Saturday, January 24, 2015

YWN posts a seriously flawed translation of MK Gafni claiming he said that those who work are not Chareidi

The following seriously flawed translation of an interview with MK Gafni published by Yeshiva World News  was sent to me. It mistakenly claims that MK Gafni says  that you can't be a chareidi and work. Recording of interview is here
===this is an excerpt from YWN incorrect  translation=====

Yeshiva World News Breaking Headlines
Speaking with Mordechai Lavi of Kol Berama Radio on Tuesday morning 29 Teves, MK Moshe Gafne explained from his perspective there is no such thing as ‘working chareidi’.
Following is excerpts from the radio interview which lasted over 20 minutes.
I do not accept the categorization. There are those who opt to leave yeshiva and join the working community.
Are they called chareidim?
No they are not. I do not accept this. It does not exist. One who does not learn in kollel and works has left.

Here is the version published in the Hebrew Mishpacha where MK Gafni clearly says that Chareidim are not defined on the basis of whether they work or learn in Kollel - but rather their allegiance to gedolim

 My translation of MK Gafni's words 
....There is no such thing as "working chareidim" There are simply people who are chareidim. A person who educates his children the obey the gedoim is charedi. Why should it make a difference whether he works or not
============================This is Mishpachah's transcript of the interview======

מה רוצים מכם מי שמכונים יהחרדים העובדים?'
"כל הסיפור הזה של חרדים עובדים הוא פיקציה. שקר. תעלול שהתפתח מעבר לכל פרופורציה בגלל אינטרסים צרים ומקומיים. אין דבר כזה חרדי עובד יש חרדי. נקודה. מי שמחנך את הילדים שלו לציית לגדולי ישראל הוא חרדי. מה זה משנה אם הוא עובד או לא? הרי ידגל התורהי הוקמה על ידי אנשים עובדים. כל המוסדות החרדיים הוקמו על ידי חרדים עובדים, מה זו הבדיחה הזו? את מי אני מייצג אם לא את העובדים?"

אתה מתעלם מבעיות של קבלה למוסרות שיש בעיקר לאנשים שעובדים.
"אני בכלל לא מתעלם. יש בעיות קשות. חלק מהבעיות אי אפשר לפתור. צריך להקים מוסדות שיתאימו לכל הסוגים באוכלוסייה, וזה מה שאנחנו עושים. השבוע נחנך מוסד לימודים חדש באלעד שמיועד לציבור הזה וישבתי עם נציגי אותו ציבור על מוסד דומה בפתח תקווה, אני חושב שצריך לסייע להם באמת וזה בדיוק מה שאנחנו עושים.

"אני רוצה לחדד נקודה נוספת: בסופו של דבר, גם מי שיצא מהכולל בשל אילוצים כאלה ואחרים,יודע שעולם התורה זה חוד החנית של העם היהודי. הם האליטה שלנו. להם אנחנו צריכים לדאוג. אני בטוח שכל אחד מאתנו מוכן לוותר לא מעט בשביל שעולם התורה ימשיך לפרוח. בסוף-בסוף, אנחנו צריכים לדאוג לעולם התורה, לאברכים, לעמלי התורה".


  1. yes, but you are claiming that one version is more accurate than the other,
    unless you can provide a tape recording of his actual words, there is no way to verify the exact comments made

  2. Original interview is here

  3. I stopped reading YWN back in 2008. If you look through their archives, you'll see that he began very idealistically. In 2008 he hired a well-connected former army reporter, who literally hates Chariedim, to cover Israeli news. His hits went up tremendously, as did his advertising revenue.

    There should be an outcry for them remove the words "Yeshiva World" from their editorial and news site.

  4. YWN has a history of publishing inflammatory and untrue incitements against Chareidi figures. YWN falsely represent themselves as being Chareidi.

  5. Are you referring to Yechiel Spira of the Jerusalem Kosher News? He has a sorid history of lying to incite against Chareidim.

    YWN used to put his name of the hit articles he writes against Chareidim. For the past few years. though, YWN is not putting his byline on his stories.

  6. Are you referring to Yechiel Spira


  7. I have not investigated, but if this is true, it would be highly irresponsible reporting on their part. Also, according to their version, he would actually have to be excluding himself from the Charedi community, as he also had left kollel to enter politics.

  8. From a halachic perspective Yechiel Spira does not have a chemist kashrut and lives with a ayshet ish whom he claims he married.

    His girlfriend he claims is his wife is a bigamist and subject up to 4 years of incarceration per Israeli Law.

