Wednesday, April 25, 2012

R' Broyde's Coerced Get & Protesting - a critique

Some Thoughts on Rabbi Michael J Broyde's Article on a Coerced GET and Protesting When a Man Withholds a Jewish Divorce

by Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn

Rabbi Broyde's article about protesting to help Agunahs is filled with errors, which I display here. It is part and parcel of the new Torah emanating from the modern YU rabbis. Rabbi Gedaliah Schwartz, head of BDA Beth Din, sent away a couple seeking a GET with no GET by annuling their marriage on the grounds of a ridiculous claim of MEKACH TAOSE when after I spoke to him I am convinced he had no grounds for that. Rabbi Herschel Schachter, Rosh Yeshiva at YU and major posek for the OU, invented a new Torah to permit physical and unbearable emotional coercion in the case of MOOS OLEI with his vivid imagination, as he airly blows away the Rashbo, Rabbi Yosef Caro, Radvaz, Shach and Chazon Ish with a logic that was invented in Gehenum. He quotes nobody who agrees with him, and doesn't display any rabbonim of today who agree with him, but he has helped Agunoth! Posek HaDor Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev shlit”o told me that any Beth Din that invents new ways to help Agunoth outside of accepted halacha that he takes away from them the Chezkas Beth Din, the authority of being a Beth Din. Thus, we have a situation where modern Orthodox divorces may not be recognized by others, and the children of these invented “help” for Agunoth may be mamzerim.

Let us begin.
The article begins by assuring us that “the use of social pressure – picketing, boycotting, withholding aliyot, and the like – in such a situation...there is no problem of a coerced get in such a case.”
This is completely wrong, as we will show, because it is obvious from the great Poskim I will quote with nobody disagreeing that it is a coerced GET and invalid GET to picket and humiliate a husband in MOUS OLEI especially when this is done in public. In fact, even to shame him not in public is a problem of a coerced and therefore invalid GET. This is stated clearly by the Chazon Ish.

The article then begins with the PIRUD of Rabbeinu Tam, whereby Rabbeinu Tam permitted a passive ostracizing of a husband who refused to give a GET. The article quotes a rabbinical council of great rabbinical judges who permitted ostracizing the husband. Therefore, says Rabbi Broyde, we see that one may ostracize a husband who does not give a GET. But this is false advertising, as we will explain. The case of the rabbinical council involved a couple where the man was unable to have children and the wife demanded a GET so she would not be left in her old age with nobody to care for her. In this case, the Talmud clearly teaches that there must be a GET. On the other hand, Rabbi Broyde is talking about the common problem of wives demanding a GET often after they had children from the husband, called MOUS OLEI (my husband is repulsive to me). This is different, as we will explain.

The Shulchan Aruch EH 77 talks about a woman who demands a GET because her husband repels her. Nowhere is any coercion allowed or mentioned there. Even Rabbeinu Tam is not mentioned there, even though he permits only passive ostracizing. In EH 154 we find the laws of husbands who are commanded by the Torah to divorce their wives. There are two categories of these. One is where the Talmud commands that we force the GET, such as when a person marries a woman forbidden to him. Another category is when the Talmud does not talk about coercion, but merely says the husband must give a GET. The latter case of a sterile husband is what the rabbinical council ruled, when the wife demands a GET. In such a case the Talmud clearly demands a GET but does not command coercion. The Ramo suggests that we use the passive coercion of Rabbeinu Tam. But the Ramo does not allow passive ostracizing in chapter 77 for a woman who is repulsed by her husband. Thus, the implication is clear: passive ostracizing is forbidden unless the Talmud clearly demands a GET, such as when the husband is sterile. But with MOUS OLEI, there may not be any coercion, even passive coercion.

The greatest authorities, the Shach and the Chazon Ish, forbid even passive ostracizing of Rabbeinu Tam, even in the case of the sterile husband, claiming that in latter generations such an ostracizing was too strong a coercion and constituted an invalid GET. Maharabil states that nobody ever heard of rabbis permitting this. Therefore, for MOUS OLEI, when even the Shulchan Aruch does not permit even passive coercion, surely it is forbididen to do the passive PIRUD or ostracizing of Rabbeinu Tam. But in the case of the sterile husband, the Ramo permits it, and the Gro and others agree, therefore, the rabbinical council mentioned above permitted it for the case of a sterile husband. This has nothing to do with Rabbi Broyde's article which is about the common “agunah” who left her husband often after having children and demands as GET. Such a husband may not be given the Pirud of Rabbeinu Tam, at least, by the proof that I cited from the Shulchan Aruch and supported by Shach and Chazon Ish and Maharabil.

We now come to Rabbi Broyde's brazen misquoting of the Gro. He leaves out the key phrase, and thus makes it sound as if the Gro supports ostracizing all husbands, such as in MOUS OLEI. But the GRO as we mention before, is commenting on the Ramo in EH 154 that does not deal with MOUS OLEI but only with husbands who are commanded by the Talmud to divorce. The Gro explains why PIRUD of Rabbeinu Tam is permitted with someone commanded clearly in the Talmud to divorce: “(154:67) because he can be saved from this by going to another city. And whenever we don't do something to him physically it is not called ISUI or coercion. And all of this we do to him because he transgressed on the words of the sages.” Thus, the final phase says that this PIRUD is only permitted when the Talmud clearly commands a divorce. But in MOUS OLEI we don't assume that the husband is wrong and he must divorce his wife and lose his children. Therefore, it is forbidden to ostracize him.

But let us ask Rabbi Broyde, even according to your abridged version of the GRO, the ostracizing is only permitted because the husband can find another city where nobody will ostracize him. But today what city is free from the protestors sent by Rabbi Schachter and ORA to torment a husband? Therefore, what ORA is doing is forbidden by the GRO, and as we explained, it was never permitted by the Ramo in the case of MOUS OLEI to begin with.

But let us return to the ruling of the sages of the above rabbinical council ruling. What kind of ostracizing did they decree on the sterile husband? ONLY PASSIVE THINGS such as not honoring him and ignoring him. But who permitted ORA to publicly demonstrate and humiliate a husband? And especially in a case of MOUS OLEI? This is the brazen invention of Rabbi Broyde.

Now we come to another brazen invention, this time a bald lie about HaGaon Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l. In Igres Moshe EH III:44 Reb Moshe discusses a broken marriage where the wife will not return to the husband, but the husband won't give a GET. May Beth Din coerce the husband to give a GET? Rabbi Broyde quotes Reb Moshe that this is permitted, because “Compulsion in a case where divorce is truly desired does not create an invalid GET.” But Reb Moshe there says just the opposite. Although he does mention the idea and says it has some merit, he refuses to use it saying, “we must not rely on this.” 

So Rabbi Broyde slithers along while we are gasp in admiration for his proof, and then, some lines later, he slips in “While it is true that Rabbi Feinstein is hesitant to rely on this rationale absent other lenient factors...” Hurry, he is wriggling out of his lie. 

Here is his full statement there: ““While it is true that Rabbi Feinstein is hesitant to rely on this rationale absent other lenient factors, it is clear that in cases where no real coercion is used – but only harchakot d'Rabbeinu Tam – Rabbi Feinstein's reasoning is fully applicable.” First, note the weasel words. He doesn't say that “Rabbi Feinstein would permit it.” Even he is afraid to invent such a statement in the name of Reb Moshe. But what he does is to apply his own logic that surely that which Reb Moshe rejected would not be rejected for the mild coercion of Rabbeinu Tam's ostracizing.

But wait. He wriggled in the wrong direction. Because Rabbi Broyde was obviously not aware of another teshuva of Reb Moshe whereby he consigns Rabbeinu Tam's pirud to the status of a very serious coercion, more so than coercing with money which most poskim consider very strong coercion even invalidating the GET. (EH I:137) If so, Reb Moshe surely would not agree with Rabbi Broyde to permit the Pirud of Rabbeinu Tam because it is a minor coercion.

Incredibly, Rabbi Broyde concludes “the use of social pressure to encourage the giving of a get in a situation in which the couple has already separated, a secular divorce has been granted and the marriage is over for both of them – and even more so where a bet din has issued a seruv against the husband – never creates a situation of Get Meuso.” He permits active public humiliation of the husband, even though public humiliation is considered murder in the Talmud.

Note that he never mentions that Rabbeinu Tam permits only passive ostracizing, and that the Chazon Ish EH 108 forbids even passive ostracizing and considers active humiliation such as that practiced by ORA to make an invalid GET. Nor does he even mention the Rashbo VII:414 that it is forbidden to coerce a husband with MOUS OLEI at all, and that even the sterile husband may not be humiliated, certainly not the husband of MOUS OLEI. Also Rabbi Yosef Caro in Bais Yosef, 154, Radvaz שו"ת רדב"ז חלק ד סימן קיח quote the Rashbo. The Shach at the end of GEVURAS ANOSHIM forbids even passively ostracizing the husband to obtain a GET at all. 

Just brazeneness matched only by his ignorance. But without the ignorance, even the brazeness would have a hard time.

219 comments :

  1. I'm sure many of us still recall the letter from Rav Miller shlita, in Toronto, and the nice names he called Rabbi Broyde after Rabbi Broyde published a "kaf zchus" for married women who don't cover their hair. (Does his wife cover her hair?)

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    1. http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2011/01/r-michael-broyde-missed-boat-re.html

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    2. A classic illogical straw man argument. Nonsense and beneath contempt.

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    3. Bob,
      What you write is a classic straw man logical fallacy at best.
      Why do you engage in such?

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  2. Sorry but the first few lines of the first paragraph required me to stop reading. I'm very disappointed.
    KT
    Joel Rich

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    1. I agree with Joel.

      Though I read Rabbi Broyde's article and actually did force myself through the rebuttal, so called, here.

      Honestly I don't see the supposed errors in Rabbi Broyde's thinking. We still haven't really looked at any of the Teshuvot that Rav Ovadia brought in vol 6 of Yabia Omer, from when he was sitting on the Beit Din HaGadol with Rav Eliashiv and when he was his most activist about freeing agunot. I don't think that Rabbi Broyde's reliance on Rav Ovadia can be limited to the one Teshuva. That one Teshuva represents a small part of a greater outlook of Rav Ovaida that seems to be quite at odds with what Rav Dovid Eidensohn believe the halakha to be.

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    2. You apparently agree that this teshuva of Rav Ovadia does not support Rabbi Broyde's claims. The fact that other teshuva might is not relevant to this critique. If there are others which are more relevant he should have cited them.
      His citation of Rav Moshe as agreeing with him or possibly agreeing with him that social protests are permitted - is in fact problematic as my brother points out.

      So if you want to argue that there is material which he could have cited but didn't - that is a peculiar defense of an article which was written specifically to defend public humiliation in the case of ma'us alei.

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    3. I gather you are against the sharp language which occurs in debate between Torah scholars such as Rav Shlomo Millers letters concerning Rav Belsky and Rabbi Broyde and Rav Aaron Schechters letter regarding Rav Belsky. Rav Moshe Feinstein was also subjected to this type of language. And of course you find it in Chazal and the Rishonim as well as in the Achronim.

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    4. R'DE,
      Your gathering is correct. I don't pretend to be of any stature and admit ny total mystification at why such language is apppropriate. I would go with nishtaneh society as to why it was approperiate in earlier times :-) (or it was ok for them to say it, not us :-))

      Personally it makes me question whether the goal of the writer (in all cases) is to find the emet or to be victorious.

      KT
      Joel Rich

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    5. Honestly it became impossible to take your brother seriously after he said that the various Teshuvot posted here, which included Rav Shternbuch, the Tiztz Eliezer, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Ben Ish Hai, the Yaskil Avdei, and Rav Ovadia Yosef were mistaken in their understanding of the sources and could not be relied upon.
      As regards the use of this particular Teshuva from Rav Ovadia(and coincidentally the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Kollitz) while I think the could have found a better Teshuva, this one would suffice for the moment as these three Rabbanim rule, that one is fully able to... impose the sanctions of Rabbenu Tam in all cases."
      So while the case the may give more than a case of simply a couple jointly deciding that a marriage is over, which it should be noted that Rabbi Broyde's article is not dealing with a run away wife, but a joint decision to end the marriage in which Get extortion is being used.
      I still don't think that Harchakak Rabbeinu Tam allows ORA type public humiliation, and I still believe there is an onus upon the Rabbinic supporters of ORA to prove that it does. However, to say that no pressure can be applied seems to be patently false given the wide range of Teshuvot saying that it can.

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    6. This is Rav Miller's letter

      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DCGOA_RlajQ/TSHnjlT9DfI/AAAAAAAAGDM/oRuQvvYyxiI/s1600/ravmillerletter.bmp

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    7. Rabbi Tzadok - why don't we just look at your statement- "I still don't think that Harchakak Rabbeinu Tam allows ORA type public humiliation, and I still believe there is an onus upon the Rabbinic supporters of ORA to prove that it does."

      Rabbi Broyde's article was elicited by Rabbi Student to provide a halachic basis for ORA - and you are saying he failed. I say he failed and obviously so does my brother.

      You need to understand who Rabbi Broyde is. He is truly a brilliant talmud chachom - perhaps smarter than you and me - with my brother thrown in. He has tremendous bekius.

      So if it is clear that if there were justification for ORA that you could have written it based on your present knowledge and I think I could have written it - then the failure of Rabbi Broyde to do so says something. It also says something that he thinks he succeeded based on his analysis of sources.

      So the fact that you strongly disagree with my brother regarding the questions of "when to pressure" and "what pressure is valid" - while of importance - is much less significant than the fact that Rabbi Broyde (seconded by Rabbi Student) thinks he has proven his point and we don't.

      Rabbi Broyde - who by the way is a tremendous mensch and baal midos - has been through this a number of times on a number of issues e.g., the issue of hair covering, NY State Get Law and his position at Eidah.

      Baruch HaShem he has the ability to be given strong criticism and to answer to the issue - which Rabbi Student says he is doing regarding this issue.

