Tuesday, June 28, 2016

Esti Weinstein - formerly religious Gerrer chasid - commits suicide because of the loss of her daughters she abandoned

Arutz 7   As ever more reactions pour in throughout the haredi world in the wake of the suicide of Esti Weinstein--who was found dead in her car in Ashdod after a week-long search--in a tragedy that has garnered much attention in the wider Israeli public due to its backstory, a more important perspective, that of Weinstein's estranged children, has now been offered.

Weinstein left the Gerrer hassidic community and religious observance several years ago, leading to a complete break of contact with 6 of her 7 daughters, in an estrangement allegedly enforced by Gerrer community leaders.

The late mother left a note and a will on her computer, explaining that the cause of her decision to commit suicide was the estrangement from her children. She also left a book detailing her entire life story in which she makes severe allegations against Gerrer leaders and norms, and asked that it be disseminated in every way possible, mentioning in the will that she wants "as many "Dossim" [slang term for religious or haredi people] to read it." [...]

The husband of one of Weinstein's daughters had the following to say: "You can't blame little girls who get angry at their mother in this kind of situation. It's a normal thing, a human story, something that happens the world over. I don't think it's anything that should be brought in support of any one side's agenda."

In response to the question of whether the daughters broke off contact with their mother for religious reasons, the son-in-law said that "they broke off contact because of this unsolved mystery: a mother who abandons her children. It's very possible she had right on her side, it's very possible that no one was right here, the bottom line is you can't blame the angry reaction of daughters abandoned by their mother."

Ben-Chaim also published a eulogy written by one of the daughters:

"Mother, we will remember and never forget the years in which you raised us. We well always remember the way you walked with us glowing with pride, seven amazing girls."

"We will remember and never forget the sudden, bitter day when you abandoned us. We begged for explanations, we asked to come with you, but you turned your back on our feelings. Little girls who were just abandoned one day and have no mother to explain things to them and pick up the pieces."

"Mother, mother, we will always remember and not forget. I understand there are things we couldn't take back, but now you can watch us from above, listen, and understand everything that the people around us didn't. But the most important thing is that you forgive us now."


  1. Didn't know about his case up to now, but noticed that the daughters ask for forgiveness (guilt?) while stating they will 'never forget'.
    If the daughters never receive therapy, who knows what the future reserves for them...

  2. Congratulations on getting the headline right. I think you're the only one.
    Mom left her daughters, not the other way around.

  3. tragic story - reported from her side - http://www.timesofisrael.com/before-suicide-woman-penned-book-about-her-ordeals-in-ultra-orthodox-world/ shows that the takanos of Gur concerning intimacy are not always a good fit for a couple's shalom bayis. also we see how important bein adam le'chavero is for a afith and belief in Hashem

  4. difficult to come to any conclusions based on the testimony of this woman who apparently had psychiatric issues.

  5. They don't deserve the guilt.
    She obviously has psychiatric issues, no normal mother does that EVEN IF SHE'S RIGHT

  6. agreed, but imho we need to take her words seriously to get her perspective , her side of the story

  7. But now, with the suicide, the problem goes beyond her being right or wrong... a suicide in a family has devastating effects on the survivors, even when the suicide is not caused by family issues.

    If she indeed had psychiatric issues, who knows some of her daughters inherited it... another reason for therapy.

  8. her words need a context - which is lacking in the media accounts. It is being presented as a woman finds truth and rejects archaic religion and moves in with her lover. Fights the good fight to help others abandon absurd religious believes. In retaliation community prevents her from having contact with children and as a result she commits suicide.

    That is not an accurate picture of what happened

  9. Corrected and updated and moved to the current and Correct spot. TY

    reminds us of Chana veshiva boneho 'dying' for her children

    Blaming the victim has additional consequences. As a direct result, many commit suicide from the pain of losing a lifelong support of family and friends including at times their own flesh and blood, their children. Just happened this week, a distraught Yidishe tayere neshomo from a choshive mishpacha was found in her car lifeless by putting an end to her unbearable pain and misery. In her will, she pointed fingers at some rabbi without disclosing details. She also wanted the Dusim (religious) to read her Parsha plight of her life so that they should know and learn from it.

    When you take revenge on the victims and isolate them as a punishment * Just because you can *, it can end up in suicide and the Av Harachman bochen kloyos volev knows who is to blame. My heart bleeds for all these victims that end up like that or even if they still breathe but with great pain kol od nishmosom bam. This must also be addressed, and not be swept under the rug. Their hands drip from the blood of the victims from beneath the earth where they made a Kisui haDam and scream ad lev haShamayim ZECHOR na veal tishkach! Rachmana litslan, they should be modeh umisvadeh yadeinu shofcho es hadam hazeh. Oy vey Gevald, aval asheimim anachnu al achinu veal achoseinu asher rainu tzoras nafsham behitchanenam elenu velo shamanu al ken bo'oh elenu hatzarah hazot.

    Mother Esti Zichrona Livracha is pleading and begging from us all on behalf of her and on behalf of all the children and all victims of "Just because they can", Eretz al na techassu es damam! Please do something.

    Worthwhile to note, she did ask for many Flowers at her levaya. Let our extended help for future cases of distraught yiddishe neshomos, young and old and pirchachim be those Prachim she asked as her last wishes.

    For those using OTD as an excuse, learn a lesson from non other than David haMelech. When his son Avshalom, after all what he did and rebelled against him, he commanded Yoav ben Tzruyoh, LE'AT LANA'AR! He then wailed and cried, Bni Bni Avshalom, Avshalom Bni Bni......How much more so in Mother Esti's case that all this was at no fault of her own. She had been railroaded to be put on the back burner from moment one and then only to be robbed of the most precious gifts in life, her own children R'L'. Only a parent knows that TZA'AR and AGMAS NEFESH bli metzorim that such can bring, ve'ein odom nitfas al tza'aro! May she be a 'Melitz Yosher' for all yiddishe Mothers and all yiddishe Kinderlach, yesh schar lepeulosech, veshou bonim ligvulam. AMEN

  10. Are they ever a good fit?

    I happened upon a letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe (I'm not a Lubavitcher) where a chosid wanted to practice something similar to the Gur takanos to break his taavos. He responded that it's not for today's generation and then asked the chosid to immediately respond with a report of his shalom bayis. The LR was a wise man in many ways.