  9. DaasTorah posted a link to the actual recording.

  10. Who is this woman he claims to be married to and who is she really married to? Why was her previous Get invalid?

  11. thank you very much, this is precisely what was needed

  12. Ok, I'll change to purposeful deception and incitement. Thanks.

  13. It's highly irresponsible to call purposeful deception an error ("highly irresponsible"). You're very welcome.

  14. Chill out. I had not heard the interview.

  15. How can you not love a site (YWN) that has such an original and dramatic intro to their videos.
    Every time I hear it, Ikh lekk meine finger.

  16. Harry was never concerned with the truth.

    How did he report Shelly Silvers arrest? Now contrast it to how he condemned BMG based upon how FM misquoted the judges statement. However, like in this case, the documents were readily availability for Mr. Maryles to read. Truth is at most an inconvenience for Mr. Maryles.

  17. The Hebrew version was quite different than the English translation except that is entirely not the point!!!

    MK GAFNI has said explicitly that his party is to protect the World of Torah & it's learners which is honorable, essential & required except the Charedi world has increased, enlarged & expanded beyond the borders of avrechim & Beis medresh Talmidim.

    The CHAREDI umbrella includes women, professionals, rich , poor, those who live in Shomron & Yehudah, educated, AMERICAN, new immigrants, full time learners, soldiers, extremists, vocational trainers, unemployed, etc. The agenda of United Torah party needs to include various goals including Women'shealth clinics, increasing employment benefits & working conditions for the employed & non, housing & grants for start-ups, stipends for learners & vocational students, security concerns for communities like Beitar, Givat zev, Ramat Shlomo, etc, increased medical & dental services, etc etc, . Since UTJ goals & agenda ( U can see what they vote for & what they don't show up for ) are centered on avrechim they are causing their constituents of Bnei/Bnos Torah to look for other parties to care for their needs.

    CHAREDIM are not a HOMOGENOUS group who eat, daven, dress & think alike. The times have changed!!! DAAS Torah is sought from Rabbonim of the shul, yeshiva or kehilla..

  18. You correctly moderate did my previous posting I'm not actually permitted on your blog .

    Just want to say that I was not speaking and making story up of whole cloth but rather I'm speaking as the legal Beaufort according to civil law and Jewish law husband of Sharon Spira . The woman that is living with Yukio Spearow .

    Our separation and until now are non-divorce is a interesting story of the power of women and their ability to organize against their husband.

    Within about eight weeks of our separation approximately 50 Orthodox rabbis spoke to my rabbi and the synagogues President.A founder of the Jewish Orthodox feminist alliance attempted to harass me into giving a get . 17 days after my wife told me she wanted a divorce .

    Within about two months of being told that I was getting a divorce perhaps slightly less my wife sent a letter to all 500+ members of the Schull insinuating that I was not willing to give her a gift.

    She went to the conservative movement of Judaism and got the wedding annulled or more properly what they referred to as a hakpaat insulin She publicly celebrated her marriage to Spira about four months after we separated . He was most likely involved in her campaign against me .

    Not expecting you to post this , however I didn't want you to think that what I posted previously was hot air . Spira has some serious ethical issues in his life that he needs to confront and I'm sure it not only deals with the issues dealing with my divorce or lack off rather .

  19. Open Letter to Charedi Politicians in Israel:

    Since It's Now Election Season in Israel & Politicians Will Be Politicians:

    Please Grow Up Or Else You Will Lose !

    MK Gafni is a crafty and capable man. He's an Israeli politician who is supposedly trying to help his party, Degel HaTorah (that is allied with Aguda), under the umbrella name United Torah Judaism (UTJ) to presumably get more people to vote for them and hence they can increase their seats in the next Knesset and thereby gain more influence and power and hopefully a position within the next Israel government from which they have been kicked out ("locked out") for the last two years since Netanyahu (Likud) preferred to bring in Lapid (Yesh Atid) and Bennet (Bayit Yehudi) instead with terrifying consequences for the world of Torah in Israel.

    Now the only question and what should be MK Gafni's ONLY objective is that, is everything that he says going to help him get the votes he needs to strengthen his party? or is he going to make utterances and pronouncements that will only cause him more problems? that just besmirches his good name make him and makes his party less popular, and he will thus get less votes and less seats and less influence and less power in the next round of coalition negotiations to determine who will be in the next governing coalition in Israel so that he and his party will simply be left out in the cold to scream from the rooftops (as Gafni is doing now) that gets no one anywhere.

