspects of the program.

    We believe that GPS will continue to help establish the credentials of those who choose, of their own free will, to join the Jewish people, while avoiding problems that sometimes occur, as sadly becomes evident from time to time.

    GPS does not presume to claim, as others have, that its conversions will be "universally recognized," insofar as we believe that there can be no such thing before the arrival of mashiach. Yet we do believe that our system goes a long way toward establishing widely accepted outcomes, given that GPS conversions have been accepted across the ideological spectrum of Orthodoxy.

    Aside from all of the benefits to the converts themselves, GPS thus contributes to precious Jewish unity and cooperation, among rabbis, laymen, and their communities.

    Rabbi Moshe Kletenik is the President of the Rabbinical Council of America
    Rabbi Barry Freundel is the Chairman of the GPS Committee of the Rabbinical Council of America.

  46. The key provision that caught my eye was:

    "Non-GPS Conversions

    While the RCA encourages its members to use GPS, it recognizes that some may choose not to, in their role as the local rabbinic authority. Such rabbis recognize that other rabbis are similarly free to not recognize conversions from outside GPS in their jurisdiction."

    So we see here, even the RCA recognizes that it is entirely acceptable and permissible to NOT recognize another rabbis "conversion"!

  47. >Perhaps with the exception of Rambam in Moreh Hanevuchim, majority of rabbis argue that the Avot kept the entire Torah (including Oral Law) even before Matan Torah.<

    So how was Yakov able to marry two sisters????

    >>I wonder if anybody knows the reason why Rav Svei put tropper in Herem? And if Rav Svei was one of the Gedolei HaDor (excuse my ignorance), why was this not paid attention to by the other Great Rabbis who backed tropper?<<

    Great question!

  48. Joseph said...

    >Perhaps with the exception of Rambam in Moreh Hanevuchim, majority of rabbis argue that the Avot kept the entire Torah (including Oral Law) even before Matan Torah.<

    So how was Yakov able to marry two sisters????
    This is a famous question to which there are many answers - one is the Ramban that the prohibition was only in Israel

  49. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 13, 2010 at 10:07 AM

    Tom Kaplans' coming divorce from EJF, part one:

    Tom Kaplan is just waiting for the right moment to bail out of the EJF fiasco once and for all. The puff piece in the NY Times was not just meant as a distraction to the mess Kaplan got himself into be hooking up with Tropper and launching the ill-fated ill-conceived EJF scheme.

    It may well be that it was an article about Kaplan's DIVORCE from the EJF crowd "coming out party" as the new head of the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan and his "coronation" there by none other than the wealthy self-declared atheist Jewish philanthropist Michael Steinhardt.

    There is no way that Tropper could come to the 92nd Street Y as Kaplan's guest, they would hoot him out in a second, and Kaplan has no intention of letting Tropper into such an august secular sanctum of non-Orthodox Jewish culture in the heart of Manhattan!

    "Divorce" has as many, if not more, stages and rituals than courtship and marriage do. Divorces do not happen overnight. They are the result of a long process with the "presenting evidence" like adultery for example only being "the last straw" that breaks the camel's back.

    The REVELATION of Tropper's sexcapades on the now infamous publicly available Shannon Orand-Leib and Leba Tropper recordings, as well as the knowldege that more incriminating evidence against Tropper and other higher-ups at EJF exists, that already forced Tropper's and R EB Wachtfogel's resignations as heads of EJF, was the equivalant of the final "adultery" (in the sense of disloyalty to the EJF cause) and "prostitution" (in the sense of buying and selling under the EJF mantel of sexual favors and tricks) MUST have been the final straw for Kaplan.

    Kaplan MUST have wanted to cut his losses, and in fact he did that by showing that he does not need the headaches of working with the Charedi mob beseeching him for mega cash all the time when he can just as easily go over to the 92nd Street Y crowd in Manhattan who have plenty of money of their own and are a more relaxing and relaxed group of people for Kaplan. They have no interest in being "converted" to anything, least of all the now infamous toxic brew of EJF-style supposedly ultra-charedi "universally accpted" conversions that they would laugh out of town! They have the long-established Reform movement and Temple Emanu-el in Manhattan, respected by the 92nd Street Y crowd, to help them with the gentiles they marry and that they are already

    The 92nd Street Y is the literal Mecca of the ultra-rich and talented Jewish secular and traditionalist elite, where Jewish CULTURE is valued above all else and from that perch as the 92nd Street Y new head Kaplan can expand and be in touch with the secular, Reform, Conservative, Conservadox, Federation "ruling classes" who will adore and and follow him, unlike the rowdy rude Charedim like Tropper who have betrayed and humiliated the name of Tom Kaplan and his wife Dafna Recanati with all the ongoing mud-slinging at him penetrating mainstream Jewish media and not just marginal blogs that is unavoidable as long as he and Dafna stay with the discredited EJF and by implication is still behind the disgraced Leib and Leba Tropper dismal duo.

