Tuesday, April 21, 2020

If Liquor Stores Are Essential, Why Isn’t Church?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/opinion/first-amendment-church-coronavirus.html

The new conundrums created by the coronavirus can be addressed by some very old materials: the principles of the First Amendment.

76 comments :

  1. What a dumb question. Liquor stores can control the number of people who enter, work to ensure proper spacing by customers and sanitize areas quickly.
    Could you imagine a church or shul like that? A minyan arrives, they're allowed in and everyone else is turned away?

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  2. Among other things, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the right to peaceably assemble. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.
    While we are living in trying times, please explain the legal basis for Government being allowed to interfere with these Constitutional rights, for example, by prohibiting people to assemble for religious services?

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  3. https://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message4360948/pg1 federal judge

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  4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U9eLUmUOCw

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  5. I don't go for clickbait...

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  6. try this https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article242100806.html

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  7. Israel has no constitution, so what is the excuse of these haredim in the video clip?
    As for America, the constitution places limits on the federal govt. The White House put out a set of recommendations and each local and state govt has applied as it sees fit. These orders were made by various states during a declared state of emergency, so they do not violate the constitution.
    Quit hiding behind constitutional law. I thought we were orthodox Jews here? Shouldn't the question of praying with a minyan be decided by halacha? Explain to me why your "need" to feel good praying with a minyan with your buddies overrides pikuah nefesh.

    To Whom are we praying? Aren't we praying to the same God who told us to protect ourselves and our fellow man's lives? Why would we endanger lives in order to serve up prayers to that God?

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  8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIW_-GUnUOE

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  9. I'm not anybody's spokesperson, and feel no responsibility or obligation to explain anybody's actions.

    You should be intelligent and open-minded enough, to realize that not all people share the same perception of reality as yourself, and that includes religious Jews of other stripes.

    This explains why different people see things in a different light, and therefore take different things more or less seriously. There is no one size fits all approach, and a person is advised to seek guidance as how to conduct themselves.

    As for myself, I will decide for myself how I want to fulfill my religious obligations, which may or may not agree with your sensibilities. That’s only between G-d and myself.

    The topic of discussion stands independent of the obligation of a religious Jew. As a 5th generation Jewish American, I’m concerned about the issue of encroachment of Government on the civil rights of all Americans.

    Given the history of the Jewish people, all Jews should be especially concerned about this issue, because the erosion of civil rights in any society can be the beginning of a slippery slope, and ultimately lead to tyranny and authoritarian forms of government.

    The U.S. Constitution includes contains no clear comprehensive emergency clause, which specifies when and how a state of emergency may be declared, and which rights may be suspended, and the US Supreme Court has ruled, that an emergency does not allow either the federal government or state governments to grant themselves any new powers.

    Governments can ask religious groups to voluntarily take measures that limit the spread of COVID-19; however we cannot allow fear to override civil rights principles, including the unique protections afforded to the free exercise of religion, or the right to peaceably assemble.

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  10. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 22, 2020 at 6:46 PM

    the right to peacably assemble - yes, but this clashes with murder/manslaughter when assembling can infect and kill many others

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  11. Participation in a communal prayer service, is consensual, and with proper social distancing, is a far cry from the legal elements needed to prove murder or manslaughter, and all the more so, in the Beis Din setting.

    There are many forms of risky behavior which people engage in, and Government doesn't involve itself in prohibiting them.

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  12. "You should be intelligent and open-minded enough, to realize that not all people share the same perception of reality as yourself, and that includes religious Jews of other stripes."

    No one gets to make up their own facts and reality.
    Last I checked, Judaism is not an opinion poll, but has been delineated by rabbanim through the ages. They are the ones that explained Torah's prioritization of pikuach nefesh, not me. It is a fact of life that gatherings and close contact during a deadly virus pandemic will spread the disease. Whether someone "sees reality differently" or not.