  11. What will make things even worse is her book. Since she publicized a book and goodbye note that is critical of them, or their actions, it is something that can really cause them trouble. I hope that the insensitive reporters and "activists" will seek out another cause and allow these kids to heal.

  12. Daughters's spokesman (brother in law, probably per instruction of ger PR agent; yes, they have them, just now they see a more proper address for the PR)

  13. Are they ever a good fit?

    How many Gur couples do you know personally? Are you suggesting that most Gur couples are unhappy, unsatisfied or unfulfilled? You would need some evidence for this. The reality is that most of them are doing just fine.

    What is not appropriate for a 20th century Lubavitcher has no bearing as to what is appropriate for a Gur chosid.

  14. I would also like to add about Adele's song of "Piece by Piece" the so called Fat Lady posted here recently, one daughter quotes in her eulogy. In filling in the blanks from the Mother's side of the story I must be melamed zchut and give sanegoria in lieu of her absence. She had been pushed to the brink from ADAM, has been abandoned of normal relations of kederech kol ho'oretz left to deal with it on her own, in spite of the nafshah bisheilosah and kol Bakashot shebeolam throughout her short life unto deaf ears. See what R' Chayim Kanievsky wrote about this hanhagah. This with time snowballed so much so that she was forced to leave because of the situation that is not something explainable to your young children. This so called *Commendant* has no jurisdiction on her intimate life, haechad ba la*GUR* vayishpot shafot? Even if she had given her haskama for such derech lo derech, it is kemasneh al ma shekosuv batorah of POKOID YIFKOID! Who knows how much pressure she had been put up to resulting in a Kiddushin meusse. She cried nachal demaot, rivers of tears begging all she wants is a little warmth from her husband, but the Commendant would not permit. This is not what is called vochay bohen, velo shayamut bahen. In order to feel her pain, you must get into her heart and feel the clamping piercing fierce pain that she could no more bear. Yes, it was *she* that was abandoned, it was *she* that was left in broken and shattered of thousand and one pieces, and there was no one there for her to pick her up. It was she all by her lonely self against the world that turned against her. Raboisay, she did not die in vain, she left a precious message to all of us and the whole world to read, more so for Dussim. OTD does not happen on it's own, it is from REDIFUS isolating a NEFESH YEKORO BEYISRAEL al lo ovel bekapom left dying of a broken heart, and to top it all, robbing her of the young leinei einecho ve'ein loel yodecho! Lo sikach haem al habonim! If you don't believe me, put your ears to the ground in the childrens cemeteries, ushma kol demomo dako midomom shel TASHBAR menahemet keYona uboiche dmaot sholish, ubokass ad harakia vekisse hakavod, - vechi ma osisi lochem? Me choti umeh pishi ki dolaktem acharoy? Haloy hoROIDEF ashem al ki asher rodaftem oisi ad chormo. Vechi ma ya'asseh haben shelo yechto? You must put a stop to all these redifus, just so that the perpetrator could get off scott free. Who knows what kind of gzeiros chas veshalom this can bring on Klall Yisrael. umocho dimah meal kol panim, AMEN.

  15. Do you know the details of her case that you can go ahead and make such an accusatory rant? Where did you get your information from?
    Seems as if there was plenty of blame to be thrown around. I'm not sure why you are choosing to call one a victim over another.
    A) Parental alienation is always wrong.
    B) Being protective about children's spiritual and emotional health is always right.
    C) When these two clash, a proper arraignment and accommodation has to be worked out with cool and calm heads by caring third parties.

    A and B were an issue, and C was not done. However, it is completely wrong of you to blame anyone for C without proper knowledge of all the facts.

  16. "Are you suggesting that most Gur couples are unhappy, unsatisfied or unfulfilled?"

    An ex-gur, Sara Einfeld and some of them who were interviewed for an article in the Haarez say yes, they're unhappy. "Women hold themselves together thanks to the pride instilled in them for being part of a select unit. Look at the others, they are told - look at the secular, look at the Lithuanians: They are like cats."

    Found this on the same article, quoting R. Kamivsky " which he said mainly cause suffering to women." "It is known that a woman's main hope in her world is to have a husband who loves her ... but heaven forfend that he observe the measure of prishut, whereby he hurts his wife."

  17. Why did she run away from her family and abandon her children?

  18. I refered to the daughters eulogy, not the son in law words... it says "We will remember and never forget the sudden, bitter day when you abandoned us."

  19. Completely agree with you.

  20. It's no secret that Ger in Brooklyn has had major issues with their girls rejecting shidduchim with Gerrer bochurim b/c they are not happy with what they see in their homes.

  21. Because she wanted to be free of the Torah and adopt a non-religious lifestyle while her family didn't agree to go off the derech with her. So she left them and her children behind and went her own merry way.

  22. Probably written by brother in law. Assuming the daughters even spoke at the levaya. (Chassidim have a habit of not allowing women, even daughters to their own family's levayah. This case might have been different.)

  23. If the daughters never receive therapy,....or get the wrong therapist!

  24. Where is this known about Gerrer girls in Brooklyn? (I hadn't heard this.)

  25. this is not really called scientific sampling. If some women are disatisfied with their lives and then you asked them whether they are unhappy - it really says nothing meaningful about the population as a whole. Quoting Rav Chaim's view of marriage is not necessarily of help in understanding the Gerrer marriages.

    Is there actual data on the prevelance of unhappy Gerrer women as compared to other populations?

  26. I was completely unaware about this. The limited Gerer chasidim that I do know seem to have a beautiful, warm and caring relationship with their spouse.

  27. A half a picture is worth a thousand lies. Didn't the magid shiur of fakewood also leave town? Did he abandon of his own free will or was he driven out of town. Like in Sodom, it was his son that was molested, but the Gedoilim turned tables and accused the father of doing it himself. So much for their justification. This MO has been done time and again and still going strong. Did the last post write anything new, such as empowering the mandatory reporters to go directly to the police, or filibustering more of the same, so that after depositing the raglayim and the dovor, it dies right there on the operating table. Alma deshikra.