    This explains why Rabbis Reuven Feinstein, CH Ehrentrau and Stern (all mega recipients of Kaplan's largesse via Tropper's toxic palms) are being foisted as praising Tom Kaplan because they are in ultra panic mode and they know that Kaplan is no dope. He needs the sunken EJF Titanic like a big hole in the head.

  50. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 13, 2010 at 10:09 AM

    Tom Kaplan's coming divorce from EJF, part two:

    For Kaplan, the EJF charade was nice while it lasted. A couple of years ago he was told by Tropper and R Reuven Feinstein not to worry about the ultra Charedi BADATS attacks against EJF, and maybe they could have chimed in that the RCA's post-Tropper sex scandal statement was just a pip-squeek left-wing Orthodox organization, but now with the THIRD strike from the London Bais Din, in effect it is the mainstream reliable Orthodox rabbinate of Great Britain that is wiping its hands clean of not just Tropper but of ANYTHING TO DO WITH the EJF scheme and are now wiping the floor with it, that makes it three strikes and you're out.

    Kaplan knows this principle. It is also in Jewish Law, a Chazaka, that three rabbinical organizations with their own reputbale and long-established batei din representing hundreds of rabbis, regardless if they wear shtreimlach and kappotes, or wear kippot serugot and colored jackets, or wear black yarmulkas and dressed in dark suits, from left (the RCA), right (the BADATS), and center (the London Bais Din) are ALL saying the EXACT same thing, that not only is Tropper rotten but so is EJF and the only right thing to do is to shut EJF down PERMANANTLY once and for all and let it go defunct. Tropper's behavior, validate by his resignation, killed EJF, his resignation and that of R EB Wachtfogel who was forced to step back quickly and the tepid yet true "apologies" from EJF (moda bemiktzas) and resulting storm resulting from the publication of the Shannon Orand-Tropper sex talk tapes and the media frenzy all BURRIED EJF, if you haven't noticed.

    The only thing left to do, is to shovel the metaphorical earth over it and bury it once and for all. Let it lie (good pun) in peace, and it's time to say Kaddish and do a post-morten on the EJF monster that wanted to gobble up Klal Yisroel for its own deluded self-gratification and self-glorification. Nice try, but no cigar!

  51. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 13, 2010 at 10:10 AM

    Tom Kaplan's coming divorce from EJF, part three:

    Tom Kaplan telling the world through the NY Times about him feeding his tortoise worms was the unofficial pathetic "obituary" to EJF, seeing that no mention was made of how Tom Kaplan has fed tens of millions of real mega bucks to naive and gullible and malleable Charedi rabbis.

    Kaplan is well aware of all this, He is a keen reader and observer of all INTELLIGENT input, and he wants to bail out from the EJF quagmire, it is only the remaining EJF rabbis and people on EJF's payroll like Menachem Lubinsky the EJF propaganda czar who are begging Kaplan to stay on when he is already about to walk out the door and slam it shut on them, they don't want the big divorce coming from him. So they take elaborate ads to praise him in all the Jewish media that will take their cash-for-begging, they add five more dubious signatures PRAISING (with chanifa)=BEGGING (afraid of a get) from Kaplan to "please, please, please" weeping with fake crocodile tears, pleading with Kaplan not to dump them for the more harmonious, tranquil, receptive and responsive (for him) 92nd Street Y where he and his wiwfe Dafna Recanati and their children will be a lot more happy than with the strident EJF charedim on the take. Kaplan's nerves will be calmer feeding his tortoise worms on Sundays, and writing big checks to save lions and leopards, that seeing his name trashed and stored FOREVER on all the world's servers whenever anyone Google's his name.

    The Rabbonim running after Kaplan should please stop tscheppering and nudging and dreying him a kup.