    Yes, the constitution is important and the bill of rights is important. Even cherished and sacred in its own way. But not everything is a conspiracy to take our rights away. And there are LIMITS to the rights afforded by the constitution including those of the first amendment. I don't pretend to be a legal scholar - I am not - but it is clear that the govt IS capable of restricting religious practice in the US under certain circumstances. For a basic primer of some issues that have come up over history, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Free_exercise_of_religion

    Governments are not limited to merely asking for voluntary compliance on any religion-impacting order. That is much too broad a brush stroke and doesn't summarize the issue accurately. Sorry.

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  13. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 22, 2020 at 9:46 PM

    Two wrongs don't make a right. You do not add risks to existing risks _ eg we must go out for food shopping, that's a given (not everything can be delivered). That doesn't justify taking additional risks for non essential things such as a minyan. Rav edelshtein has already called this person a rodef. Sotah tells us about the perushim who cause self harm from their foolish piety. King yannai also warned his wife about perushim who act like zimri and want the reward of Pinchas.

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  14. You haven't put yourself yet in the shoes and mindset of those people in Me'ah She'arim. Which is why you can't conceive that they might see reality in the same way as you do.

    I have a feeling that the Constitutional battle will be taken up by various groups, especially if the pandemic continues, and religious rights continue to be infringed upon. Let's see how it plays out.

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  15. do you put yoursel fin the mindset of people in a lunatic asylum or high security prison?
    That is what you are proposing - Meah Shearim crazy nuts, who throw rocks at other Jews, despite the fact that it is assur. These crazies claim statehood and army and rebellion is forbidden, yet they run their own mini-state, they fight guerilla warfare, and rebel against the occupying forces (as they see the State). Try putting your mind into theirs, let's see if you leave it one piece.

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  16. Fox's Tucker Carlson presses NJ governor on whether restrictions violate Bill of Rights

    Carlson asked Murphy about the arrests in Ocean County, N.J., of 15 men who were congregating for a rabbi's funeral at a Lakewood synagogue in early April.

    "The Bill of Rights, as you well know, protects Americans' rights — enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?"

    "That's above my pay grade, Tucker," Murphy replied. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this...

    Carson then pressed Murphy on how he had the authority to issue guidelines that would prevent people from gathering at a house of worship.

    "Since you are an elected official, a leader in the government, an executive, how do you have the authority to order something that so clearly contravenes the Bill of Rights of the United States — the U.S. Constitution. Where do you get the authority to do that?" Carlson said...

    "We have to find a different way to worship," Murphy later added in making the point that he wasn't denying anyone's right to worship.

    "Government’s not allowed to tell people how to worship,” Carlson retorted.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/493109-foxs-tucker-carson-presses-nj-governor-on-whether-restrictions-violate-bill-of

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  17. You can decide that you don't want to even try to put yourself in the mindset of these people. That's fine. But that will mean that you're not qualified to judge them.

    Middle age is when your broad mind and narrow waist begin to change places.

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  18. Sweden is doing fine with no Quarantine !


    except the really ill ones!https://youtu.be/5BCof31lX1I
    And also Taiwan same story

    Are we Nuts!?

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  19. Don't conflate Government and religion. My comment was about the intrusion of Government in religious practice. Anything else is not relevant to the discussion.

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  20. How do you explain what's happening in New York City and London r"l?

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  21. Sweden are not doing fine


    they have much higher deaths epr million than the rest of Scandinavia, where there are lockdowns


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-deaths-lockdown-social-distancing-denmark-finland-norway-a9470771.html

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  22. It must be the Freemason /Illuminati plot to reduce populations and take over the financial markets. Let's just find pictures of Trump with his hand inside his coat.!

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  23. My narrow waist was never that narrow

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  24. Oh, sometimes it's the opposite, - anything outside the halachic texts is not relevant to the discussion!

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  25. SWeden has approx the same size population as israel (though it is 20x bigger in land size) , but they have almost 10x as many fatalities as in Israel from this pandemic. I wonder, is that anything to do with the lockdown in Israel?

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  26. And this is even with relatively consistent and strong *voluntary* social distancing practices in Sweden (certainly better than western countries had prior to enforced lockdowns). It shows the limitations of those efforts but all the moreso if the public doesn't commit to it.