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    8. Joel,
      In an issue about mamzerut, the side that feels that he protects children against the worst kind of child abuse has a certain right to be forceful. To ignore the message is fighting against a style, which you may have a point, but to remain ignorant of the substance being discussed is also wrong.

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    9. I agree that the concept of mamzer is a kind of child abuse...

      There are thousands of cultures in the world that make do without the concept of mamzer...

      So why don't we just agree that we are all safek mamzerim and do away with the problem once and for all?

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    10. how does that solve anything - a sofek mamzer can not marry a kosher Jew or another sofek mamzer! Nor can they marry a mamzer

      In short a sofek mamzer can't marry anyone

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    11. Rabbi Eidonsohn seems to have forgotten that
      דברי תורה בנחת נשמעין
      It is most unfortunate that he continues to be grossly disrespectful in his writing style, showing an aggressiveness that basically diverts people's attention from what he is trying to say. Clearly he doesn't like YU. That is his right, and he is entitled to his opinion. However, it does not give him the right to denigrate Talmidei Chachomim and assume an invective that simply is not acceptable unless his audience is the uber-aggressive triumphalist right wing. He likes to talk about "Posek HaDor" with the implication that all must accept R' Elyashiv's psakim. This is of course not the case. There are Poskei HaDor and Chachmei HaDor and Dayonim pasken according to their own learning and understanding of the particular item before them. Certainly, there is a community that follows each and every edict of R' Elyashiv, but to superimpose those edicts and rulings on all living creatures is not a halachic stance. When the Sanhedrin is revived, we can consider such a reality.

      I have continued to ask both Eidensohns to call R' Schachter. Sadly, they do not do so, apparently.

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  3. "Just brazeneness matched only by his ignorance"

    Is this not public humiliation? So you just committed murder!

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    1. Batmelech I am pleasantly surprised at your sudden change of heart.

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    2. You bet. We must fight and humiliate the wicked who produce invalid divorces and mamzerim and say lies and twist things to teach everyone how to do serious sins. Making a mamzer is the ultimate child abuse, and those doing it are reshoim and we must fight them and humiliate them.

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    3. I just wanted to point out that it would be preferable to leave the "humilation = murder"-argument out, since neither Dovid, nor Daniel Eidensohn are able to make their points without insulting/humiliating others...

      I think it is way over the top.

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    4. I think if one works out the math and takes into account the fact that there are quite a few low-lives out there, much of KY might be technical mamzerim by now...

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  4. http://rygb.blogspot.com/2012/04/mechooh.html

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    1. Rabbi Bechhofer - I value your input - but I don't know why you don't just say what you want to instead leaving url's

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    2. Zeh leshoni sham in the first two paragraphs:

      I know that my opinion is but an insignificant drop in the sea of Torah, but I nevertheless feel obligated to express my pain and protest at the "Daas Torah" blog, http://daattorah.blogspot.com/, whose author seems intent on shackling wives to broken marriages, and on maximizing the numbers of mamzerim in Am Yisroel.

      Since the Chillul Hashem is ayom v'norah, I would like to state clearly and categorically that there are alternative opinions concerning almost any point he might contend, opinions of gedolim v'tovim memenu.

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    3. are you objecting to my presenting the views of Rav Eliashiv, Rav Sternbuch, Rav Ovadai Yosef, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Minchas Yitzchok etc - because they were "intent on shackling wives to broken marriages and maximizing the numbers of mamzerim in Am Yisroel?!
      Are you objecting to my noting that the above gedolim say one needs to be very careful about what pressure and how to apply pressure because of the issue of get me'usa?

      More to the point - please tell me where the teshuvos of recognized gedolim in the last 50 years which clearly state that the type of public humiliation done by ORA is less or at least no different than the harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam. That all marriages where the wife deserts the husband saying "I think I can find a better husband and therefore my marriage is finished" - that ORA can attack, embarrass & humiliate the husband as well as his family and employer - no matter where they go?

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    4. First of all, in the "Zu darka shel Torah?" department, someone removed my blog without a trace...

      Once I get my blog back, we can talk...

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    5. How do you come off blaming anyone here for someone hacking your blog? That was real chutzpa to blame your ideological opponents without the slightest evidence.

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  5. What a horrible post in terms of tone. It seems worthless to have such discourses with this tone.

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    1. A post that says lies about Reb Moshe Feinstein and uses them to twist halacha and produce invalid divorces and mamzerim is to you not a "horrible post." But a post that fights against it forcefully is so "horrible" and "worthless". Is this from the Torah or from something else that you learned?

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    2. Reb Dovid: Everyone thinks they're right and that is G-d is on their side -- even crazy Muslims. One can learn a lot from the respectful way that Rabbi Slifkin answers his opponents and which made a big impression on me. Also, can you picture Reb Moshe or Reb Yakov answering like you have?

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  6. To Rabbi Eidenson and daat Torah:

    Thanking for standing up to the truth as there is no one else out there with a blog that has the guts to oppose the multitudes who twist the Torah and cause mamzeirim in this world. Another observation that can be made here that renders guilty all these RA Bonnim, is that they never quote 1) MOREDET -We all know that a woman who is brandished a Moredet loses many rights. Interestingly, they argue why a Coerced Get is kosher, but one cannot argue whether she has the title of a Moredet as the Poskim dont differ on what constitutes a Moredet. Therefore in many cases where ORA, Herschel Schachter, and other corrupted Bais Din are involved, the woman has gone to secular courts as a first remedy or tried to jail a husband thru falsely obtaining an order of protection, etc... where this is against Halacha and yet no one from ORA, or the other corrupted Bais Din wants to address these issues. I think if you pin them down as to "What Posek allows going to court as a FIRST REMEDY they cant invent teshuvas that can allow this. Therefore this in my opinion is where they err. 1) they have no valid halachic source that can allow coercion in most cases. 2) even the minority poskim that allow it, cannot justify it in a Moredet case otherwise no woman would have to follow halacha and 3) cannot justify it when a man already deposited a GET whether they like his choice of Bais Din or not.
    see:
    http://mishpattsedek.com/Justice-Denied-LA.htm
    http://lonnakin.blogspot.com/

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    1. Shmuel,
      I can surely appreciate someone who stands up for those who stand up for the Torah and the truth. But it is not enough to stand up in a blog. The problems of marriage must be addressed. We have an ORA to make mamzerim, but an ORA to bring education to married people and communities how to prevent divorce we don't have. We need people who will do that.

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  7. I have used strong language here because i feel that the modern rabbis have crossed the line of normative Judaism and they are reshoim. Such people who teach false Torah values in the name of the Torah must be fought and denigrated, lest people say, "Well, he is a rabbi and has his learned opinion." I am trying to show that three of these modern rabbis, the head of the BDA Gedliah Schwartz, the Rosh Yeshiva of YU RHS, and now Rabbi Broyde, are dealing with Gittin in a way to make mamzerim, but even worse, they have crossed the line a rabbi may cross by inventing false things to achieve a certain purpose. This is a serious threat to the community, and I must fight it with harsh words. These are reshoim. Posek Hador Rabbi Elyashev shlit"o told me he takes away from such rabbis the authority of a Beth Din, which is a threat to any woman receiving a GET that it may not be recognized by Haredim. For this we must protest with very strong language.

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    1. Certainly your right, I can only say that at least for one individual the use of such language, and calling these Rabbis reshoim, undermines any consideration of your position in this matter, and frankly, in any other.
      KT
      Joel Rich

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    2. We have a difference of opinion. Let's wait until the babies born of these invalid divorces come of age and can't marry haredim and normative Orthodox children. Then we will put to them the issue of calling these mamzer producer rabbis "reshoim" in defiance of normative halacha, is it right or wrong? Or let me put it a different way. Would you would marry your children to someone who is declared a mamzer by the majority of Orthodox rabbis. Huh?

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    3. Reb Dovid: If I'm not mistaken, Reb Aharon Kotler's son (or grandson) received a 'heter meah rabbanim' to get his get eventhough there was much secrecy and perhaps shenanigans swirling around the issue? Would you have used even remotely similar language to address the issue? And if not, why not?

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    4. "Let's wait until the babies born of these invalid divorces come of age and can't marry haredim and normative Orthodox children."

      This looks very much like a power struggle to me. Therefore, if what you predict happens, it will not prove anything.

      It will just be one more dividing line... as if we had not already enough of them...

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    5. Dovy, there is no secrets in that case. She wanted to move to Eretz Yisroel and he did not. She moved there and refused a get. He got a heter meah.

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    6. If you are referring to Rav Aryeh Malkiel Kotler, they lived in Israel and he was called back to be Rosh Yeshivah of Lakewood when his father, Rav Shneur died.

      Rav A.M.'s wife did not want to leave Israel for America, so he tried to divorce her, but she would not accept his get.
      The heter meah rabbanim was then used to divorce her.

      The case in question is entirely different, but Dovy is correct - if Rav Broyde was a member of the correct camp his views may be debated and refuted, but his character and knowledge would not have been called into question. Certainly he would not have been called the names this post and some of the comments have used.

      The Chafetz Chaim, I believe, said no one today truly knows how to give tochachah (rebuke) - however there are so many who feel they *know* what is Torah and who is against Torah and thus must be outed as a "rasha"??

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  8. Against my advice, R. Broyde has written a response which I will be posting later today.

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    1. Why did you advise him not to respond? He is a brilliant person who can respond, which is why I kicked him down the steps. I wouldn't kick someone else down the steps, because they can't respond. He can, he should, and I will be waiting for him, but I respect him for battling for his beliefs. But I only wish that this won't become something other than a pure halacha contest. I feel that he has the capacity to keep things on a true halacha plane, although I don't know him at all personally. I have to assume that someone who spent a life of learning and dayonuse is worthy of that respect.

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  9. Gil Student,
    You are not disgusted, you are thoroughly disgusted. Personally, I am disgusted and even thoroughly disgusted at the major rabbis of the modern element who invent the Torah and ignore the normative halacha process in order to save Agunoth, when all they are doing is creating mamzerim. I want my children to be able to marry modern children, especially as many of them will become Haredim, as Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik has said. I feel that making a child with aspersions on his yichuse is the worst form of child abuse. Is this "thoroughly disgusting"? If you have a correction of my logic or halacha, say it,but to call names about a serious halacha issue is simply another step in the process of replacing halacha and Torah with liberal emotion.

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  10. "to call names about a serious halacha issue is simply another step in the process of replacing halacha"

    I've never met a man who today is still machmir to never look in a mirror.

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    1. I assume this is a scientific statement and that you ask everyone you meet if they look in the mirror. But this is just another example of trivial soundbites that replace serious halacha. I discuss serious halacha because I learned with intense shimush from Reb Aharon Kotler and Reb Moshe Feinstein. That is why ( deal with halachic facts and not sound bites. For this, you talk about my clear halacha findings with a dismissal and contempt. But what will you do with the baby mamszerim when the haredi community won't marry them? Will you assure them that being declared a mamzer by primitives from the true Torah world is not a problem?

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    2. >But what will you do with the baby mamszerim when the haredi community won't marry them? Will you assure them that being declared a mamzer by primitives from the true Torah world is not a problem?<

      The way things are going, I wouldn't be so sure there will even be a chareidei community in 20-30 years, never mind average people wanting to marry into them!

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    3. You obviously missed the midos part of your Shimush with R' Moshe. What a shame.

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    4. It's theoretical of course. Since these uber zeolots consider everyone outside of their daled amos as Reshoim, then ALL their Gitin are questionable. Why worry about Mous Olay. Come now.

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  11. The biggest disgrace is the silence and complicity of the chareidim in allowing the distortion of halochoh by YU and their sypathizers. They are clearly not motivated by halochoh since as a previous poster posted, they ignore the halochos of arko'oys, mesirah, genaivah caused by arko'oys and bittul kibud av, let alone the tz'aar and agmas nefesh the woman puts the man through when she really has a din of a rodef by being in arko'oys.

    At first glance they seem motivated by humna rights. But they ignore any male rights whatsoever. Are they motivated by female rights? Well what if one of the children is a girl who is prevented from seeing her father and has to witness the destruction of her father in arko'oys? Actually i am unsure what motivates these YU chevra. It is a ruach shtus, a ruach am horatzos no matter what they claim to know, a total lack of impariality and most importantly "rak ain yira elokim ba'mokam haze va'haraguni al dvar ishti". They have zilch yiras shomayim.

    As for gavriel bechofer's claims that these matter should not be discussed in public, this smacks of contempt for people, contempt for halochoh and utter panic. According to halochoh, a bais din is chayav to give very detailed rulings on how it reached its conclusions. While I cannot comment on this specific case, there are so many instances of Shcachter/ ORA being totally onme sided while ignoring the severe issurim of mesirah, arko'oys etc, they long ago lost any credibility in most people's eyes.

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    1. Stan,
      Excellent point. The silence of everyone about invalid Gittin is astonishing. At last a few of us are protesting. Someone quoted a chazal that if someone in Sedom had protested it would not have been destroyed. Who knows what reward there is for those who do protest while others sleep.

      Delete
    2. Perhaps they are silent because they are not invalid.

      Delete
    3. Stan, Stan Stan. Once more, you love dropping titles. Who the heck are you to drop R' Bechhofer's title? You hide behind a rock and throw stones. Last time I looked that was a Palestinian tactic. Shame on you.