    Kaplan needs to do what he needs to do to presereve his wife Dafna Recanati's and his own good name and his future and that of his children, and that is why he has puffy infomercials PR ads praising himself put into the prestigious NY Times. That article was not just puffy fluff, it was also a letter of intent that he is going to rid himself of EJF some time soon. The puff piece never said a word about the tens of millions he has poured into EJF and paid its attending rabbis and potential conversos and it will not be long now before Kaplan makes it 100% official that he has cut his losses with EJF and he will tell them to have a nice day, I have better things to do, like feed my tortoise on Sundays, save wild cats in the jungles, look for precious minerals all over the world, have tea at Oxford, run my 92nd Street Y bastion of secular Judaism, and get my name in big headlights in the NY Times without it being muddied and shmutzed by the likes of the disgraced Tropper and the pain in the neck flopped EJF scheme that hangs like a putrid dead albatross around Kaplan's neck. It will also make the legal challenge he faces from his nephew Guma Aguiar a lot easier, that he no longer has connections with a discredited and shamed ex "rabbi" like Tropper and he does not support failed and inpossible schemes like EJF.

    Stay tuned!

  52. "The only money I or my shul received from EJF/Horizons was the "schar batals" checks that were distributed to every attendee at each conference..."

    I am appalled to hear that EJF used to pay people to attend their conferences.

  53. Rabbi Eidensohn.
    This is not necessarily for publication, but I have been looking and no one has addressed these issues. Please edit appropriately, or just file this for your own use and pondering.

    The door that this scandal has opened for misanthrops who abuse their wives, justify phone sex, and generally abuse women has not even been addressed. Having a high profile rabbinic figure taped saying he fantasizes about rape provided a carteblanche for other sick minded individuals who act out their sexually violent fantasizes, abusing their wives and/or other women. Ditto for phone sex. Allowing innuendo of lesbian behavior to be expressed with no one addressing it at all as an issur opens the door not only to men who may want the voyeurism of viewing this behavior (sick), or of homosexually inclined women to abuse other women or girls, or to even have consensual homosexual relationships.

    The real lack of leadership here happened when tropper issued a statement that he may have been inappropriate in his modesty (that is not a quote, but the gist of what he said). At that point someone needed to say that phone sex, lesbian sex, male viewing of lesbian sex and acting out sexual fantasies even if no actual halachic sexual intercourse took place is halachically ossur, not just inappropriate slip ups in modesty.

    At the same time, the issur of pilegesh which tropper was trying to invoke, (that is why the contract was so important) also needed to be re-expressed. The silence puts us light years back in addressing the abuse of women in our society. Would someone please stand up and speak up.

    As an aside, the only response that made any sense to troppers little statement was the fellow who said he made it sound like he went out to get the newspaper with his bathrobe on.

  54. What is Mekubals justification of the contents of the recordings? It's plain as day that the menuval was manipulating her into highly appropriate behavior! Where did he even come up with such ideas? I bet if you checked his internet log (if it wasn't deleted) that salacious sites depicting these fantasies would show up.

  55. to the guy who wrote about kaplans divorce in three parts all i have to say is maybe you should go in to writing science fiction novels and while yur add it maybe get slifkin to do the science and you can do the flying sawcer

  56. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 13, 2010 at 4:47 PM

    "orthodoxjew the guy who wrote about kaplans [sic] divorce in three parts all i [sic] have to say is maybe you should go in to [sic] writing science fiction novels and while yur [sic] add [sic] it maybe get slifkin to do the science and you can do the flying sawcer [sic]"

    Buddy, maybe you should learn to spell and write English before you make comments about anything. Each time I added [sic] it means you made a genuine mistake in your writing and spelling. It just proves you cannot read and write English, nebech!

    Next time, if you have a problem, say what you agree or disagree with, but what's the point of attacking an anonymous analyst while avoiding saying anything intelligent on the subject.

    So tell me, which points do you not like or disagree with? Can you even write that much? Maybe your mother can help with the English, if not get yourself an English tutor or get a high school diploma to educate yourself and not sound like you are working as $6 an hour cheap laborer with a laptop he found somewhere.

    Or do you think that tom Kaplan is going to stick with EJF forever, like in a suicide pact and let himself and his wife Dafna Recanati and their kids have their names dragged through the mud every day as more and more papers and blogs add his name to their articles and editorials? Do you think that Kaplan needs to have the Tropper sex scandal and the disgraced EJF scheme on his record of failed "accomplishments"? If Kaplan was so proud of the EJF boondoggle, how come he doesn't make sure it got mentioned in the latest NY Times article? You do know what the NY Times is, don't you? Does it make sense that Kaplan wants people to know how he feeds his tortoise worms every Sunday but hides in shame that he has given tens of millions to Charedi rabbis the last four years? If it was you, would you talk about feeding worms to your pet or how you helped great rabbis?

