For Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner, celebrating the presidential inauguration by attending the gatherings on Friday night posed an obstacle to their Orthodox Jewish observance of the Sabbath.
Ms. Trump, President Trump’s older daughter, and Mr. Kushner got special permission to break from strict religious laws that prohibit them from using technology or mechanized devices, such as cars, during the Sabbath, which begins on Friday evening.
A Jewish person who was briefed on the matter but not authorized to speak publicly about it said on Friday night that they were given an exemption under the principle in Jewish law of pikuach nefesh, which suggests preserving the safety of a specific person over any religious consideration.
In the case of Mr. Kushner and Ms. Trump, that would have meant being outside security escorts once the Sabbath had started.[...]
There is a hidden or nistar interpretation to this. Look at the way Ivanka Trump has come to this position - a few years ago there was a giur by RHS, which received some criticism here. However she is now Halachically Jewish. She also happens to be the favourite daughter of the most powerful man in the world.
ReplyDeletewe are coming up to Purim soon, and just as Esther had the ear of the King to save the Jewish people, so does Ivanka. It is no surprise that her husband, Morderchai, oops, Jared, is the advisor tot he President.
Esther was also forced to do certain things which ordinarily would be yehareg v'lo yaavor
So there is a nistar going on, and there is a reason why Ivanka became Jewish - those few years ago nobody imagined her father would become President.
They couldn't provide security for them any where else?
ReplyDeleteJared and Ivanka went to Christian Church services on both Friday, before the inauguration, and on Shabbos, the day after the inauguration.
ReplyDeleteIvanka dresses prust, against Jewish law, and consistently has dressed as such ever since her purported conversion.
The couple attended several pruste "balls" on Shabbos. And, as noted, they were driven in cars on Shabbos.
Haskel Lookstein, the "rabbi" who conducted the purported conversion (which was NOT under the beis din or auspices of Rabbi Hershel Schachter as her supporters claim) was also condemned by his own RCA eight years ago when he attended a Christian Church service honoring Obama.
Who gave the shaky heter?
ReplyDeleteThis is truly sad, and belittles the Sabbath in the eyes of the non-Jews. Though srictly speaking they transgressed the rabbinic laws of amirat goy, and not shabbat melacha.
ReplyDeleteUnless the two of them are making public statements about the issue, I don't think it is anyone's business how observant they are. In addition, there are many halachic factors that must be considered in such a pesak, for one, not antagonizing the President of the United States by not showing up at his celebration.
ReplyDeleteMoe, you are right - they are not ultra-frum, they probably are not adhering 100% to the SA. Ivanka dresses relatively modestly- by relatively I mean compared to the secular society around her. length of dress is also a relative issue - in Israel the Hardal community wear very long dresses, down to the floor, yet they are criticised by the Haredim who wear mini-skirts (knee) and say that the Dati Leumi do not dress properly. So fashion/dress is just an ideological battleground.
ReplyDeleteRegarding church going, it is a halachic problem, and it depends on the type of church. As far as I understand Xtianity, the Catholics have statues of yashka, even though they claim to accept the 10 commandments. Then the Protestants - who are misnagdim to Catholicism said it is Avodah Zarah to make a statue of him (this is how it is in England). Nevertheless, we have problems, the Chief Rabbi here has to attend Chruch services , so sometimes he says it is mipnei darkei shalom; R' Sacks didnt enter church for Princess Diana's levoya, because he said on Shabbat you are not allowed to mourn. He walked, and did not get a car.
If you want a frum Jew in government, it is very difficult to keep halacha. On the other hand, the Gemara says that both Esther and Shimshon were forced to violate halacha, but Esther did not derive persona benefit whereas Shimshon did. So the Kushners could argue that a) they are forced to go to church because a) it is part of their job, b) family, c) would cause antisemitism if they started to boycott these things.
The more important question is which nusach did Jared daven ?
In response to this and to your other comment, comparing to Esther, please see the gemara Sanhedrin 74b, that if is was an issur, then Esther would not have been permitted to do it, but that it wasn't an issur. The halacha is that to violate any halacha in public, is yehareg v'al yaavor. Additionally, I have not yet heard any reasonable explanation as to why it was necessary for them to attend, and certainly not to violate any halacha.
ReplyDeleteAbout what you say about nistar, while I don't think anyone knows these things, so it's conjecture, but I think what you say is certainly a possibility. Time will tell.
I just found the following statement in the news.
ReplyDelete"His daughter Ivanka and her husband, senior White House adviser Jared Kushner, were seen snapping photos Saturday on the Truman balcony with a young girl who appeared to be their daughter."
So was that also pikuach nefesh?
Yehoshua, if you would see someone publicly shaming your father, and you would protest, because it would pain you, do you think it would be correct for someone to say that it isn't any of your business? We, as Torah Jews, who our loyal to our father in heaven, and are pained when his name is publicly desecrated, feel that it is absolutely our business. After all, our father is being publicly shamed, as these people were mechallel shaim shomayim berabim. But if someone has no heart for Hashem, then I suppose that it is none of his business. So which category to you belong to, Yehoshua?
ReplyDeleteComparing these low-lives to our forefathers is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself
ReplyDeleteUnless you being sarcastic, then I apologize
When Jews publicly trample Jewish law it is every Jew's business to protest that.
ReplyDeleteSo far we know that Jared and Ivanka:
ReplyDeletePublicly eat in non-kosher restaurants on multiple occasions.
She dresses in pruste immodest clothing in public.
They violate Shabbos, regardless of what excuses for that is put forth on their behalf.