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  27. Population density is such a major factor on spread that the fact that they are so much worse off than Israel with same population within a 20x landmass is remarkable. Israel seems to have done a great job dealing with this from public health standpoint. Mandated quarantines for travelers was a brilliant step IMO.

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  28. https://youtu.be/VQ2OxWvLkX8

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  29. in most shteibles a minyan takes 20 min less then a supermarket wait

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  30. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvqBwPgrX_s

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  31. important point Why has the virus still not isolated yet?

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  32. It was isolated already dummy. What are you talking about?

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  33. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZijGZvUCBw

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  34. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 23, 2020 at 3:15 PM

    The "thinking" behind this kind of denialism is likely to do with 5G conspiracy theories, and denying any link between the virus and the deaths we are sadly seeing. His mentors already say the same about HIV.
    Oh, and the holocaust too.

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  35. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 23, 2020 at 4:06 PM

    So you accept Jesus? He is in the codes, and in a 26 letter count - proof!

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  36. Shoiteh

    Yes the goyem have some very limited answers and yes they found yoshkah in the torah
    everything in the universe can be found in the torah ..

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  37. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 23, 2020 at 9:03 PM

    So you are the shoteh, or worse

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  38. Kalonymus HaQatanApril 23, 2020 at 9:05 PM

    So scoffing at computer codes is a crime? Lol

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  39. Shows how much you know! you talk out of your hat!

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  40. this guy is talking a lot of nonsense, but also he may have a few valid points - namely that the lockdown will bring economic collapse, which may cost many lives too.
    However, he is one of those people who cannot realyl be traced, making claims that he dscovered some great cure etc. He is not biochemist of pharmacologist , and does not understand disease or drug development.
    for example, they say yo can kill the virus by washing in soap and warm water. would drinking this cure a person who is infected? Highly unlikely. What can be done in a test tube or other "out of body" experiment, does not always tarnslate in a real life "in the body" experiment. Even what you can achieve with lab rats does nto automatically work with humans.

    The problem with you , dear Berel, is you don't even know what to study to learn about science.

    This is becasue you obviously oppose formal education, and all university studies (this is the case with Satmar, Brisk, Neturei karta etc.)
    A clue - learn enough basic science, thendo a University course eg in biology, physics or general science. Learn their methodology. It will open your mind. You can even do a lot of this online.

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  41. Aside from being a dumb video from a hoaxer, there is zero mention made here about the topic of isolation of coronavirus.

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  42. Proud Conservative MomApril 28, 2020 at 8:25 PM

    Putting government aside for a moment, you might find this tibdit interesting: the very famous Posek, Rav Dovid Cohen, (his son Rav Aharon Cohen, is my synagogue's Rabbi), lives right next door to my in-laws. He gave a very powerful Psak (ruling). Rav Cohen said that anyone who davens with a Minyan now, has to daven again in Yechidus (by one's self). This is because that one cannot do a Mitzvah, from an Aveirah. The Mitzvah is "Ushmartem Me'Ode Es Nafshoseychem" (and you will be extremely watchful of your lives ---- one of the Commandments of the Torah).

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  43. Proud Conservative MomApril 28, 2020 at 8:30 PM

    I absolutely concur very wholeheartedly, that government has positively no business inserting itself into the rights of regligious people.

    We need to be extremely mindful to push back on government that has unilaterally taken upon itself to wield tremendous power, that was not gifted to it by our Constitution!!!

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  44. I deliberately focussed on Government, since I'm very concerned about the intrusion of Government in religious practice.

    As for religious practice, that stands as a separate topic. There are many different Rabbanim, and sometimes they may have different rulings. Every person is advised to find themselves a rabbi, who they trust to give them guidance in the various areas of life.

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  45. Proud Conservative MomMay 1, 2020 at 12:08 AM

    AGREED! We are priviliged, indeed, to have him as the Rabbi of our shul (synagogue).

    You are absolutely correct in that different Rabbanim can, and do at times, issue different rulings. That being said, I mentioned Rav David Cohen, in particular, because he is one of the top Rabbis internationally in ruling on Halacha (Jewish Law).