    This mother was given the TOIT and had her own children pitted against her, and abandomed them as much as the Yiddishe mothers that were led to the gas chambers R'L' abandoned their children. Read her will, read her book, read her complaints before she made an exit. Then let's listen to what the other side has to say. Who started this yerida in the marriage, who abandoned who, and if one thing led to other then who is responsible? You gotta play with a full deck of cards and disclose the rest of the story. And if she already tried once suicide and failed, it should have been a warning sign that she is in pain, fending for herself, she has been abandoned and no one is listening. All molested children that have taken an end tp their lives were blamed, he was OTD, never mentioning that all happened only after they were molested. Isn't the mesis umadiach responsible for coaxing people off the derech? Ka'asher yokum ish al re'ehu urtzocho nefesh, ken hadovor hazeh.

    As for the song she asked in her will to be played at her funeral, the fat lady Adele's song Piece by Piece would be very appropriate . Google up Esti's will and keep on surfing till you get the whole picture with the rest of the story. Reminds me of the story in cheder two kids were fighting, the Rebbe askes who started, so A says B started, then B says that A started when he retaliated afterwards, kappish.

  28. There's no reason to think that Einfeld represents a majority of Ger couples. (Or even a minority or even anyone other than herself)

  29. Do you have a link?

  30. Link please. Did she say that she was molested or assaulted?

  31. I'm sure most do. Nevertheless, it has been a significant issue. The girls are more out in the frum world than the bochurim. They see another way, and for some, what they've grown up with suffers by comparison.

    I first heard about this probably ten plus years ago. It could be that in Brooklyn they have dealt with it and made tikkunim of some kind. Also, Brooklyn is not EY. I'm sure circumstances are quite different there.

  32. I heard it years ago from people in the know, and then upon discussing with others, found it was reasonably well-known.

  33. How happy are the men? Sex is part of human nature. Of course, there are the select few of a high madreiga that are fit for prishus but they are few. Definitely not the Chassidish masses.

  34. same logic would apply comparing frum people with non frum or non-Jewish. With all the denial of sexuality until marriage frum Jews must be very unhappy - what should be done about this?

  35. Nice rant.
    You're still ignoring the fact that the mom left the children. Then then get angry that they stayed religious.
    The topping of the cake, is her suicide note placing the suicide squarely he her children.
    Either a cold b!itch or in need of serious psychological help.
    Either way, there's little to learn from her "story".
    In the world of truth she's begging for repentance.

  36. There's no actual data and probably there will never be one. I can't picture Gerrer chassidiahs talking about these matters. But if all Gur couples follow these strict rules, involving "commandants" to dictate their private lives with insane regulations, we don't need data to believe these women are either extremely conformed or just plain miserable.

    These regulations have absolutely nothing to do with Rebbetzin Abramov teachings on family purity.

  37. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/for-members-of-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-gur-sect-sex-is-a-sin-1.412153

  38. I've never been in Bnei Brak... but hopefuly I'll be there this summer to visit a friend and will ask her what this is all this about.

  39. You have lost track and you are now into Who is on First and Who is on second. To the Title of:
    Why do some blame rape victims while others blame the rapist?- Why do some people shoot the messenger and protect the transgressor?

    To which I responded that:
    "Blaming the victim has additional consequences. As a direct result, many commit suicide from the pain of losing a lifelong support of family and friends including at times their own flesh and blood, their children. Just happened this week, a distraught Yidishe tayere neshomo from a choshive mishpacha was found in her car lifeless by putting an end to her unbearable pain and misery."

    Since then, there is now a full report about that Suicide story, e.g.

    Esti Weinstein - formerly religious Gerrer chasid - commits suicide because of the loss of her daughters she abandoned

    I therefore upped my comment since it has full relevancy about what brings to suicide. The common denominator for squelching victims of molestation and turning tables and losing all close to them which brings them to the edge commiting suicide, is one and the same, end of story.

    This Fakewood story that I brought is in regards for the Title claiming that she abandoned her children, of which is true as much as the magid shiur abandoned fakewood of his own free will. We all know he was chased out of town!

    She never said she was molested and there is no link to it. I gave you all the links that I have to this story, you can choose and pick what you like and care to believe. Veidach zil ugmor.
    I rest my case

  40. Rant as much as you want, I gave all the links to Honesty. Believe whatever you want, couldn't care less. End of story

  41. Haaretz writes:

    Weinstein’s story is personal, delicate and complex, and evolved over many years. There is, therefore, no point in rushing to conclusions about why she committed suicide and to point accusing figures, as has been happening on social media, where there have been allegations that she may have been killed by someone in the Haredi community.

    Ehud, on the other hand, does rush to conclusions and does point accusing fingers despite not knowing the intricate details.
    Did you even read her book about Hadassah?
    What happened to her true romance that she said "I do" to willingly? Was that also Gur's fault?

    There is no doubt that the parental alienation had wrong aspects to it. It should have been worked out with a clear condition that she will not try to pry her kids and grandchildren away from their beliefs.

    Was she willing to go along with this at the beginning? I don't know.
    Was she willing to go along with this a bit later? Definitely!
    It should have been worked out! But to pin all the blame on one party and on a lack of romance is wrong. Dead wrong!
    (No pun intended.)

  42. You should read her will.
    She did not get angry that stayed religious.
    In fact, she felt certain that even if she does do teshuvah, her kids will still be angry at her.
    What can I say, I found myself understanding her curses at the third party who alienated her children from her.
    Yes, she needed psychological help. True. But she had real pain. Her children had, and have, real pain. Parental alienation is never acceptable. Yes, we cannot allow the children's eternity to be robbed from them. But, at a certain point, her ex and those can influence him, have full responsibility to bring them back together. They didn't want to! They won! Disgusting!

  43. What does that link prove ?
    Did you actually read the article Beyond the headline? who was sexually harassed?
    Either edit your slanderous comment, or prove it.

  44. The reason why the Brooklyn girls didn't want to get married to the ger boys has little to do with the taknos, and more to do with the fact that the Bais Yakkov wasn't chasidish enough to begin with. It was chasidish lite. To the extent that the official Havrah at the school was "litvish".
    The bais yakkov became more chasidish, and problem solved.
    But, believe as you wish, and don't let facts get in the way.

  45. Rabbi Daas Torah, one slight difference. Sex before marriage is assur, so if we are unhappy, which many are, that's what we do to serve G-d. Besides, it's usually only a temporary situation.