Neither. Unlike you, I am not in the category of uninformed busybodies who have the hubris to criticize people while knowing absolutely nothing about their specific circumstances. Who is to say that they weren't issued a pesak allowing them to attend the events they attended? Have you ever heard of shlomo shel malchus? Riding in a car is certainly not a de'oraysa, and may even be muttar. Dancing at a ball certainly doesn't violate any of the melachos. If they were to claim on their own that they decided attending the events was maore important than keeping Shabbos, then they would be open to criticism. But as far as I can tell, they have not, and not one of the posters here has any idea if they asked a Rabbi, who that Rabbi might be, and what his pesak and the rationale for that pesak is. Absent all of that knowledge, it would behoove everyone to keep their mouths shut.
ReplyDeleteIvanka and Jared were spotted snapping photos Saturday morning on the Truman Balcony.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.heraldonline.com/entertainment/article127981639.html
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/leave-ivanka-trumps-judaism-alone/
ReplyDeleteAll reporting about and headlines about the Trumps seem to be aimed to make us laugh. (Whether on this site, or elsewhere.)
What's your point? - that Jared isn't a role model for us?
ReplyDeleteHer conversion seems to be accepted because she was misinformed about the halachos of tznius. As to the transgressions that happened (and may unfortunately keep happening) later, they seem to fall into transgressions that Hazkel would be proud of, which makes it misinformed again. Or, they're similar to talking durring chazaras hashatz - wrong, but it doesn't retroactivly invalidate a geirus.
Then when desiring marriage he purported to have her undergo a conversion as his mother didn't want him to be seen marrying a non-Jew.
She agreed to do it! The conversion did turn her life upside down. Do you not believe or recognize the huge difference between l'chatchilah and b'dieved? Is there no difference?
On there own, or they posed. While not right, there is still a world of difference.
ReplyDeleteThey are low lives why? Esther and Shimshon both intermarried.
ReplyDeleteNote, I have a tradition of starting Adar early, so yes a but of sarcasm also.
Haskel Lookstein
ReplyDeleteMoe,
Does a ger tzedek have to know all the halchos before they convert? I'm not asking l'chatichlah, I am asking the bottom line halacha b'dieved. They do not! They just need to have kabalas mitzvos, of which they will learn the details later. It is very possible, and probable, that her intention was sincere. The problem is, she got Haskel as her rabbi. How do you know that she did not make a sincere attempt to do all the mitzvos that she is aware of?
It is an issur to marry ahasueros , since he was a nochri. She was permitted because there was a greater plan going on. Similarly, was assur for shimshon to marry a plishty, they were akum. He did it as a military strategy.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the happy couple taking snapshots on shabbat, I have nothing to say. It's their freewill, perhaps they charged the phone before shabbat. It's not permitted by the shulchan aruch poskim, nothing to do with pikuah nefesh. There are coffee machines that you cannot use on shabbat, but they might have them in the white house.
Mr kushner is traditional but not halachic frum. We hope the president will be good for Jews and Israel. Nixon saved Israel even though he was antisemitic.
That he dates non Jew and later arranges a conversion is an issue halachically. Is your point about the conversion or about what they are doing today?
ReplyDeleteMany Israeli politicians were non frum.
Only menachem Begin would refrain from publicly violating shabbat.
The church service was multifaith. But when you daven in a Church, it's possible to forget hilchot shabbes.
ReplyDeleteCannot use pikuach nefesh for every aveira you do. That's ridiculous.
If a potential convert is told that all being Jewish requires is to eat a bagel and lox sandwich once a week and lighting two candles Friday night and nothing more. And she says easy enough, if that's all there's to being Jewish I wanna join so I can marry my Jewish boyfriend and still enjoy my favorite lobster and ham dinners and go to the casino Saturday afternoons.
ReplyDeleteSo she dunks in the mikva and is now halachicly undisputably Jewish since she sincerely thought she could eat lobster and gamble on Shabbos?
Who told you her conversion is accepted?
On their own they were snapping pictures of themselves on Shabbos.
ReplyDeleteIf you see a Jew eating lobster on Yom Kippur on the street in front of shul, are you going to not protest?
ReplyDeleteI'm aware of three hedyos being valid. But if the purported convert wasn't sincere in accepting all 613, the conversion isn't valid even if the beis din was constituted of three gedolei hador.
ReplyDeleteEsther was forced against her will to marry Achashveiros. She did not do so willingly.
ReplyDeleteWho, exactly, are low-lives? If you want to argue Donald is, then fine. Who else? Jared? Ivanka? No way.
ReplyDeleteEsther was forcibly raped by a tyrant. Repeatedly. For years. You call that intermarriage? She had it one of the worst lives of any of our forefathers.
ReplyDeleteShe literally sacrificed herself, both soul and body for her people. Who exactly are you comparing her to?
According to the article, they snapped photos. That means taking pictures.
ReplyDeleteEsther karka olam hi. Jared might have a heter hatarshoso. Being snapped is no different than entering a bldg with security cameras.
ReplyDeleteEvidence that she eats lobster?
ReplyDeleteEvidence please
ReplyDeleteBoth. Someone who doesn't agree to keep all 613, by definition, cannot have a valid conversion. Furthermore, converting for the purposes of marriage is supposed to be prevented. And someone who won't keep certain Jewish laws cannot be successfully converted.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I said. Shimshon also, but there were certain aspects he did wilfully. Do we know, BTW, whether shimshon was shomer mitzvos when he lived in Gaza?
ReplyDeleteYou obviously disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein - I have already posted his teshuva - I gather you didn't read it or you disagree with it
ReplyDeleteShe had the choice to die, Al kiddush Hashem. In any case , Mordechai tells her if not through you, then someone else. So there was nothing holy about her marriage, it could have been done by someone else.
