Wednesday, September 4, 2019

Elul! Holiness and Yet Strife in Israel Rav Dovid Eidensohn

I am a deeply religious Jew as is my family, most of whom live in Israel. But I am told and have noticed myself, that although the Orthodox Torah community has many children and are eventually to become the majority of Israeli Jews, at this time the very strong religious suffer from some secular Israelis. Why?

It all began in the beginning of the twentieth century in 1917. Then, the British who were not winning the First World War, had a Jewish scientist Chaim Weizman who invented a new kind of bomb. The British used it and won the First World War.

Eventually the British army conquered and even entered Israel. I saw the pictures of that time. The General of the British army and Chaim Weizman stood at the side welcoming the marching British troops into Jerusalem. Next to them, slightly lower than these two, were the rabbi of Jerusalem Rabbi Yosef Shalom Sonnenfeld and another rabbi.

These years of the First World War saw entire countries in mortal combat. People suffered and the Jews surely suffered. As time went on, although originally the British backed Jews because of Chaim Weizman and his bomb, eventually, many Arabs openly hated Jews in Israel and plotted to kill them. The new British government now turned against the Jews. It began to forbid Jewish men to enter Israel. Finally, in 1948, after six million Jews had been murdered by the Germans, the nations of the world allowed Jews to have a tiny part of Israel for their new country.

The Israeli government has various small groups who vote for them. The election in Israel of a new government takes in consideration that the chamber of the government accepts 120 seats. But the large group of voters does not even have forty seats. So groups merge.
The group that can assemble 61 seats is appointed by the President of Israel to form a government. In the past five elections the Premier of Israel off and on has been Benyamin Netanyohu. Although not personally religious, his Likud Party is basically religious, and his style of assuming the Premiership has been to join his Likud to other parties usually of Orthodox Jews.

The previous effort of Netanyohu to remain Premier of Israel foundered when an opponent refused to join his party unless religious Jews served in the military. This caused the government to fail to find a single party that could produce the next Premier. So a new election was scheduled for a few weeks in September 17.

Another issue dividing the religious and secular is the extreme ruling of the great rabbis of the world that Jewish women may not serve not only in the Israeli army, but in any capacity at all decreed by the government. A Jewish woman is only allowed to be guided by her father and her husband, not the government, even if it requires them to pray every day.

These and similar issues have caused problems for years, although the Orthodox are rapidly becoming the major force in the Jewish community, and although the Arabs who are also represented in the Israeli government hate Jews and regularly some Arabs murder Jews.

Arabs who murder Jews are allowed to vote for Israeli governments. But some secular people maintain that Arabs may vote but religious people who oppose Arabs murdering Jews may not.

There are three things dividing the religious and irreligious. The religious believe in the Torah of HaShem. The secular do not in general accept the Torah. But some hate religious people. and some do not. We know that Moshiach is on the way, we hope soon!



  2. Re Boruch Kaplan speaks on the Chevron Massacre
    Its not what you think

  3. The future is written plainly in the past.

    There was a LOT of violence and theft involved in creating the State of Israel.

    The British did not just pick up and leave. They were killed and they were kidnapped. They had their equipment stolen.

    Jew fought against Jew. Jews and Arabs battled.

    Eventually, the State was established and democracy installed. More wars followed. In between wars, attacks continued.

    The entire State of Israel is an armed camp to this day. Enemies within and without. And the tension between groups of Jews remains, and is possibly increasing, as the demographics change.

    And yet we think that the democratic institutions instituted at the creation of the State will suffice to mediate the many disparate forces driving people in the political realm? Obviously, at least obvious to me, is that the only way to resolve the matter will be a massive civil war within the State of Israel, with a concurrent military campaign involving other nations.

    Unless, as the post above states, the Moshiach manages to reconcile things.

  4. Sorry reb Dovid shlita, it's not so accurate. The Jewish people saw the futility of reform , assimilation, galus, persecution and the shtetl.
    Majority of israelis believe in the Torah and in G-d. The secular are a smaller group than you think. The traditional are much larger, keep kosher, observe yom kippur, bris, and also serve in the army.
    Arabs who kill are largely from the territories, and do not vote.
    All religious who are citizens can vote. Perhaps the eidah refuse citizenship or the vote.
    Milhemet mitzva is defending ourselves from imminent threat. Hilchot rodeif apply all times. So for religious men, at least, there is an obligation to defend.
    Some of the gedolim you mention claim the army doesn't need frum soldiers. However, manpower is always required, and the army has to be prepared at all times to defend or go to war. Such gedolim who don't know the facts, their psak is based on fallacious assumptions.

