So after he got a hazmanah from a valid Beit Din, that he ran to a Beit Din so notoriously corrupt that the Chief Rabbinate has stated that it will cease to recognize any Dayyan that sits with them. That this notoriously corrupt and unrecognized Beit Din supposedly mavateled a seruv from a recognized Chareidi Beit Din and gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court against the wife he abandoned.
In short this Psak isn't worth the paper it's written on.
"So after he got a hazmanah from a valid Beit Din, that he ran to a Beit Din so notoriously corrupt that the Chief Rabbinate has stated that it will cease to recognize any Dayyan that sits with them. That this notoriously corrupt and unrecognized Beit Din supposedly mavateled a seruv from a recognized Chareidi Beit Din and gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court against the wife he abandoned.
In short this Psak isn't worth the paper it's written on."
Once again a totally unsubstantiated and baseless attack. We will see who is right in the end.
The same Rabbannut that no one even relies on their hechsherirm during non-shemitah years has spoken and the Brisker Rov assured from entering.
Unless Michael Tzadok you can point to a case showing where Rav Gestetner and RavAabraham broke the halochoh and an Odom Godol came out against them with mareh mekomos and they were unable to show their own mareh mekomos, This attack by Michael tzaddok should not have been passed by the censor board of this web site.
It should be emphasized again and again that these two Av botei Din are the only two who refuse to take money for sitting on botei din. pretty hard to call them corrupt and bribable Michael tzadok.
So your best response is that I'm a rasha and Rav Amar is an Am HaAretz(l'havdil). But you cannot substantially answer why no one accepts this Beit Din, no why the esteemed Rabbanim who signed the Seruv, inluding Rav Wachtfogel, and Rav Kotler, continue to uphold it in the face of this farce.
Surely you are not going to tell me that they two have been bitten by the bug of liberalism and feminism.
It's not a baseless attack. Just a few weeks ago this Beis din attacked Reb Sholomo Miller because he told someone who remarried without giving a get that he has divorce his wife because he was עובר חרם דרבינו . This was his fifth or sixth marriage . He owed money to his previous wife and left. And this Beis din had the chutzpah to give him a heter meah. The latest now is to mevatel another Beis dins seiruv. I wouldn't put any trust in any psak from such a Beis din.
ive seen the original documents and it states clearly that weiss opened proceedings and sued for custody and alimony! weiss sees the kid twice a week plus he gets him every other weekend HE WANTS SPLIT CUSTODY!!
Reply to Tzadok - "gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court"
Tzadok, who claims to be a "rabbi", apparently never even read the Bitul Seruv letter from Bais Din Shar HaMishpot.
Nowhere does the Bitul Seruv letter say a word about the husband receiving any heter to go to (non-Jewish) court. On the contrary, the letter clearly states that the wife is the tovaas (Plaintiff) in non-Jewish court, and that she falsely accused the husband of being the Plaintiff, and obtained a pasul seruv against him using her false accusation.
Tzadok, the ORA propagandist, has demonstrated once again his lack of intellectual honesty and his utter contempt for Ashkenazi Chareidi rabbanim, while employing his standard techniques of spewing bare faced lies and obfuscations on a non-suspecting Jewish public.
I once had reason to call up Gestetner's BD in Rockland County. I can vouch for the fact that, whoever it was I spoke to, was the rudest and most sarcastic person I have ever spoken to.
Dovy i once had reason to go to Belsky and he was very rude, kept us waiting for no reason and also very sarcastic. then he made us walk and he took elavator. he then tried to get me to come back but I refused to go.
Stan and Emes, It really helps nobody that you both keep attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue.
In particular, in this instance, R' Tzadok has produced a document which certainly casts aspersions on this Beis Din. Now, you may well bring the Brisker Rav to the table, but frankly, you do NOT know what the Brisker Rav would have said in this INSTANCE if he had the information which R' Amar used to conclude and express his view. It is simply POINTLESS bringing up past Gedolim in the context of such arguments. The Brisker Rav was an Ish HoEmes. He may well have taken a view that would surprise you. He often did.
In regards this case, it surely is a question of facts. R' Gestetner's Beis Din has concluded that the wife went to court first. Is that indeed the case? If it is not, then that Beis Din's comments can be given no weight.
Mivakesh HaEmes claims to have seen the documents. Can he post them? Are they in the public domain? It seems to me that the truth here is somewhat easy to ascertain. It is really not necessary to descend into the depths of Sinah that some of the commenters here seem so quick to do.
It is more than that Rav Amar simply concluded that the Beit Din was problematic. It was that he concluded that it was SO PROBLEMATIC that it would result in the possul dayyanut to any dayyan that would join with it. That is quite serious to say the least.
Beis din machon l"hora and ora both hav the docs- everyone agrees that machon lhora contacted weiss for months and months b4 the siruv GESTETNER NEVER CONTACTED THE WIFE! Machon lhora does not issue siruvim lightly they are the toughest and most honest bd in the america
"It really helps nobody that you both keep attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue.
In particular, in this instance, R' Tzadok has produced a document which certainly casts aspersions on this Beis Din."
Your statement is entirely self contradictory. What is the statement of the purported rabbanut? It is a statement "attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue."
1.Was a hearing held to determine that these Dayonim had broken halochoh? No 2.Were these dayonim given a chance to defend themselves? No. 3. What were the allegations against them? Unknown and non existent.
This letter is a joke. There is no basis to this letter. It is because Rav Gestetner and Rav Abraham have themselves attacked the corruption of the rabannut that it was issued e.g. what the rabbanut did to yosef dov meyerson, a classic example of the rabbanut not following halochoh.