ReplyDelete1) Which teshuva?
ReplyDelete2) Where'd you post it?
3) Which part of the comment disagrees with Rav Moshe?
4) Are there no other teshuvos/opinions by other poskim disagreeing with Rav Moshe on whichever issue you're referring to?
Moe , I understand where you are coming from. I'm not giving a heter to these people for anything. It's their own cheshbon. Some people are demonising the entire Trump Tower of Babel, and others are celebrating, as if he is Khoroush, who will rebuild the beis Hamikdash. Look at Henry Kissinger, who worked with many presidents. But he intermarried, and one historian said he told the Arabs to attack Israel on yom kippur. Kissinger is a rasha gamur, but at least Kushner has one foot in Torah Judaism.
ReplyDeleteThat was a hypothetical example not referring to anyone in particular. Nevertheless, she's been photographed by the media multiple times eating in non-kosher restaurants with Jared and her father.
ReplyDeleteThat was an example, not a case.
ReplyDeleteThere was lobster served at the Lunch http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4141184/President-Trump-Melania-meal.html
ReplyDeletebut that doesn't mean that the Kushners ate it. Here in UK, we have big functions with the queen or PM, and Rabbis are sometimes invited, but they have special kosher meals for them. In the US, Kosher is much bigger and more widespread than UK, so I assume that Kosher menu was available there.
But you're wrong. She did not assume that she may still eat traif. She did not assume that she doesn't have to keep Shabbos. In order for you to invalidate her conversion, you will have to do more than make snarky comments about bagels, gambling and lobsters.
ReplyDeleteThat's a report that does not have pictures, that is not coming from a source that is known for their precision in descriptions.
ReplyDeleteEddie I provided the source for you to see what it says there about Esther, not to make up your own ideas.
ReplyDeleteGo learn something instead of disparaging Esther.
ReplyDeleteGet a life
First of all, are you retracting you first statement? "Unless the two of them are making public statements about the issue, I don't think it is anyone's business how observant they are. In addition..."
ReplyDeleteSecond of all, so let's imagine someone shames your father, would this be your response? "Duh, I'm not bothered at all because maybe what I see isn't really what's happening, or, duh, maybe he has a heter, so I am perfectly fine and unbothered about my father's shame and insult." In other words, my question to is whether you truly are heartless and wouldn't care about anyone even your own father, or are you only heartless about Hashem and his Torah? So those of us who protest, guess what, we care. Is this concept completely alien to you?
Third of all, according to you, there is no such thing as a chilul Hashem berabim, because everybody will be required to twist their brains into self deception that nothing wrong was done. Would you make it appear to everyone in public that you are spitting at your father, claiming that it's fine because those close enough to tell saw that no spit came out? No, because when the public spectacle is desecration, that is in fact true desecration, regardless of technicalities. This should not need to be explained, but I think you have conditioned yourself not to care, and therefore you don't grasp the simple and obvious.
How do you know that did not get food delivered for them from somewhere else? When you're a Trump, you get to do certain things easier. Additionally, how do you that they ate meat? Most importantly, how do you that there was any intent to do this during the conversion?
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, are you retracting you first statement? "Unless the two of them are making public statements about the issue, I don't think it is anyone's business how observant they are. In addition..."
ReplyDeleteSecond of all, so let's imagine someone shames your father, would this be your response? " I'm not bothered at all because maybe what I see isn't really what's happening, or, maybe he has a heter, so I am perfectly fine and unbothered about my father's shame and insult." In other words, my question to is whether you truly are heartless and wouldn't care about anyone even your own father, or are you only heartless about Hashem and his Torah? So those of us who protest, guess what, we care. Is this concept completely alien to you?
Third of all, according to you, there is no such thing as a chilul Hashem berabim, because everybody will be required to twist their brains into self deception that nothing wrong was done. Would you make it appear to everyone in public that you are spitting at your father, claiming that it's fine because those close enough to tell saw that no spit came out? No, because when the public spectacle is desecration, that is in fact true desecration, regardless of technicalities. This should not need to be explained, but I think you have conditioned yourself not to care, and therefore you don't grasp the simple and obvious.
I have no idea what your hypothetical has to do with this circumstance, so I will not bother addressing it.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with them sitting in a non-kosher restaurant. The only issue is maris ayin. I am fairly sure that this would not be a problem here, as any onlooker knows that they are there to accompany her father, who is quite well known, and will not presume the food to be kosher.
ReplyDeleteRead this first
ReplyDeletehttp://jtf.org/forum/index.php?topic=38881.0,
then we talk. Nixon ordered an Airlift of C-130 Hercules in the midst of Yom Kippur war loaded to the hilt. One such Monster landed every half hour that was downloaded by a massive ground crew from the belly of the beast and shipped straight to the front. There was no time to even change labels. All planes of El Al have been recruited, gutted of the passenger seats, and shipped ammunition that were sooo desperately needed since the IDF was totally depleted. It was Kissinger that read of the list, and Nixon ordered to double it and ship it yesterday. Learn your History before you fire off.
Let the record show that many places throughout the country do order frozen food, chosem betoch chosem double packaged, and in Washington D.C. from the locals, it doesn't even have to be frozen. Al titen es picha lachti es besarcho, lomo yiktzof malach Elokim vachavol ma'assei yodecho.
ReplyDeleteThere are certain times of sha'at cherum, like when the meraglim ate in the border restaurant, and when klall Yisrael held war and there was "Ubotim mleim kol tuv = kotlei dechazirei. Even today there are special halachot for the eli Cohen's sheshtika yafeh lahem. They married locals, had children and later dealt with the issues. ve'ein ka'an makom leha'arich.