  5. The Eim HaBanim Semeichah points out that when there was an opportunity for mass Jewish immigration to Israel in the very early years of the Mandate, the Chareidi community sat down and said "It's assur to move there! Besides, Zionism is the work of the Satan and nothing will come of it."
    A few decades later there finally was mass immigration from Europe, including what was left of Torah Jewry. The Chareidim got to israel and said "Chalilah! Everything is trief here!"
    And the EHS points out: The same people who had a chance to make the Zionist project more Torah-obedient had they participated, complained bitterly when they finally joined and found it wasn't!

  6. The State of Israel is a Shtetl. Or if you say it's too big to to be a Shtetl, then its's a Shtot. The Shtot of Israel.

    The Shtetl was land owned by non-Jews in which Jews had the right to live there. Until the government in the Land of Israel acknowledges that the land belongs to G-d and He gave it to the Jews to live there to serve him, the State of Israel will remain a Shtetl.

    I'm not trolling, I'm saying it like it is. This is not something I will debate here.

  7. Not trolling, just dictating.
    The Jewish state is founded on the Tenakh, and the beit hamikdash. It's only the secular atheists and the eidah people who oppose the Jewish control of Har habayit.

  8. Rabbanut is a state institution, which can even sentence people to jail. Hence you are talking nonsense

  9. They also called America the treife medina. Now they won't leave, and celebrate thanksgiving.

  10. I won't argue about tye State of Israel being a Shtetl. But I will argue about what a Shtetl is.

    Jews had the power to set up their own government within the Shtetl.

  11. This is silly. Where in Tanach or the Bais Hamikdash to we find a concept of non-Jews being "Israeli". Israel means Jew. How do I know this? That's how the term is used in Halacha.

    Yet, Arab citizens of the State of Israel are called Israelis.

  12. In those days they were canaanim. The establishment of the state is based on the claim that the Torah says God promised us this land. The capital is Jerusalem because it was where Shlomo built the temple there. BTW, we did not out the 7 nations in the time of Joshua or Saul. So perhaps it wasn't a Jewish state then either.

  13. "A new kind of bomb"
    I'm pretty sure he was just supplying them with much-needed Acetone (He was an accomplished chemist), without which they would have been in deep trouble during WW1, in supplying their own explosives for their soldiers in combat. Your history lesson also ignores important things like the Jewish Legion, as well as the San Remo Conference. (It was not just the British who were convinced that the Mandate should be given to the Jews, but in fact all the Great Powers). But ok.
    The haredi parties are not and will never "become the major force" of the Jewish community in Israel because their goal is not to lead a country, they have no vision in order to do so (philosophically the maintain an opposition to controlling or running a country), and no leadership capabilities. They are by design a special interest group that sits on the sidelines and tries its best to make sure its needs are met by whomever is in power and doing the leading. It's rather a shame. And of course the bitter opposition to zionism (and the old battle that was already lost so may decades ago, but they refuse to admit they lost and refuse to admit it has long ended), plays a big role in refusing to take ownership of our country or aspire to leadership, and rather the remaining as a special interest/lobby "minority" group. That won't change just by virtue of the numbers growing. It requires more than that.

  14. Any other state in world that has only Jewish holidays, the Sabbath as day of rest? A rabbanut that has monopolies on marriage and divorce?

  15. The 7 Nations didn't vote in elections.

  16. Oh yes, you are against democracy, fair enough. things can still be improved, and they can be sent elsewhere.

  17. When shaul hamelech failed to kill amalek, did that turn Israel in to a shtetl?

  18. Are you kidding? Do you know the extent that the private and public sectors cater to milliins of people who identify themselves with a certain word beginning with the letter "C"? And here I refer to tourist dollars.

  19. the point being that the offices, supermarkets etc are closed, and the Knesset is closed.