I reiterate my challenge: Show me a single example of a real case of misconduct al pi halochoh where rav gestetner/ abraham ruled incorrectly against halochoh and were unable to bring acceptable sources showing that their position was legitimate instead of falling behind a corrupt letter from an utterly discredited and illegitimate organization which is just a personal attack.
Pitputim, before you post, please think if your statement makes any sense.
Lastly where is the condemnation from the Rabbanut of the violation of the halochoh by the following Botei Din: 1) Livingstone Street - the Supreme Court had to overturn a ruling because of bias 2)The BDA for using secular law instead of halochoh and for supporting women in arko'oys 3) Acharon acharon choviv- Belsky who was universally condemned for being mafkiah kiddushin le'mafraih and allegedly for the Rabbi Avromi Rubin "event"?
The rabbanut's paymasters are prikei ol. What a joke. I am glad that the same paymasters are now paying reform clergy officially because they have been doing so unofficially for a very long time.
The mother witheld the child from the father. The father got a Heter Arkoos from Rabbi Wohlhendler zt"l He went to court for emergency releif to see his child "beis Din" Mechon lhora (corrupt) sent him a hazmana for going to arkoos. Weiss responded htat he had a heter. this was ignored. Before they issued the third hazmana, the wife wemt to court and filed for divirce. This made weiss the defendant - unable to withdraw.This information was given to mechon - they ignored it. Weiss offered to go to zabla with R' Wohlhendler as his Borer. Mechon ignored this as well. Mechon then issued their bogus siruv. Why??? I am still researching the answer to this question. Stay tuned.
the problem with this whole situation and i am speaking as one intimately involved is that both sides are wrong and not willing to be flexible there have been meeting behind closed doors where the wife was offered compromises by third parties and she refused this is not to say that the husband is in the right he is also wrong but im just saying that its easier to make the man look the devil by virtue of the fact that he can give the get you need to realize that she holds a tremendous power in the child his only power is to refuse a get until an acceptable agreement is worked out also since she has kotler on her side it is almost impossible for him to get an unbiased hearing in machon lehorah also one must realize that at no point did any bais din require him to give a get they only want him to do the custody with them hence their refusal to do habala
The tzadok on the requirements for a valid Bais Din
According the Tzadok, it is necessary for the Bais Din to be recognized by breakers of the halochoh, namely the Rabbanut. The Brisker Rov assured one from even entering Haichal Shlomo. This notorious rabbanut that no yirei shomayim would rely on for kashrus suddenly becomes the final arbiter in hilchos gittin when it is a get meuseh factory producing fake gittin all the time.
No requirement from this Tzadok for halochoh to be followed. Only to be recognized by the kalif/sultan Amar. That's all. Tzadok you can fool some of the people all the time and all the people (bar me) some of the time but not all the people all the time. Produce a case where Rav Gestetner violated halochoh, names, dates etc and who went against him. Otherwise shut your ignorant mouth on matters you should not be poking your nose into. Stick to quoting from Fez, Casablanca, Rabat etc.
Feinstein divorce: Tzedoki- Kol haposel be'mumo posel
Michael tzadok is such an ignoramous that he does not even know who elya ber is. He is further guilty of being mevazeh Rav Gestetner berabim for which he loses his chelek l'oylom habo by calling him corrupt, when the opposite may be true. Has he ever brought any proof that Rav Gestetner is corrupt. No, simply a stupid letter from the Sefardi political king called Amar. Are there any examples of a violation of halochoh? No. We all know how corrupt the Sefardi elite rabbis are amassing hundreds of millions of shekels from their poor ignorant and very very primitive followers. And Tzadok claims to be a member of the notorious Abuchateria family who have distorted the legacy of the baba sali to enrich themselves. This is where Tzedokki purports to come from. Take no notice of his comments. They have no basis in fact.
Reply to Emes - "He went to court for emergency releif to see his child"
A source familiar with the Weiss case provided me information which confirms that your description of the case is accurate.
Know that this situation is not uncommon - a heartbroken father, unable to see his beloved child, obtains a valid heter to file a limited action in Court (archaos) only for purposes of obtaining some visitation time with his child, which has been denied him by his vindictive wife. The wife then responds by filing a full blown divorce law suit in Court. A "Bais Din" then ignores the wife's halachic violations in archaos and instead places a pasul seruv on the father. This situation repeats itself over and over.
The ORA feminist storm troopers then roar into action, waging a vicious harassment and defamation war against a Jewish father who only desired to see his child and who had attempted to settle the case al pi halacha.
Thank you Emes, New info that clears some things up. Kotler/Dodelson case was brought to Mechon by none other than the notorious Shmiel Fried. He brings cases to mechon, they carry his water. he says give siruv, they give. Who got Kotler his heter meah (which everyone likes to ignore, oh how p.c.) shmiel fried and dodelsons grandfather Volpo from Bnei Brak! Gee whiz everybody!! follow the crumbs!!! BTW, people are saying that Rabbo Wohlhandler, Weiss's first choice as a borer to go to zabla, was in a coma at the time. That is a blatant lie. i spoke to his son, he told me that his father caRED alot about hte caSE and he was fully ready and even eager to take on the case. If there were more people like him around we wouldnt be in the mess we are in.
A message to Tzadok and the ORA trolls on this blog -
Your ruthless and cruel disregard for the pain of Jewish fathers denied access to their children by their vindictive wives is abominable and disgustingly un-Jewish.
If you persist in aiding and abetting Jewish wives who deny their husbands access to their children, then midah k'neged midah, perhaps Hashem will remove your children from you so you can experience the pain and humiliation suffered by the Jewish fathers denied access to their children by vindictive wives.