ReplyDelete1: I am not retracting anything. As I wrote in my second comment: "If they were to claim on their own that they decided attending the events was more important than keeping Shabbos, then they would be open to criticism."
ReplyDelete2: One can make a macha'a only when one is in possession of the facts. You are not in possession of the facts here.
3: See 2.
A convert does not have to know about 613. The Gemara in Yevamos states explicitly that a prospective convert is notified of מקצת מצוות. As long as they sincerely accept to perform what they will learn in the future (not knowing what that is) it doesn't matter how many mitzvos they know about at the time of the geirus.
ReplyDeletecorrect -
ReplyDeleteL'chatchila the Kushners cannot do this, because they are not forced to eat treif or violate shabbos. Or even be in politics.
I'm simply using the moshul, that they have the ear of the president, who himself ha said he will take care of Haman (iran). Obama, who the leftist Yidden loved, gave $100Bn to Iran, and allowed them to develop more weapons against Israel.
To put it another way - Hezbollah has missiles that can chas v'shalom reach Bnei Brak, and Obama was supporting that.
4) Rav Moshe is usually mainstream, but where others disagree with him, it doesnt make one an apikores to follow his psak. An example, is chalav Yisrael. No Chareidim today will have regular milk, but the London BD permits regular milk, chocolate etc. The problem being that you cannot call people apikorsim for relying on Rav Moshe.
ReplyDeleteThey've consistently and publicly trampled on halacha for years, including long before Trump's run. She hasn't dressed in accordance with halacha from day one. The eating in non-kosher establishments has been going on for years.
ReplyDeleteThey've been publicly eating in non-kosher restaurants for years. Long before Trump's run. And without Trump. As a couple for his birthday, etcetera.
ReplyDeleteAnd if it is clear that the purported convert did not commit to ever learning and keeping in the future whatever laws she isn't keeping now. And she violates laws from day one out of the mikva, consistently?
ReplyDeleteAnd if it is clear that the conversion is not out of sincerity of being Jewish but rather out of sincerity of marrying a Jew.
ReplyDeleteIt depends. If they are integrated into a modern Orthodox community, and more or less keep to the norms of that community, there is no indication that she didn't have the commitment to keep what was, according to her understanding, required of her.
ReplyDeleteEating what? And once again, there are many Jews who are not fully observant. What is your point?
ReplyDeletethat is only l'chatchila
ReplyDeleteMany Jews are not fully observant, true. But to become Jewish, when one currently isn't Jewish, one must commit to being fully observant.
ReplyDeleteIf what you describe as a Modern Orthodox community and its norms are less than fully observant of Jewish law, then a non-Jew committing to only keeping that level of observance, which is incomplete, is insufficient to make the conversion valid.
ReplyDeleteWhat if a potential convert was told she could drive on Shabbos and eat lobster (a hypothetical example), and based on that agreed to be Jewish on that understanding. You'd argue the conversion is valid despite her immediate violating Shabbos and kashrus? How's that any different than a Conservative conversion?
ReplyDeleteI haven't said otherwise and agree with your comment.
ReplyDeleteViolate Shabbos, violate kashrus, violate tznius and violate avoda zora. And those are just some of the examples of what they publicly violated over a number of years in public view.
ReplyDeleteAn example? You cannot give an example of a false statement. It is like saying they sell shaatnez at Moe Ginzburg Stores, , and when you refute it , i say it was an example.
ReplyDeleteThe Kushners are no different than many of the Modern Orthodox who frequent Lookstein's synagogue. She dresses the same way as most of the women and their Shabbos activities are actually a bit more frum than many there. .
ReplyDeleteYou don't know that. Unfortunately her manner of dress is consistent with the Modern Orthodox she affiliates with. And also unfortunately many Modern Orthodox will eat in traif restaurants what they believe to be ok. In some cases it actually is halachically permitted (thinly) so unless you know specifics be careful because what you are saying is close to being lashon hara.
ReplyDeleteShe hasn't dressed in accordance with halacha from day one.
ReplyDeleteIn her community, they think that the balances of genius is a "right wing" chumra. Our blog owner himself fell into publishing an article that seeks diminish the importance of genius, and to have us accept certain issurim.
The eating in non-kosher establishments has been going on for years.
I was wondering if that was the case. They have been very public figures for a while - do you have any links to gossip sites that they did this?
Paras declared a gzeiras Kloyo Chas veShalom on Am Yisrael! They send their mashchisim umechablim all over the world. The recent waves singled out Jews trampling them to death beYisroel ubeGolah, vedomim bedomim nogu RL. Hashem picked our new President Yorum hodo, for the sake of Am Yisrael yet on Rosh HaShanah, having picked an Esther and a Mordechai team as Yoatzei haMelech to save us mizera Amalek. Umi yodea im la'es kazos higiu lamalchus. Rabbi Hier was the Shliach to deliver us the bessura of * Im eshkochech Yerushalayim, tishkach yemini*. Omen! Am Yisrael is Eternal and Yerushalayim is Eternally ours. Am Yisrael chai, veNetzach Yisrael lo yeshaker! May hashem hold his right hand over us forever and ever. Omen!
ReplyDeleteHer manner of dress she's been seen in public is far far worse then even what any Modern Orthodox rabbi would dare say is permissible. Much worse.
ReplyDeleteAnd if some Modern Orthodox eat in treif restaurants or do whatever other activities in violation of Jewish law, that does not in any way make it acceptable for a potential convert to convert under the pretenses that they can convert and only keep Jewish law to the extent the MO community they want to join is keeping it. For the conversion to be valid, they must commit to fully keeping Jewish law even if the community they're intending to join doesn't fully maintain Jewish law in all regards.