    Ezra also faced problems with chilonim, as did Hezekiah. You are simply saying that Moshiach hasn't come yet, but most rational people are aware of this fact.

  20. Right. That is my point. It's a Shtetl. As it was at the time of Ezra. The land was controlled by another nation or nations for much if not all of the Bais Sheni. In fact, Chanuka took place while the land was still under Greek control.

  21. Yes, I agree with the comparison, to some degree. Not sure about the shtetl, isn't that just a small village?
    A small village with airports, universities and nukes!

  22. It's just that I get tired sometimes when people say those outside of Eretz Yisrael are in Galus, but those inside aren't. We are all, as you acknowledged, in Galus until the Final Redemption is completed.

    So, yeah, calling the State a Shtetl is over the top. I was just resonding viscerally to, "The Jewish people saw the futility of reform , assimilation, galus, persecution and the shtetl."

  23. It is galus, I am in Galus in England right now.
    look at what the Torah says about he end of days:

    5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good,and multiply thee above thy fathers.

    So yes, there is a teshuva component, ther is an end of days component, but it is not saying we will be gathered into Monsey or Stamford Hill. It is specifically the Land of our Fathers.

    I don't think galus cna aplpy to within Eretz Yisrael, . maybe other terms, like secularim, avodah zarah, but it is not galus, it is geula.
    The Lubavitcher Rebbe gave a sicho about life in messianic times - the Rambam says that Moshaich will restore the cities of refuge, which ia Torah commandment. So there will be satges of the geula, when crimes still take place and people need to take refuge.

  24. Just to further clarify, you make it sound so sinister. Like Chaim Weitzmann was some bloodthirsty guy out to blow people up. He was a loyal British citizen who patriotically did his duty for his country, helping it defeat its enemies, and at the same time he tried leveraging this favor with his home country to help his own brethren with statehood. Being sympathetic to the revisionist zionists, I'm not the biggest fan of Weitzmann's style back then, but give the man some credit.

    In fealty and deference to some kind of antizionist dogma, are we now supposed to lament that the German animals lost WW1 thanks to Weitzmann's help? Please, let's get a grip.

  25. You'd be surprised. Some of the nuts from the NK also blame the rise of Zionism for the Holocaust, via the British defeat of Germany in WW1 (which was a big humiliation for the Germans). they do this by blaiming Zionists like Weizman, Rothschild etc for financing and abetting the British victory!

  26. "Insufficient supplies of acetone when the war broke out proved
    another major challenge to the British. Acetone has a long history and

    by the early 20th century it had become well established as a versatile

    solvent. The British desperately needed large quantities of the solvent

    for the production of cordite in the ever increasing amounts required to
    meet the demands of its army and navy. The solvent was also employed to
    make the fire-resistant cellulose acetate dope used to stiffen and
    waterproof the canvas wings of military aircraft, and to make 2,4,6-trinitrophenylmethylnitramine, a high explosive commonly known as ‘tetryl.’
    If it had not been for Chaim Weizmann’s
    discovery in 1912 that acetone could be produced by the fermentation of grain, Britain would have found it difficult to sustain its war effort
    for four years. Weizmann developed the fermentation process on an
    industrial scale for the British war effort and later became known as
    the father of industrial fermentation. He was also a passionate
    supporter of the Zionist movement which aimed to establish a homeland in
    Palestine for the Jews. In 1949, he became the first president of the
    State of Israel."

  27. Heleni haMalkah, Agrippas, Yanai all non Jews. First two good, last bad.

  28. And yeshivit of several thousand talmidim. And a few thousand little yeshivot, where the RY is doing very well him$elf.

  29. They are completely insane. It's sad when orthodox/haredi antizionists resort to parroting their nonsensical arguments and mental gymnastics in desperation to "fight" against Jewish nationalism.

  30. And some sheep

  31. Not sure what the point is you are making. Are you saying that by definition anything that happened in Eretz Yisrael in the past is by definition a paradigm for the future?

  32. The point is, it seems, that even the 2nd Bayit era, we had all kinds of imperfections, (as we did in the first). So to argue that the State is less than a state or that it is Galus, is false. The 1st and 2nd Tempe periods also had their problems - but galus was only when there was physical exile. The neviim wrote critiques of the religious and moral standings of the people, but Eichah is a different quality altogether. That is what divides us - many Jews see Yoam haatzmaut at the end of Eichah, whereas many chareidim see it as the worst Eichah possible.