      Delete
  12. you can post this if you want , but really it’s just for you; out of love

    you know I have a lot of respect for you and your work I think , on this issue, you have lost objectivity and maybe even credibility I know that i don’t have sufficient scope to give psak on this issue and neither does your brother
    [ obviously , I don’t know him , but reading his rant of a “tshuva”, he neither has the temperament nor breadth to reply either]even if rav sternbuch has guided you, or even ordered you, to enter the fray, the only thing you are actually accomplishing ,is creating a massive hatred for the world of torah among some people, and slandering great gedolim in the process.
    in the last week you have discarded as trash , or worse, r shechter, r belsky, r schwartz, r broyde,
    I assume r bechoffer is next...

    what possible good can this all lead to?
    even if you thought [ which I know you don’t ] that r eliashiv is the final , and therefor only, gadol btorah alive; is no other great posek allowed an opinion ? [ and does your brother have any way to determine what r eliashiv actually said , anyway][ and why would I prefer r eliashiv’s psak to rambam’s ?]

    let’s give this a break for a while how about a series on r moshe’s evolving tshuvot on dishwashers and shabbat clocks and then on the development of minhag avot vs minhag hamakom
    let’s contribute and create rather than destroy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unfortunately - these are issues that can not be pushed under the carpet. It is clearly a case that we are in the boat together and somebody insists on drilling a hole in the boat. Heated discussion are inherent for issues that mean something and as Eli Weisel noted there is no hatred to equal the hatred of brothers.

      so while it might be more pleasant to create an artificial agenda and have debate by Roberts Rules - the present agenda exists and is important and at least Rabbi Broyde hasn't given up and is willing to try again to convince of the truth of his views.

      Delete
    2. Concerned,
      You ask how I could know exactly what Posek Hador Reb Elyashev said. I heard it myself, and I spent a long time with him discussing coerced Gittin and other Gittin issues. He gave me his name for my Gittin Beth Din, when I made a program in Russia during Communism to make Gittin. I also spent much time talking to HaGadolim Reb Aharon Kotler and Reb Mshe Feinstein. I strongly believe that if these Gedolim would see what I wrote they would rejoice. Reb Aharon, especially, was known as a fire when he would attack rabbis who make errors that damage the community. You can say what you want about me and my style, but I have haskomose from many Gedolei Hador from the past and present generations, and I imbibed their feelings towards those who threaten children and Klal Yisroel. Make no mistake about it. We are headed for a major split in the Orthodox community because of this issue, of invalid Gittin. If I scream a little, it is not enough screaming. What is the limit of screaming when one saves a child from being a mamzer or doubtful mamzer?

      Delete
    3. I see. You learned with them, and spoke to them. So they have given a hechsher to your post AND its style. Hmmmm. That's an interesting psychological insight.

      Delete
  13. Ok, I just urge that you consider the following quote (hameivin yavin)
    “If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost Middle America.” – Lyndon Johnson, February 27, 1968

    KT
    Joel Rich

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Joel,
      I am regularly interviewed by the Rockland County, NY paper, and have been on national radio and television. My youtube.com/mons555 has over 200 videos and one of them got over 5000 views, the one about marriage, family and children. Google honored me by removing the length limit on my videos. Not long ago the Washington Jewish newspaper printed a lengthy article about my opinion in the Friedman case. People like someone who feels strongly about something and expresses the facts with a bit of pepper. Of course, you are right, this is a lot of pepper, but I feel that people must know how horrible making mamzerim is. It is better to err for such a reason than to be looking at the pollsters.

      Delete
    2. We agree to disagree (but Johnson was correct in his analysis and in the end the consent of the governed is an important issue-time will tell)
      KT
      Joel Rich

      Delete
  14. Here is R' Broyde's response, which is now posted as the first comment to R' Broyde's original article:

    Dear Gil,

    Thank you for sending me Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn’s reply to my blog post. Putting aside its nasty tone (which makes me very sad and does not bode well for our community if polite discourse is not possible), his article makes a number of claims that are not supported; three are very important to note.

    First he tries to limit the reasoning of the teshuva of Rav Ovadya Yosef (cosigned by the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Kolitz) to a case where the couple could not have children. But this is a misread of the teshuva. The basic holding of the teshuva is that Harchakot d’Rabbenu Tam are not considered coercion and may be used in any case in which any bet din thinks a get should be given without fear of creating a get meuseh. That is because Harchakot d’Rabbenu Tam are not considered sufficiently forceful to be coercion as a matter of halakhah and for no other reason. (That does not mean that there use in every case is proper as a matter of halakhah, but merely that the get that results is not invalid.)

    His second claim is that Harchakot D’Rabbenu Tam are now worse than before, as one cannot flee from city to city as the Gra notes. This issue is dealt with in notes 7 and 8 of my article, and I think his analysis is wrong in America. I wrote there that:

    It can be argued, however, that Gevurat Anashim‘s stringent ruling applies to an insular and thoroughly intertwined Jewish community, which was the norm in the pre-emancipation communities of Eastern Europe at that time. In such a community, withholding favors from an individual would have a devastating effect upon him. This result, it is claimed, is the equivalent of nidui. In the typical Orthodox community in America, where most people earn their living through economic interactions with the secular world, of course, withdrawing favors from an individual would not have nearly the same impact as it would in those communities. Hence, it appears reasonable to conclude that even the Shakh would rule that, in today’s circumstances, imposing harchakot d’Rabbenu Tam in America on a recalcitrant spouse would not constitute improper coercion to participate in a get proceeding.

    I think that my analysis is much more reflective of the reality of life in America. We are dealing with something far less coercive nowadays than in the times of the Shakh.

    His third claim is that I have misunderstood Rav Moshe. I think my claim is completely correct in Rav Moshe’s name. Rav Moshe’s view is that he has a sevarah gedolah which he thinks is correct (and which one can rely on halakhah le-ma’aseh with one other rationale present) which argues that there is no illicit coercion ever as a matter of halakhah when the husband and the wife actually want to get divorced and are fighting over the details. Harchakot D’Rabbenu Tam are such a case and this is consistent with IM EH 1:137. The application to our matter is clear and obvious.

    It makes me very sad that a person who seems to be such a torah scholar would write in such a difficult and unpleasant tone.

    Michael Broyde

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ORA's vicious feminist practices are "KOL DAVAR ASSUR" as one knowledgeable Chareidi Gittin rav informed me.

      From the safety of their ivory towers, the pro-ORA rabbis sic their ORA feminist pit bulls against scores of decent Jewish husbands (and their rabbis) involved in divorce cases. In the Jewish and non-Jewish media, at numerous protests and on numerous web sites, ORA and its supporters unleash torrents of slander and lies against the divorcing husbands and their rabbis.

      ORA is promoting some of the worst AVEIRAS in the Torah. Complaints by ORA supporters against alleged "unpleasant tones" of the anti-ORA rabbis utterly reek of hypocrisy!

      Keep up your great work, Rabbi Daniel and Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn!

      Delete
    2. I thank you for your encouragement. It surely comes in handy. But the real goal has got to be to start looking into the reasons marriages are failing in the Torah community. People spend years learning Torah and musar and end up in court. What happened? The major problem is that our communities have adapted frumkeiten and idealisms opposed by the Torah, and when things fall apart, they become even more frum. I refer to the frumkeit of ignoring your wife and not working, but everywhere are idealisms that destroy. WHy can't we discuss them?

      Delete
  15. Rabbi Broyde's letter is a good example of disagreeing without being disagreeable, IMHO. His sentence structure and choice of words also lends evidence, to me at least, of a superior intellect than his detractors evidence.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Rabbi Broyde's letter is a good example of disagreeing without being disagreeable,"

      I completely agree and would like to point out that insults, say more about the insulter than about the insulted...

      Delete
  16. I have nothing to say about this because it didn't change my opinion one iota. The complaint about my tone is accepted. My wife hates it when I talk like this, but this is how I think my rebbes would have talked. It was a different generation. I recall a story about a rebbe Gadol HaDor who was speaking to a crowd about some rabbis and he was slamming the shtender in fury. In those days they had a technician who fiddled with the controls, and this person was right next to the Gadol and was completely calm, and people could not understand why!

    The gemora often tells us that somebody said something strange because "he must say the way his rebbe said." That is what I am doing. My first rebbe would speak out in shull and people got up and told him to be quiet or leave the community. Those were the days and those were my rebbes. We must speak the language of our rebbes because all that we say and do is rooted in them. They are speaking through me, so I do it their way. That is how I understand the gemora.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I had a rebbe who grabbed my Soncino chumash, stomped on it and then blew his nose into it. Doesn't make it right though!

      Delete
    2. You did not address the question that refusing a get for coercion does not imply that the husband does not want to be divorced.

      Delete
  17. OK this is getting a little frustrating for me. Next time Y quotes something from Gil's blog, can you respond to it on Gil's blog? Or make a new blog post. The comments section of your blog is not the right place to use to respond to something in the comments section in someone else's blog.

    ReplyDelete
  18. To Dovid Eidensohn:

    I want to thank you for "talking" the way you "talked."

    That way, we all have a better idea of where you're coming from.

    Had you been more inhibited, perhaps some of us might have taken your arguments at face value.

    Thanks for saving us the trouble.

    Oh, and I have no doubt that your Rabbe'im would have "talked" the same way, albeit only when "amongst friends."

    Thanks again, this time for letting us know how they as well spoke.

    You've done a great service.

    Yiyasher kochecha!

    ReplyDelete
  19. RDE,
    The tone in which your rebbeim spoke was reflective of the time and place in which they were raised. Moroccan rabbanim would never speak that way about one another. What is applicable in one era is not applicable in another. If you want to convince yourself that you are standing up for Torah then continue along your path but if you want to persuade people that you are correct you would be better off refraining from ad hominem attacks and irrelevant diatribes. This case has nothing to do with Rabbi Gedalia Schwartz or the BDA.

    Rabbis Belsky and Kamenetsky determined that Aharon has to give Tamar a Get, that she is an Agunah, and that we have to see to it that he gives her the Get. RHS, relying on seruv as well as on his hundreds of hours of research on the facts of the case determined that publicly spreading the word of Aharon's actions is not coercion. Your response? To attack Rabbi Gedalia Schwartz, the BDA (on which RHS does NOT sit), and YU.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. James,
      You did not read my response, but only the first paragraph. If you want to attack me, please read the entire response, and respond to my points, right or wrong, rather than seeking some quickie excuse to denigrate what I said. Believe me, Rabbi Broyde knew what I wrote. A scholar would understand it, but I don't know why you don't read it carefully to understand it before you find some sentence that has nothing to do with my arguments. But the reason I mentioned the three rabbis who are re-inventing the laws of Gittin is to show just how dangerous the whole situation is, because now we see that the leading modern rabbis cannot be trusted with a GET, and who knows who will marry the children of the next marriage? Doesn't that move you?

      Delete
    2. Since when are Rabbis Kamenetzky and Belsky in the 'modern' camp? If so, it's certainly news to me!

      Delete
    3. RDE,

      I did not mean to attack you. My point is that your entire blog post is tainted by its introduction and you would be better off debating the halacha or its application to the Friedman case. By turning this into a war against Modern Orthodoxy, and by attacking rabbanim who are not involved in the case while ignoring rabbanim who ARE involved (RSK) you undermine your own cause.

      Delete
    4. I am not warring against any community of Jews, but the reality is that the rabbis of the YU element are changing the accepted and normative practices of marriage. And unfortunately, they are not alone, but they are the most open and outspoken about it, trumpeting their new Torah despite the fact that they have no convincing arguments to support their deviance from normative halacha. If Rabbi Soloveitchik were still alive, this would not happen. As a matter of fact, I am fighting for modern Orthodox children, that they not become a community where we can't trust the Gittin of the rabbis there, and thus children from this group will not marry my children. That is what I am fighting about.

      Delete
  20. Dovid Eidensohn said:
    I have nothing to say about this because it didn't change my opinion one iota.

    Did you ever stop for one second to think that he isn't trying to convince you of anything. That in fact he is speaking to the multitude of readers who are actually interested in what the halakha and the sources actually said. That he is speaking to people who do not come to the sources with pre-determined conclusions into which they feel the need to contort the texts, and delcare mistaken or unreliable anyone who disagrees with him(despite that they are leaders of the generation)?

    Whether Rav Feinstein or Rav Kotler spoke that way during a musar shmooze is one thing. You kinda expect fire when sitting through a musar schmooze. However, they didn't write that way.

    A couple of other observations. You claim you follow the opinions of Posek Hador Rabbi Elyashev shlit"o so may I ask why you have an internet connection? He has also taken away the Kashrus of any Rav that has an internet connection, as he has said and written repeatedly.

    Why should I believe that you represent the views of Rav Aharon Kotler ZTz"L better than Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky who is musmakh from him?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Rabbi David Eidensohn

    What you have done has taken real guts. You are standing up publicly to the corruption of halocho by the MO/YU terrorists.

    Now you can expect them to go after you in the most vicious forms - the only thing is you just used a mashehu of the tactics they use against those who disagree with them and the men they demonstrate agaionst. They will degrade you, belittle you, question your integrity and use the most despicable means to bring you down.

    Stay strong. You are fighting milchemes Hashem. These YU chevra are the amoleik of this dor and the rabbonim who keep quiet against them the eirev rav.

    Most of them wouldn't even be good enough to give a chaburah in BMG.

    They think they are mighty powerful. hashme brought down Amoelik. He will bring them down too.

    hey have destroyed too many men and distorted the shulchan oruch too many times to get away with it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stan,
      Thank you for your encouragement. It means a lot to me. I can surely use it. But isn't it scary when talking about mamzerim doesn't mean a thing to the modern Orthodox rabbonim? If Rabbi Soloveitchik were still alive this would never have happened. But YU is run differently now, and whoever doesn't toe the line is out of there, and don't the three rabbis I attack know it. We have to understand them, too, even if they are making mamzerim, because not everyone can give up a job so easily.

      Delete
    2. I was once familiar with a certain creep named ML who refused to give his wife a get for many years -- and it was obvious as day that it was all about $$$$. Guess who he held from and always quoted? None other than you, Reb Dovid Eidenson!

      Delete
  22. My rebbes did not limit their honesty and sincere feelings to friends, who didn't need to be scolded. They spoke out openly for everyone to hear. I personally feel that when we reduce the mamzerut issue to a question of style, it is in the same league as those who invent other rules that eventually produce mamzerim.

    I have produced such letters with ferocious condemnation of very serious rabbonim, and most people congratulated me for it. We have, today, unfortunately, a lot of this, because the world runs on money, and a lot of it has strings attached. I tell people often that I am free to criticize because I have no fiscal obligations and nobody can fire me. But those who do have worries about being accepted by the money people out there have to back gays, back feminists, and do whatever those rich people and monies people want. And that is exactly what is happening today.