There's been multiple reports and photographs in the press going back almost as long as they're married of them eating out in non-kosher restaurants on Jared's birthday and on other occasions. They're still available to find if you search for them.
ReplyDeleteIf the community of a potential convert fails to fully maintain Jewish laws in certain regards, the potential convert is still required to commit to fully maintain all Jewish laws, even one's her future community is negligent in, in order for the conversion to be valid.
Her manner of dress she's been seen in public is far far worse then even what any Modern Orthodox rabbi would dare say is permissible.
ReplyDeleteReally? Micheal Broyde permits not covering the hair. As to everything else: has Haskel Lookstein, or most similar rabbis, ever told his congregants what is permissible and what is prohibited?
For the conversion to be valid, they must commit to fully keeping Jewish law even if the community they're intending to join doesn't fully maintain Jewish law in all regards.
Rabbi Ginsburg,
Can you please provide sources for your assertions? Additionally, please mention the legitimate and well-known poskim who disagree with your psak. Thank you Rabbi Ginsburg
There's been multiple reports and photographs in the press ......They're still available to find if you search for them.
ReplyDeleteKindly provide me with the links. Please be mekarev your claims הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדותו
You have a problem doing that today, and also remember what the Chazon Ish says about how the metzius is different now that only a minority are frum and we live in modern society.
ReplyDeletethey had to snap photos on Shabbat morning, it was pikuach nefesh. They couldn't wait till Sunday. (sarcasm).
ReplyDeletethere is another interpretation to this - and it is simple-
ReplyDeletethey may well have started out being frum L'Shem Shamayim, and she may have converted with the right intentions. But power corrupts, and stolen waters are sweet. Suddenly moving from being billionaires to being the most powerful people in the world can feed an ego so much, that you lose control. That may well be what is happening.
http://libibamizrach.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-miracle-that-is-ivanka-trump.html
ReplyDeleteYou truly need to be a Posek to know all the minute details what is allowed on such missions of Hatzala's acheinu bnei Yisrael. You have Hatzala volunteers that are taught various details of hilchot Shabbos how far you can go on various cases. R' Meir baal Akdomis according to the legend, he did what he needed to do in hatzola of a Tzibur. In sending eidim for Kiddush Hachodesh, many comforts are mutar for the shlichim, same goes for a Yoledes. When taking a choleh, we are matir the baal hoagala to come back on Shabbos, taking into consideration that otherwise you won't find anybody to travel forth. We are in a situation of anhilation from sonei Yisrael, as we have seen in France, Ausie, USA, Germany and where not. These Mordechai veEsthers are the hand picked Yosef's mishne lamelechs for Klall Yisrael. The world can go into turmoil in a blink of an eye and the Kushner's are there to doresh tov leamo at moments notice. Even Mordechai was ratzui *lerov* echov only, and we cannot be choosy. They do have security issues and putting their lives at risk, I would like to believe that they discussed this with their Rabbis and got their blessing. We should be grateful for what they do for us, they are 'gut for Yidden'. Nobody came up seeing them eating shkotsim uremossim. The orthodox Nobel prize winners all managed to get yayin mevushal.
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned already, Nebuchadnetzar had a wine taster called Hatarshoso. Chaz"al say that his name stems from getting a unique heter from the Chachomim to drink from yayin nesech, therefore his name *Heter Shoso*. These halachot are not readily found, but those qualified can be massik shma'atesse alibe dehilchoso in dire situations lefi Hoiro'os sha'a dynamically, ve'ein bodkin min hamizbeach ulemalo! May they be medabrana deamesei and shlichei amcho beis Yisrael behatzlacha. Omen
She's been publicly violating Jewish long before her father ran in the election.
ReplyDeleteThanks!
ReplyDeleteIt's a davar pashut. Try showing any source that if a perspective convert converts under the understanding that eating meat and milk together is okay (and it is only a chumra to avoid it) and that driving to the MO shul is okay (but it's a nice chumra to walk) and that davening in an interfaith service is a mitzvah, and converts with that understanding and immediately eats milk and meat like the amaratzim in the MO community he joined does and drives to the MO shul on Shabbos like the other community members, that the conversion is valid.
ReplyDeleteMO rabbis don't tell people what is not permissible except when it is in their own interests. I have had way too much experience dealing with MO charlatans like the one in DC who turned out to be a voyeur and the one in Las Vegas who is a moser so I know what they are like. The Kushners are tinokot shel nishbah or at least Yael is. I am sure she truly believes that her manner of dress and other actions are within the parameters of liberal Modern Orthodoxy. They are now attending Rabbi Shemtov's shul. I know him and several people there. If you see Ivanka now dressing tznius and not seen in restaurants with her father's family would you still think she would need to redo her geirus?
ReplyDeleteI think he was trying to make a point how far they are from the level of Mordechai and Esther.
ReplyDeleteBut you don't know what information was given at the time of the conversion, this is speculation. Many people become frum and then revert , same goes with converts. If she kept a reasonable amount of halacha, initially, the conversion is valid. Today , it is irrelevant what she keeps. This was the basis of the arguments made by Rav Elyashiv, and Rav Yosef on the controversy with R Goren in the Langer case. She is more frum than Mr Borokovsky in that case.
ReplyDeleteRead The Siege by Conor Cruise O'Brien. BTW, Moshe Dayan and Golda Meir were also negligent, at best.