    I also concur, positively, in that government should have no place, whatsoever, in our religion. (Where is all of the agitation about the separation of church and state, herein? So far, I have heard very few law makers speak about just this very topic.

    I have you and your family in my prayers. I pray that you and your family should be, and remain completely healthy.

    Did you ever hear from again, Ari, who had owned the blog that we posted on? I pray that he and his family are in a good place, as well.

    It is getting really scary out there, with regard to the economy. My husband, at this point, is still employed, albeit, the company announced a pay cut commencing this week through the end of October. They are doing this in lieu of commencing complete job terminations. The U.S. has to be re-opened ASAP! This country cannot by any means, endure G-d forbid, another Great Depression!!!

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  46. Hashem should help everybody with their "parnassa"!

    When we encounter trying times, we should see it as an opportunity to work on our Bitachon. When we're sitting pretty on the mountain of success, it's difficult to think about Hashem, since we tend to attribute our financial success, to our own skills and talents. However when a person's livelihood is on the line, a person realizes that it's not up to himself, and he needs to turn to a higher power in order to weather this situation. This is a time, when we can get much closer to Hashem!

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  47. Proud Conservative MomMay 3, 2020 at 8:49 PM

    Absolutely!

    I have been dealing with financial hardship not long after I got sick --- about 18 years ago. It just keeps getting more and more difficult. That being said, it is precisely BECAUSE Hashem runs the world, that I have any peace of mind!

    When catastrophe , or hardship of any sort takes place, I have seen basically two types of reactions. Either one can Heaven forbid, "throw" Hashem away by distancing themselves from Him, or become much closer to Him. I have been through HeII on Earth, yet remain extremely close to Him. I have never once looked back, and am forever grateful that I am an Orthodox Jew; one of His Chosen People!

    May we merit greeting Moshiach today!!! 😃

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  48. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 3, 2020 at 10:08 PM

    This argues that nothing in the Book of Shmuel actually took place, re: David & Bath Sheba https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/did-king-david-sin-shabbos-56/
    If so, why did their love-child die, as per the punishment given to David by Hashem, through his Navi, Nathan?

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  49. You are not alone feeling that financial hardship pinch Mom. We know you'll get through this. Much love from our family to yours.

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  50. This argues that nothing in the Book of Shmuel actually took place, re: David & Bath Sheba
    Nothing took place???
    How was the child conceived?

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  51. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 7, 2020 at 11:50 PM

    I should add none of the criticisms of KD took place (according to that article and interpretation of the gemara).
    The child was conceived through means unacceptable to Hashem, and that is why he died.

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  52. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 8, 2020 at 12:13 AM

    my comments won't appear until approved

    so kindly tell me how you see the narrative of Sefer Shmuel, the critique of the Seer/Prophet Nathan, vs. the Gemara in Shabbat.

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  53. I understand the Gemara (Shabbos 56a) to mean, that according to the Tradition of the Sages, Bat Sheva had already gotten a bill divorce, before her husband, Uriah, went to war. Therefore, David’s liaison with Bat Sheva was not considered to be adultery, rather it was no more than an “unworthy” act, where the error was more in the timing of the liaison, rather than the act itself.

    Nevertheless, due to David’s high spiritual stature, this act was referred to as if it was a case of full blown adultery, for which the Nathan the Prophet chastised him, and David subsequently repented for this “sin”.

    The notion that David’s liaison with Bat Sheva was not considered to be adultery, is supported by the fact that the Nathan the Prophet did not command David to separate from Bat Sheva afterwards, even though according to Torah law, a woman who commits adultery, is forever prohibited to her paramour, even after her husband dies or divorces her.

    The fact that Bat Sheva was afterwards King David's main wife, and her son is the one chosen to continue the House of David after him, indicates that there was really no sin of adultery with another man's wife.

    Additionally, we find that when the boy who was born as a result of that initial contact with Bat Sheva, took ill, and was in danger of dying, King David cried much over him, and was greatly pained. If, in fact, Bat Sheva was considered a married woman at the time of liaison with David, then that boy was a “mamzer”, and King David should be rejoicing at his imminent death, since his presence in this world would only serve to remind everyone of his parents’ sin. This indicates that there was no issue regarding the boy’s lineage, and he was Halachically considered to be a kosher child.