    If Rabbi JB Solveitchik was alive today, he would lay down the law, as he always did, and we would not have these problems. Once he heard somebody inventing something about marital law and he replied, "KOLU KOL HAKAYATSIM" all of the "ends" have ended. That is, this is the bottom of the pit. The question is, why are his Talmidim going elsewhere? Because if they did not in the new YU they would not have their jobs. YU and its Beth Din are controlled by no-nonsense pro-Agunah people and they want results, or else.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. While I despise HS for his part in converting Ivanka Trump, I can't help but wonder if you protested when a Kotler obtained a 'Heter Meah Rabbanim' to re-marry?

      Delete
    2. Dovy what does one have to do with the other?

      Delete
    3. They have everything to do with each other. I think Dovy is exactly right. RDE doesnt really seek to defend Torah or protect Jewish marriage. He is using that issue to attack Modern Orthodoxy. That is why he is silent on Kotler and that is why he is using this Friedman-Epsteiin case to attack the BDA and Rabbi Gedalia Schwartz when in fact, they have nothing to do with it.

      Delete
    4. James I appreciate your belief that you have ruach hakodesh - but could you please describe what the halachic issues are that bother you? Why do you think that get me'usah is the same problem as heter meah rabbonim?

      Delete
    5. Dovy I am still waiting for an answer!

      Delete
    6. My question simply was: Do you (ie your brother) speak 'Truth to Power' in all cases or just where it is politically advantageous to do so? I wam not so learned, but a 'Heter Meah Rabbanim' seems very serious to me and if not done right, both would still be considered married in the eyes of Halacha, right?

      Furthermore, I recall reading/hearing that in one famous case (maybe it was that one), there were many issues with the signatures, although I no longer recall the specifics.

      Delete
  23. R. Dovid Eidensohn,

    I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the Beit Din Shel Maala after 120 when you appear before the Kisei Hakavod.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ysk,
      Now, that is encouragement. I'll take it right into the veins! May you enter the Kisay HaKovode with all kovode!

      Delete
  24. James where have you been thug? Belsky is not allowed to write gittin - he doesn't even believe in them. ask his buddy bertie fuchs whom he was mafkiah the kiddushin le'mafreiah?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Congratulations Stan! You win. By calling me a thug, you have successfully driven me away from this blog post. I will no longer be participating in this discussion.

      You are a shining light for Torah.

      Delete
  25. RDE,

    No one believes that RJBS would be on your side in this debate and no one believes that you have anything but contempt for him. Bringing him into this doesnt help your cause. RHS is far more right wing than his rebbe.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No one knows what everyone believes. If you want to say that you don't believe then that is something that you are an expert about

      Delete
  26. RDE:

    Evidently someonw here was so incensed that they felt the need to hack and remove my blog. My blog has disappeared without a trace.

    Zu darka shel Torah?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hope you were backed up! In the mean time I offer you a platform here - from posting an article to making comments.

      Delete
    2. In the meantime - could you start citing some sources that justify ORA's program and that it is less severe than the harchakos of Rabbein Tam?

      Delete
    3. here is some suggestions for you from blogger
      Accidental deletion

      Possible reason: Double check that you or a team member didn't delete your blog by accident.
      What you can do: On your Blogger dashboard, look for and click on the "Deleted blogs" link, and undelete the blog. If your blog hasn’t been recently deleted by you or a team member, you won’t see this link. Once you select the undelete option, everything will return to normal.

      Delete
  27. Dovid Eidensohn:

    Perhaps you misunderstood my comment.

    My comment thanking you for your frankness was not due to its tone, for which one can indeed find precedent, but in its ad hominem labeling and sweeping generalizations:

    "It is part and parcel of the new Torah emanating from the modern YU rabbis."

    You want to attack R' Broyde and Rav Schachter in the strongest possible terms, go right ahead. Usually, though, one ENDS with the name-calling and characterizations, AFTER one has destroyed the opponent's case.

    You not only BEGAN with the snide characterizations, but extended them to a entire class of Rabbonim whom you -- and your Rabbei'im --clearly despise.

    That helps us to know where you're REALLY coming from.

    As I said, thanks for saving me the effort to actually consider thinking about anything you had to say.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dovid Shlomo,
      I began my attack on Rabbi Broyde with one idea, to show that three major authorities of the modern Orthodox movement have gone beyond normative halacha in helping Agunoth. That is why I began as I did, with GS, RHS and then, on to Rabbi Broyde. I feel that the Rosh Yeshiva of YU and the Av Beth Din of YU's rabbis being beyond the pale of normative halacha is a proper indication or rather indictment of modern Orthodox rabbinical structure. Thus, Rabbi Broyde who is getting attacked by me is not the target, but rather the entire modern Orthodox rabbinate, the Wash DC rabbis who support ORA despite the obviously wrong of public humiliation, is all part and parcel of this revolution that would never have taken place if Rav YB Soloveitchik zt"l was alive.

      Yes, the Mashgiach in YU has worked to expose people to frumeh gays. That is a new wind in YU and it is just beginning. But that is minor to the revolution in marital and divorce law that I am attacking on this blog and elsewhere. Because from this comes mamzerim and I will fight this child abuse tooth and nail.

      Delete
    2. "Because from this comes mamzerim and I will fight this child abuse tooth and nail"

      I'm sorry I cannot add anything of halachic substance to this discussion but are you seriously suggesting that if I don't treat some jerk as if he were a mentch while he refuses do do the right thing that my wanting to have nothing to do with such a jerk can constitue coersion rendering his ex's children mamzerim??!! Doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

      Delete
    3. Yirmayahu,
      I am almost seventy years old and have spent decades working with "jerks" and much worse than that. A human being is a holy thing and the worst people can become fine people, but they need the right environment. ORA is turning a whole generation of husbands who are not monsters into people fearing and hating and willing to fight tooth and nail for the drop of self-respect they are missing. They talk to me, and I tell them they must give a GET, but we talk. The other ones they hate. If ORA and the trouble makers who teach women to put their husband in jail or call the police on their husbands to embarrass their husbands would cease, a lot of "jerks" would disappear.

      Delete
  28. @ stan, your one talent is to have an insult for every person, either a play on their name or otherwise bizayon. Did you have special Graduate studies in insultation ?

    ReplyDelete
  29. OK Gil's closed his thread. I guess this is the place for discussion then.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Eddie no what you are accusing me of is actually what you and your getora thugs are masters in. as soon as someone fights back against this wickedness you attack them viciously.

    carry on you biryon with your friends james. you have not answered my points about how corrupt the MO thugs are ignoring arko'oys, mesirah, geniavoh etc not even once!

    you haven't because you cannot.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Stan - Eddie and James are not the enemy. they both have made valuable contributions by their comments and questions. Even if I happen to disagree with them on occasion.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Will try to write a detailed response to Rabbi Broyde - hopefully it will be finished next week.

    In particular I want to show the dynamic of factors that we talked about. I also want to define the parameters more precisely

    ReplyDelete
  33. Rav Ovaida (Yabia Omer 3: Even Ho'Ezer 18:13) is prepared to countenance actual kefiya by mo'is olai and the Tzitz Eliezer is too. But for Rav Schachter to allow a couple of demos is supposedly beyond the pale! You should be ashamed of yourselves.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That is not what he says

      שו"ת יביע אומר חלק ג - אבן העזר סימן יח

      . ואפשר דלאו כפייה בשוטין קאמר, אלא בדברים למקרייה עבריינא וכדומה. וכדעת רבינו יונה והרמ"א הנ"ל.
      He says one can call the person a sinner or similar things. Don't see anything about demonstrations. Bob please read through all the teshuvos - and not just a line or two of the theshuvos I have translated before you pronounce yourself an expert and pass judgment and condem anyone.

      Delete
    2. Bob he also says his motivation for searching for leniencies is because of his concern that in our days that the woman might remarry or simply live with another man without a get - . It would seem that where it is reasonably certain that that won't happen - such with Tamar -that there wouldn't be a heter.

      Delete
    3. Daas Torah,

      I thought you lived in Har Nof. Ever think of just going over and asking Rav Ovadia what he meant and what he thinks is permissable and what is not?

      Or writing him a letter for that matter? Then you would have an actual written teshuva to your various questions as to what Rav Ovadia believes and the argument would subside.

      I don't know that they will necessarily be as lengthy as those in Yabia Omer, but it would still be something.

      Delete
  34. On this issue I have not expressed an opinion, and I do not support one side or the other, and I know I am not qualifiied in halacha to take a stand.

    However, there are strongly differing opinions in Halacha, but as yet, there has not been any attack from Gedolim in the USA. As far as I am aware, R Kamenetsky and R Shachter are gedolim.

    Are current Roshei Yeshiva making any attacks on this issue?

    Stan, I think you are very funny. Do you make a living as a Stan'd up comedian?

    ReplyDelete
  35. I have spoken to the senior Gittin experts in America and they are very upset about coerced Gittin. Public humiliation of the husband is forbidden by every single rabbi I asked. Even Rabbi Ralbag told me that it is forbidden. And he told me the SIRUV he issued did not command Mr. Friedman to give a GET but merely to accept a Beth Din.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Which experts? Who are they? Are they recognized leaders of the generation or are they people who you consider to be experts?

      Oh... please leave off all of the unnecessary superlatives. See everytime you say Posek Hador Rabbi Elyashev shlit"o, I want to respond that's fine but Maran Posek Hador HaMekubal Elokit HaTzadik Yesodei HaOlam HaGaon HaRav Ovadia Yosef Shlit"a says... See we can append titles all day long, its just pointless.

      Delete
  36. daas torah with frineds like eddie and james who needs iran or other enemies.

    eddie - of course you find mesirah, arko'oys genaivoh bittul kibbud av vo'eim, etc a joke and very funny. did not expect otherwise from a kal she'bekalei kalim like you.

    who says i make a living? maybe i work for a parasitic organization like the OU, the BDA or avi ovos hatumah YU?

    ReplyDelete
  37. there are no gedolim in america bar rav avrohom gestetner and rav dov tzvi abraham. no one else is prepared to fight each and every thug on corrupt botei din including the BDA, Shachter, Belsky, ralbag, Sheretz Steinberg etc.

    when the agudah emplys brazenly an archivist who is machzik b'arko'oys what kind of example does it show? blatant chilul hashem.

    ReplyDelete
  38. RDE,

    I want to state my objection clearly.

    To the extent that I have any connection to any of the parties or Rabbis involved, my bias would probably side with Aharon, whom I met years ago and who struck me as a very nice and kind man - the last person anyone would suspect of "abusing" his wife in any way. I came into this debate a bit uncomfortable with ORA's tactics and remain unsure as to the prorpiety of protesting his family members but generally convinced that Aharon has no right to keep his Get refusal a secret and so long as ORA does not cause him financial or physical harm, there is nothing wrong with telling the world that Aharon refuses to give a Get. That is where I stand.

    At this point, I think there are three issues:
    1. Are the ostracizing methods of Rabbeinu Tam ever permitted?
    2. If so, do ORA's tactics fall under those permitted methods?
    3. If so, do the facts of this case warrant such actions?

    I consider civil discussion of these questions a mitzva. My problem is that in discussion of these issues you have implicated Rabbi Schwartz and the BDA who have nothing to do with any of these questions. RHS, the only MO rabbi involved in this matter is not a dayan on the BDA and Rabbi Schwartz has nothing to do with ORA. There may well be a vast left wing conspiracy to destroy Jewish marriage (I dont think so) but the names involved in this particular case can not be considered Modern. I dont know if Rabbis Kamenetsky of Belsky are corrupt, ignorant, or evil but I do know that they are certainly not Modern Orthodox and they sat on a BD which issued a seruv that not only required Aharon to appear before the BD but also required he give Tamar a Get and publicly encouraged doing whatever possible to help free her from Igun (and you read that seruv as advocating violence!) What does that have to do with Modern Orthodoxy?

    I will end with one last point about RHS. RHS is far more "hereidi" than his rebbe. Unlike his rebbe, RHS is on record advocating secular studies only as a means toward earning a living. Unlike his rebbe's mixed messages on women's prayer groups, RHS wrote the definitive article prohibiting them. RHS referred to Edah as a "sort of internal Amalek". My point is that for the most part, RHS has been a giant thorn in the side of the feminists.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. James,
      You attack me for talking about RGD who let a couple leave without a GET on the grounds, mistakenly, that there was mekach toose. What does that have to do with ORA? It has everything to do with our discussion of ORA because ORA, RHS and RB are all part and parcel of the new YU, where the halacha of Gittin is being changed.

      Years ago, decades ago, I worked hard at Agunoth, and had some success, and heard about an Agunah organization. I called them and suggested they work with the rabbis, and one lady said a good idea, but the boss said, "We don't want to work with rabbis, we want to change the halacha." And they are succeeding by teaching women how to humiliate and jail their husbands until the husbands will never give a GET, and then they have RGS and RHS and RB come along and fulfill their demands to change the halacha of Gittin, and produce mamserim.

      Delete
  39. Recipients and PublicityApril 26, 2012 at 11:02 AM

    Mazel Tov on passing the important milestone of more than 100 comments in the thread on this post!

    ReplyDelete
  40. Stan,

    "kal she'bekalei kalim" is quite a good one, but you haven't justified the insukt, since I have never stated support for the position you are attacking.

    I did a few aveiras in my life, so any insults you pack in I accept , and hopefully theywill help me shed any Gehinnom that may await me.
    But keep them coming, they are really funny!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Obviously stan is not playing with a full deck or has become so embittered by perhaps his own divorce. I would just ignore him!

      Delete
  41. I have already expressed my revulsion at S.T.A.N. and his verbal diaharea, and I see no reason to respond again here. You can see my comments in this post,
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/rav-y-belsky-objections-of-rav-s-miller.html as well as the ones linked to from there.