ReplyDeleteEven if she reverts to xtianity, she is like any other Jewish apostate. Going to a church is not avodah Zarah, especially a protestant church, who hold it is assur to make a statue of him. I think in the time of rishonim, the churches prayed to the statue. Martin Luther (white one) was a misnagid of Catholics and avodah Zarah. Not saying he liked Jews.
ReplyDeleteWhile Broyde was a rabbi her conversion was valid even though she didn't cover her hair. Now that he's been de-rabbied the conversion isn't good anymore ;)
ReplyDeleteShe trampled over halacha from day one. This was most obvious by her vulgar dress. Including at her wedding which occurred very shortly after the conversion process.
ReplyDeleteIn the Langer case the first husband was not only frum in the beginning, he was frum his entire life after converting! Mr. Goren lied about the first husband in order to fulfill his campaign promise while running his political campaign to win the office of chief rabbi that he will make the mamzeirim into non-illegitimates.
She hasn't followed halacha from day one.
ReplyDeleteAnd going to church, including Protestant ones, most certainly is AZ.
correction. She hasn't fulfilled all the requirements of halacha. However she clearly has followed halacha from day one
ReplyDeleteKindly speak facts and leave out the hypothetical. Again, הרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדותו. When you choose to speak about a specific person, and you choose to challenge her personal status, it is absurd to challenge her Jewishness with hypothetics. You have to stick to the facts, and only the facts. That you have chosen to challenge her Jewishness, several times, with a bunch of hypothetics certainly proves your arguments to be invalid.
ReplyDeleteHere's the quote of the day: Arguments that are based upon hypothetical scenarios, are only valid for hypothetical situations.
She trampled over halacha from day one.
ReplyDeleteWho informed her of the halacha? Do you lack the ability to see the difference between a person who purposely violates and "tramples" over halacha and a person who was never properly made aware of the halacha??
Durring Shlomo Hamelech's reign, were converts accepted? What was the accepted halacha? The halacha was that they were not accepted. However, hedyotim did violate this, and their conversion was valid. There's a very fine line as to when a "beis din" or "rabbi" who violates halacha can still be involved in a valid conversion. You have not quoted sources! In fact, you have chosen to quote more hypothetical violations than actual violations of halacha. Sorry Rabbi Ginsburg, your arguments just won't do.
Here's another quote of the day: In an anonymous forum, only sourced assertions carry any weight.
It's a davar pashut.
ReplyDeleteSorry, you do not have the ability to anonymously challenge a person's halachic status with your shikul hadas. I am shocked that you would try to issue anonymously issue a psak by stating that to you it appears to be this way, without citing a single source.
BTW, if you are running all over Facebook and other venues to "authoritatively" assert your assumptions as halacha, the you are trampling over halacha and G-d's Torah!
If a perspective convert converts under the understanding that eating meat and milk together is okay
Did that happen in this case?
and that driving to the MO shul [on Shabbos] is okay
Did that happen in this case?
and that davening in an interfaith service is a mitzvah
Did that happen in this case?
(How do you know that they "prayed" on Shabbos in that place, and didn't just attend as fashion accessories? Besides, how do you know that they had any intention of doing this during their conversion. Had Hazkel Lookstein not attended a previous one, it is quite probable that the Kushners would also not. But they had precedent from their rabbi, as well as his "psak".)
Moe, chazor boch!
You obviously have not been at too many MO weddings. I have a cousin who at the the time had a far worse wedding dress than Ivanka's.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you not consider her Jewish at all or is she a Jew who does not understand what Halacha requires?
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-style/pictures/best-celebrity-wedding-dresses-2014249/40992
ReplyDeleteThere is the wedding dress of Mrs Kushner. That may well be "vulgar" in Meah Shearim terms, but in the modern , secular or traditional Jewish world it is quite conservative.
Langer - we've had this discussion many times, I'm not the kind of cow who chews his cud , more than necessary.
It depends what someone goes there for. If someone does not pray to Yashke's statue, or imagined Yashke, it is not AZ. If they dont pray at all, but just go to accompany their parents, it is not AZ. Remember, the mishnah defines AZ, so for example, the tradition of throwing stones at Merculis is AZ, but throwing stones at another idol is not AZ. So even if someone davens Shahcharis in a Church, it is not AZ, unless they follow the precise AZology of praying to the statue.
ReplyDeleteMOe, in all this discussion, I'm not attacking you, and you are correct to require highest halachic standards - I'm just trying to dan b'kaf zchut. However in the Mr Borokovsky case, he was never frum, ate treif etc, and was unable to complete Shema. he went to shul. His Jewish son had a barmitzvah. It was not claimed by Hareidi Dayanim that he was shomer halacha, rather that hsi conversionw as valid, even if he returned to being non practicing. Thsi was Rav Ovadiah Yosef's position, who was one of the Dayanim who say with rav Elyashiv and Rav Yisraeli all ztl.
ReplyDeleteThat isn't true. He was halachicly observant and frum from the time of his conversion until his passing away. This was known by Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadia, et al. The idea he didn't know Shma was invented by R. Goren's supporters long after the fact.
ReplyDeleteIt is strictly and strongly forbidden by halacha for any Jew to enter any church's sanctuary. To even simply walk in (and do nothing else) when there's NO church services occurring is strongly forbidden.
ReplyDeleteThis is the brother of Kushner, with his Jewish born wife
ReplyDeletehttp://www.timesofisrael.com/who-is-jared-kushners-brother-and-could-his-2-7-billion-company-fail-under-trump/
When a ger is more "frum" than the Jewish born sister in law, then it is significant.
The Kushners went to Orthodox day schools, that doesn't mean they are yeshiva frum. He went to Harvard and NYU, and was not in Yeshiva after the age of 18.