    So please Chaver HaKnesset Gafni, be SMART, think twice before you talk, and don't shoot off your mouth on issues that are obviously well over your head and pay scale. If the Gedolim want to say something they are quite capable, they control papers and have access in many ways to get their words across, while your job is not to attack people even by implication or to say things that will open you yup to attack, learn from the Kiruv experts they never attack others they try to build them up, knowing how to win friends and influence people as the way to succeed.

    Otherwise expect to be misunderstood, misquoted, and kicked around in the media, and hen locked out of the next governing coalition and remain in the opposition until you will learn how to really run a campaign for election and to win over people to your cause (hint, it is not by the toxic politics of destruction) only by talking like a Mentsch, or just not talking off the cuff, stick to talking points and try to SMILE more, so far you always look like you are coming off from a fight with your wife, only then will you win over the people you want to vote for you and your party!

    By the way, this nonsense of Gafni telling people who is or is not "Charedi" based on if they work or learn or if they listen to him or not, and spouting this childish politically correct silliness has to stop. People are not stupid, please stop infantalizing them and talking down to the world as if they are in your "cheder" and are afraid of the "big bad scary menahel" which they are not. Eli Yishai seems to know this much better and that is why it seems he is probably going to win in spite of what his fellow-Charedim Gafni and Deri are trying to do to him and others they don't like and just attack and imagine that they will garner votes and win over undecided or even committed voters that way. It is time for political maturity in Israel, and MK Gafni is smart enough to learn that lesson and show the way... or else remain in the opposition for a very long time until you learn your lessons!

  20. I have a few rants of my own, but i will give the benefit of the doubt on whether the reported sources are accurate or not, as there is a good deal of misleading information.

    1) It is alleged that Gedolim have told french jews not to make aliyah, as if to out-do the Satmar rebbe, they are claiming that 50% of these Olim would be intermarried. If such statements are made, they are highly mistaken. the intermarried jews are the last ones who would move to israel, since they do not go to shul or kosher stores and are not at risk in Europe or USA.

    2) it is alleged in this story that haredi women are less aware of testing for breast cancer, and have higher death rates from both this terrible disease, Rachmono l'eitzlan, and overall have the shortest lifespans in Israel. If these allegations are well founded (requiring verification), then it is a sad story. the Torah gives us an obligation to care for our health, even to be mechalel Shabbat in case of a safek sakanah to life.

    it is also ironic that Hagaon R' Hertz, ztl, the Chief rabbi of Great Britannia a century ago, writes in his commentary to the Chumash, that women who go to the mikve have lower rates of cervical cancers than those who do not. A professor of medicine said that the mikve in itself is not the cause of this low incidence, but the behaviour associated with it, ie having no contact with men before or outside of marriage, since that terrible disease is transmitted sexually.
    If good behaviour can be associated with keeping mitzvot, then so can bad behaviour. Bad behaviour includes not taking care of oneself and preventing / treating diseases. What i am saying is in no way an atatck on hareidim. On the contrary, i want to see that hareid men and women enjoy long lives, and not be relegated to shorter lifespans if they can influence this.

  21. Thank you for your reply. Please re-read your post. You do not bring even a shred of evidence to your assertions.

    1) Please cite a reliable and verifiable source for your assertion. Please include names.

    Your side-swipe slander of the Satmer rebbe is dully noted.

    2) The link you provide is a notably anti-Chareidi hit-piece. She parenthetically makes her false claim. Of course, she does not provide any proof to her lie that Chareidi women have shorter lifespans. As you say, you need a properly documented study to suggest such an absurdity. She does not even quote one doctor or research student. Her parenthesis is as reliable as a Failed Messia claim.

    Incidentally, I find the criticism of the Hamevaser newspaper to be absolutely ludacrest. Think about it. The purpose of the march in France was to say that we respect a private newspaper to do as they wish. We need not agree, nor purchase their publication, but they have the right to be as ridicules as they would like to be. Comes along a small paper in Israel who does what they feel like doing in their report of the free press march. All of a sudden we forget their right to be as "offensive" as they would like to be and we criticize them all over the world for what they wrote in their paper. How insanely ironic!

    Whats next, condemning Charlie Hebdo?

    Again, please cite reliable sources, Eddie! Also, please allow logic overcome your disgusting hate.

  22. There is an interesting comment on Harry’s post on this issue:

    E the P stated (in part) “Gafni said two things. (1) The definition of a Chareidi is someone who obeys the Gedolim. Period. It has nothing to do with working or learning (2) However, the Gedolim have determined that the only valuable concern politically is the future of the real, full time, Lomdei Torah.