  33. What you describe regarding the Haredi parties is pretty much a false narrative, point by point, one after another.

    1. The orthodox will become the major force of the Jewish community in Israel by sheer demographics. Religious Jews in Israel have the highest birthrates, and will eventually outnumber the secular ones who unfortunately are self-destructing into oblivion. Add to the mix, Aliyah, which is predominantly orthodox.

    2. Yes, the bitter opposition to secular Zionism is still there, but that hasn't stopped the Haredi parties from taking the reins of power in the Israeli government wherever and whenever feasible.

    3. Orthodox Jews are perfectly capable of running the country, and have demonstrated this by being part of the parliamentary process, and even ministers and cabinet members. Orthodox Jews are an integral part of the army, and when allowed, can serve as generals too.

    4. Orthodox Jews have no opposition to running a purely halachic state. The problem is that currently the state has many secular aspects to it, which realistically and ideologically precludes taking the reins of power at this time.

    5. The orthodox parties are not sitting on the sidelines. Being part of the parliamentary process, currently allows them to have input in shaping and defining the Jewish character of the country. Actively serving in various government positions, is preparing them to gradually take over the reins, as time goes by and the old secular guard continues to demographically disappear.

  34. Hareidi (eg shas, utj) and dati orthodox (Zionist) have very different approaches to the state. Utj is like meretz or the Arab parties with respect to the State.
    One single issue, eg geirus, mamzerut, land for piece, shemitta etc will divide the orthodox.

    Yes , orthodox dati do serve as generals eg effi eitam. They are miles apart from shas, utj or eidah (who don't even vote).
    Traditional also have high birth rates. Hareidi simply want shtetl towns like bnei brak, kiryat sefer etc. They oppose the army, but if forced some will do the minimum required. How many chareidi career soldiers can you find?

    The hareidi model cannot self sustain. That is because the Torah opposes it. YOU are envisaging an Erdogan Style takeover, like they did in turkey Lehavdil. Difference is, turkey has universities, army, industry etc. These are all anathema to hareidi ideology.
    Also, you have already demonstrated your insane Khomeini style extremism, by your call to imprison all secular Jews. Based on the alleged psak of the eidah ilui. With such a program, there would be a civil war. However, the majority of hareidim do not share your insane views. They will accept badatz kashrus, but that's it. Your vision will never come to fruition. The Palestinians have made all the same predictions as you on demographic trends, but failed.

  35. I never called to imprison all secular Jews. That is LIE.

    I have studied Israel for decades, and I stand by my comments. As time time goes by, I see a progression. The religious leadership is gradually expanding its presence, involvement, and influence in the Israeli government. This progression is advancing as time goes by.

  36. Yes, you said its better to be in a cell than to sin = secularism. You cited a teshuva where the meishiv jokes about imprisoning the secularists.

  37. Not really. In Oslo days, Rav Shach said it was assur to join labour government. Bibi's days are numbered, and likud have no replacement of his stature / gadlus.
    Plus, the settlements are intrinsic to the right wing, whereas the hareidi parties could not care less about them.

  38. So you're admitting that you misquoted me, and you also misunderstood the sefer who discussed this as a purely academic question.
    I repeat:
    I never called to imprison all secular Jews. That is LIE.

  39. History is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
    Read my point number 4, which also held true in Rav Shach's days.

  40. no, you said it is better to be in a prison than free to exercise free will. It was the specific case of whethe to intervene to free someone already in prison for an unspecified crime (in Zalman's case it was rape).

    However, you extended this to people who sin in general, eg mechalel shabbes.
    However, thsi is all moot, since theEidah do not want political power in Israel, they oppose any jewish government prior to Moshiach. The Griz said that even if the Chofetz Chaim was running the country, it would still be assur.

  41. You're still slandering me, saying that I called to imprison all secular Jews.
    That is LIE.
    I'm not an Eidah person, nor their spokesperson.
    Bringing in the Eidah is a straw man.
    My comment was about the Haredi and religious parties in Israel.
    What do you have to add to the discussion?