The signal you are sending is that only frum (yeshiva) people can intermarry with geirim! This is ridiculous. It is liek saying only frum people can get married, because non frum people will not keep halacha or raise their kids frum.
This is a balanced article on the matter. http://traditionarchive.org/news/article.cfm?id=103975
ReplyDeleteThe Chazon Ish is cited as saying that being publicly "frum", observant and acting jewish for 30 days after a giur is enough to validate the giur.
The case was not a simple case of mamzerut, conversion or anything else. It was a battle between a radical Rav who had just boosted his own ego and sense of historical importance after the 6 day war, and wanted to rule the Rabbanut in his new messianic way. He overturned the BD of 3 major gedolim, and was seen by the establishment as having too much negius to the Zionist government.
Furthermore, he was trying to kill or 4 birds with one stone: permit a marriage; nullify mamzerut; nullify a giur; and change the halachic status quo. That is the larger reason why his actions were so controversial, rather than the invalidation of a questionable giur.
Israel had both hands tied behind their backs. US kept on saying the Egyptian army is only doing a military exercise and should sit in tight, or else thay would drop their support for Israel. When Egypt crossed the Canal and marched deep inside Sinai, and the Syrian forces were marching across the Golan, only then were they able to call for full mobilization and Israel was threatened with annihilation. In midst of the fast of Yom Kippur. Golda Meir told the US, at the rate things are going, we have no choice but to activate The Samson option. The rest is History. Bottom line, netzach Yirael lo yeshaker.
ReplyDeleteGeirus is a special and intricate situation. One cannot become a valid Ger without sincerely accepting the commitment to keep all 613.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli rabbinate is going to simplify the process of recognizing converts, allegedly thanks to the Trump family.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4913277,00.html
http://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
ReplyDelete.
Here's an example:
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
Here's one:
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
Here:
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
In addition to the non-kosher eating posted earlier in the comments, this is from today's New York Times (read the full article for descriptions of where Kushner's eating):
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/politics/with-trump-in-town-washington-restaurants-await-a-visit-from-ivanka.html
Why is this any of your business? Why do you keep raising the issue of the level of observance of two Jews?
ReplyDeleteHe is sinning publicly/bfarhesya. It is proper to publicly condemn this.
ReplyDeleteAnother story today about their public casual treif eating restaurant ways, this time from the Washington Post:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2017/02/01/jared-and-ivanka-turned-down-a-free-dinner-on-date-night-could-they-have-taken-it/?utm_term=.8d187d75812e
There are millions of Jews sinning befarhesya. Do you want to post comments about each one?
ReplyDeleteHe is especially public with his high position, and every time he sins it is widely reported - alongside describing him as "Orthodox", to give the impression that whatever wrong he does must be Orthodoxly-approved. And then your have all the folks defending his public sins by speculating he must've gotten a "heter" to sin, every time he sticks another shtick chazer in his mouth or every time he is Mechallel Shabbos bfarhesya.
ReplyDeleteVery few other sinners have their sins broadcast as widely. When people dismiss his public sinning as being okay, it is especially necessary to call them out.
Lets see:
ReplyDeleteDeviled eggs.
Smoked salmon and bagels.
The article explicitly says that they keep kosher. These are the only two items that it says that they ate. B'deovid, is this considered tarfus? What is your point?
Ooops. No, he isn't, as the article says it was deviled eggs in one place, and smoked salmon with a bagel in another. Is that traif b'deovid? It may not be proper and acceptable, but it doesn't warrant your comments. Actually, your comments are sinning publicly. And if you are running all over secular and non-Jewish sites to post your accusations, there are no words for your own wrongdoing.
ReplyDelete"a completely ho hum meal" at a fancy place like that could very well have been within what Lookstein's clientele think is kosher. It's unfortunate but comes nowhere near the deliberate trampling of the Torah as an adulterous woman who has no problem signing her bigamous name to a dinner journal ad for a yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteDid you miss the earlier article I linked to below where "the pair nibbled on hamachi with uni, fluke with shellfish congee and s’mores"?
ReplyDeleteFrom the earlier article: "the pair nibbled on hamachi with uni, fluke with shellfish congee and s’mores."
ReplyDeleteC'mon, none of this is new. It's been going on for years. It all began after he dated a shiksa, got engaged to a shiksa, and because his mother didn't want him to marry a shiksa so he hired Lookstein to cook up a "conversion" to make his mother happy.
His wife is a Jew, and it is possibley an issur d'oraita to constantly remind of her non-jewish past, especially with terms like "shiksa".
ReplyDeleteIt is amusing how you think Jared's eating habits might tarnish the "Orthodox" Jewish image, but not concerned about how his close working relationsip with one of the most overtly immoral US presidents, will affect our image! The latter is potentially much more damaging and dangerous.
ReplyDeleteYou might like this article:
http://forward.com/opinion/361826/how-could-modern-orthodox-judaism-produce-jared-kushner/
You're assuming validity to Lookstein's magic wand.
ReplyDeleteno magic wand as I have repeated pointed out - Rav Moshe Feinstein is sufficient to establish that she is Jewish
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe mentions that if the sincerity to uphold the 613 was lacking at the time of immersion, that this lack of sincerity can later be ascertained to deem the conversion to have been ineffective.
ReplyDeletebut that isn't relevant in the present case. It is clear that in the present case Rav Moshe Feinstein would say that she is a valid convert
ReplyDeleteIt appears relevant to me. Why do you feel that it isn't relevant?