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  54. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 8, 2020 at 2:46 AM

    I agree with the overall direction you are going in - although. It is not explicitly stated that he committed adultery or that the child of the union was mamzer. But he is excoriated by Nathan, to the point that his house will be the subject of ongoing internecine warfare, the sword will not depart from his house.

    There may have been certain legal priveleges of Kings, for example, on hefker beit din hefker or a Regal parallel, he could have dissolved the marriage by King's order etc.
    That his sin was forgiven does not detract from the fact that sin was committed. The curses brought upon him stil went through, his son dies and his Kingdom is slowly ripped apart. So maybe the boy wasn't technically a mamzer but maybe there was still some stigma around his birth from sin, and that is why he dies. There is a chazakah in the gemara somewhere, that a woman would rather see a child dead than for him to have the stain of mamzerut, and thus we presume that nobody is a mamzer. But it is nonsense to say KD would be rejoicing that his son is dying, totally nonsensical. The parable of Nathan perhaps gives a clue - the King was given everything, riches, power, good looks and access to all the maidens he wanted - yet he took a poor shepherd's only goat from him. And KD's response - the man should die - was him signing his own punishment decree!
    Thsi act was not just a small indiscretion that we hear about nowadays, it was the turning point in Jewish history - the hope and the promise that KD's throne would last forever, was destroyed, and everything went downhill from there. It was like a 2nd Adam and the Tree in the Garden of Eden, another shevirat haKelim. Nobody can do a tikkun for it, no Solomon, Not Chizliyahu, not Josiah. The Kingdom was finished by the end of the first Temple, and not resurrected in the 2nd.

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  55. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 8, 2020 at 1:52 PM

    the TenaCh seems to disagree with the particular Gemara in Shabbos - or at least give a different interpretation.

    The union with Bat Sheva was forbidden to KD, at least whilst her husband was alive. Hence, not only is there a pgam on the first son, but also on the next, Shlomo. Shlomo's reign and progeny are cursed, just like Kayin was cursed, until the Tikkun by Noach. And just like Yaakov's "deception" of his father , and subsequent blessing was to no avail, it was theft (in a spiritual sense) such that he tells Pharoah that his life has all been travail, he lost his son, and ends up in exile.
    It's the same story repeating itself. The "Apple", the blessing (Esav) Baas Sheva.. I see this common thread going throoughout the Torah, which is why even when Hezekiahu compels all Israel to keep Torah, it does not bring redmeption, and same with Josiah. each had their own little apple.

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  56. "the TenaCh seems to disagree with the particular Gemara in Shabbos - or at least give a different interpretation."

    The only way to properly study and understand Tanach, is via the lens of our Sages, Chazal.

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  57. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 10, 2020 at 6:34 PM

    Not all the commentators would do that. In any case, your interpretation of chazal is not final.
    Furthermore, certain halachot were given to Moshe at Sinai. Events 400 years later were not known to Moshe and also not part of oral law. Are you saying commentary on Nach was already known to each generation before it happened? David was also part of the tradition, so he must have known the outcome before he acted, according to this theory!

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  58. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 10, 2020 at 8:17 PM

    Many Rishonim learned the TeNach by Pshat, eg Ibn Ezra, Rashbam, Ramban to a great extent, Radak, etc.
    Also, when you make a statement about Chazal, there are other statements also, and other sources. Rabbis don't always have the same way of understanding Chazal, especially Misnagdim v Chassidim.
    The Talmud , or both Talmuds do not tell us how to learn talmud or which statements have priority over others. Thus, for example, Rambam and Raavad will differ on how to interpret Talmud.