  42. History is very relevant. Typically, the sources that you run to use when it suits you, all become irrelevant when it doesn't suit you (eg the gemara, poskim, gedolim etc.)

    Rav Shach was lukewarm to the State, but made a lot of noise in opposition to whatever they did.

    I quote you "4. Orthodox Jews have no opposition to running a purely halachic state"

    If the above is true, then you would not deem people like Bere, or lehavdil the Griz as "Orthodox", since he totally opposed the State. The Griz said that even if the Chofetz Chaim was running the country, it would still be assur. I am not sure what the current Eidah say or do not say, but in their heyday, Amram blau, and their other big names all opposed the State.

    Which shows the absuridty of you claim. Orthodoxy is a very broad church, if I may use an English term.

    There is a large DL community, which itself has a spectrum of Hardal to MO, and they all see the religious significance of the State, and vary on having a halachic satte or not.
    Similarly, there is a very wode spectrum in the Hareidi world, some begrudgingly accept teh State, some are happy but keep shtu, and some like the Belzer Rebbe and others would even celebrate.

    Then there ar limitations to halachic stae. What would be the punishment for hillul shabbes for example? Nobody in the Yeshiva world thinks we can administer the death penaly today. What about the army? Would the Hareidi leadership close it down completely or only on Shabbat? If the Hareidi Pm would prevent calling up any hareidi for the army, do you think the Secularists and the military would accept a halachic state? They would put a few tanks around the Knesset, or its new home in Bnei brak, and do a coup d'etat , like was done in Turkey many times.

  43. below is the discussion, so please clarify what you said:

    IsraelReader Kalonymus Anonymus • 23 days ago

    you understood the severity of sinning, you would agree that it's
    better to be locked up in a cell, and avoid sin, then to walk around
    free, and sin.1


    Kalonymus Anonymus IsraelReader • 20 days ago

    "If you understood the severity of sinning, you would agree that it's
    better to be locked up in a cell, and avoid sin, then to walk around
    free, and sin."

    Talmud in Sotah speaks about "makkot perushin" and how they destroy the
    world. It is precisely this type of religiosity that you and many
    others adhere to, a.k.a chasid shoteh. Be frum tot he point where it
    kills you, destroys you, and your family.

    IsraelReader Kalonymus Anonymus • 20 days ago • edited

    More name calling...
    תשובות והנהגות כרך א סימן תעו

    שאלה: יהודי תפוס בבית סוהר האם להשתדל להוציאו משם אף שיעבור בזה על איסור נדה באשתו

    ממקור מוסמך שביקשו מרבינו החזו"א זצ"ל להשתדל ולפעול עבור אחד שנידון
    למאסר לזמן ארוך, ושאל האם הוא שומר על טהרת המשפחה, והשיבו לו שלא שומר
    ונסתלק ולא רצה לעסוק בשחרורו, וראויים הדברים לגאון בישראל כמותו!

    בו אני נוהג בעזהשי"ת כשמבקשים ממני לסדר שלום בית אצל חפשיים אני נמנע
    כיון שמסייע בזה לעבור על איסור נדה, וכבר דרשו חז"ל (שבועות מז ב) לא תנאף
    לא תנאיף לא לסייע לניאוף.

    ויש להטעים הדבר שבעצם במ"ע קיימא לן
    (כתובות פו ב) מכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו, ופירשו המפרשים דלפני שעבר גם על
    ל"ת כופין עד שתצא נפשו למונעו, (עיין בר"ן חולין קל"ב: דגם בל"ת קודם שעבר
    מכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו כדי שלא יעבור, וכן פשיטא ליה לרע"א בחידושי
    כתובות פ"ו. דגם בל"ת אמרינן הך דינא דכופין אותו ומיהו הרמב"ן בשיר השירים
    ד', י"א כתב דרק במצות עשה כופין דחמיר מל"ת ומכין אותו עד שתצא נפשו,
    משא"כ בל"ת. וכ"נ בקצוה"ח סי' ג' סק"ב במשובב שם). ואם כן כאן אף שסובל
    במאסר, הלוא ראוי לו לסבול כן שמונעים אותו בכך לעבור על איסורי כרת דנדה
    שדינו כעריות.