No Michael he is saying that you actions are cruel and ruthless. You claim that you are a cousin of the Holy baba sali Zt'l. The baba sali would have never ever associated with ORA. The Baba Sali wouldn't even let someone without a beard into his minyan let alone work together with someone who has gone a national news network and say that he wants to change halacha or run fundraisers in a treif bar and get Jewish singles drunk or have men and half naked women sing together at protests. On this blog there have been plenty of articles showing how Jeremy stern has lied and spread misinformation in other situations. The man advocates using children as tool that is child abuse. How in your right mind can you support someone who advocates child abuse? Even if the husband is 100% wrong that still doesn't give you a right to abuse children.
Unfortunately today you have to do your own research in matters by literally calling each person on both sides and asking how much they themselves really know about the case not just what some askan told them.. Looking at a paper distributed by Ora that was typed up on a word processor with a couple of stamps mean nothing. Where were the supposed signators who signed that paper? none of them were at the protest? I highly doubt they support Ora or that they are fully aware of how they operate or what kefirah they spew forth. It is so easy for you from the comfort of your computer to condemn fathers that you never met or have bothered to speak to every party involved.
Who is saying anything about supporting ORA? I have repeatedly said I DO NOT support ORA.
Not everything is about ORA. There is a valid Chareidi Beit Din, and valid and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim who say that the husband is clearly in the wrong. That he ran out out on his wife and then went to court against her, against halakha.
ORA has nothing to do with any of that. Now this husband runs to an illegitimate Beit Din, to try and get his way.
That the wife went to ORA, while I don't agree with ORA, I can understand why. Her husband is going to get a fake heter from this B"D to take her to court. He is going to get a supposed heter Meah Rabbanim to remarry without giving her a Get. And this woman, that he abandonned is going to be left with nothing. Under those circumstances why wouldn't she go to ORA?
You obviously know very little about the case and of R' Feinstein. In general R' feinstein is very low key he is a tremendous anav and one that is very careful in his words. Just because he hasn't spoken publicly about it doesn't mean he has not said anything on the matter in private.
If the rabbanim signed a letter against weiss why weren't any of them at the protest? Instead just a handful of dodelsons family and friends came out. WHere was the entire LAkewood and Philidelphia yeshivas?
While you may hate stan and as you have admitted that you did not see the documnets from the court. Why don't you do your own homework before jumping in bed with Ora. Ora has already proven that they are apikorsim and have lied in previous cases. Any woman who uses their services risk the chances of getting a pasul get. In addition one has no choice but to question and suspect that the complete opposite of what the woman is claims The fact is Ora are paid hit men from wives looking to get revenge on their ex spouses. They threaten rabbanim with terror if they dont go along with their agenda as they have in NJ and silver spring.
Point in case the friedman case, Ora goes around protesting by his uncle and the mother claiming they are his key supporters. Fact is they live over four and a half hours away and aharon only sees them a couple of times a year. Yet they continue to protest and harrass his family. The way Ora portrays it is that aharon is their all of the time. What is the point of the protests if he is hardly ever there? Besides he is an adult old enough to make his own decisions. The reality is this is just revenge from his ex and there is no heter for it since they obviously have no influence on him. Yet in other posts you seem to be fine with it. Anyone who is mevayish someone has no chelek in olam habba.
You were quick to to condemn friedman but you didnt even bother to look into all the details. Instead Just read some stupid letter from R' hershel shachter claiming that whatever R' kaminetsky says is Nevuah without even looking into the facts. Or that bogus seruv that was issued after one hazmanah froma rabbi who has a reputation of accepting of being michshal the rabbim. Even he said that is is assur to protest. Unlike you I actually bothered to see all of the documents and speak to people involved. There is a lot more to this case that what Ora says.
Dont be so naive people mislead rabbanim and get them to sign things that they dont even know what they are signing or lie about the facts. get all of the facts before speaking out in public and do your own homework.
Furthermore the fact that Ms Dodelson was the Plaintiff explains why Weiss was permitted al pi halochoh to claim alimony which he normally would have not been allowed to claim if he was the toveah because a usual hetter bais din only allows you to claim what the torah would grant you and alimony is not permitted in genreal. if the other side goes to arko'oys you can even claim more than what the torah grants you according to many poskim. so everything now ties in beautifully.
Only problem the corrupt YU guys will attempt to twist things wityh their apologist Michael Tszaddok yet again
I have heard that the baal is not asking for alimony at all. he is asking for legal fees but why shouldnt he? As for asking for money in his original application to the court, this was an emergency filing. that language was part of a boilerplate application, it was never pursued in court,and the weiss's did not pursue it. THe Dodelsuns on the other hand dod press for hefty child support payments form the fahter who is learning. i dont know wht he is paying, but i heard it is a ridiculous amount.
Sam "SamJune 24, 2012 3:56 PM It's not a baseless attack. Just a few weeks ago this Beis din attacked Reb Sholomo Miller because he told someone who remarried without giving a get that he has divorce his wife because he was עובר חרם דרבינו . This was his fifth or sixth marriage . He owed money to his previous wife and left. And this Beis din had the chutzpah to give him a heter meah. The latest now is to mevatel another Beis dins seiruv. I wouldn't put any trust in any psak from such a Beis Din"
1)Your statement is a contradiction. How can he be oyver cheirem d'rabeinu gershom if the bais din gave him a heter meah?
2)If the woman was a moredes, you do not need a hetter meah according to the Divrei Chaim and the Achiezer who are much bigger than Shlomo Miller so R Gestetner is being machmir.
3)Rav Gestetner tried several times to personally contact Reb Shlomo Miller but he wasn't available.
4) If he owed her money, why does she not get a hetter from Miller to go to arko'oys? this has nothing to do with the hetter.