    It's worth noting that S.T.A.N. doesn't actually participate in the discussions- he just keeps repeating his catchphrases about mesira arkoyos etc. He apparently hasn't noticed that R Broyde has written a Teshuva as well as a response to R Dovid Eidehnsohn's rebuttal.

    Eddie- it's yom ha'atmaut! Be happy and don't allow S.T.A.N.'s lunacy to interfere with the celebration. Chag sameach to you, and Hajj sameah to S.T.A.N. and his I.L.K. (Illiterate Lowlife Know-it-alls)!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shaul, You've just served us noticed that severe transgressions under authentic Torah law such as mesira (informing on Jews to the goverment)and using arkoyos (non-Jewish courts) simply don't exist in your feminist Reformadox religion. This is in addition to other Torah divorce concepts such as moredes (women such as Tamar Epstein who abandon their husbands) which have been expunged by the YU/ORA feminist politicos.

      ORA's wicked support for Jewish women committing mesira and using arkoyos is a fundamental issue which must be addressed and cannot be swept under the rug, even by the YU/ORA feminist politicos using falsified halachic citations to allow forced Gittin and mamzerim.

      Delete
    2. >You've just served us noticed that severe transgressions under authentic Torah law such as mesira (informing on Jews to the goverment)and using arkoyos (non-Jewish courts) simply don't exist in your feminist Reformadox religion.<

      Newsflash: it seems like every other Chassidic rabbi (his own family members) is fighting in secular court, FWIW.

      Delete
  42. Am I the only one who sees the remarkable similarities between R. Dovid Eidensohn's attacks of Rav Shmuel and Rav Schachter with R. Yom Tov Schwarz's attacks on Rav Moshe in Me'aneh Le-Iggeros?

    I'm not sure if the below image will come through but see R. Schwarz's complaints in his introduction pages 3-4 about how Rav Moshe was causing mamzeirus with his psakim. It's easy to criticize tough decisions.

    http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8007/6969572172_da9d036c5b_o.jpg
    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7221/7115660087_d6a11d9427_o.jpg

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You might better cite the criticism of Rav Moshe regarding artificial insemination - which included threats on his life.

      On the other hand Rav Moshe could also give it out as we see on his attacks on Reform and Conservative rabbis.

      Then we have the attacks on the supporters of the newly formed Beis Yaakov movement

      Or would you prefer the attacks of the chareidi world against religious Zionists?

      Or going back a little way regarding the attacks on Chassidim.

      or going back further the attacks on the Shulchan Aruch. The attacks on the Rambam etc etc.

      Any innovation generally elicits strong responses. Any innovation which survives attacks generally is accepted in the next generation as normative. This is the vetting process of Yiddishkeit

      Delete
    2. BTW I was told that when Me'aneh Le-Iggeros was brought to the printer, the printer was horrified to see how Rav Moshe was attacked. He called up Rav Moshe to ask what to do. Rav Moshe said to print it.

      Delete
    3. And I'm sure that Rav Schachter would say that if people want to disagree with him then they have every right.

      My point is that I could list the many poskim who were horrified by Rav Moshe's annulments of weddings where there were no kosher witnesses so the children of the remarried wife would not be considered mamzerim. Even today his approach is rejected in Israel.

      R. Dovid Eidensohn's criticisms of Rav Schachter -- new idea, insufficient support, no conferral with colleagues -- could be equally leveled at Rav Moshe, and were. Just as we were horrified by R. Yom Tov Schwarz's attacks we are similarly horrified by R. Dovid Eidensohn's -- for all the same reasons.

      Delete
    4. >Any innovation generally elicits strong responses. Any innovation which survives attacks generally is accepted in the next generation as normative. This is the vetting process of Yiddishkeit<

      Well especially with gitin and agunot, many lives can be ruined in the meantime. There must be a better way than having to wait a generation or two for the dust to settle?

      Delete
    5. "Any innovation generally elicits strong responses. Any innovation which survives attacks generally is accepted in the next generation as normative. This is the vetting process of Yiddishkeit"

      To some extent this is true. Zionism and its religious counterpart has been around for 100 years, so it is several generations. whilst it is still attacked, the shechita of Tzioni shochtim/ rabbis is not considered treif, and semichah of Tzioni Yeshivot is generally accepted as valid by Haredim, to the extent that Satmar mourned the terrorist atrocity at Mercaz haRav Kook.

      Delete
  43. Gil,
    You are obviously well trained in soundbites and clever remarks that have nothing to do with understanding halacha. Rabbi Broyde knew exactly what I said because he is a brilliant scholar. I poured the kitchen sink on him and I am absolutely sure that it would never occur to him to take this personally or to make soundbites. The problem is that YU always had a tension in its community between the Rackmans and the Rov. Something happened, somebody landed in jail, and the Rackmans took over. Anyone who works for YU or its Beth Din must now toe the line. It is a great test. But the Torah cannot be controlled by politicians, only by serious scholars.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I appreciate your kind words although, in truth, I have no such training.

      Your description of YU is incorrect beyond recognition. You think Rackman's approach took over??? Rav Moshe's grandson was kicked out of YU for annulling marriages on premises thereby permitting agunos to remarry, even though he claimed to be following Rav Moshe's guidelines! Rav Schachter even published an essay online against this approach: link

      And I question the judgment of anyone who thinks Rav Schachter is not a serious scholar.

      Delete
    2. Gil,
      I speak my mind in the media, with 229 videos on youtube.com/mons5555, and various websites including one I made with a Nazi I taught to respect Jews called jewhaters.com. Another one is kedusho.com about sexual problems for religious people. I am regularly consulted and visited by media and people all over the world. Why can't you accept that the radical changes in YU marital law is not the product of some primitive's narrow picture of life? I am not narrow, and the head of NASA once gave me use of his data base for free. Iranians write to me thanking me for my insights into ancient Persia, although some of them curse me. I feel my opinions deserve some kind of different perspective on your part. I once issued a public letter attacking some Rosh Yeshivas, and when I met them at a family wedding I went over and shook their hand. We in the Torah world specialize in screaming, but when the session is over, it is over.

      Delete
    3. "including one I made with a Nazi I taught to respect Jews called jewhaters.com."

      I hate to tell you that you were not very successfull with that one, in light of what he writes about your correspondence and about you in his own blog... I was really appalled.

      So what you wrote seems to be more wishfull thinking than reality..

      Delete
    4. "I once issued a public letter attacking some Rosh Yeshivas, and when I met them at a family wedding I went over and shook their hand."

      Well, this would indicate that they have a good caracter and are polite and/or not resentful. It does not say anything about you.

      Same goes for the head of Nasa who gave you use of his data base for free. It's nice he did it, but why do you think this says anything positive about you?

      Delete
  44. James,
    You correctly note that the issue is whether or not the tactics of ORA are permitted. And I ask you, after I present to you the Rashbo, Rabbi Yosef Caro, Radvaz, Shach and Chazin Ish, the greatest of the poskim, who forbid humiliating the husband, even in private, how can anyone disagree? Rabbi Schachter produces a logic that all of these rabbis only spoke about women who lived with their husbands, not women who broke off the relationship. That is his invention and nobody ever said it. Rabbi Broyde finds another tactic, of misquoting the Vilna Gaon and Reb Moshe, such as quoting only part of the Gro and leaving out a key piece that reverses his proof, and taking Reb Moshe's statement "don't rely on this" to "rely on it." Later he weasels around this but the damage is done. This is dishonest reporting. Will the mamzerim be safe with such innovations? Surely not. That is the issue, will the children be accepted or not. I won't accept them and all of the major Gittin authorities I spoke to won't either. Again, Rabbi Schachter and Rabbi Broyde both approve of ORA's tactics, but they say totally different reasons, meaning they don't necessarily agree with each other. Does that encourage the children?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here's a theoretical question: Imagine if a nuetral-party called a conference for all concerned parties to get together and hash out a halachikly-acceptable plan to deal with the painful issues we're all discussing. I can easily imagine one side participating, but the other side totally boycotting the conference.

      What does that say?

      Delete
    2. Honestly you haven't adequately shown that the Beit Yosef says that. You keep saying he does, on account of him bringing the Rashba, however, it is clear by reading on that he does not agree with the Rashba entirely. Primarily he learns from the Rashba that we cannot literally beat the husband with sticks to force him to give a Get. Though he then says that we can beat his father with sticks until his father tells him to give a get, and then beat him until he does what his father told him to do.

      For all of your Poskim(which you consider to be the greatest) other's from the same generation can be shown to say differently.

      The Rashba was against Rov Rishonim.

      The Beit Yosef didn't hold like the Rashba.

      The Shach... well there is the Beit Shmuel and other Notei Kelim to deal with. Have you ever wondered why the Shach didn't even merit to make the daf?

      The Chazon Ish... well he wasn't fully accepted in his life or the generations after.

      I'm glad you finally came up with another(the Radvaz) now if you could give a source we could look at it and see what others have to say about it.

      You keep saying mamzerim, however all of the sources you list above recognize that pressure, even beating with sticks, is only at the most ossur m'd'rabbanan, so unless you can show that we actually rule sofek m'd'rabban l'chumra, it is a patently false claim that you are making simply for shock value.

      Delete
    3. "You correctly note that the issue is whether or not the tactics of ORA are permitted."

      That is not what I noted. I separated the issues. The first question was whether Harchakat Rabbeinu Tam are ever permitted. Your writings would indicate that you believe they are not. The problem is that ROY and others disagree. Until that point is settled there is no use arguing whether publicizing Aharon's GET refusal is beyond what is acceptable because for you nothing is acceptable.

      As for the B"Y, I believe Rabbi Michael Tzadok is correct in his reading of that source and it is perfectly consistent with ROY's general tendency to hold like the B"Y in all matters.

      Delete
    4. James,
      You write, "The first question was whether Harchakat Rabbeinu Tam are ever permitted. Your writings would indicate that you believe they are not." Pardon me, but this is not what I believe. I rather said that there are two sections of Shulchan Aruch, one dealing with MOUS OLEI where Rabbeinu Tam is not mentioned, and one dealing with sterile husbands, and the like, where Rabbeinu Tam is mentioned. Thus, I infer, that ostracizing is not permitted by Ramo with MOUS OLEI but he brings it later by husbands who are commanded by the Talmud to divorce. I also mentioned that Shach and Chazon Ish forbid Rabbeienu Tam's PIRUD even when the husband is commanded by the Talmud to give a GET, unless the Talmud clearly says that the husband may be coerced even physically. However, the poskim clearly say that Rabbeinu Tam has conditions: the husband must be free to go to another city, and only passive things are permitted, not public demonstrations, and the Gro says that it is only permitted when the Talmud clearly says there must be a divorce, not in MOUS OLEI. Thus ORA is completely forbidden from making public demonstrations with MOUS OLEI.

      Delete
  45. B"H, as mysteriously as my blog disappeared, it has now reappeared. Therefore, I will address points there, in the comments to http://rygb.blogspot.com/2012/04/mechooh.html

    ReplyDelete
  46. B.S. Leyakov- I said no such thing. Neither did R Broyde Shlita. His Teshuva included many more real halachic refences than you, S.T.A.N., and the rest of your moetzes ke'tanei hatora could ever hope to know. I realize it's hard being an illiterate Charedi up against a world class 'modernishe' talmid chacham like R Broyde- but such is life.

    Also- as Dovy alluded to- perhaps you'd like to comment on the legal case of Teitelbaum vs Teitelbaum involving some reform lawyers arguing in front of a Goyishe judge about which heilige admor represents true Daas Torah?
    (To be clear, I'm sure both brothers are Tzadikkim, but throwing around epithets like 'arkoyos' and 'mesira' as if they're only a problem by the'reformadox' is laughable)

    ReplyDelete
  47. shaul shapira you are a joke. Rav gestetner has put out a kuntrus on the issue if kfiah be'get and mous olai. i do not need to reinvent the wheel to prove to you how much i know or don't know.

    he completely proves how it is ossur to force in any way a get in the case of mo'us olai. r' dovid eidensohn completely annihilated you world class talmid chochom quote unquote. see what rav miller of toronto had to say about your world class talmid chochom. he misquotes rav moshe feinstein and leaves out half of the gro. what a joke. has he ever even written an article in hebrew?

    ReplyDelete
  48. To daas Torah,
    Do you know what Rav Vozner holds on this subject. I could not find anything in his seforim on it.
    Also, I would suggest that the best help for these woman are to prevent it before it happens. I won't take a son in law unless I know he has a rebbe he will listen to, nor will I take a mechatan who was involved in holding back a get.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Shaul's previous remarks demonstrate the bogus logic and intellectual dishonesty of the YU/ORA feminist politicos. In my previous comments I condemned ORA's actions in supporting Jewish women litigating in ARCHAOS (non-Jewish courts), actions which constitute M'SAYEH MOSRIM, one of the worst AVEIRAS in the Torah.

    I never justified or defended any Chareidim who are initiating lawsuits against other Jews in ARCHAOS. Should any Chareidim attempt to justify M'SIRAH I would condemn them just as I condemn ORA. The actions of those Chareidim allegedly operating in ARCHAOS have absolutely no relevance to the issue of ORA's brutal violations of HALACHA.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Which halacha have they violated? They have not threatened his person or property. The ONLY thing they have done is tell the whole world that Aharon Friedman does not want to give his wife a GET. If he is not obligated to give her a Get then they have done nothing wrong. If he is, they certainly have done nothing wrong. Why do you assume that publicizing his refusal is "humiliation" or "coercion"?

      Delete
    2. They have waged a campaign to get him fired from his job. Check ORA's twitter feed.

      Delete
    3. Aaron told me that he has already had a scrape with someone physically. When you demonize a person like ORA does, there are a lot of people out there who are just as crazy as H Scachter. Only he does it out of idealism, and they are just plain angry. I have said it before and I say it again. The video and audio files at yutorah from HS are filled with permission to use a baseball bat on Aharon Friedman or any husband who does not give a GET. Thus, how can Aharon give a GET that will surely be a victim of coercion?