  46. I know that Lakewood is holy but I didn't realize it's forbidden to utter it's name.

  47. Did you read her will? Calling her husband a Nazi and wishing on him all the evils of the world R"L

  48. Chaim Shaulson has written about the issue with intimacy within Ger quite extensively.


  49. Sorry, I mixed up Ehud with Esti.

  50. I read the will. I didn't see it that way, and as far as I can tell, her children fell the same way.
    She blamed them for her suicide.

    Won? lost? You make it sound as if we're talking about children.
    She isn't a child, she's an adult who makes decisions and expects others to abide by them. Like a two year old.
    To those who hate the Torah, she was a hero, and continues to be in inspiration.
    Family be damned.
    If her family doesn't support her in her quest to destroy her religion, it serves their self fulfilling prophecy that religious leaders are at fault for their "indoctrination", forcing families apart.

    As Esti mentioned, their guilt will be immeasurable, the mom will be and is directly responsible for further repercussions due to her temper tantrum.
    Like a two year old.
    We win!

  51. Yes, that excuse was given, and evidently is still being given.

  52. She spells out pretty much everything. She was devastated with the commandant's reply. The takanot were forced on her against her inner will, the same as or equivalent to Mendele with his prods. She might have thought she can swing it, but she couldn't. See Talmud about rotza isha betisha kavin ... ask Miriam veAharon what they had to say about Prishus. According to Das Moshe veYisrael she is entitled to it. Refusing her when she craves for intimacy is inhumane and cruel punishment not to mention it is against human nature, ask Mamme Ruchel. The mishna also says that Svira hayiti she'ani yachol lekabla, so she didn't ask for something that's off the norm from human nature. Go ask ten women how they truly feel about such, and that's what counts. It is widely known in the world about this sect and their takanot, it failed her as well as many others you didn't yet hear about. Most of the Gedoilim are against it, verabim challolim hipilu! If you some up all the tragedies that this has brought on and brings to family unity you will find her having lots of company. She chose not to continue and live this kind of life, or better said she could not even after trying hard, therefore had to leave her children behind. I can feel the pain when she had to depart, can you? My heart bleeds for her, and I would never ever say she abandoned her children. That is my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. veze hakol

  53. The proof is in the pudding. Go to the gerrer shtiblech and see how many sleep there overnight! is htis what you call veyodato ki sholom oholech?

  54. What about all the children that were molested and as a cosequence went OTD followed by suicide would you call them the same name. Can you understand what caused them to go OTD. When the rabonim gang up on these wounded children, isolate them from klall Yisrael, blame them for what happened, who do you think is guilty for ending up such. You can rant till the chickens come home to roost, but these are the tragic facts.

  55. Holy tartei mashma. I have read this here on the blog so named by Fakewooders

  56. When a little snowball starts rolling, it rolls out of control. It is shmek tabbak next to robbing her of her life.

  57. Politically IncorrectJune 29, 2016 at 11:56 AM

    To you and everyone: is it an avlah that the kehilla paid for lawyers for Shulem Deen's wife and similar OTD cases to keep the kids away from them and keep them religious?

  58. but that is not the halacha. She did abandon her children - please stick to the facts instead of what you imagine happened

  59. Politically IncorrectJune 29, 2016 at 12:03 PM

    A bit surprised,Mr. Barak, I only see assertions and no link. .

  60. I heard that also in EY there is a problem of girls not wanting to marry Gerrer bochurim.

  61. Here are the facts that happened, in her own words:
    From the

    You are here:Home/Newsroom / Joe Levin / Before Suicide, Esti Weinstein Penned Book About Her Ordeals In Ultra-Orthodox...

    0202122 Before Suicide, Esti Weinstein Penned Book About Her Ordeals In Ultra-Orthodox World
    ..."Once, when she asked her husband to make love to her more than the twice a month permitted in the Takanot, he left their home to call a counselor for advice and only came back two hours later.

    “He paused for a moment in the entrance to the living room, didn’t even look at me, and threw into the space of the room the sentence that would hound me for many years afterwards and until today: ‘The rabbi said one shouldn’t add days except what the rebbe [head of the sect] from Gur defined, which is twice a month, and we already did this twice this month! Therefore, the rabbi said, this month we should not do it again, and added and instructed, that if you accept my pronouncement, that is great! And if not — that I should sleep in the living room, and if that also doesn’t help and you continue to insist, then the rabbi ruled that I should sleep in the [synagogue]! Good night!’

    “He finished like a father instructing his children to go straight to bed because it is late. He went to the bedroom and immediately fell asleep, and I spent the night in tears and wailing terribly.”

    As far as Halacha is concerned, once she abandons the religion the BD paskens the children to the spouse. Conforming to the Psak is not called abandonment, and I can understand her inner conflict about losing them.

    You can argue about whether she should have continued to live an unhappy life of Takanot or part ways, but that was her personal choice. The reason for going OTD, whether in spite for having taken away the children or for being denied the warmth a marriage is meant to provide that she was dying for, is not clear to me. In any which case, it is abundantly clear that the failure of the marriage was due to the Takanot and having her intimate love life dictated by "Commendants" against her G-d given rights and wishes, not the other way around. It is very sad that it ended up the way it did, and many women can attest to that. Before all this happened, she was in full control of all her faculties, not sick nor any mental problems. Even in the animal kingdom, it is in nature of the Parents to fight tooth and nail not to have their children taken away from them, and this mother wasn't any different. I firmly believe that this tore her apart to thousands of pieces, this being the direct result of it. Denying a woman when she craves for the Husband is cruel and against the Halacha. She nebach was fighting for crumbs just hear him utter her name, but to no avail. Personally, my heart bleeds for such an unnecessary loss of life and feel the pain of all parties involved.

    Hamakom yenachem eschem besoch shaar aveilei tzion virusholoyim, velo yishoma od shod veshever beYisroel. Amen

  62. Yogati velo motzosi al taamin. At times, DISQUS is not synchronized well and boshesh lovo, many others had the same problem. I have given all the mareh mekomos I have throughout this debate. Please call me by my nick, TY

  63. you are providing a lot of your creative imagination as to what happened but the above is not accurate. Furthermore claiming that what she says are the facts - without regard to context or the fact that she might not be objective or even accurate - is not helpful

    She did not lose the children because she accepted the ruling of a beis din because she gave up religion. She walked away from her family i.e. she abandoned them. She made no attempt to obtain custody which if she had gone to a secular court there is a possibility that she would have been awarded custody - but she didn't even try.