Rav Gestetner spends hours checking documents. The same cannot be said for other people like Miller who have big empires to run. Rav G is called corrupt all the time but the facts always come out on his side - see this Feinstein case where people were naive enough to think the Feinsteins will ruin their name by going to arko'oys 1st without a hetter. The truth was on the other side.
You can call rav Gestetner and Rav Abraham corrupt as much as you like. You will have to answer in shomayim because the facts are always in his favor.
I reiterateL these are the only 2 botei din which are for free so what incentive do they have to sell themselves to the non-existent highest bidder? I am waiting for a motive still.
Previously it was claimed by Michael Tzadok that there was no requirement if a Plaintiff went to arko'oys shelo kdin without a hetter that there is no requirement for this plaintiff to have pay the nitvah's legal fees. Clearly Tzadok is ignorant in this matter as rav Gestetner has brought 7 sources: 1) Shut Aidus Be'yosef 2) Shut Nos deshe 3) Maharik 4) Bais Yitzchok 5) Divrei Chaim 6) Netzach yisroel 7) Mishne halochos - Hagoan Hagodol Moron shel kol bnei hagola Rav Menashe Klein.
I believe it would be only appropriate that Tzadok has the decency to apologize to the readers of this blog for misinforming and misleading them.
Anonymoust person who like to write racist things. I am begging Rav Eidensohn to put all of your comments through so that world may see just how deranged you are.
In the meantime why don't you stop lying about what I said. You are severely misrepresenting my position, either maliciously or because you lack basic reading comprehension.
Oh and those seven sources don't outweigh the Shulhan Arukh, Rema, Sma, Shakh, Gra, and other Notei Kelim that I quoted. Have a nice day.
Here's a simple question for the Rav Gestetner supporters.
Why do Rav Kotler, Rav Wachtfogel, Rav Greenblatt, and Rav Kamenetsky not accept his intervention if he is such a reliable Chareidi Beit din? They are all well respected Chareidi Rabbanim.
I don't see the Chief Rabbinate or the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Monsey writing that any of them are not to be relied upon. Or Rav Yitzchak Meyer Morgenshtern condemning any of their decisions the way he did that of Rav Gestetner's handling of the Mendel Blum(because of the language that Rav Morgenshtern uses I'm not going to post the link here, it can be found by googling Morgenshtern and Gestetner in Hebrew).
That's an aweful lot of well respected Chareidi Rabbanim coming out against a Beit Din that is supposed to be an upstanding Chareidi Beit Din.
Previously it was claimed without any basis other than an ad hominem attack by the corrupt rabbanut that Rav Gestetner was corrupt by Michael Tzadok and "Sam" and possibly some others.
Clearly the fact that Avrohom meir Weiss was forced to go to arko'oys only about visitation because his wife refused to grant him visitation and would not adhere to halochoh by preventing the child from seeing its father and from her failure to listen to avrohom meir's bais din and he did so with a hetter from Rabbi Wohlhandler should require an apology from Tzadok, Sam et al for attacking the Weiss and Feinstein family falsely and they should also apologize if they have any decency for calling Rav Gestetner corrupt when the facts prove that it is machon le'horoo that issued a false siruv and the wife dodelson in fact went to arko'oys shelo k'din since avrohom mair was tzias dina gomur by offering 2 borrerim.
Do Tzadok and Sam have any decency to do the right thing and make the appropriate apologies? I doubt it but I hope and look forward to being proved wrong.
Rav Kotler, Rav Greenblatt, Rav Wachtfogel and Rav Kamenetsky(all major and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim have said that Weis is in the wrong).
Furthermore the Beit Din of Gestetner/Abraham/Wohlhander has been publicly denounced by Rav Shlomo Amar, Rav Gree(Rosh Yeshiva of Monsey Yeshiva) and Rav Yitzchak Meyer Morgenshtern(Rosh Yeshiva of Toras Chakham) again all well respected Chareidi Rabbanim.
You have no answer for why all of these Chareidi Rabbanim come out so strongly against this trio.
So please when Chareidi Rabbanim, well respected Chareidi Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivot say that the Beit Din cannot be relied upon(again their language is much stronger than that) why should we?
This is from the identity theft blog that Stan has set up in my name. Just to give everyone an idea of the kind of person that we are dealing with here. These are his words: Michael tzadok is such an ignoramous that he does not even know who elya ber is. He is further guilty of being mevazeh Rav Gestetner berabim for which he loses his chelek l'oylom habo by calling him corrupt, when the opposite may be true. Has he ever brought any proof that Rav Gestetner is corrupt. No, simply a stupid letter from the Sefardi political king called Amar. Are there any examples of a violation of halochoh? No. We all know how corrupt the Sefardi elite rabbis are amassing hundreds of millions of shekels from their poor ignorant and very very primitive followers. And Tzadok claims to be a member of the notorious Abuchateria family who have distorted the legacy of the baba sali to enrich themselves. This is where Tzedokki purports to come from. Take no notice of his comments. They have no basis in fact.
Just so that everyone knows the kind of sick individual we are dealing with.
For the record, you have just posted extremely personal attacks from Tzaddok. It has already been explained that Kotler is against the Feinsteins and these people Dodelsons are very rich and we already have seen that kamenetsky's yeshiva was on the take in the Friedman case.
These very emotional postings from Tzadok confirm he is not interested in the facts but in maligning his opponents. He previously claimed there was no basis for legal fees al pi halocho but has been disproven yet again.
I personally had a mayseh with Machon leHoroya - my ex-wife sued me in arko'os, after I was naive enough to give her a get before negotiating a settlement. I had Machon send her three hazmonos. I never once received a hazmono from her to go to any bd. After charging me money to send the hazmonos, Machon sent her a hasroas siruv. She went to a left-wing feminist bd that NO chareidi would ever take seriously, and that "b'd" sent a letter to machon telling them that they had investigated and that my ex-wife had a valid heter arko'os, and that Machon should therefore not issue a siruv. To my surprise, Machon listened to them! Machon never decided on its own whether the heter was valid, but blindly took the word of this joke of a modern orthodox bd. And how could it be a valid heter when I never ever received a hazmono to go to bd!