      Delete
  50. James,
    Right now ORA is considered a heroic organization by people like you, because it terrorizes husband and their families. But demonizing people and fostering hate, especially Rabbi Schachter's 54 minute audio on internet that preaches the value of forcing husbands even physically will eventually lead to someone having a heart attack, or someone beaten, and then ORA will be charged with inciting criminal activities, and Rabbi Schachter will be looking for a good lawyer. And even if he escapes charges, the blood will be on his hands. And you who encourage this terror will share in it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do not consider ORA a heroic organization so lets lay off the "blood on your hands" charges.

      Try not to use phrases like "people like you".

      Delete
    2. "especially Rabbi Schachter's 54 minute audio on internet that preaches the value of forcing husbands even physically"

      Do you mean this 54 minute audio? Options for Helping Agunot

      I did not hear Rav Schachter endorse coercing husbands physically except when a beis din paskens kofin. Do you oppose this psak? Is it in any way controversial?

      If you mean something else, please indicate which minute because I believe you are misrepresenting Rav Schachter's position.

      Delete
    3. He quotes Bovo Kamo 28A that anyone can become a messenger of Beth Din WITHOUT A BETH DIN and break someone's bones if that person is doing a sin. And a husband who does not give a GET is a sinner. He also talks about a baseball bat as an instrument to beat the husband. Now, he may intone piously somewhere about a Beth Din, but it is clear what he wants.

      Gil, let me say this. You deserve better than this, and that jerk Broyde. Why don't you present us with Rabbi Willig? I hate succeeding in this work. It is a disgrace to the Rov zt"l. If he was alive, I would be out of business, and so would ORA. I really feel bad. I have nobody to even talk to, and here I am talking like this. Can you help me?

      Delete
  51. BS LeYaacov- As soon as you stop with the femisist labels we can get back to the real issues.. here's this from the NY Appelate court (arkaois!!!) regarding the the great shomrei hadas- Satmar.

    "The three actions pending before this court are related to the on-going dispute within the Chasidic Satmar community as to who is the successor to the late Grand Rebbe Moses Teitelbaum, Rabbi Zalman or Rabbi Aaron, the Grand Rebbe's two sons. For more than six years the two factions led by Jenoe Kahan (hereinafter "Kahan") on behalf of Rabbi Zalman and by Berl Friedman (hereinafter "Friedman") on behalf of Rabbi Aaron have been litigating in the courts as to who should be in control of the Board of Congregation Yetev Lev D'Satmar, Inc., (hereinafter "Congregation") . The Congregation operates multiple synagogues, butcher shops, a matzah bakery and several charitableorganization in the Satmar community."

    Are you prepared to belch about them the way you do you about Rav Shachter Shlita?

    ReplyDelete
  52. R Dovid Eidehnsohn- You have had the following exchanges:

    Gil StudentApr 25, 2012 06:26 AM
    "Against my advice, R. Broyde has written a response which I will be posting later today."

    ReplyDelete
    RepliesDovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 07:25 AM
    Why did you advise him not to respond? He is a brilliant person who can respond, which is why I kicked him down the steps. I wouldn't kick someone else down the steps, because they can't respond. He can, he should, and I will be waiting for him, but I respect him for battling for his beliefs. But I only wish that this won't become something other than a pure halacha contest. I feel that he has the capacity to keep things on a true halacha plane..."

    YApr 25, 2012 08:16 AM
    "Here is R' Broyde's response, which is now posted as the first comment to R' Broyde's original article: ...."

    So R Broyde responds, and what do we get?

    Dovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 09:19 AM
    "I have nothing to say about this because it didn't change my opinion one iota. The complaint about my tone is accepted. My wife hates it when I talk like this, but this is how I think my rebbes would have talked..." (nostalgia)

    How on earth do you expect anyone to take this kind of rhetoric seriously? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

    Now for more of the "pure halachic discourse":

    From your post:
    "Rabbi Broyde's article about protesting to help Agunahs is ... part and parcel of the new Torah emanating from the modern YU rabbis."

    Dovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 07:35 AM
    "...We must fight and humiliate the wicked who produce invalid divorces and mamzerim and say lies and twist things to teach everyone how to do serious sins. Making a mamzer is the ultimate child abuse, and those doing it are reshoim and we must fight them and humiliate them"

    Absolute pure Halachic discourse.

    Dovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 07:21 AM
    ... I discuss serious halacha because I learned with intense shimush from Reb Aharon Kotler and Reb Moshe Feinstein. That is why ( deal with halachic facts and not sound bites. For this, you talk about my clear halacha findings with a dismissal and contempt. But what will you do with the baby mamszerim when the haredi community won't marry them? Will you assure them that being declared a mamzer by primitives from the true Torah world is not a problem?"

    Who exactly is the true torah world? The Charedi gedolim that are all protesting? Apparently not.

    Dovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 07:15 AM
    "Stan,
    Excellent point. The silence of everyone about invalid Gittin is astonishing. At last a few of us are protesting. Someone quoted a chazal that if someone in Sedom had protested it would not have been destroyed. Who knows what reward there is for those who do protest while others sleep."

    I imagine R Eidehsohn will be similarly astonished when Charedi gedolim don't protest the babies.

    Dovid EidensohnApr 25, 2012 08:16 AM
    "Joel,
    I am regularly interviewed by the Rockland County, NY paper, and have been on national radio and television. My youtube.com/mons555 has over 200 videos and one of them got over 5000 views, the one about marriage, family and children."

    My guess is that approximately 2500 were from S.T.A.N.

    "Google honored me by removing the length limit on my videos."

    Mazel Tov. Kein Yirbu googlim be'yisrael. I'm sure R Moshe Feinstein would have 'LIKED' your "teshuvos" in google form.

    ReplyDelete
  53. ORA is now preparing a new campaign to terrorize a congressman, Congressman Camp, a very powerful and influence congressman. This is clearly a dangerous thing, aggravating the leaders of the country we live in. People will say, "What are these Orthodox Jews going to do, control the country?" The tragedy of all of this is that even if ORA does force a divorce from Mr. Friedman, it will be invalid, because it is coerced. But if the wicked want to make a new effort, we must make a new effort, to fight them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. You can question ORA's methods, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

      2. You would be the direct cause of this "tragedy" as you are mevatel gedolim v'tovim who hold the get to be kosher v'yosher.

      3. I would think that the gleeful bandying of charges of Eishes Ish and Mamzeirus is far more wicked.

      Delete
    2. YG Bechhofer:

      Many poskim, including today's posek hador Rav Eliashev shlita, hold the divorce is a get meusa and a remarriage is adultery and future children are mamzeirim. Rav Dovid Eidensohn shlita is simply propogating, announcing and advocating this psak (Rav Eliashev, et al), as he is empowered and has a right to do. Even if some other poskim disagree with Rav Eliashev shlita.

      Delete
    3. posek hador Rav Eliashev shlita, hold the divorce is a get meusa and a remarriage is adultery and future children are mamzeirim.

      Source please(and don't quote Kovetz Teshuvot because Rav Eliashiv has ruled contrary to what is found there, and he didn't actually write that sefer). Furthermore Maran Posek Hador HaMekubal HaElokit HaTzadik Yesodei HaOlam HaGaon HaRav Ovadia Yosef Shlit"a rules contrary.

      Delete
  54. Shaul,
    Regarding my exchange with Rabbi Broyde I saw that my essential points, that he lied about Reb Moshe and the Gro, and quoted a rabbinical council response that had nothing to do with MOUS OLEI, was not answered or resolved. I didn't want to say that at that time. Make no mistake about it, the reply of Rabbi Broyde was pure blah, as he did not answer properly one of my major points. Also, I pointed out to him a Teshuva from Reb Moshe that considers the PIRUD of Rabbeinu Tam an extremely stressful coercion, even more than taking one's money, but Rabby Broyde just ignored that and wrote that the PIRUD is not even a serious coercion, which is obviously wrong, at least as Reb Moshe is concerned. How can I argue with such a person who lies and ignores and just blah blahs his way into possible mamzeruth? But you may say that I should at least make a formal response, and I am working on some things.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Batmelech,
    I wrote that I befriended a Nazi and made a website jewhaters.com with his encouragement. He also invited me on his radio show and we maintained correspondence for a while. After that, another Nazi contacted me, but this time it didn't work out well. He was a European and much different than the first one. So he is out there on the Internet banging away at me for what it is worth. That is the Nazi you read about.

    ReplyDelete
  56. I would like to comment on those who delight in dinging and zinging me, as if I was public enemy number one. I ask them, why don't they reply to my recent point that Rabbi Schechter encourages physical violence. The husbands are beaten by experts who can really give a smack. The ORA terrorists cause great stress to old family members who have various ailments. Why does nobody care about these innocent people, and why does nobody respond to my protest about beating people, something that could result in maiming or even death? And now ORA is embarking on a new campaign to terrorize an important congressman. This has been written up in various national publications, and the public was not happy with this. But ORA under Rabbi Schachter wants to take over people's lives, in a democracy. This can only make a bad name. And when somebody gets beaten, or maimed, or killed or has a heart attack from ORA's terrorism, what chilul haShem will it be, that the Rosh Yeshiva of YU encouraged this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I ask them, why don't they reply to my recent point that Rabbi Schechter encourages physical violence. Probably because we are not convinced that he does.

      The ORA terrorists cause great stress to old family members who have various ailments.
      Considering that the Beit Yosef rules that one may beat a man's father until the father tells him to give a Get and then beat the man to do what his father told him to do... "stressing" family members seems rather passive, and the burden lies on you to show that it is not within the parameters of what the B"Y said there(Eh"E Siman 154, right after the Rashba you like to quote him as bringing).

      Why does nobody care about these innocent people, and why does nobody respond to my protest about beating people, something that could result in maiming or even death?
      Probably because you have made so many wild and unsubstantiated claims that we no longer take you seriously. When you can show us how the various Gedolim whose Teshuvot were brought here, were mistaken in their understanding of the sources, as you claimed, then perhaps we will listen(or laugh... we will have to wait and see).

      Instead of rationally debating the sources you have fallen back on what you call "pepper" and wild statements, while not actually delivering any substance or responding(at least rationally) to any reasoned arguments.

      Delete
  57. Rabbi Dovid,

    The issue at hand I believe that should be your greatest concern is, that your tone of disrespect is not effective for serious Torah discussion. If you want to be heard, you should consult with someone who is a serious writer to help get your message across.

    Rabbi Daniel,

    In general, I think you have accomplished much on this blog and the more focus it has the better it is.

    A few quick comments to be helpful; 1. Rav Shternbuch's suggestions for Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam is wonderful and is possibly used by some Botei Din, Your esteemed brothers attacks on this approach are some you should consider as to whether they are appropriate to publish due both to my earlier comment regarding his tone and also due to the fact that other aside from his own protestations of being an authority on Halacha, your brother holds no public position where he has been entrusted by a Klal to deal with these matters.

    now I know blood runs thick, but maybe its time for you to at least require a bit of editing on his part for the ake of your own reputation and taht of your blog.

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  58. Moshe,
    There is a method to the madness. I am not interested in debating people in halacha when they are obvious remote from normative halacha. I want to point out that they are outside of the pale of halacha, and do what they do with falsehoods and tricks. For this I must be forceful. . But you are right, that the message to people suffers when it comes across with too much pepper. But what do you say about my point, my criticism of my critics, that they are not concerned with a path of violence and chilul HaShem encouraged by a rabbi who openly calls for beatings. And this in defiance of normative halacha.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Dovid Eidensohn wrote on Apr 26, 2012 06:53 PM:

    "the real goal has got to be to start looking into the reasons marriages are failing in the Torah community. People spend years learning Torah and musar and end up in court. What happened? The major problem is that our communities have adapted frumkeiten and idealisms opposed by the Torah, and when things fall apart, they become even more frum. I refer to THE FRUMKEIT OF IGNORING YOUR WIFE AND NOT WORKING, but everywhere are idealisms that destroy. WHy can't we discuss them?"

    R' Dovid,

    It's time that I briefly respond to this wild quasi-righteous battle you're waging to save Torah marriages." I know it well, since about a yr ago I found one of your websites and contacted you for help with trying to save the marriage my wife was outrageously deconstructing. You ostensibly wanted to help and we did some lengthy correspondence and phone calls. In the end, however, your agenda was crystal clear in it's inability to do much more than give you a platform for ranting about superficial solutions for a very real problem.

    As you said in the quotes above, you made it also clear to me that you had some deeply ingrained explanations for WHY Torah marriages are falling a part: Excessive frumkeit and not enough attention to the wife's very this-worldly needs. Interesting indeed, but it just did not quite jibe with our situation. No-no-no, you wouldn't hear from it! If I wanted you to help I would need to TOTALLY trust you to negotiate some sort of compromise with my wife that YOU deemed fair. You had no intention to help us assess if there were some substantial issues that needed to be re-looked at. It was either trust that you're agenda about helping her feel more secure or nothing!

    I will not go into detail here about our case, but by now it has been proven that she has some as very complex problems. The BD she initiated has already officially thrown her case out! (But she's appealing - fun!). My point is that I believe you're SEEKING the correct issue (that Torah marriages are failing due to a major disconnect between our beliefs and practices) but attempting to resolve them with abysmally superficial ideas.

    It is NOT about making her more secure, or giving her more sex, or being less ideologically frum, etc, etc, but about the need to facilitate the COMMUNICATION of the couple as reyim ahuvim.

    "lo tov hiyos Adom levado".

    BOTH him and her are included in the Adom.

    We need to learn through the Torah how to unify not passify!

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    1. I am deeply concerned when reading about your problems.

      However, I do not think that refusing a get will heal them. It might be that your wife will not be as happy with a get as she thinks now.

      But what forcing her to stay would be co-dependence on your part. There are problems in the world you cannot solve for someone else.

      Delete
    2. YY and BatMelech, if he wants the marriage to work but she is still asking for a get, whether he needs to give the get depends on how much time has passed. If it has been many months, or Hashem forbid years, by all means give the get. A divorce is a sad thing indeed, but refusing a get when there's no chance of reconciliation is worse -- it is sheer cruelty, which is the opposite of all that Torah is about. It is not for you to decide what the best context is for her to serve Hashem.