    Bottom line, I stand by my analysis. Nobody normal is that suicidal and self-destructive to let themselves be pulled down to the bottom of the ocean where the sunken EJF=Tropper Titanic sits. It is the instinct of self-survival and self-preservation that has to have kicked in somewhere in Kaplan's and his wife Dafna Recanati's heads that once Leib and Leba Tropper' lurid mickey mouse antics blew up in their faces, that it automatically means that EJF is toxic and radioactive and that they must bail out like from a house on fire, a ship taking on water and a plane in a nosedive (take your pick, but the instinct of a healthy person is try to save themselves and flee from certain impending total doom).

    Oh, I get it, you never studied English and you never read an English book in your life, so you have no clue how the language works and uses idioms, images and metaphors. Sorry I can't help you with that, but you should stop using insults that only reveals your ignorance, bad manners and chutzpah. Grow up!

  57. orthodoxjew said...

    ben exactly were is my negius?

    i do not know you, so i could not have been referring to you.

  58. Eddie:

    You are correct, I wrongly used the words "not relevant" in relation to stories from Tanach.

    What I meant, and I should have phrased it better, is that we don't pasken directly from stories in Tanach, rather we pasken through the prism of two thousand years of Mishna, Gemorro, Geonim, Rishonim and Achronim, and that without this mesora it is impossible for us to correctly understand what seems obvious from a plain translation of the text, eg "an eye for an eye".

  59. Londoner, I agree with what you are saying - and i personally am not paskening at all. But we can learn ethics, ideas, morality and intent of the Torah from the Tenach. It isn't a redundant Book, has vkhalila - but it is relevant today, as we can see in this inyan.
    And with no disprespect to Chazal, we are in a way closer to the Tenach now, because of what is happening in the world, eg Kibbutz Galuot - Book of Ezra; Iran - Megillat Esther; Conversion crisis - Megillat Ruth. There is even a Nevua in Yirmiyahu that Gaza will be submerged by a tsunami!

  60. To recipients & Publicity..

    You are so ignorant of facts regarding Mr. Kaplan.. He knows who was behind the taping and leaking and who wants to destroy EJF+Tropperas well as himself! So stop analyzing and fantacising yourself with all your parts of a fictional novel! Why do you relish in a Jew's downfall and shame?? The Temple was destroyed due to needless hatred among our people!
    This gentile woman and guma have succeeded in creating a war within our people!
    Let our Creator deal with Troppers guilt! It is not up to any of us to make up stories,evaluate and judge. In addition, it is unhealthy to delve into this matter to the length that you have done! Go and busy yourself with acts of kindness and desist from slandering a jew and a whole organization! There is no purpose other than further destroying our nation!Hashem does not like one to enjoy anothers downfall..even more so a Jew.

  61. someone earlier posted, that tropper spoke with two sides from his mouth, to the gedolim he spoke about strengthening the geyrus versus the modern orth..
    to kaplan he spoke about furthering his dream of trying to convert as many intermarried couples as possible..
    this in itself is an easy way for the rosh yeshivas etc to get out of this mess, besides by just being silent, they can say we were fed the wrong propoganda, but now after research the truth has been revealed about the indivudual and the organization.
    shalom al yisroel, veyodeinu lo shofcho, thereby they removed themselves and the same time condemmed that which was injust.
    obviously they ghave a problem just condeming being that it might appear as implicating themselves with it, however this way they can have it both ways, and especially being that this is the truth, most attenddess and rosh yeshivas had no idea, and actually thought it was a fight against the m.o, but the truth was just the opposite a fullfilment of a kaplan dream to kasher intermarriage, something that he felt passionately about do to his owmn lifestyle.

  62. careful said:

    "Let our Creator deal with Troppers guilt!"

    Interesting. Imagine if the b'nei yisroel had said that about Amelek when he was attacking.

    First of all, Tropper still has a ton of money, which is a deadly weapon in his hands.

    Secondly, he hurt a lot of people and that needs to be dealt with. Call it justice or punishment. Don't call yourself good because you don't believe in justice. Perhaps some of that money can compensate them.

    Thirdly, the structure he assembled must be dismantled. An unholy conversion organization, an assembly of thieves and thugs, just as a start.

    After it's all settled, then we can finally sort out who is Jewish.

    It needs to be dealt with if we are to be whole again.