I later learned through inside sources that Machon does some kashrus work with the organization that is affiliated with the modern orthodox lefty bd, and that they didn't want to make waves because it could cost them kashrus money.
Machon is a big joke. Too bad Shmiel Fried wasn't my to'en, because evidently they do whatever he tells them to do.
You dont always need to send hazmanas to get a heter arkaot. I dont know your case but the fact that you did not receive a hazmana is not sufficient to condemn the BD for giving a heter arkaot.
Once again Tzadok obfuscates by refusing to answer why this fake seruv is anything but that. He claims: 1) why did kotler sign on it? simple he is against the feinstein's - he still has a wife by this name in israel. 2) ask the above as well as elya ber and shmuel kamenetsky why they have no problems with an employee of the Agudah being machzik in arko'oys and they are well aware of this. 3) moshe green is not a dayan but since ytou want an explanation, here it is, you can read it yourself: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19478984/Rabbi-Green-Getting-Paid-Off
4) As far as Bluhm is concerned, perhaps you would like to explain to DT and the rest of the readership how a Get forced through kidnapping is a valid get.
So your response is that we are supposed to believe that Rav Gestetner is a tzadik(l'havdil) while Rav Kotler, Rav Wachtfogel, Rav Green and Rav Kamenetsky are taking bribes(Chas V'Shalom).
You still haven't explained Rav Greenblatt or Rav Morgenshtern.
Oh and as far as Rav Amar, I will let your blatantly racist remarks stand for themselves.
You'll be mevazeh the entire Chareidi world, and you demand an apology. Absurd.
Regarding the facts in any of these cases you have yet to provide a single scrap of proof outside of documents written by a Beit Din that no one accepts.
No Stan, when a Beis din issues a heter meyah for someone who remarried without a get, without paying his wife his debts, not to mention it is his fifth or sixth marriage, and Reb Shlomo puts a stop to this craziness that one cant go against Rabbeni Gershom and this person is in cherem, and this Beis din has the chutzpah to write against Reb Shlomo for following and upholding Halacha , then yes, I have a problem with them . Now add all the other Rabonim who are against this Beis din, and no you will not get any apology from me. Now you still have to show me how he got a heter to go to secular court and not deal with a proper accepted Beis din. Ok Stan the ball is in your court.
You are welcome to call rav gestetner. i am not his spokesman on each and every case. i know the blum case because it is famous but i am sure if you bring documents to rav gestetner that he was not aware of he will change his position if that makes sense. did this woman go to arko'oys?
reb shlomo miller is pretty controversial himself and many, many people are against him in lakewood. if you don't get a satisfactory answer from rav gestetner, i will be willing to supply you with an email and will present your side to him. I know that in a previous high profile divorce that r miller and r elya ber were fighting like mad against each other.
i presume you are the brother in law of this ex-wife. i told you already money has nothing to do with gerushin you are mixing 2 separate things. from the way it sounds you are definitely nogeah be'dovor here. it doesn't mean 100% that you are wrong but until there is a need for me to spend my time on this, i won't.
for the record rav gestetner does not issue heter meah rabonim - only rav abraham does. but rav gestetner defended the legitamicy of this one. i certainly will not ask rav gestetner about this until you put in writing that his wife did not go to arko'oys on this blog.
This is just another example of the shtusim that get blogged on the net.
Many sites bashmootzed the Weisses and the Fiensteins based on "IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE". And that Reb Reuvain is a shaigetz and kol dovor osur (Chas V'sholom).
Then we get the REAL story how the other side MISLEAD the bais din (by the bais din's own admission). Not only did they mislead that bais din, they mislead many Rosh Hayeshivos and Rabbonim. A while later the truth emerges. Most of sites deny that the truth is true by rationalizing some fanatic scenario of how that "truth" can't be true. And at the end the original "nirdaf" still ends up being the bad guy. This occurs on a daily basis. What is mind- boggling is that even so called honest sites fall right into this trap.
So why sites don't mind their own business, and why people support "those" support organizations and blogs, which are based on deception, defies logic. What is most surprising is that even sites such as Daas Torah sometimes unknowingly are snared into this "dead end", and the lame excuses they offer in defense are not acceptable halachacly defintly not 'b'din shamyim.
learn from your mistakes. I have been vugorously defending the feinsteins but Sam and especially Michael tzadok who is repeatedly been shown to be incorrect refuse to apologize, self-righteously trying to claim that in other instances rav gestetner is wrong.
that is their opinions which is in all likelihood to also be wrong but in this case they have proven to be wrong but cannot bring themselves to apologize.
tzaddok continues to do this for months already and his only answer is that i am racist.
When you provide documentary proof(i.e. court documents) that show that these Chareidi Rabbanim are wrong, then I'll listen. Instead you are relying on the word of a Beit Din that no one accepts.
Who the heck are you to go speak against R' Feinstein? What are your qualifications other that spewing forth loshon hora and motzei shem ra on this site. So you don't like Rav Gestetner thats your business some people on this site don't approve of what r' amar paskened either, that doesnt give anyone a right to knock either one of them.
Keep up your disrespect and keep on being michshal everyone with your perversion of Halachah, maybe you if you try hard enough you will be the next shabbsai tzvi!
Two words of advice before delving into kabbalah maybe you should work on hilchos lashon hora, motzei shem ra and derech eretz.