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  59. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 10, 2020 at 11:49 PM

    To put it another way, a good way to study and understand Chazal is through the lens of studying Tanakh lishmoh

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  60. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2020 at 1:50 PM

    Here is a good example , where Ibn Ezra discards the Midrashic views of the age Isaac was when the Akeidah took place. I am quoting an article by Hershey Friedman on Ibn Ezra that I am reading:




    "According to the Midrash (Genesis Rabbah 56:8), Isaac (Yitzchak) was 37 years old
    at the time of the Akeidah (binding of Yitzchak). Ibn Ezra (Genesis 22:5) mentions the 12 Midrashic view that he was 37 and indicates that if it is a kabala (rabbinic tradition) he accepts it. However, logic does not support this opinion, because if Isaac was middle-aged
    and allowed himself to be sacrificed for God, then what he did was twice as great as what his
    father did. Ibn Ezra also rejects the opinion that he was five because the Torah states that he
    carried the wood, a task not usual for a child this young. Ibn Ezra concludes that he was 13
    years old and did not go willingly to be sacrificed. This is why Abraham did not tell him that
    he was the subject of the sacrifice. Rather, Abraham told him (Genesis 22:8): “God will
    provide for Himself the sheep for the burnt offering, my son.” Had Isaac known the truth, he
    would have run away"


    So, as I have said, Rishonim did not always take the same view as you are advocating.

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  61. אמת ליעקב בראשית פרק כב פסוק ד
    (ד) ביום השלישי.
    פירש"י וז"ל: למה איחר מלהראותו מיד כדי שלא יאמרו הממו וערבו וכו', עיין שם. והיינו כי מבאר שבע עד ירושלים לא יהיה דרך שלשת ימים, ומכ"ש לאברהם שעשה הכל בזריזות, ולפיכך הוקשה לו לרש"י שפיר, ומכ"ש לפי מה שפירש לקמן [פסוק י"ט] שהיה בחברון דודאי אין כאן שלשה ימים. ועיין בראב"ע שכתב: ביום השלישי שיצא מבאר שבע עכ"ל. ואזיל לשיטתו שכתב שם שיצחק קטן היה עדיין בשעת העקדה43. ועיין בסמוך..
    ביום השלישי וגו'.
    כתב ראב"ע וז"ל: ורבותינו ז"ל אמרו שהיה יצחק כאשר נעקד בן ל"ז שנים כו' ומדרך סברא אין זה נכון שהיה ראוי שתהיה צדקת יצחק גלויה ויהיה שכרו כפול משכר אביו שמסר עצמו ברצונו לשחיטה ואין בכתוב מאומה על יצחק כו' והקרוב אל הדעת שהיה קרוב לי"ג שנים והכריחו אביו ועקדו שלא כרצונו עכ"ל. ולפי פירושו צריך לומר בחתימת ברכת זכרונות שבתפלת מוסף: ועקדת יצחק לזרעו של יעקב תזכר, כי זרע יצחק אין להם להתפאר ביצחק אביהם שנעקד על גבי המזבח, דהרי עקדו אביו שלא לרצונו44.
    ומה שהקשה הראב"ע דאי נימא כדברי חז"ל א"כ מדוע אין בכתוב מאומה על יצחק וכל השכר על העקדה הוא של אברהם, הנה מה שהביאו לקושיא זו הוא מפני שמיאן בקבלתנו שאברהם אבינו מסר עצמו ליפול לתוך כבשן האש [אצל אור כשדים]45, ואף על פי כן בכל מקום אנו מזכירין זכותה של עקדה, והוא מפני שמסירת נפשו של בן עדיף, שלכן גם בעקדה עיקר הצדקות היא על אברהם [שמסר נפש בנו], וגם שם [באור כשדים] היה שלא על ידי מעשה וכאן על ידי מעשה שכבש רחמיו ורצה לשוחטו כדי לעשות רצון ד'.

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  62. https://www.etzion.org.il/en/lecture-15-rabbi-avraham-ibn-ezra-part-iii

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  63. http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%209%20Strickman.pdf

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  64. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2020 at 3:13 PM

    Ibn Ezra was a unique genius and Torah personality. He jokes about certain people, I think he has great respect even for the Karaites he debates with. On one commentary in Joshua 5, he implicitly admits that the verse supports the sadducee way of counting the omer, and warns us not to cite that verse on our lives, as it would be counterproductive. This shows (IMHO) him to be the most intellectually honest amongst the rishonim. (Which can be either a good or bad thing depending on one's prejudices).