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Feinstein says that if there was intent to live like other Jews and that observance of mitzvos took place - even if incomplete - then the conversion is good. If on the other hand it is clear that there was not intention for mitzvos and in fact mitzvos such as Shabbos were not observed on a regular basis - then the conversion is no good.
ReplyDeletewhy is it so difficult to you to understand this?
We're disagreeing about the metzius of her actions and intentions, not about the halacha.
ReplyDeleteAs I said based on the known facts - Rav Moshe Feinstein would say she is a valid convert.
ReplyDeleteYou're assuming Rav Moshe would view the facts the same way you are.
ReplyDeleteThe publically available information suggests that she whent through the conversion process (the miqveh) with rabbis from the RCA. R. Lookstein was only her teacher. She is JEwish according to halacha. And even if you have a doubt - safek d'oraita lhumra i.e. you cannot insult her.
ReplyDeleteobviously
ReplyDeleteIt seems that everyone's missing it. Intentionally I believe
ReplyDeleteWhy are playing games? Just post the link here. That is, if you can.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know that you trust the lefty Washington Post?
ReplyDeleteLook in the comments here. I already posted the link, exactly, five times in five seperate comments.
ReplyDeleteAgain, one who wants to lie will distance his proof. The articles I read did not mention actual treif. It would be a lot easier and quicker to just post the article here, instead of claiming that you posted it five times
ReplyDeletehttp://pagesix.com/2012/01/12/private-b-day/
ReplyDeleteMoe I don't see how this can be considered valid eidus for anything
ReplyDeleteRDE, And their driving to on Shabbos and attending church services in the church sanctuary for prayers to Jesus *can* be considered valid eidus for anything? True it was all done on national television for all to see, but there was not two Shomer Shabbos Yidden who were eyewitnesses to them going to church.
ReplyDeletesorry that is not the basis for invalidating geirus - especially since they claimed to have a rabbinic heter. You might not like the heter but the one to attack is the rabbi who gave it not the couple that acted on it
ReplyDeleteThey never claimed to have a heter. Certainly not for going to church during prayers to Jesus. And not for driving on Shabbos either. The guy in Israel who fancies himself as the head of GOP Israel is the only source for the news articles purporting there was an anonymous heter for the driving only.
ReplyDeleteand you have no evidence to the contrary
ReplyDeleteIf they never even claimed to have a heter in the first place, there's nothing to the contrary to even look for.
ReplyDeleteMoe you are simply fishing. At this point she is Jewish whether she sins or not. He is Jewish whether he sins or not.
ReplyDeleteTrying to establish that they are not perfect Jews and that they are as observant as their community - doesn't really mean anything.
Moe, it doesnt say what they ate there - was is a vegetarian salad? with tuna fish? And cold?
ReplyDeleteso technically speaking, they can get away with most or all of halachot -
Even akum these days are often vegetarian or vegan. Vegan is even more machmir than vegetarian, they will not have milk or fish, or eggs. So eating in a non kosher restaurant doesnt mean they are eating treif meat.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/224632
ReplyDeletehere is another side to the story-
remember, Rav Elyashiv's BD relied on the testimony of the Gabbai that Mr Borokovsky went to Shul.
I don't know that story intimately, so I'm not going to argue with it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, miss trump manages her own Instagram account, and the New York Post regularly describes her lunch menus to the public.
Going to a synagogue some mornings doesn't change that.
when I was a teenager, I worked in a Kosher deli on Sunday mornings, and once an Irishman bought a pack of kosher salt beef, and was then complaining why a pack of bacon was so expensive.
ReplyDeleteSo it is quite possible for passers by to assume someone is eating something treif, when in fact it might not be. I am not talking about bishul akum or taareivos, which is halacha - but many middle of the road persons are either unaware or consider it to be "only" a chumra for frum people.
BUt there is a difference between say tuna fish, and actual lobster salad etc.
Finally, it is only the BD that converted her that can make decisions about whether she has regressed.
wherever you stand, politics always mixes up with giur.
let me ask you a question -
ReplyDeletehe may be "orthodox", but he is clean shaven, no public head covering, and looks like any other American. He doesnt look like a Chossid. So people dont associate him with a Chosid. There was a guy called Joe Lieberman, also Orthodox, and he wanted to be President or VP, and said beforehand he would work on Shabbes, because it is pikuach nefesh in that job. Were you attacking him as well in the same way?
I think this has more to do with R Lookstein, than anything else. Since you dont consider him orthodox enough, then you are picking faults with his products, even the boy who was born Jewish.
it's always about a personality. R Goren also - it was his personality, not his halacha, which was the root cause of the problem.
I think there is a problem with religiosity, in that we can always look down on people who are not frum enough, and it makes us feel holier and worthier, because we keep x,y, and z more.
Not really, the Talmud says they will hate us whatever we do. Bannon is safek an anti-semite anyway. Trump has a largely white/right wing constituency, and they view the Jews as being liberal left anyway.
ReplyDeleteFYI, the Iranian extremists call Saudi Arabia "Yahudi Arabia" because they are more friendly towards Israel.
that si the level of insanity of the world.
I absolutely was critical of Joe Lieberman and his chillul Shabbos, support of homosexuals, etc.
ReplyDeleteNothing to do with personality. Not with Lieberman, Lookstein, Goren or Kushner.
Later on, this happened:
ReplyDeleteBut: "presidential advisor,Jason Greenblatt, an Orthodox Jew, arrived before Shabbat and did not take part in meetings on Saturday." That's what we do.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/229929
Moe, ICYMI:
ReplyDeleteBut: "presidential advisor,Jason Greenblatt, an Orthodox Jew, arrived before Shabbat and did not take part in meetings on Saturday." That's what we do.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/229929