While I don't agree with stans points on sephardim I do believe he brings up good points. If you are really interested in the truth you would address them and not attack him personally. Although, I do question as to whether you seek the truth for in previous comments you have made on this site you have never once apologized or admitted to it when your views were proven wrong.
Who is speaking against Rav Reuven? He has said nothing either way in this case. The issues as they now stand are between a great many important and respected Chareidi Rabbanim, Rav Gestetner and Weiss.
Are you for real? How stupid and reckless can you be? You never looked into all of the documents. thank g-d you are not a dayan. How could you speak out without seeing all of the documents. How could speak against a grandson of r' reuven and cause people to be michshol without looking into all the facts. One day you will have to beg mechillah from reb reuven for causing him tzaar. Please stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
Any paper that come out by Ora is worth nothing. If all those gedolim signed how come not one of them were at the protest or their respective yeshivahs?
It is quite obvious that you know very little about the case and of R' Feinstein. In general R' feinstein is very low key he is a tremendous anav and one that is very careful in his words. Just because he hasn't spoken publicly about it doesn't mean he has not said anything on the matter in private.
Please stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
You never looked into the facts and basing your opinions on what the apikorsim org. ora has said.
No many of them came to this wealth from taking money from their primitive unsuspecting followers.
When you provide documents that Rabbi Reuvein Feinstein is corrupt then i will listen to you. We already have a motive for kotler and proof from the Friedman case that Kamenetsky gets it wrong, especially when money is involved.
i am still awaiting you answer as to why someone who went to arko'oys is not chayav for the nitvah's legal fees. even the BDA disagree with you.
I go by what's right and factual not by what the ignorant masses say. According to your logic we should be chas ve shalam christian or fez muslim.
There is no need for documents! Whatever Jeremy Stern says is nevuah! Stan, how do you expect him to get documents when he can't even get the names of the signators right?
Two reasons: Primarily because I trust the Gedolei HaDor that signed saying that Weiss abandonned his wife, and then obtained an illegitimate heter from an illegitimate B"D to go to Arkaot.
Secondarily I live in Israel so it is hard to obtain court documents, especially when I don't know which of New Jersey's 21 counties they were filed in.
Are you for real? How stupid and reckless can you be? You never looked into all of the documents. thank g-d you are not a dayan. How could you speak out without seeing all of the documents. How could speak against a grandson of r' reuven and cause people to be michshol without looking into all the facts. One day you will have to beg mechillah from reb reuven for causing him tzaar. Please stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
Any paper that come out by Ora is worth nothing. If all those gedolim signed how come not one of them were at the protest or their respective yeshivahs?
Rabbi Michael TzadokJune 25, 2012 5:48 PM "In the meantime why don't you stop lying about what I said. You are severely misrepresenting my position, either maliciously or because you lack basic reading comprehension.
Oh and those seven sources don't outweigh the Shulhan Arukh, Rema, Sma, Shakh, Gra, and other Notei Kelim that I quoted. Have a nice day."
Please supply us with the exact places for your purported sources just like Rav Gestetner posted his sources. I have no doubt this is not at all what they say. According to you the Divrei Chaim of Sanz, the Maharik etc were all ignorant of the Shulchan Oruch, Rema etc
By the way the word is Nosei even in havara sefardit. Nota is to plant as in nota be'socheinu. But i was accused by Tzaddok previously of not knowing Hebrew.
A failure to do so will be clear sign that these are purely invented as usual.
Lying racist. I already answered this fully here regarding what is written in siman 388:5 regarding what the litigant believed was a valid; claim. You copied it over onto your identity theft blog here. I'm not going to discuss this with you here, as it has no bearing on what is being done by this illegitimate Beit Din.
Further to that whatever is or is not between Rav Kotler and Rav Reuven Feinstein have not bearing on this either, as the situation is about Rav Reuven, its about Weiss.
Unless you can offer solid documentary proof that Rav Kamenetsky and Rav Wachtfogel have taken these supposed bribes and some B"D somewhere has ruled that they are possul Eidut/Rabbanut/Dayyanut because of it, it is pure Motzei Shem Ra.
The same with what you have said about Rav Green pointing to blogs and unofficial documents. Pure Motzei Shem Ra and absolutely baseless.
You asked for a case where Rav Gestetner acted against Halakha. See the above Bitul Seruv. It is forbidden for a Beit Din to mevatel the ruling of another Beit Din. Let's start with the Gemarra Bava Batra 138b, see the Rashbam there D"H ומשני ב"ד Rambam Seder Olam Klal 10, Rosh Klal 85:5 Darkhei Moshe end of Siman 20. Shulhan Arukh Hoshem Mishpat Siman 20.
Talking about obfuscation. We have people who want to make this about several things: 1) Rav Reuven Feinstein: It is not. 2) The proper interpretation of Hoshen Mishpat 388:5- it is not. 3) The Abuchatzeira family: it is not.
What this is about, and what none of the misogynists who are mevazeh important and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim in order to make a separate Torah for men and women.
What this is about is a Bitul Seruv that was written against Halakha that is meforash in the Mishnah, Gemarrah, Rishonim and Acharonim(here is a partial list of sources Gemarra Bava Batra 138b, see the Rashbam there D"H ומשני ב"ד Rambam Seder Olam Klal 10, Rosh Klal 85:5 Darkhei Moshe end of Siman 20. Shulhan Arukh Hoshen Mishpat Siman 20).
Read the fourth paragraph of the above "Bitul Seruv". Rav Gestetner(and since their are not other signatures affixed we have to assume he alone), has the absolute Chutzpah to declare nidui, on all of the Dayyanim of the Beit Din Mechon L'Hoyroa and the honorable and respected Rabbanim, Rav Kotler, Rav Greenblat, Rav Kamenetsky and Rav Wachtfogel. Not only does he declare a Nidui, but he says, "שאין להם חלק לעוב"ה ויורדין לגהינום ואינם עולים ואין להם כפרת עולמית" They have no place in the world to come, they will descend into hell and never arise, they will have no forgiveness forever.