      YY: If you are looking for other ideas besides R' Eidensohn's, I strongly recommend you read and implement Rav Shalom Arush's book Garden of Peace, which is a really extraordinary work that has saved many marriages (even those of non-Jews). If questions arise while trying to implement the book's teachings, email the ever-accessible Rav Lazer Brody, who translate's Rav Arush's books and is the mashgiach at his yeshiva.

      Delete
  60. Bat -- my wife is not merely "someone else"!

    Why is that so hard to grasp?

    A Torah marriage bonds NESHAMAS! And after a quarter century and kids and now even some wonderfully delctable grandkids, thank G-d, the question is no longer simply about what might make HER happier but what is best for the entire family and what's the best context for where she (and I for that matter) can serve H'.

    After a Torah marriage, a Binyan adei ad, has been established, the presumption is that ONLY within that marriage can these neshamas thrive. The Gemmora tells us the Mizbeach (Altar) weeps at divorces. WHY IS NO ONE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT??

    To make the Altar weep, you better have a darn good reason.

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  61. yy,
    It is not a strange thing that I could not save your marriage. And if my agenda was to work on serious problems pervasive in the Torah world, that is also worthwhile. The private stuff requires a miracle or very good therapist to work, but I have had the satisfaction of helping with that part of the marriage, certain mistaken frumkeits, for instance, that people praised me for helping them with. People have told me that my website kedusho.com and my CDs helped them very much. But I didn't help you, and I am sorry. I took no money from you, and I don't know if I made things worse, and I did spend, as you said, time and effort. And for doing this, people like me often are blamed.

    ReplyDelete
  62. yy,
    You say that I had "abysmally superficial ideas" to help with. So why didn't you go to a professional therapist? And regarding my absymally superficial ideas, I don't remember you and your situation at all, but I will say that the ideas I have on marriage are rooted in Chazal and in the teachings of Gedolei HaDor. I wrote a sefer on the halacha of family based upon the teachings of many great rabbis, in Hebrew, and then a book in English, about marriage and gender, filled with ideas from Chazal and Cabala on the relationships of the genders especially about women. But I am sorry if all of this was to you abysmally superficial ideas.

    ReplyDelete
  63. ATTENTION PLEASE - There is now an important discussion on the pesak of Reb Elyashev not to force Gittin. I maintain there that an audio tape from Rabbi Herschal Schachter entitled OPtions for Helping Agunoth at 13:50 of the tape we hear RHS state clearly that anytime a marriage breaks up as it does today and the wife leaves the house and marriage, we may beat the husband with sticks to force a GET, and this beating, according to earlier parts of the tape, can be done unto death.

    This is a hideous mistake in halacha because if it is true any woman who wants a GET can simply leave the house and declare the marriage dead, something never mentioned in halacha seforim. And this call to beat and perhaps kill is made without consulting anyone else, not even the Gedolei HaDor. Why did RHS not consult the son-in-law of Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Lichenstein, a mighty genius? Here we have a person so arrogant that although the gedolei hador in every generation were afraid to use their sevorose without support, he is ready to talk about beating and killing with no support from the halacha literature or any living rabbi. This is a horror, a real shame that such a person controls ORA and who knows what will happen with this kind of public teaching about violence.

    ReplyDelete
  64. This article is proof that political bias totally distorts a person's logic and reasoning.

    The author, who I have respected strongly in the past for his work on abuse, says "it is obvious from the great Poskim I will quote with nobody disagreeing that it is a coerced GET and invalid GET to picket and humiliate a husband in MOUS OLEI especially when this is done in public."

    But the same blog author recently quoted Rav Shternbuch SHLITA as saying "it is clear that the Chazon Ish would agree that if these isolation techniques of Rabbeinu Tam are done as long as it doesn't constitute nidui the GET is valid... As long as there is only humiliation [and not physical force] there is no problem...." Rav Shternbuch also cited many da'os that permitted much more than this, although he himself was machmer to some extent, and he said specifically that one cannot be overly machmer (not to go after the husband) because of the problems that that would cause.

    Yes, Rav Shternbuch then goes on to outline how he things the harchakos should be implemented. But bottom line, Rav Shternbuch specifically refuted the blanket statement made in this blog message about humiliation resulting in an invalid get.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Not all humiliation is equal.

      There is an important distinction you are missing that is clearly inherent in Rav Sternbuch's understanding of the limits of Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam. Yes there is humiliation - but that comes from the social isolation. He even says not to mention explicitly the word divorce!

      So if you bothered to read the many sources that I translated and posted you will notice a common view. There is an agreement that pressure can be supplied in special circumstances but the pressure has to be indirect, it must be escapable by moving out of the community and it involves passive means by avoidance - not in your face demonstrations. So you clearly misunderstood my assertion. "picket and humiliate" is not the same thing as humiliation that results from not getting an aliya.

      Bottom line - I have not found a single posek who permits the active inescapable humiliation practiced by ORA where relatives are targeted as well as employers and there is a widespread media blitz in the major secular media. In Yitzy Hillel's recent guest post of the views of Rav Schacter expressed in 3 different tapes - we find that Rav Schachter gives three different and inconsistent explanations.

      Delete
  65. just a peep from the peanut gallery that I think R' Eidsonsohn, in his last comments, is finally speaking mammash l'inyan.

    He said: "This is a hideous mistake in halacha because if it is true any woman who wants a GET can simply leave the house and declare the marriage dead, something never mentioned in halacha seforim. And this call to beat and perhaps kill is made without consulting anyone else, not even the Gedolei HaDor. Why did RHS not consult..."

    These are totally clear, sound, non-obnoxious points of a genuinely pained Talmid Chocham standing up for kavod ha'Torah and obvious moral concerns of the times.

    Re. my personal issues about how he so quickly used my case to rant about his ideological crusade and how the solutions that he had try to employ for helping my marriage were "abysmally superficial", all I can say is that I think this precisely brings out the problem of knowing Emes but not knowing how to apply it to ben-adom-l'chaveiro reality.

    Simply buttressing yourself in arguements about how the ideas you employ are from chazal does not a tsaddik make! In fact, using Torah improperly can be like doing so with dynamite!

    I agree (tho I'm a nobody) that RHS and his school of thought are making big mistakes in the way they learn chazal. Nevertheless, knowing chazal properly is NOT THE END OF THE STORY!

    We must learn and teach Torah l'shma -- for it's PURPOSE, which is to mekarev ha'brios, l'saken Oilam, etc, etc.

    Ranting and spewing platitudes, no matter how correct, is not the way.

    ReplyDelete
  66. yy,
    Thank you very much for the chizuk, and it is especially valued because you seem to be upset with me about something. And I ask your forgiveness about the other thing, as I said, anyone with a brain gets involved in marriage counseling only if they get paid very well, because most of the time it ends up the way you attacked me. I took no money, but I took the blame. THat is stupid. But I am stupid. That is how I was raised. And I will be stupid the next time also. I repeat, your compliments to me despite your pain is a real class act. May HaShem send you peace and happiness.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. amen.

      I hope to later relate to your questions about what upsets me in some of your attitude and philosophy, what exactly is the Mitzvah of marriage counseling, and how I managed to pull off that "class act."

      Keep up the good work in the way you're doing the comments on the latest posts.

      Delete
  67. In case you were wondering why I haven't commented here in over a month...

    Reading this blog has become a violation of sitting in a moshav leitzim and bal teshaqtzu.

    Continue ignoring the generally accepted pesaq as per Rav Shternbuch, the Tiztz Eliezer, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Ben Ish Hai, the Yaskil Avdei, and Yabia Omer. Insist that the only right answer is the chumerah of a daas Yachid when the only person losing out is an agunah. Kivan shehotzi es atzmo min hakellal, kafar be'iqar.

    As the Kotzker said before he went back into hiding, "Farmacht de fenster, dem velt shtenk!"

    ReplyDelete
  68. Welcome to the reason that I, and so many like me, middle-aged, solidly frum men, have been pushed the border of this, once beautiful, religion. I'm not sure if it's the brazenness of this fraudulent concept of a reconstituted "Daas Torah" that was invented by the Agudah in the 1900's to get the lemmings to fall in line politically. Or if it's the sheer haughtiness of those who pretend to follow this apparition, thinking they have THE "emes". Or their bald-faced hypocrisy as they prattle about on their blogs while twiddling their Smartphones.

    Whatever it is, they've morphed Judaism into an ugly, and unwanted Frankenstein's monster. Their Judaism has become a sinister anachronism that abuses women already in abusive marriages. (That one is directly on the shoulders of you and the ilk you're defending.) And even though you've spoken out against abuse, clearly you protect the system that protects the abusers, you can't have it both ways. And of course, at least in Israel, their vile "Rabbis" maltreat the Ger, in clear violation of Torah law.

    It's no wonder that a mere 19% of Israelis view Orthodoxy in a positive light. My only issue with Rabbis like Broyde and Schechter, is that they show too much fidelity to this broken system. It's time for a break, for normal, caring, humane people to leave the rest of you wallowing in this filth you've created.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Daas Torah -- do you really want to be used for the hanging of such filthy laundry as these last two commentators are doing. Your brother's excesses were bad enough, but this now looks like its becoming a format for a civil war!

    "Sinister anachronism"??

    Blaming the Halachic system for wife abuse??

    "wallowing in the filth..."??

    And during the Omer, BEFORE L'G, of all times!

    We ALL have to relearn how to be noheg kavod zeh-l'zeh. Certainly the t. chachamim who strive to be amongst Rebbe Akiva's talmidim. ALSO the wives who are crying wolf and engaging in the nastiest meridas, drawing on the wiles of the first woman who just HAD to share her yeitzer with eeshAH eemAH (see Rash"y there) to teach him a lesson.

    And yes -- also the men who use seruv ha'Get for no other reason that to extort, retaliate or bash.

    There are some basic P. Avos, chapter I truths that everyone seems to be ignoring in these discussions, like haveh dan es kol ha'Adam l'kaf zchus, ohev es ha'brios u'mikarvan l'Torah, etc, etc.

    Isn't it time to be m'kadesh sh"sh on a blog of this holy name?

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Oh yy, I haven't scratched the surface. You have no idea what's going on out here. Eidensohn's behavior is merely a symptom of a growing disease. I'm honestly not sure the patient (Judaism) will survive.

      As an aside, Eidensohn's "excuse" for his horrid personal attacks on R's Broyde and Schechter that it's the way his Rabbi's used to behave, is bizarre beyond belief. The Rabbis of that era also used to beat their students. I don't imagine our little crusader would accept an excuse from a modern abuser of that's what my Rabbis used to do. Oh the hypocrisy!

      Delete
  70. Michael Scott,
    Haredi Judaism is the fastest growing religion in the world. People flock to the Haredi banner, many of them from modern Orthodox parents, and the parents themselves are often becoming Haredi. The attraction for many people is a desperate need to escape the family-less secular world, and many women come to us desperate to be as extreme as they can. Now, we can comment on this and say hey take it easy. But it is obvious that many people are more afraid of the outer world with all of its concern for women than the extremely religious world. This is true in the Moslem world as well. Many women want out of a world that smells of secularism and they adapt for a religion that is very harsh on women, but believes in family. The secular world is a place where third marriages are common, and the children in them are miserable. Sure, Haredi Judaism has problems, and many people leave us also, but the movement is growing and exploding. My children are happy that they were raised Haredi, and my oldest daughter, when she left the house in her gown for the wedding, took me aside and thanked me for raising her in the extreme manner that we did. Now she is a grandmother and all of them are extreme and thrilled with it. They don't need people like you to summon them to the hell of secularism and modern Orthodoxy, a religion noted for huge numbers of people who don't marry at all. How happy are single women? And how happy are women who are divorced? At least, Haredi Jews live in a community that wants children growing up without divorce,although there are divorces, and although there are problems, it is still miles better than what you are talking about. Tell me about your children.

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    Replies
    1. Though full of anger and animosity, you impress me as an intelligent man. Thus, I'm sure you're aware that "fastest growing" has limited meaning unless you know the context. Could be that Chareidism is the "fastest growing", but it's minuscule and thus that statistic is relatively meaningless. If I started a religion tomorrow, Scottish Judaism, and a week later I had 10 followers, why then, I would have the fastest growing religion.

      However, what is amazingly telling about your statement is that you actually called Chareidi Judaism a "religion". BINGO! Thank you for making my point. The religion you call "Chareidi Judaism" is, as was Reform and Conservative before it, a new derivative of Judaism. And just as Christianity before it did, it claims a replacement theology. It has the audacity to create a concept called Daas Torah which it uses to whip its adherents in line and fool them into believing that this religion is the new Mesorah. You see the growth of a new religion, as impressive as you think yours might be for now, says nothing to its validity relative to its parent religion. (See Christianity and Islam).

      Now of course, this is a bit tongue in cheek, but you stepped into it and where sunken up to your neck and I couldn't resist. Though there is much truth in what I just said, the real truth is that most "Chareidim" are not "extreme" like you raised your daughter. Here in Israel we are seeing very hopeful signs of normalization in the Chareidi world. The only people who really fear this are the extremists, like you and your daughter. And actually if you factor out the Chareidim that are normalizing, I think you'll find that your religion is not growing quite as fast as you want to believe.

      With its "Daas Torah", restrictive high walls, and narrow minded philosophy there's little separating your extreme Chareidi Judaim from a cult. And of course the greatest threat to a cult and its leaders is information. Witness the Asifa being planned for Citi Field in Queens. The internet is freaking the leadership out. But it's not because of porn, that's just a smokescreen, the real fear is knowledge. Its the idea that there may actually be validity to the "other".

      This is, of course, also why you went apoplectic in response to Rabbi Broyde. You are forced to belittle him and his ideas or your minions might, God forbid, actually realize that he's a brilliant Talmud Chachom of the first order. And then, they might actually start reading some of the incredibly insightful things he's written. And then, horror of horrors, they might actually realize that not everything you've been selling them is the absolute Emes. This, my friend, is the reason, as you said, that you felt the need to bring great men like Rabbis Broyde and Shechter down a few steps. For if you actually argued with them as an intellectual then you run the risk of legitimizing them and jeopardizing your little house of cards.