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  65. no it doesnt
    he simply didnt think he had to accept any view other than his own - that is not the same as honesty

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  66. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2020 at 4:20 PM

    Depends if you are familiar with the verse. The plain meaning goes against the received Halacha. There is no rational reading that can make it different. His choice is to misread it and be dishonest, or be honest without supporting the other team. (Supporting the other team would be heretical).

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  67. so only one person was familiar with the verse and failed to reconcile it with received halacha and that that makes him your hero

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  68. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2020 at 6:14 PM

    If you remind yourself of Horayos, and hilchot Shogegot, (which you are more expert than anyone else here) - any received Halacha or decision is open to rational scrutiny at any time in the future. Horayot is as much part of the oral law as any other mesechta.
    It's not one person, it's many.
    The principle is expressed in this shiur
    https://audio.ohr.edu/track/id=1283

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  69. you are missing a key factor - zaken mamre

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  70. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2020/05/sages-not-concerned-with-absolute-truth.html

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  71. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 12, 2020 at 8:48 PM

    True. All the big disputes were disastrous -
    Rabbi yochanan v Resh Lakish _ big disaster, both end up dead.

    Rabbi Eliezer v rabban Gamliel, big disaster, Gamaliel ends up dying from eliezer's anguish.

    Akavya Ben mehalelel, is put in nidui, but maintains his truth. His advice to his son is that he will find people like himself if he is worthy.

    Rabbi Joshua v rabban Gamaliel, again, people rebel against Gamaliel.

    Beit shammai enacted 16 or 18 laws in 1 day _ disaster like golden calf. The dispute led to warfare and thousands were killed.

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  72. Ibn Ezra happens to be very controversial, and is hardly a good example of a mainstream approach to the study of Tanach.

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  73. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 13, 2020 at 1:33 PM

    The mainstream approach is to not study Tenach

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  74. First, speak for yourself only.
    Second, I was referring to those who do happen to study Tanach, and seek to do so properly.
    Third, the Ibn Ezra you cited is from Chumash, not Nach.

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  75. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 13, 2020 at 7:11 PM

    Those who do - no true Scotsman fallacy.
    Properly - according to you. Read what Rambam says about midrash.
    Ibn Ezra on king David is straight out of Shabbos, nothing un-Talmudic.

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  76. Kalonymus HaQatanMay 14, 2020 at 10:18 PM

    A problem with your fundamentalist approach is that you do not know the breadth of even Chazal and commentaries which you purport to know, and the cotnradictory positions. you hold on to one chestnut, like a squirrel bites and doesn't let go.
    Ralbag quotes Chazal, saying that the punishment for David being fourfold refers to 4 of his sons being killed! In other words, Chazal also entertain the position that he did sin, and was punished. Too bad you didn't do your homework!
    ויאמר נתן אל דוד אתה האיש. אמרו רבותינו ז''ל כי כמו ששפט דוד כן היה כמו שאמר תחת הכבשה ישלם ארבעתים כי הוא המית אוריה ומתו תחתיו ארבעה מבניו והם בן בת שבע אמנון ואבשלום ואדניה, והנראה בעיני כי על מה שאמר ישלם ארבעתים הוא שפטו הש''י שישכב איש עם הרבה מנשיו לעיני השמש והוא היה אבשלום שבא אל עשר פילגשי אביו אלא כי במה שאמר חי ה' כי בן מות האיש העושה זאת לא שפטו הש''י כפיו ולזה אמר לו נתן גם ה' העביר חטאתך לא תמות ובעבור שנעזר בחרב שונאיו להרוג אוריה היה דינו שתמשול חרב שונאיו על ביתו ימים רבים מצורף אל זה מה שעשה כנגד השם י''ת להשתדל בהריגתו כדי שיקח את אשתו לו לאשה ולפי שמאתו היתה ההתחלה בזאת העבירה גם הש''י רצה שתצמח רעה מביתו לשלם לו גמול עליה וכן היה כי מביתו צמחה רעת אמנון ואבשלום ושכב אבשלום את נשיו לעיני השמש:

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