Thursday, December 30, 2010

Emunas Chachomim - debate between Breslaver & Litvaks 1822

This was taken from Prof Dovid Assaf's article regarding the issue of
the status of the Ohr HaChaim amongst the Chassidim


  1. Interesting article : I have claimed for some time now that the "mitnagdim" of today are not of the same beliefs as the original Lithuanian Gedolim, ie The Gra and R'Haimm of Volozhin.
    Indeed the very same R'Haim Vollozhiner writes in his Ruah Hahaim,that hea learnt from his Master, the Gaon of Vilna, that sometimes a student can find a fault in the master's teachings, and it is incumbent on the student to battle with the master to arrive at the truth of the matter. This is the very opposite of Daas Torah as used today.
    And the mitnagdim of today have simply adopted the Hassidic model of having a Rebbe, and having total faith in his perfection.
    Another teaching of the Gra was that he did not rely on messages from "Maggidim" , which could sometimes be distorted (i saw this in one of R' Norman Lamm's books mentioning the Gra).

  2. Is there any info on the exact identity of the people he was arguing with? Odessa was better known as a center of Haskala than a center of Litvishe learning. The Maskilim, who were violently opposed to Hasidism, often claimed, rather disingenuously, to be disciples of the Vilna Gaon.

    Chasidic histories, especially Chabad, often lump the maskilim and the misnagdim together as one group. It is possible that the same error was made here by R' Nosson.

  3. What's going on here?qouting only half the story?the side of the chossid?Not even explaining what the chosid meant as munas chochimim. Besides, obviously the whole thing is a total mistake.There was no vilna gaon people in odessa.His infulence and talmidim didn't extend that far out of lithunia.(i'm talking about lita in the jewish sense.Including large parts of belarus and eastern pland.)

  4. Eddie ,why bring the maggidim?Which missnagdim talk to maggidim or claim today to hear one?And i heard that the vilna gaon wanted all the torah he learned to me from his own efforts and not from a maggid.As for the daas torah comment.It's a given in yeshivos to battle it out with your rosh yeshivah,espically by shiur time.p.s.where did your ideas about the litvih world?

  5. C.
    Any discussion I have seen in Yeshiva world, is only superficial. "It's a given in yeshivos to battle it out with your rosh yeshivah" - yea right, does anyone hold different from his Rosh Yeshiva?
    And why is there only one Posek / gadol hador, with whom the million or so followers never disagree? that is a Hassidic model.
    I do not suggest rebellion or in fighting, but there is no open disagreement or discussion. Let alone "battle".

  6. Are you kidding me?You are woefully misinformed about the litvish world.Yes,we don't go public with disputes.Torah people don't have to give material for the corner people to talk about .You are trying to protect yourself by saying you don't suggest etc...But open disagreement is infighting and it becomes horrible if it goes public.The tal law is a good example,both of disagreement in the torah world, and if it goes public,of the damage it causes.

  7. I'm glad to see you had no problems with the rest of what i posted.With the maggidim and the gaon.


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