    Therefore, if you are a Chareidi that works, you still should vote for this party, NOT because they will fight for your needs personally (they will not) but because you should be willing to sacrifice your personal needs for the needs of real Lomdei Torah, as per the opinion of the Gedolim.”

  23. Truth is not an "inconvenience" for Harry - it's not even on his radar. He's too dimwitted to notice it and his readership is too focused on swallowing the hate he feeds them to care.
    The only way Harry can get away with claiming that he's not anti-haredi is because he doesn't reserve his hatred and slander only for haredim but spreads it liberally around other parts of the Jewish nation. In reality, he's a sad little nobody that no one in or out of Chicago paid attention to until the internet was invented and he took to blogging. In the fine city of Chicago he's still a nobody. It's only to his online audience that he holds any fascination and that's because they're thrilled to find someone to validate their own distaste for haredim.

  24. A well known dr/ surgeon at Sloan Ketering has stated & wrote in medical journals regarding certain cancers that are rampart in the Jewish community, so that may stand as some proof.

    A women's clinic in Geulah was not able to administer pap smears, breast exams or sonograms so they relocated. The head nurse at medical clinic in Betar is NOT allowed to give out booklets, diagrams, medical info about Pap smears or any breast exam precautions so EDDIE does not sound so ridiculous or ludicrous.

  25. Names,names,names. Please provide them.
    Sources, sources, sources. Please provide them.

  26. HM corrected his post when he verified the mistranslation.

    You can't hold that against him.

    He's not from NY; doesn't know that the assembly speaker was known to be corrupt for years; its only the details that came out now.

    The breast cancer issue is more complicated than a superficial post. He covered it pretty well.

    Anotexia, he pointed out today, affects all segments of jewish society; non jewish, too. You can't argue with that, or the effect it has on all segments of the orthodox community.

  27. Ten Questions about the term "Charedi"

    1. Who invented this term "Charedi" and why did he/they do it?

    2. How long has it been in common use?

    3. Who decides who is Charedi or not?

    4. Is there any Sefer or Torah or Halachic source that defines the label "Charedi" that EVERYONE can see and agree on?

    5. Is it any better than the term "Ultra-Orthodox" that it supposedly replaces?

    6. What makes any Jew "Charedi" or not?

    7. Is there only one type of "Charedi" or are there multiple types?

    8. Does anyone or any group have the monopoly or exclusive rights to use this term?

    9. Confusingly, because the term "Charedi" is freely used by both secular people as a pejorative and religious Jews as a proud label, who is right and how do the usages of the term differ and how is it the same?

    8. Is this term really needed now or should it be dumped on the trash-heap of Jewish history because it is useless, like the Fascist term "aryan" or the Communist term "comrade", and causes more divisiveness than true Jewish unity?

  28. None exist. He invented his false medical claims out of the whole of cloth.

  29. I generally do not use the adjective "chareidi" because it is misleading. It originated in Eretz Yisroel as a way to describe those who followed the Eidah HaChareidis as opposed to the Rabanut. But it has evolved, and has come to mean basically anyone who is not Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist. But then it is simply the generic, default, traditional manner of being frum. And by using a brand name for the generic you are giving the impression that it is not the generic.

    Chareidim do not follow any specific teachings of any specific Rebbi, nor do they believe in any specific values not already in the Torah. Chasidim follow the specific teachings of the Baal Shem Tov and his disciples; Telzers follow the teachings and Minhagim of the Telzer Yeshiva; the Mussar movement was started by Rav Yisroel Salanter - but "Chareidi"? There was no beginning to "Chareidism" except on Har Sinai; no particular person whose teachings they follow except Moshe Rabbeinu, and no particular Minhagim they perform.

    So there really is no such thing as a "Chareidi." Those who people refer to as "Chareidim" have mostly never referred to themselves as such - in America you can go to Yeshiva from Kindergarten through Kollel and you will most probably never hear "we are Chareidi," and you may even never hear the term used at all.

    And because words matter - it's a strange thing but people often tend to form impressions of reality based on words and phrases rather than creating words and phrases that reflect reality - I do not use the term "Chareidi" because by giving generic, default Judaism a label it conceals the fact that this Judaism is in fact the generic and default.

  30. If u contact me privately will give u the name of the head nurse at Betar.

  31. Easy to check on the Women's clinic of Geulah & services available and Katamon women's clinic normal, regular & yearly procedures recommended to safeguard breast & cervical Cancers.

  32. Plus read the main reason Charedi women used for starting a political party - MK LITZMAN ex health minister "does not service Charedi women"...