    ולפי זה בנידון דידן אף שגזרו עליו מאסר חמש שנים אין
    אנו מצווין להשתדל לשחררו, ולהיפך טוב שישב שמה ולא יעבור תדיר על איסור
    כרת ר"ל, ואם היתה השאלה באה לפני בי"ד כשידינו תקיפה, היו כופין אותו
    בכהאי גוונא אם אינו רוצה לשמוע, שהיו סוגרין אותו בחדר שלא יבוא לידי

    Kalonymus Anonymus IsraelReader • 20 days ago

    name calling? Oh, you don't like that part of the Talmud?1

  44. History is very relevant, but not to this discussion, which is focused on Israel’s future, and the role that Israel's Haredi parties are taking in it.

    I see that Orthodox Jews are becoming more and more experienced in running a country, and look forward to the State of Israel becoming more and more Torah compliant. This will gradually happen with the decline of the secularists, and Orthodox Jews achieving a greater foothold in Israeli society.

    According to Torah law, the death penalty for the capital crimes listed in the Torah, can only be administered by a Sanhedrin. Since there is no recognized Sanhedrin today and there also will not be one until Moshiach comes, the discussion is therefore moot.

    The Torah has guidelines as to how a Jewish army is meant to be run. The concern for “Pikuach Nefesh” overrides any Shabbos issues that may present themselves.

    You are correct that the secularists would not accept a halachic state, which is why I noted (#4) that taking the reins of power at this time is impossible.

  45. I stand behind my comments and don't deny them.
    You simply continue to misunderstand what was was written.
    Nowhere in my words I there a CALL to imprison all secular Jews.
    That is slanderous LIE.

  46. ואם היתה השאלה באה לפני בי"ד כשידינו תקיפה, היו כופין אותו
    בכהאי גוונא אם אינו רוצה לשמוע, שהיו סוגרין אותו בחדר שלא יבוא לידי

  47. Those were not my words. Those are the words of Rav Sternbuch, who is also NOT calling to do so today.

    He’s discussing this purely as a theoretical academic question, what would be the halacha IF ידינו תקיפה, when we all know that it NOT the situation today.

  48. Ramchal teaches me to ignore the author of a statement, and look at the content instead. besides, you cited this to buttress your own position.

    It is not purely academic, it is practical. he is talking about the time when you have an Erdogan-like control over the State. It is impractical in a different sense, since in Turkey and Iran, which are models for the Judeo-Islam relgiion, even the extremists see it as a "mitzvah" to have a military and to serve in it, whereas in hareidi extremism, they do not. Since there would be no Hareidi police or military, they would not have control of the state. hence no prisons either.

    but none of this is the view of the mainstream Hareidi leadership like the Chazon ish, Rav Moshe , Rav Henkin, Rav Meltzer all ztl.

  49. You ignored his words "כשידינו תקיפה".
    Is that the situation today?
    If no, then it's an academic discussion.

    You sound like you're opposed to having a fully Torah
    compliant society, which is not considered politically correct in today's day and age. But the Torah is timeless, immutable, and eternally relevant.

    If you're opposed to having a Torah society, there's a good
    chance that you won't be invited to be part of it. But don't be offended. After all, you also wouldn't want to live in a society where Beis Din will have the power to coerce you to do any of the mitzvos you may not be keeping.

  50. Man, you are funny.
    "Orthodox Jews are perfectly capable of running the country, and have demonstrated this by being part of the parliamentary process"
    Haredim being "part of a the parliamentary process" and actually aspiring to and demonstrating national leadership are two very different things. They don't have leadership aspirations. And philosophically, they cannot. They view themselves as a minority being hosted by a foreign govt, inside a foreign entity (until moschiach comes, of course), just like if they lived in North America, Europe, or Timbuktu. The demographics don't magically change that, no matter how high they get. And as they get higher, you will also see more factions develop so that they can remain special interest groups.

    "Orthodox Jews are an integral part of the army,"

    It's hilarious when haredim try to take credit to their society for things that the national religious are doing by using a blanket term like "orthodox" to combine everyone into one camp. Meanwhile, back in reality, the haredi leadership despises the national religious camp (and they spread that sentiment to the rank and file yeshiva man), and haredi society not only expresses hatred for the army but even for its own sons who dare to sign up for it and get attacked by their own communities. What a disgrace.