    Regarding your other points - again you are missing the halacha. Look up what it says about a woman who agrees to marry despite be warned of the existence and nature of the takkanos or if she knows her husband is a tzadik or ascetic. We are not talking about violations of halacha. She agreed.

    You can argue that she thought she could deal with it but in reality she couldn't. In such cases the answer is clear - divorce. Her husband had no obligation to do more than what the takkanos allow.

  64. A Rabbi I once had in a American yeshiva some six years ago ,once mentioned before the shiur,how keen he was to know what was in these mysterious well-guarded Takkanot in the Ger Chassidut.It is quite eerie to see some of the hushed up secrets revealed in all its glory due to this tragic story
    .All I can imagine that these Takkanot are to add to the holiness of the marriage,but obviously the lady involved has to be able to abide with these Takkanot.If she cannot,there is no way such a marriage could or should work.I would even add that if she initially agreed,but then realized she cannot cope with it,then she should have the right to say so.
    The lady needs to feel loved,and if the husband will not do so due to his Chumra,then how on earth can such a marriage last???Can anyone see such a marriage lasting if the lady involved cannot tolerate not being loved????

  65. Don't understand why your rabbi thought it was a well guarded secret - everybody else seems to know in great detail what they are So my post on the subject


  66. I also hear there is a problem of girls not wanting to marry yeshiva guys and tall girls not wanting to marry short guys. The question is what the problem is and how common it is. Obviously there are many gerrer chassidim who are getting married despite public knowledge about these takanos

  67. It is intellectually dishonest to throw out veiled references, with grandiose implications. Besides, I've been there very late leil Sbs (I'm not a Gerrer Chossid) and the place was empty!

  68. Time will tell who said what to whom and when. Takanos cannot overrule Halacha, divrei harav vedivrei haTalmid, divrei mi shomin. Talmud talks about obligations of Pkuda for ish hayotze lederech, or if you see the wife miskashetes lebaala etc. I have read about her particular complaints before she yet committed suicide, I don't think she made it up. Her status wasn't mentioned anywhere if divorced, but that is not always the panacea for everything. I am sure that much more will be aired out soon and get a much more clear understanding of abandonement or not, because it is nogea for anyone with a heart. We then can discuss it more intelligently.

  69. I suggest you review the halacha again. The Ger Takkanos are not against halacha.

  70. Which Bais Yaakov?

  71. I see a decent number of American Gerrer guys marrying non-Gerrer women.

  72. It seems the daughters were adults at time she left. (Current age 57, she left seven years ago.)

    Court action wouldn't help.

  73. is it an avlah that the kehilla paid for lawyers for Shulem Deen's wife and similar OTD cases to keep the kids away from them and keep them religious?

    It is definitely the right decision! Without a doubt. שכרם הרבה מאד
    Now, without talking about Deen - but on a case by case basis - there usually comes a time where the OTD parent is willing to compromise. Yes, at that point there is a responsibility for the people involved to bring the child and parent back together, under the right conditions and circumstances.

    Why couldn't they meet at her parents house (they are fully religious)? More so, before they found her body, the children said that they will now have contact with her - how were they able to do so? Obviously there was a way, after the court proceedings were over to have contact with clear guidelines - let's call them takanos! - that she would have to abide by to ensure that she is not pulling her kids away from Yiddishkeit. But it must be done. Not doing so is akin to murder.