  33. I used to ignore it too, b/c it originated as a pejorative intended to brand ordinary frum Jews as fanatics. But unfortuantely, it has become the common coin ...

  34. Huh?

    Again. Please cite names and sources. You, Eddie and Harry were not stingy on words when it can to make these incredulous and slanderous claims. Now, when it comes to citing reliable names and sources, you seek to send me on a wild goose hunting exhibition. Please be a bit more generous on your sources and more stingy on slander and hate.

  35. I said alleged, and did not present these claims as fact.
    I also said that i wish them long and healthy lives, is that part of my alleged hate?

  36. You are reading & reacting in what ever way you decide. There is zero slander or hate posted.

    Facts are facts, check out well known ob/gyn in Bet Shemesh named Dr. L. Bublitzky, who does not display any of the normal female procedures since it is offensive to many female patients. Quite frankly, there is no goose chase at all, MK LITZMAN medical innovations or lack of are known & so is the Geula clinic. Call them & make inquiries in stead of absolving yourself with sources, sources, facts, facts. Ask any resident of Betar - where she can get a Pap smear or mammogram. This is not slander, there are many women who are not interested in these procedures in NY, NJ or Israel.

    Yet any oncologist (or do u want names??? Read the bulletins in lobby at Sloan) ... Cancer can be prevented with precautionary acts of colonoscopy, mammograms, blood tests, prostate testing, sonograms, Pap smears, etc. Hope this is not hate-filled or slander against Sloan or oncologists....

  37. Lets stick to the topic at hand.

    Please provide a reliable, verifiable source or study that claims that Chareidi women "have higher death rates from both this terrible disease" and have the "shortest lifespan in Israel". Please be honest, you have no reliable source. Neither does Eddie, as he admitted that its only "alleged".

    Again, please stay on topic and provide a source. Either put up some evidence, or shut out your hate.

    If you don't like a particular doctors procedures then, by all means, don't use them. However, don't make ridiculous and fictitious claims about a supposed higher rate of disease. Don't take a steep leap of faith in order to slander people and rant off hate-filled rhetoric.

  38. So using the word "alleged" give you license to spew out any hateful slander?

  39. Who is this "well known dr/ surgeon at Sloan Ketering" who made this claim? Is his/her name a secret? Why?

    Or do you perhaps not know the name? Are you simply repeating some gossip without being sure of the facts?

  40. I said alleged, and did not present these claims as fact.

    So why did you bother, if not to slander Chareidim? Please be a man and delete your slander.

  41. If u contact me privately will give u the name of the head nurse at Betar.

    What is this, some sort of joke? You lied, and are not man enough to stand up to it.

    Again, please cite a reliable and verifiable source confirming your false claims about disease and lifespan. You made the claim publicly, now either show your proof or back down. Offering me the names of a "head nurse" in Beitar, or a head apple eater in India, has absolutely no relevance. We need reliable and verifiable proof to a 30% higher rate and shorter lifespan. These are disgusting lies.

  42. After reading all comments, I've concluded that HONESTY is a bully or blockhead.
    AAA magazine states, "INJURIES & FATALITIES increase in severity when driver or passenger is not wearing a seat belt". I have been told by HONESTY that statement is hate, slander and sources,facts, statistics, graphs are needed to access accuracy. Where did the accidnent occur? What is the name of the driver? make of the car? What was the speed or weather conditions? Who decided what are injuries and how severe they are????

    Similiar statistics are reported in medical reports and journals that 'the lack of preventive detection exams for Cancer will reduce a person's life span". IS THAT SPANISH??? Pretty straight-forward to that not straight-forward to you. Not sure what is bothering you here. If there are a group of people that do not particpate in certain preventive care - then......

  43. @Yoni - you are not answering the question. You are assuming that only a single variable - medical tests - determines death rate. But that is simply not so.

    If someone claims that frum Jews have a lower life expectancy etc - then we don't need for pilpul to justify the statement. Either there are statistics that show this or there are not.

  44. I've concluded that HONESTY is a bully or blockhead.

    Now, there. You begin your disagreement with a persons line-of-reasoning by baselessly attacking his character. Neat. Why did you feel the need for this? Are you trying to bully me to shut up?

    As to the topic at hand, Rabbi Eidensohn answered you well. Either you have statistics or you don't. And quite clearly, you don't. Lets not forget the specific number of 30% that was thrown out. Are you comparing to this to a real, verifiable study that AAA performed?

    And yes, your personal attack on me, as well as Chareidim, does seem to stem from hate.


please use either your real name or a pseudonym.