No wonder they all want to obfuscate. Seriously? You want the world to take this supposed "bitul seruv", that was already written in flagrant violation of halakha, seriously with language like that aimed at important and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim? Yeah if I were trying to back that, I would try to make it about other non-issues as well.
Reply to Tzadok: "It is forbidden for a Beit Din to mevatel the ruling of another Beit Din. "
Tzadok is once again employing erroneous and obfuscating halachic claims in his desparate attempts to validate his position, instead of focusing on the facts of the divorce case being discussed.
One can receive a PDF file of the kuntress "Mishpatim Kechilchasam" by sending an email to pdf@sendfast.org with the number 5002 in the subject field.
In seman thirty of that kuntress many sources are brought which allow a Bais Din psak to be reviewed when errors are found, and which require one Bais Din to inform a Baal Din of errors committed by another Bais Din - Tur, Rosh, Pischei Tshuvah, Maharsham, Rashbah, etc.
Even those who hold by Baba Basra 138b (Bais Din basar bais din lo dayeki), allow an erroneous Bais Din ruling to be reviewed, due to the prevalence of Bais Din errors nowadays.
Reply to Tzadok: "none of the misogynists", "racist"
Looks like Tzadok is getting mighty desperate by playing the race card and the gender card.
Tzadok's using the same techniques that Sharpie Al Sharpton and Jeremy Stern use - avoid logic and the facts, and instead whip up the mob using the race card and the gender card.
I cited seman thirty of the kuntress "Mishpatim Kechilchasam" in my comment about how halacha allows one Bais Din may protest another Bais Din's errors.
The correct seman is 31, on page 45 of the kuntress.
One more point re: the Gemara statement "Bais Din basar bais din lo dayeki" (It is forbidden for a Beit Din to nullify the ruling of another Beit Din.)
This Gemara can only refer to a situation where a litigant signed a shtar birurin (contract) and appeared before a Bais Din which issued the erroneous ruling. Since Mr. Weiss apparently never signed a shtar birurin with Machon L'Horoya, the Gemara statement cannot be applied at all in that case.
Therefore Tzadok has no justification for falsely applying that Gemara statement to the Weiss case.
Yeah then there is that. The entire basis for the psak of the one man Beit Din known as Rav Gestetner is patently false. But don't let facts get in the way of trashing a Chareidi Beit Din and four highly respected Chareidi Gedolim.
So after he got a hazmanah from a valid Beit Din, that he ran to a Beit Din so notoriously corrupt that the Chief Rabbinate has stated that it will cease to recognize any Dayyan that sits with them. That this notoriously corrupt and unrecognized Beit Din supposedly mavateled a seruv from a recognized Chareidi Beit Din and gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court against the wife he abandoned.
ReplyDeleteIn short this Psak isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Is Rav Gestetner the only Rav on that court, or are the others too afraid of having their Dayyanus possuled to sign it's piskei Din?
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. Surely one can ascertain the facts here. Who really took who to court?
ReplyDelete"So after he got a hazmanah from a valid Beit Din, that he ran to a Beit Din so notoriously corrupt that the Chief Rabbinate has stated that it will cease to recognize any Dayyan that sits with them. That this notoriously corrupt and unrecognized Beit Din supposedly mavateled a seruv from a recognized Chareidi Beit Din and gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court against the wife he abandoned.
ReplyDeleteIn short this Psak isn't worth the paper it's written on."
Once again a totally unsubstantiated and baseless attack. We will see who is right in the end.
The same Rabbannut that no one even relies on their hechsherirm during non-shemitah years has spoken and the Brisker Rov assured from entering.
Unless Michael Tzadok you can point to a case showing where Rav Gestetner and RavAabraham broke the halochoh and an Odom Godol came out against them with mareh mekomos and they were unable to show their own mareh mekomos, This attack by Michael tzaddok should not have been passed by the censor board of this web site.
It should be emphasized again and again that these two Av botei Din are the only two who refuse to take money for sitting on botei din. pretty hard to call them corrupt and bribable Michael tzadok.
So your best response is that I'm a rasha and Rav Amar is an Am HaAretz(l'havdil). But you cannot substantially answer why no one accepts this Beit Din, no why the esteemed Rabbanim who signed the Seruv, inluding Rav Wachtfogel, and Rav Kotler, continue to uphold it in the face of this farce.
DeleteSurely you are not going to tell me that they two have been bitten by the bug of liberalism and feminism.
It's not a baseless attack. Just a few weeks ago this Beis din attacked Reb Sholomo Miller because he told someone who remarried without giving a get that he has divorce his wife because he was עובר חרם דרבינו . This was his fifth or sixth marriage . He owed money to his previous wife and left. And this Beis din had the chutzpah to give him a heter meah. The latest now is to mevatel another Beis dins seiruv. I wouldn't put any trust in any psak from such a Beis din.
Deleteive seen the original documents and it states clearly that weiss opened proceedings and sued for custody and alimony! weiss sees the kid twice a week plus he gets him every other weekend HE WANTS SPLIT CUSTODY!!
ReplyDeleteReply to Tzadok -
ReplyDelete"gave the man a (fake) heter to go to court"
Tzadok, who claims to be a "rabbi", apparently never even read the Bitul Seruv letter from Bais Din Shar HaMishpot.