  63. The comment at 1:49 pm about Tropper's perverted sins affecting the atmosphere for the worse is an idea which I believe is discussed by the Alter fun Kelm in Daas Chochmo Umusser.

    Every time a disgusting incident gets public exposure, it certainly does make it easier for others to stumble and noch dem with all kinds of justifications.

    There were several court cases in recent years where defendants argued they could not be charged with perjury related to sexual affairs since the President himself, Bill Clinton, got away with it.

  64. >This is a famous question to which there are many answers - one is the Ramban that the prohibition was only in Israel<

    With all due respect, that sounds like a cop-out...

  65. I, for one, really enjoy the posts from 'Recipients and Publicity said...' They are humorous, truth-seeking, informative, and biting. Keep 'em coming!!

  66. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 14, 2010 at 7:29 AM

    More on Tom Kaplan's coming divorce from EJF, part ONE:

    Is poster "careful" issuing not-so-veiled threats, sure looks so, lets's look a little into what poster "careful" says:

    "careful said...To recipients & Publicity..You are so ignorant of facts regarding Mr. Kaplan.."

    RaP: The latest NY TImes puff piece was about Tom Kaplan, right? Or was it about another Tom Kaplan that has a similar bio? In that puff piece it noted, as the heading even said, that Tom Kaplan loves to feed his kid's pet tortoise "worms" every Sunday. In fact there was a photo of Tom Kaplan, sans any sign of Yiddishkeit, not even a beany-teeny-weeny-kippa, feeding a luscious worm to the thick-shelled crawler. But not a hint or mention of him literally feeding hundreds of rabbis through EJF by means of Tropper's tainted palms. This is a glaring omission that cannot be ignored by a serious reader and watcher of the EJF fiasco unfold. Panthera and the 92nd Street Y were mentioned but not a hint about EJF let alone Tropper who was/is Kaplan's spiritual guru, or is that wrong?

    "He knows who was behind the taping and leaking and who wants to destroy EJF+Tropperas well as himself!"

    EJF: Let's take this point by point. By now it's not "news" that Kaplan is at war with his nephew Guma Aguiar, it's been all over the papers for over a year by now. As for who taped and leaked the Shannon Orand-Tropper sexcapades, it's also moot by now because the damage has been done. Tropper was forced to resign in shame as the much-vaunted ubber-rabbi of EJF and his designated successor R EB Wachtfogel lasted a mere few days, and now it's just Dovid Jacobs and Chaim Bloom who deputize for Tropper and Wachtfogel. Finally it was Tropper himself who destroyed himself with his self-destructive behavior and attitude that was a ticking time bomb that eventually went off. Tropper self-destructed, don't blame it on anyone. As for EJF, it is self-understood that when the founder and captain of a program is revealed to be a misfit and a fraud that ergo his program is useless and must be shut down. Just like with Nixon, all his henchmen had to go as well as his administraion. That's what happens when a major personality is unmasked and revealed to be not what he projected himself to be.

    As for Tom Kaplam, he is fighting his nephew over money, but no one else wishes him harm. He is not Tropper and so far it seems that Tom Kaplan is a normal, compassionate and clever person who by his naivete fell victim to Tropper's clutches, but Kaplan remains a person in good standing who is untainted, and it is precisely because presumably he wants to retain that status and as a reflection of his normalcy that he will refuse to go down with Tropper and the sunken EJF Titanic that lies at the bottom of a moral morass.

    Tom Kaplan does not come across as the type of person who would hole himself up in a virtual "fuhrer bunker" and live in a paranoid delusional world. He can count and he can calculate: BADATS from the right, RCA from the left, London Bais Din from afar, now the Montreal rabbinate, add that to the MidWest rabbis like Rabbi Feurst and Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein who have slammed Tropper and EJF's demands, add to that bitter brew a daily barraage of negative reporting with the Jewish blogosphere running 100% against Tropper=EJF=Kaplan, it makes no sense for Kaplan to cling to the losers, but to cut his losses, and move on with his life. It will also make dealing with Guma much easier for him. Therefore his impending divorce from EJF is pending and may be very close. Why else would the rabbis take ads praising him as a non-Orthodox Jew if their was no threat of him walking away from them and cutting his losses. He is a busy man making tens of millions every day and he does not need all the headaches he's getting from dunked Tropper and doomed EJF now.

  67. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 14, 2010 at 7:30 AM

    More on Tom Kaplan's coming divorce from EJF, part TWO:

    "So stop analyzing and fantacising yourself with all your parts of a fictional novel!"