      Yes you're having lots of children and growing fast. As always, the pendulum will swing back, you decedents will normalize, and hopefully, your "religion" will just be a footnote in Jewish history. The alternative is to awful to imagine.

      Delete
  71. Michael Scott,
    You write, "Whatever it is, they've morphed Judaism into an ugly, and unwanted Frankenstein's monster. Their Judaism has become a sinister anachronism that abuses women already in abusive marriages. (That one is directly on the shoulders of you and the ilk you're defending.)"

    Michael, you call Haredi Judaism a "monster" but the fact is that Haredi Judaism is the fastest growing religion in the world. You are full of hate, and you pour it on me and my religion, but if my daughters heard you ranting, they would laugh. At least a Haredi woman has a chance to find a life, with children and grandchildren, etc. The ladies free to roam the world and watch movies, I pity them, but they are a product of a secular society that cannot succeed in human relationships.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Micha Berger,
    You write that people like me, "Continue ignoring the generally accepted pesaq as per Rav Shternbuch, the Tiztz Eliezer, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Ben Ish Hai, the Yaskil Avdei, and Yabia Omer. Insist that the only right answer is the chumerah of a daas Yachid when the only person losing out is an agunah. Kivan shehotzi es atzmo min hakellal, kafar be'iqar." The Hebrew you uttered at the end consigns me to the status of a denier of G-d. This is a new tactic in the new-Gittin-law modern Orthodoxy, that whoever doesn't agree with them to change the Torah to help Agunoth is an apikores. Okay, you consider me an apikores.

    I see you consider the senior authority of the world who says that a woman may not force a divorce as an individual that everyone else opposes, including Reb Moshe Feinstein. Now I agree that on this blog there are people who say these things, but I am a disciple of Reb Moshe Feinstein, and he gave me very warm approbations for my halacha seforim, and I have studied his works, and I assure you that Reb Moshe Feinstein does not approve of what ORA is doing. Nobody does. But just keep up quoting people who don't know how to learn, and listen to their lies, and consign the people who bother really studying the issue to the status of apikorsim.

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    Replies
    1. Yes, that is correct, Dovid. I did intend to say that someone who uses sheqer, motzi sheim ra, and sin'as chinam to promote a lack of machloqes by denying the historically and currently dominant shitah is preaching a teaching that is michutz lamachaneh.

      You dimiss everyone else, and then, after your brother stoooping to give you free rein for two months, you can't handle someone treating you the way you treat R' Herschel Schachter. The difference is, I didn't have to make things up.

      Delete
  73. So I use lies, false accusations and pure hate and deny the true halacha, and guess what folks, I even agree with what all poskim I discussed this with say, as they all agree with me, even the rabbis who made the SIRUV against AF, that public humiliation is forbidden and can invalidate the GET. And of course, that maligned rabbi in Jerusalem, well, if he knew that Micha disapproved of his findings, which happens to be rooted in at least two rishonim and quoted by the Shita,and probably is the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch, he would simply tear out the opposing opinions from his seforim, and the world would then exist according to the opinion of Micha Berger. Micha, where did you get your training in halacha? I got it from Reb Aharon Kotler, Reb Moshe Feinstein, Reb Yaacov Kaminetsky, Reb Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and many more gedolei hador of the past and present generation. And I am sure that you would dismiss all of this, because I never studied under you.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Michael Scott,
    You say, "This is, of course, also why you went apoplectic in response to Rabbi Broyde because" if my people in the Haredi camp would listen to Rabbi Broyde, they would realize that everything they believe in is nonsense, and that Haredi Judaism is pure poison, and that Dovid Eidensohn is just a hater and a jerk, or some such terms.

    The first lie is that I went apoplectic. I showed in black and white terms that his claims that Rabbi Feinstein and the GRO proved his opinion were lies and false. That is my job as a scholar. It is not as you put it me foaming at the mouth. But of course, a person like you, and there are many of them around, can't deal with the scholarly issues, so they just call names, and spill hate, and their favorite tactic is to claim that I just call names and spill hate. Anyone who reviews what I said to Rabbi Broyde realizes that his entire structure is a lie. It may not be nice to say that, but it is true. And what you say is so far off that I have to think what words to use, but I reserve the full blast of verbiage for a brilliant scholar who can defend himself, and I won't start with you in that mode.

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    1. "That is my job as a scholar." ROTFL

      "Scholars", true scholars, have enough faith in their scholarship not to personally attack their opponents, their opponent's mentors, and their opponent's institutions. The insecurity you have in your position is glaringly obvious. And judging by the sheer number of words, mostly vitriolic, that you've spilled here, you clearly do not believe that the Torah, at the least the one you've refashioned in your own image, does not need defending.

      Maybe you should spend a few sessions on your brother's couch to work out some of these issues.

      Delete
  75. Michael Scott,
    You write, "Yes you're having lots of children and growing fast. As always, the pendulum will swing back, you decedents will normalize, and hopefully, your "religion" will just be a footnote in Jewish history. The alternative is to awful to imagine." In my neighborhood are many doctors and very educated people who are Haredim, many of them baalei teshuva, and their number increases daily. Someone asked me a question about an inheritance, and it turned out he was a relative of the QUeen of England, or a convert. I was surprised but he said, "We are all over the place in Monsey, but nobody notices it and we marry and settle in along with everybody else." And this religion, Haredi Judaism, that gives so much comfort to Jew and gentile, who are gathering into our camp daily, are to you "decedents."

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    1. I guess you don't understand numbers as well I had assumed. Chaval. You combine anecdotal information about your "neighbors" with a false sense of realty created by have a few, very few, concentrated areas that have "large" numbers of Chareidim and you end up with delusions of grandeur. Try this. Go to Google Earth, zoom in on Monsey or Boro Park or Lakewood, now slowly zoom out. Maybe, just maybe, that will give you a concept of just how absurd you sound to everyone outside your physical and psychological ghettos.

      And this does even address the rot from within. Ethical issues, for example, are more the norm than the exception in these communities.

      Delete
    2. Oh, and one more thing, if you want to play the game anecdotally you will lose. For every new BT doctor or "educated" person in your community, I'll show you one who's left your community. Some of them stop in mine, but many, far too many have been so traumatized by yours that they just run and keep on running.

      And in every one of those "massive" centers of your religion there are growing number of people, through blogs and other means, desperately looking for ways to get out. And then there are so many others who have simply given up and just walk the walk as empty shells.

      Delete
  76. I didn't malign any rabbis in Y-m, unless you live there.

    I said that you were unfairly maligning rabbis who are capable of being RYSE's baal pelugta. Apparently the entire concept of machloqes is alien to you, so that if I say shitah X is not only valid, but historically has and still does hold the majority, I am saying something critical about the rav who was mechadeish Y. Saying that rov posqim are meiqil doesn't mean disapproving of the machmir.

    However, I feel very sorry for RYSE, if people like yourself cloak his words in sin'ah, pirud, sheqer and sheer ignorance of the history of shu"t on the subject. I feel even sorrier for the people who tried to be your rabbeim. Perhaps if you would have had one rebbe, and were actually meshameish your rebbe... There is no way a list of gedolim could justify the tone you take to those you disagree with. I know of a man who studied under Shimon ben Shetach who also ended up making up lies and presenting them as a defense of Torah.

    The odd thing is, the Torah didn't need defending.

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    1. Micha,
      You conclude by saying, "The odd thing is, the Torah didn't need defeneding." As long as Michas are around talking about the Torah, the Torah needs defending.

      Delete
  77. Micha,
    You say, "You dimiss everyone else, and then, after your brother stoooping to give you free rein for two months, you can't handle someone treating you the way you treat R' Herschel Schachter. The difference is, I didn't have to make things up." Question: WHo is "everyone else." Are you "everyone else"? 2) My brother stoops to give me free rein". Since I posted here the blog has shot up from 8k to 15k of page views. This is not stooping. It is good business, because people are interested in this topic and will listen to a scholar even if others who are not scholars pour hate and lies on him. And what is that that I can't handle how you treat me? And what is this that I make things up and you don't? My friend, you are fighting the only way you can, and I hope you keep it up, because it is funny to watch.

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    1. Everyone else: Beis Yosef, Chakham Tzvi, the Gro (despite your version), the Tzitz Eliezer (see 17:51, Rav Ovadia and R' Kulitz also sign the teshuvah), batei din across two continents... R' Michael Tadok also posted citations. You don't deal with citations; you just go back to entrenched name calling.

      Could anyone picture R' Aharon, R' Yaakov or R' Moshe going ad hominem the way you are? "Intense shimush" indeed.

      Not people silly enough to waste time here. And yes, the blogs that have hot fighting get the most hits. If you blog straight Torah, no one is interested. The blog format naturally makes leitzanus tempting. And yes, you are acting like a leitz, a shaqran, and a poreish min hatzibur. You can't simply defend your rav; to engage in milkhamta shel Torah, machloqes lesheim Shamayim. You can't even tell the difference between someone saying one shitah is the majority opinion and personally insulting someone who is machmir beyond it.

      You are doing a disservice to RYSE by attaching his name to your us-vs-them infighting tirades. And if it wasn't about a prejudice against Modern Orthodox, why did you attack RHS but not R' Ovadia for saying the same thing? And ROY was working WITH RYSE on the same beis din at the time he wrote many of those teshuvos!

      Delete
  78. Micha says,

    "Reading this blog has become a violation of sitting in a moshav leitzim and bal teshaqtzu."

    Now, the 15000 page views by people all over is a refutation of that or a condemnation of those thousands of people. Are they all letsim? Are you really the only serious person left in the world?

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    1. Now, the 15000 page views by people all over is a refutation of that or a condemnation of those thousands of people. Are they all letsim?

      Sadly, if the readership jump is as you say, it is a sad sad confirmation of it.

      The truth is that most people would not stick around for an esoteric discussion on halakha and important issues. However, you give them a lively debate with people throwing around racial slander and racial epithets and suddenly you have an audience.
      It may be good business... It certainly was for Jerry Springer when he did a talk show the same way, but that is all it is, an entertainment business.
      What you have succeeded in doing is ensuring that no one will take you anymore seriously than anyone ever took Jerry Springer. You are good for a cheap thrill, but everyone knows you are too detached from reality, just by your behavior, to at all be taken seriously.

      Delete
  79. Dovy,
    You say, "Reb Dovid: Everyone thinks they're right and that is G-d is on their side -- even crazy Muslims. One can learn a lot from the respectful way that Rabbi Slifkin answers his opponents and which made a big impression on me. Also, can you picture Reb Moshe or Reb Yakov answering like you have?"
    Dovy, I had gedoleim for rebbes who were firebrands, and I studied under Reb Moshe and Reb Yaacov. Yes, I agree with you, that these great gedolim would not talk like that, not because of shito or philosophy, but because their nature was far removed from such. On the other hand, my main rebbes in my youth did speak this way, and much worse. But on second thought, do I really know what Reb Moshe would say when somebody would tell him a bald lie in the name of the Vilna Gaon to support a coerced GET? No, I don't know what he would do, but I would be frightened to find out.

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  80. We must give my brother credit. He has brought out things in his blog that nobody had the courage to address, and he has rectified wrongs that nobody even thought about. There is a special reward for such people. I don't say that everybody agrees with every word on this blog but even as 15k pages are turned here in a week, people must appreciate the hard work my brother has done to present this, and the value that such a blog has for bringing honesty into the Torah world.

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  81. I just received a phone call from someone who had suffered greatly in his marriage, and we had a long talk about the whole situation. To answer his questions, I told him that the destruction of marriage and the wars that lead to divorce or lack of divorce are both external and internal. That is, Rabbi Yehuda the Chosid tells us that we are influenced by the surrounding gentile society, for better or worse. Sefer Chassidmi 1101. Today we live in a society that does not prize marriage, and only 51$ of eligible people are married. But my rebbes told me that the bigger problem is the internal problem, when the Torah community is inundated with extreme idealism that simply frustrates people. For instance, those who teach that working is wrong that only learning is worthwhile to become a Gadol And since almost nobody achieves this level except the Rosh Yeshiva's children, people are frustrated and this leads to broken marriages and children with problems. Also, there are idealists who consider intimacy a dangerous thing and something to be avoided and denigrated, until the desperate couple collapses or goes onto the Internet or worse. We are in a trap of false idealism. I once discussed this for two hours with my mechuten the Gaon Reb Mayer Brandsdorfer zt'l. I don't say he agreed with me, because he was the head of the Perushim in Jerusalem, but he did say, "You have the sources." The sources are good enough for me. Not everyone can be a porush. And today, not everyone should be a porush.

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    1. But people you counsel do not head your advice, as shown by yy who posted here...

      So there will also be a residual problem of wives, who, after all is said and done, want a divorce and husbands who try to refuse it to them.

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  82. In the above conversation I explained to the caller that MOUS OLEI in my humble opinion does not mean that she is mad at the husband for doing something bad or not doing something good. MOUS OLEI it would seem from the Rambam and others is when the wife is repulsed so she cannot stand having intimacy with him. But if she can have intimacy, even if she hates him personally, this is not MOUS OLEI, although it may be grounds to seek a divorce. But the Rambam may not consider such a thing grounds for coercion. Of course, we don't pasken like the Rambam and no MOUS OLEI deserves coercion.

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  83. Also in the above conversation I stated that I see how much money and energy goes into ORA to force a divorce. But how much money and energy goes into making healthy marriages and preventing divorce? What a stupid world this is. But complaining is wrong. Let us do something. If anyone wants to join me to do something about improving marriages, learning about dating and shidduchim, learning how to raise children and marry them off, learning how to live the way Chazal told us to live, and not with the fantasies of today that destroy people spiritually and materially, please contact me. This is an open forum, and anyone who has an idea of how to improve things, please let me know.

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