  74. What really happened, according to the Chanel 10 news reporter.


    ככה נראה עוול. באנו היום ללווית אסתי וינשטיין ז''ל כדי לפגוש את בני משפחתה המרושעים וקרי הלב ובסוף פגשנו משפחה אצילית ורגישה, שמענו הספד של אבא חרדי רגיש ואוהב והסבר ובקשת סליחה של בת חרדית רגישה וכואבת. זה אומר שצריך לכתוב את כל הסיפור של 48 השעות האחרונות מחדש ולהגיד את האמת: בעצם כל מה ששמעתם על רשעות הצד החרדי היה עוול ולא אמת.
    משהו עם הרשעות החרדית לא הסתדר לי לאורך כל הדרך:
    בהתחלה הייתה טענה שהחרדים הולכים את לחטוף את הגופה,התקשרתי, דיברתי עם המשפחה, הם הזדעזעו מהרעיון ''מה פתאום, חס ושלום'', מיותר לומר שאף אחד לא ניסה לחטוף את הגופה.
    אחר כך אמרו שהבנות ניתקו קשר מאמם בגלל הוראה אכזרית של האדמו''ר, התקשרתי, דיברתי עם המשפחה, הם התחייבו שאין שום הוראה מהאדמו''ר והסבירו שבשום אופן לא מדובר בעניין דתי, אלא בעניין אנושי פשוט, הבנות כעסו על אמא אהובה שפתאום יום אחד לפני שבע שנים קמה ועזבה אותן ולכן הניתוק.
    אחר כך אמרו שהחרדים דורשים לקבור אותה חלילה מחוץ לגדר, התקשרתי, דיברתי עם המשפחה, הם הזדעזעו מהרעיון, "היא הייתה אמא טובה, אנחנו אוהבים אותה'' לא היה ולא נברא.
    אחר כך אמרו שהם לא מתכוונים לשבת שבעה על אסתי ז''ל, התקשרתי, דיברתי עם המשפחה, הם הזדעזעו מהרעיון לא היה ולא נברא
    אחר כך אמרו שהם דורשים לוויה חרדית קטנה ומהירה שתבזה את כבודה של אסתי ז''ל, התקשרתי, דיברתי עם המשפחה, הם אמרו שזה לא נכון ושהם מכבדים את הבחירות של אסתי ז''ל ושהם הבהירו שאין להם שום בעיה שיהיו פרחים ושירים בלוויה.
    אחר כך הלכו לבית לבית משפט כדי שיכריע שתהיה לוויה באווירה חילונית (זה לא באמת לוויה חילונית שירים ופרחים), ודיווחו שהצד החילוני ניצח ושהשופטים פסקו נגד המשפחה החרדית. אבל המשפחה החרדית בכלל לא שלחה אף אחד לדיון כדי לטעון הפוך ובכלל לא הייתה חלק מהמריבה, הם בכלל לא רצו לריב ולא היה צריך לנצח אותם בבית המשפט כי כפי שכתבתי הם הסבירו שהם מכבדים את הבחירה הלא חרדית של אסתי ז''ל.
    אחר כך אמרו שהמשפחה מחרימה את הלוויה של אסתי ז''ל, שזה שיא האכזריות, ואז ... ואז פתאום היום בלוויה ראינו קבוצה של נשים חרדיות חסידות גור מתייפחות שמגיעות ללוויה וגברים עצובים חסידי גור והם כולם עומדים בצד בצורה חרישית רגישה ובנימוס ומחכים לחלק שבו יאפשרו להם להשתתף. ואז שמענו את האבא מספיד את הבת שלו, ואת הבת הבכורה רחלי מספידה את אמא שלה בלי שאף חרדי יגיד לה שהיא בת ולא יכולה לדבר בפורום כזה. ואז, ואז הבנתי שהשבוע נעשה עוול בישראל.
    מצורף: הטקסט המלא של ההספד של הבת הבכורה של אסתי ז''ל:
    נזכור ולא נשכח
    את שנות הילדות שחלק מאיתנו זכו לחוות בחיקך
    את המשפחתיות והאהבה שהיו מנת חלקך
    נזכור ולא נשכח
    את השנים בהן גידלת אותנו
    בחוכמתך הרבה הרעפת לכולנו
    נזכור ולא נשכח שבכול שנות ילדותינו רצית בכל מאודך רק את טובתנו
    התאמצת ולמדת איך לגדל אותנו ולהיות אמא טובה בשבילנו
    נזכור ולא נשכח איך הלכנו איתך בגאווה שבע בנות מדהימות
    ואת היית נראת כמו עוד אחות גדולה וכשאמרנו את המילה אמא מסביבינו עצרו נשימה
    נזכור ולא נשכח שאת חלקנו זכית לחתן
    לתת את נשמתך ולקבלם כמו בן
    את נכדייך הגדולים קיבלת באהבה עצומה
    התרגשת עם כל אחד ואחת ופינקת תמיד נתתת הרגשה לכולם
    נזכור ולא נשכח את היום המר והנמהר שבו אותנו נטשת
    התחננו להסברים ביקשנו לבא איתך
    אך הפנית אל לבנו את הגב, ילדות קטנות שביום בהיר ננטשות
    ואין אמא שתסביר ותרפא את השברים
    אמא אמא
    נזכור תמיד ולא נשכח שאלוקים נתן ואלוקים לקח
    מסובב הסיבות רצה את דמעותינו
    העמיד בניסינות קשים את כולנו
    ושנות סבל וייסורים היו מנת חלקנו כולנו
    נזכור כל אחד מאיתנו שכעת טוב לך ומלמעלה את רואה את התמונה כולה
    בטוחה אני שאת רואה ששום דבר לא נעשה בכוונה
    מבינה אני שיש דברים שלא ניתן היה להשיב
    אבל כעת תוכלי מלמעלה להביט ולהקשיב
    להבין את כל מה שלא הבינו בני האדם מסביבנו
    אבל העיקר שכעת קבלי את סליחתנו

  75. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/214253#.V3PM-7grKM8

  76. We have Ehud who thinks that the takanot do violate halacha, and Rabbi Eidensohn who says that it does not violate halacha. You would need to bring proof to back up your version. No, the book that Esti was pushed to write is not sufficient proof. In fact, writing this book is what took her life.

    To the idiotic director of where she worked to masis umadiach, bashing Chareidim was the most important prize. Esti's mental health meant nothing to him. That's why he stupidly said "I didn't know that she was hurting." What an idiot! She kept on crying, writing suicidal thoughts in public, and her close work associate and adviser hasn't a clue? But he has every detail to push her to write her whole life story the way she did! No clue, or too many clues and details? He cared about knocking Chareidim. Esti was a convenient hammer. He did not care if the hammer got beaten up.

  77. Won? lost? You make it sound as if we're talking about children.

    Have you observed people in divorce cases? No, they often behave worse than children.

    She is not a hero. The idiot who told her to write her little book is
    the most responsible for the outcome of what happened to her. Yes, to him, bashing and giving a negative view of Chareidim was more important than Esti's mental health. He was happy to use her to gain what he wanted. He did murder her in a certain sense. However, that is not the whole story.

    Her family was right in remaining religious.

    But, there was a point where contact between them could have been reestablished. Yes, guidelines would be a must. But it could have been done. As the secular reporter said, this was a human story, not a religious story.

  78. Relevance?
    We talking about adults here

  79. I sometimes daven at a Gerrer shul in Brooklyn. I've probably been to all of the local ones. There's 11 or 12 of them here.
    Noone sleeps there at night.
    Perhaps if you spent less time at a strip club, you'd know that.
    How do I know you go to strip clubs? Well, I heard you don't sleep home at night, so where else?
    I heard it from somebody who once heard it from somebody else who told me that. The proof is in the pudding

  80. Funny how you mix up excuse with reason. If you have an agenda, then the it all makes sense.

  81. Wrong place at the wrong time. leil Sbs is from the 2x granted.
    When have you been last in shul @ machneh schneller? Have you also been at their salon? There are plenty of discussions online of Gur wives exchanging views al odos isha hakushis asher lakach, ved"al. This seems to be an extreme case, but there are plenty of problems before it gets to this stage.

  82. I'm not editing anything because I believe the testimonies given by the persons interviewed in the link. If you don't, that's your prerogative.
    I have no idea of what article you're talking about.

  83. See the English translation on my lastest post


  84. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/06/esti-weinstein-channel-10-reporter-says.html

  85. I already presented, here is some more. Read page 7 of Rav Yitzchok Isaac Sher's view of marriage. Why don't you ask R' Eidensohn what the consequences are when "Ve'el ishech tshukoseich is denied". If the book didn't convince you, maybe the Dudaim she asked for at her levaya will. What she couldn't get in life, her dear father holds on clinching to those red roses after her passing as a last wish . That's the message she wanted for all to know after her death. If you still didn't get it, you never will.