    RaP: Which part is "fiction" and "fantasy" by the way?

    "Why do you relish in a Jew's downfall and shame??"

    RaP: Which Jew? Tropper? He has brought it on himself. It is not a pleasant sight. As for Tom Kaplan, he has not had a downfall and it's unlikely that he wishes to be dragged down entirely by Leib and Leba Tropper's disgraceful and shameful unfrocking now revealed as pure charlatans. All the more reason that it is inevitable that Tom Kaplan and his lovely glamorous wife Dafna Recanati and their nice kids will want to be tarred and feathered by association with the disgraced Leib and Leba Tropper and will simply bail out from EJF and enjoy life at a more relaxing and normal pace as heads of fancy and exclusive 92nd Street Y and giving money to Panthera.

    "The Temple was destroyed due to needless hatred among our people!"

    RaP: Tell Troppper that. The First Temple was also destroyed because of sexual immorality...

    "This gentile woman and guma have succeeded in creating a war within our people!"

    RaP: Um, no, it was Tropper who rolled out the red carpets and welcomed Guma and his wife Jamie Aguiar into the ranks of the Torah world, with the open knowledge and blessings of R Reuven Feinstein who got lots of money from Guma. It was Tropper who set himself up as the conduit between Guma and Kaplan and the charedi rabbis they wished to give money too/bribe to further the EJF scheme.

    Don't blame Guma, he is a tinok shenishba who first fell into Tropper's trap through Kaplan himself and then saw through it all and dumped Tropper for other pastures. Jamie was converted by a bais din headed by Rabbi Herbert Bomzer after Tropper failed in his number one mission to sell her on the idea of an EJF "universal conversion" and maybe everyone owes her a big thanks for seeing through Tropper's chrade, standing up to him, taking a stand against the EJF scheme big time, who knows, and that is not nothing either. One needs to be careful with the facts and with what really happened.

    "Let our Creator deal with Troppers guilt!"

    RaP: Tell that to all the courts and batei din he is now going to face. Tell that to the court of public opinion that can decide for themselves what to make of the sex talk between Shannon Orand and Leib and Leba Tropper. Tell that to the Jewish blogosphere that cannot get enough of this scandal. Tell that to Tropper's spinmeisters and propaganda czar Menachem Lubinsky who are spending hundreds of thousands on wastefull DAMAGE CONTROL ads. Tell that to R Reuven Feinstein who is running around gathering useless signatures when the cat is out of the bag and the pigeons have flown the coup, (good mixed metaphors). Tell that to all the papers and news sites digging and reporting this ever expanding story. Tell that to the hundreds of disgusted rabbis and batei din represented through the BADATS, the RCA, the London Bais Din, the Montreal council of rabbis, the rabbis of Chicago and Detroit who have all come out against Tropper and EJF. This is a public matter and not a private family feud tucked away in the back pages somewhere. It effects ALL of Klal Yisrael and every member of Klal Yisrael aware of it must speaks up in whatever way.

  68. Recipients and PublicityJanuary 14, 2010 at 7:31 AM

    More on Tom Kaplan's coming divorce from EJF, part THREE:

    "It is not up to any of us to make up stories,evaluate and judge."

    RaP: No stories have been made up. Please point up any errors. Over the years it is now proven that it was Tropper and EJF that made up lots of unkosher stories.

    "In addition, it is unhealthy to delve into this matter to the length that you have done!"

    RaP: Why? Are you defending Tropper now?

    "Go and busy yourself with acts of kindness"

    RaP: It is an act of kindness to every Jew to warn them of the dangers of Tropper and his dangerous EJF scheme.

    "and desist from slandering a jew and a whole organization!"

    RaP: They have self-destructed in full public view and you wish to shoot the messenger. The organization, if one can even call EJF a normal organization, it's more like a mafia octopus, has lost all credibilty. Too bad. Blame yourself as an EJF spokesperson, not others.

    "There is no purpose other than further destroying our nation!"

    RaP: In this case it's pretty clear that Tropper and EJF inflicted ALL the damage on the Jewish nation!

    "Hashem does not like one to enjoy anothers downfall..even more so a Jew."

    RaP: Um, are you Hashem now? This is not enjoyable. Most bloggers and journalists are not being paid to follow this story, it just happens to be it cannot be avoided, like a piece of garbage that hits you between the eyes that can't be ignored. By the way, how much are you being paid to defend EJF and Tropper?


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