    The rest of your post is much of the same theme, but these two misleading comments really stood out.

  51. Does that include coerced gittin?
    I wouldn't want to be coerced by people in the eidah. They don't like being coerced into the mitzva of the army.
    YOU are speaking of a halachic state. I think that's total fantasy. Even Hizkiyahu hamelech was unable to coerce everyone to keep pesach, mitzvot. The secular tribes mocked him.
    A halachic / shulchan Aruch state is impossible. It will collapse.

  52. I wouldn't accept your interpretations of what is Torah compliant.

  53. I'd like to see a beit hamikdash, but it's not practical today. It might be in 50, 100 years, even before the moshiach. It's not academic.

  54. That's right - the Modern/Zionist Orthodox are only "Orthodox" when it comes to a PR job like this. When the hareidim are discussing thier Kashrus, their conversions, their yeshivas, then they are reform, or Amalek.
    One Shas leader called those who wear knitted kippa "Amalek", because one politician wants to recruit hareidim into the army.

  55. Many Hareidim mock /attack heter mechira, but are there any who forbid heter Iska /prozbul?

    Any hareidim who tell their businessmen to forgive their loans every 7 years?

  56. Galus is not only physical. Galus from the Shechina is Galus. Without the Bais Hamikdash we remain in Galus. The creation of a State did not magically end the Galus; neither does the population growth. Did the Rabbis of Sfas hundreds of years ago claim the Galus was over? Did the followers of the Gra who made Aliya claim the Galus ended? Curious that Jews, some of whom participated in ripping Shabbos observance away from new immigrants and even sometimes ripping their children away, claim Galus is over and suddenly it's over.

  57. I don't think you understand the halacha or the TeNaKha

    IN the Tenakh, there were situations which were far mroe secular or shal we say evil than today. Look at queen Jezebel for example, murdering the neviim, chasing Eliyahu into the desert. Idolatry was all the rage. there is no actual idolatry in Israel today, perhaps the secular atheists, but they don't worship graven images.

    From Rambam in Hilchot Melachim :

    11;1 -

    as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states:

    God will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will
    again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, God will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land....

    Ch.12 ; 2

    Our Sages taught: "There will be no
    difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms."

    you see, the central foundation of Messianic age, as per halacha, is an independent Jewish state. When Moshaich ben David arrives is not specificed, it is a long , natural historical process.

    (Hal. 1 - Do not presume that in the Messianic
    age any facet of the world's nature will change or there will beinnovations in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.)

  58. See

  59. thank you, a very interesting piece

    In Meah Shearim, they run gasoline fueled generators to produce electricity - that is something they pull off within that small community, but that is it.
    But it's not just Shabbat, since even safek pikuah nefesh, and you can violate the Shabbat.
    Hareidi world stems from small shtetles around Eastern Europe, again like Meah Shearim.

    One great Talmid Chacham who was Rav of the army, was forced to draw upon Tenach, to deal with the issues that come up in wartime, since there wasn't enough information in Shas. Even shas is incomplete - in that several orders of Mishnah never developed a Gemara on them. How then, can the reliance on Shas and Shulchan Aruch be sufficient to deal with all possible situations?

  60. A very famous Rav supported the Zionist project, and defended even the secular Jews in Eretz Yisrael, who were working the land. Many people complained to him about defending the secularists, but he said they are involved in the mitzvah of building up the Land.
    Now we have had prolonged discussions about Rav Kook's views, and why some apparently quesiton his Orthodoxy because he gave Tocheicha at the opening of the Hebrew U, or gave a hesped for Herzl.
    My story is about a very great gadol Hador from Latvia. Rav Kook, being a Latvian, tried to see something positive about every jew, which is not always possible in the hareidi world. But the Gadol hador was considered greater than his contemporaries, even the Chafetz Chaim and Rav Chaim disagreed with him, but still accepted him as the gaon hador.
    Alas,I am not talking about rav Kook. I am talking about Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Ohr sameach, whose chiddushei Torah amazed even rav Chaim Soloveitchik ztl. It was Rav meir Simcha who saw the mitzva of even the secular zionista who were building up EY! He was not a Rosh Yeshiva, but a community Rav, but his views were sought by the generation, because of his Tzidkus and gadlus.


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