  86. Apparently, it was a gzeira she'eina yechola la'amod bah and she has lot's of company. What does a seventeen year old know of something she has no experience in, giving consent to a life of prishus. Aharon haKohen that was a master on Sholom Bayis spoke out about it, ditto Miriam and Tziporah, that are authorized for opinions in such issues. Although, we are not talking here about Moshe Rabeinu's asher diber peh el peh. This is about much more than who is right or who is wrong, there must be something done a tikun al haTkana added or explained to all prospects before commitment, that many failed at it verabim challolim hipilah, 'velav kol moche sovel do'. I do sympathize for the greater family and feel their pain in my heart.

  87. So am I. They commit suicide when they are adults. We had to many happening lately all over the place. Maybe you should spend less time in other Adult places, you then would know.

  88. Bais Yakkov d'ger in bp

  89. Oh. So she was also molested?!?Prove it.
    Stop pushing your twisted narrative

  90. Why would Ger's beis yaakov ever have had a litvish havara, etcetera?

  91. Molestation is only one of the reasons why children commit suicide when they are adults. maspik im hashtuyot shelcha. Not interested. Who is on first, huh?

  92. dono. I assume because the original school (female) leaders were Bais Yakkov grads, and they just continued with what they know.
    Either way, those are the fact, I know first hand.

  93. english please.
    to rehash: why did she murder herself? You say because she was molested as a youth. I say, she ran away from her kids without considering the ramifications of her actions, and paid for it dearly.
    In your twisted mind, it all makes sense.
    Lynch the Gerrers!!!!

  94. Was Christy Sheats also due to the Gerer takonos?
    What do you know about mental illness? Did you notice that they were both 42 when they snapped?

    Had she not been told to write that book, chances are that she would be alive today. She was used.

  95. maspik im hashtuyot shelcha. Not interested. Who is on first, huh?

    Some advice for thyself?

    Like this one: Maybe you should spend less time in other Adult places, you then would know.

  96. Is there a link to the Gur discussion specifically?

  97. In fact, I have no agenda at all. But judging by how hot you're getting under the collar, you clearly do.

  98. No idea. I would find it hard to believe if they did, but I don't know.

  99. We're both discussing an issue, I'm speaking with first hand knowledge, you are discussing hearsay. When I point out the truth, you make up excuses. Who's getting under whose collar?

  100. http://www.kikar.co.il/202610.html -for discussions

    The boys coming back from Israel had a very hard time finding shiduchim because the girls did not want this lifestyle, so they decided to open up their own Beis Yaakov where they groom the girls for such a lifestyle.

  101. Wasn't she remarried?

  102. You submitted that American Gerrer girls were frequently marrying non-Gerrer guys. That would mean a goodly number of Gerrer guys are left without Gerrer girls to marry. Resulting in them either not marrying (which isn't occurring in any appreciable numbers) or them marrying non-Gerrer girls.

  103. The bais yakkov of gur in bp opened over 35 years ago.
    There goes your theory

  104. A few issues worthwhile to note. The Tkanot are more than 35 years old, and those that are followers are obliged to comply and it is not reflecting of their real personality. I know quite a few Gur Hasidim yereim ushleimim, anshei midos, lomdei Torah and Talmidei chachamim, much to be admired. In the outside world many of their daughters are reluctant to marry within the sect just because of the Tkanot. The few wives that I happen to know are always bitter, never see a smile on their face and quite understandable. I don't claim to have statistics, but this incidence spoke loud and clear and as far as human nature is concerned it is of a consequence. I have no doubt in how much her Father and Mother loved their precious daughter, just like any other parents. He spoke very highly of her past, mishichma ulamala! It is of sort of the vayivki al mishpechoisom, the kind they have not much say in it. It chokes me to tears seeing the Father holding on to those Red Roses honoring their daughter's last wish before saying a final goodbye lechayey olamim.

    I was wondering from which previous Gur $Rebi this Tkana comes from, and why did he feel that there is a need for it. Was there a specific incidence? Just asking.

  105. please read Dr. Benny Brown's article Kedushah which address the history and nature of the Takanos. The link is at the top of the post on Rav Yitzchok Isaac Sher and the issue of love

  106. Politically IncorrectJune 30, 2016 at 9:20 PM

    Although I didn't read what she wrote (do you mean her 138 page biography?) I am not sure what you mean by compromise, wouldn't then her children's Yiddishkeit be 'compromised'? Look, the only daughter she had a relationship with was compromised in her Yiddishkeit?

  107. I meant her will.

    The biography is what killed her. The person who encouraged her to write it is a murderer.

    I am not sure what you mean by compromise, wouldn't then her children's Yiddishkeit be 'compromised'?

    It is not all or nothing. Did you miss a suggestion of meeting at her parents house? No, their Yidishkeit did not have to be compromised. Her kids were devastated and deeply wounded for what they experienced as their loving mother just abandoning them. That hurt expresses itself in anger and hatred.

    If there had been a sense of responsibility and selfless concern for the children's emotions, they would have been brought together. The children would have been given the ability to understand their mother and to feel their mother's warmth. There are many, many children who have relationships with their non-religious parents.

    [Cute story that a baal teshuva told me. Their non-religious mother traveled to a famous bakery and bought them their special "kosher for Passover" danish etc. One problem, the bakery is treif and certainly without a hashgachah, but they do offer "kosher for Passover" items. She obviously didn't understand what was wrong with these.. The point is that relationships are possible. And when a relationship is possible, it is a necessity.]

    Look, the only daughter she had a relationship with was compromised in her Yiddishkeit?

    That was right away. When it became clear that the others wont follow, at that point she was willing to just have a relationship with them.

  108. Just to clarify - I do think that those who are still holding Shulem Deen's children from him are doing a great avlah. Again, it needs to be done wisely, and a firm agreement that pushing religion and lifestyles are off limits, but it must be done. His children should be able to see him. Those who are not allowing his children to see him are wrong. Dead wrong!

  109. It seems that it was a real Sholom Bayis problem. In her final letter she seems to use the harshest language towards another person who I assume was some sort of askan in this case so I would investigate what was the role of this person.
    Another question that I would ask is why did she not become modern Charedi or just basic Shomer Shabbos. I understand that she was frum after she left her family.
    The Takones may have been an important factor in this case but it also appears that lack of clarity of Yidishe values may have been a major factor. Personally I think that many of the charedim who become secular and not just 'more modern frum' because they were taught to look down on more modern people so the only dignified way out is completely out to the extent that they no longer need to recognise these ideas.

  110. That is an easy one. For a mother (who apparently was a good mother) to leave her children is a BIG thing and it is most likely that she was not 100% in herself. It is very unlikely that she would leave her children for live secular life as you suggest.

  111. You are getting hot under the collar. As seen by your accusation of me having an agenda. And your describing someone else's view as "twisted." You're clearly upset about this -- perhaps you have ties to Ger -- I, on the other am not upset at all. None of this means much to me. Just reporting on the facts as I understand them. You disagree? Fine with me.

  112. I said nothing about frequency of Ger/non-Ger intermarriages. I said the Gerrers were having a major issue with girls not wanting to marry their guys b/c of the takanos. I have no idea if or how they resolved this.

  113. I agree. It is unconscionable. What's more, if they think they will save the children that way, they may be in for a surprise. The children will rightly resent having been denied contact with their father, and who knows what direction they will take once they are grown, Hashem yeracheim.

  114. Another question that I would ask is why did she not become modern Charedi or just basic Shomer Shabbos.

    You know nothing about this woman, and you're building all sorts of false and silly things on her. Actually, you are simply using her as a way to assert your opinions. In what way are you better than the person who got her to write the book, which is what killed her? Stop using people! How about a bit of compassion for a person who had a difficult life.

    I understand that she was frum after she left her family.

    Where do you know this from? What do you know about her brother?

    but it also appears that lack of clarity of Yidishe values may have been a major factor. Personally I think that many of the charedim who become secular and not just 'more modern frum'

    You're an idiot! 52% of graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools drop Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of their graduation!!! Why don't you focus on this statistic instead of using a tragic and sad case of human, emotional and mental suffering as a way to assert all sorts of falsehoods, wild accusations and insanity.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

  115. Politically IncorrectJuly 1, 2016 at 8:17 AM

    Why on earth are those withholding Shulem Deen's children from him doing an avlah?? Godol hamachtiyoi yoiser min hahorgoi! A child can visit a cobra in the zoo with the separation of a glass wall, prison visits are done likewise, these options don't exist in contact with a maisis umaidiach ...taking souls off the derech!

  116. Politically IncorrectJuly 1, 2016 at 8:19 AM

    In all surgeries the obvious greater risk is not doing the operation. ..

  117. Assuming some Gerrer girls are not marrying the Gerrer guys, as many Gerrer guys must be marrying someone else (i.e. non-Gerrer girls.)

  118. I understand that she was frum after she left her
    family.Where do you know this from?
    I know this from someone who knew her.

    52% of graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools drop Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of their graduation!!!
    Where did you get this exact figure and what is the 'definition' of modern orthodox. She was not modern Orthodox by any standard, in her case it is anything but normal to become secular. The question is very relevant because she was sane enough to keep Shabbos and whilst it may have been justified to run away from home. This has nothing to do with being a mechalel shabbos.

    Your 'honesty' cannot be better than your knowledge that is rather poor in the case.

    Finally, my post has nothing to do with empathy or lack of it to a clearly depressed person who committed suicide

  119. 1) I know this from someone who knew her.

    Her own, self-written, book seems to suggest otherwise. What were you saying about dishonesty?

    But this individual's personal struggles are irrelevant to everyone else.

    2) It is extremely, extremely rare for a person like her to drop Yiddishkeit.

    You ask why she didn't choose to follow a path 52% of it's own youth don't follow? You blame it on an educational system that has a much, much, much better rate?

    Oh, in Israel there is a 23 - 50% dropout rate once the boys and girls enter the army or national service. The variance in number comes from differing sources, but no Daati Leumi rabbi will disagree with the 23% figure. It's a fact. No, Ger doesn't have any sort of comparable drop-out rate.

    Again, the problem is not that Chareidim don't value the religiosity of Modern Orthodox and Daati Leumi; The problem is that too many Modern Orthodox and Daati Leumi don't value their religiosity.

    Focus your efforts on having the MO and DL value their religiosity, and stop using a tragic story to throw out false accusations. Accusations that lack logic.

    Finally, my post has nothing to do with empathy or lack of it to a clearly depressed person who committed suicide

    It sure does. You are saying that depression and other emotional and mental health issues are not the cause of her problems. You are saying that the cause of her problems was a lack of clarity. That is simply disgusting. The end.

  120. How do you know that he wants to take his kids off the derech?
    How do you know that the reason that they are keeping them from him now, eight years later, is to keep them Frum and not because of their emotional desires to be victorious, revenge etc?



    It is clear, without a doubt, that a healthy relationship could be set up. Yes, true, guidelines, spiritual safety etc would have to be created. But it can, and must be done. I'm not sure that you properly appreciate a parent's love and care for their child.


  121. I suppose, but as I said, I have no information on that.

  122. Ridiculous comparison.

  123. Her own, self-written, book seems to suggest otherwise. What were you saying about dishonesty?
    Why do you believe what she wrote. The book is there to sell and to defend her actions.

    Oh, in Israel there is a 23 - 50% dropout rate once the boys and girls enter the army or national service
    Where has the R figure gone?
    23- to 50 that is huge didifferencePerhaps they just do not know and did she also go to the army.

    You got the entire story wrong. You seem to be unaware of both the story and the circumstances

  124. Do you even think about what you write? You're suggesting that we should believe your anonymous assertion, which is in contradiction to what she wrote, in order to accept your riddiculous assertion about Chareidim's supopposed lack of clarity about Judaism which you're trying to make her representative of. Simply riddiculous.

    Please focus on MO lack of clarity or conviction, which is why they have a 52% attrition rate. Same with the DL and their unfortunate attrition rate. This unfortunate rarity does nothing to give MO the silly edge you would like to give it.

  125. Are you talking about shlomo with his stiyot. He probably got a heter meah commendant's, berov am hadras melech. So much for prishus, tzvius bela"az aka Pilegesh begivo.

  126. Did you read the Pilegesh begivoh he inflicted on her? What would You call him?


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