Nowhere does the Bitul Seruv letter say a word about the husband receiving any heter to go to (non-Jewish) court. On the contrary, the letter clearly states that the wife is the tovaas (Plaintiff) in non-Jewish court, and that she falsely accused the husband of being the Plaintiff, and obtained a pasul seruv against him using her false accusation.
Tzadok, the ORA propagandist, has demonstrated once again his lack of intellectual honesty and his utter contempt for Ashkenazi Chareidi rabbanim, while employing his standard techniques of spewing bare faced lies and obfuscations on a non-suspecting Jewish public.
At least he uses his real name.
DeleteJames what are you five? You are no better, look whos talking. Avoid the facts and spin Ora troll. The readers are on to you.
DeleteI once had reason to call up Gestetner's BD in Rockland County. I can vouch for the fact that, whoever it was I spoke to, was the rudest and most sarcastic person I have ever spoken to.
ReplyDeleteDovy
ReplyDeletei once had reason to go to Belsky and he was very rude, kept us waiting for no reason and also very sarcastic. then he made us walk and he took elavator. he then tried to get me to come back but I refused to go.
Stan and Emes,
ReplyDeleteIt really helps nobody that you both keep attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue.
In particular, in this instance, R' Tzadok has produced a document which certainly casts aspersions on this Beis Din. Now, you may well bring the Brisker Rav to the table, but frankly, you do NOT know what the Brisker Rav would have said in this INSTANCE if he had the information which R' Amar used to conclude and express his view. It is simply POINTLESS bringing up past Gedolim in the context of such arguments. The Brisker Rav was an Ish HoEmes. He may well have taken a view that would surprise you. He often did.
In regards this case, it surely is a question of facts. R' Gestetner's Beis Din has concluded that the wife went to court first. Is that indeed the case? If it is not, then that Beis Din's comments can be given no weight.
Mivakesh HaEmes claims to have seen the documents. Can he post them? Are they in the public domain? It seems to me that the truth here is somewhat easy to ascertain. It is really not necessary to descend into the depths of Sinah that some of the commenters here seem so quick to do.
It is more than that Rav Amar simply concluded that the Beit Din was problematic. It was that he concluded that it was SO PROBLEMATIC that it would result in the possul dayyanut to any dayyan that would join with it. That is quite serious to say the least.
DeleteBeis din machon l"hora and ora both hav the docs- everyone agrees that machon lhora contacted weiss for months and months b4 the siruv GESTETNER NEVER CONTACTED THE WIFE!
DeleteMachon lhora does not issue siruvim lightly they are the toughest and most honest bd in the america
Stan- u say wife went to court. But hes suing for full custody legal fees and alimony.
ReplyDelete"It really helps nobody that you both keep attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue.
ReplyDeleteIn particular, in this instance, R' Tzadok has produced a document which certainly casts aspersions on this Beis Din."
Your statement is entirely self contradictory. What is the statement of the purported rabbanut? It is a statement "attacking the person rather than dealing with the issue."
1.Was a hearing held to determine that these Dayonim had broken halochoh? No
2.Were these dayonim given a chance to defend themselves? No.
3. What were the allegations against them? Unknown and non existent.
This letter is a joke. There is no basis to this letter. It is because Rav Gestetner and Rav Abraham have themselves attacked the corruption of the rabannut that it was issued e.g. what the rabbanut did to yosef dov meyerson, a classic example of the rabbanut not following halochoh.
I reiterate my challenge: Show me a single example of a real case of misconduct al pi halochoh where rav gestetner/ abraham ruled incorrectly against halochoh and were unable to bring acceptable sources showing that their position was legitimate instead of falling behind a corrupt letter from an utterly discredited and illegitimate organization which is just a personal attack.
Pitputim, before you post, please think if your statement makes any sense.
Lastly where is the condemnation from the Rabbanut of the violation of the halochoh by the following Botei Din:
1) Livingstone Street - the Supreme Court had to overturn a ruling because of bias
2)The BDA for using secular law instead of halochoh and for supporting women in arko'oys
3) Acharon acharon choviv- Belsky who was universally condemned for being mafkiah kiddushin le'mafraih and allegedly for the Rabbi Avromi Rubin "event"?
The rabbanut's paymasters are prikei ol. What a joke. I am glad that the same paymasters are now paying reform clergy officially because they have been doing so unofficially for a very long time.
Documents were sent to Machon L"horo by the Nitva Weiss and the purported bais din allegedly ignored them.
ReplyDeletetzadok's remarks are too weak to even deserve a response.
The mother witheld the child from the father.
ReplyDeleteThe father got a Heter Arkoos from Rabbi Wohlhendler zt"l
He went to court for emergency releif to see his child
"beis Din" Mechon lhora (corrupt) sent him a hazmana for going to arkoos.
Weiss responded htat he had a heter. this was ignored.
Before they issued the third hazmana, the wife wemt to court and filed for divirce.
This made weiss the defendant - unable to withdraw.This information was given to mechon - they ignored it.
Weiss offered to go to zabla with R' Wohlhendler as his Borer. Mechon ignored this as well.
Mechon then issued their bogus siruv.
Why??? I am still researching the answer to this question.
Stay tuned.
the problem with this whole situation and i am speaking as one intimately involved is that both sides are wrong and not willing to be flexible there have been meeting behind closed doors where the wife was offered compromises by third parties and she refused this is not to say that the husband is in the right he is also wrong but im just saying that its easier to make the man look the devil by virtue of the fact that he can give the get you need to realize that she holds a tremendous power in the child his only power is to refuse a get until an acceptable agreement is worked out also since she has kotler on her side it is almost impossible for him to get an unbiased hearing in machon lehorah also one must realize that at no point did any bais din require him to give a get they only want him to do the custody with them hence their refusal to do habala
DeleteBTW, say waht you want about R' Gestetner, forget his name is attached to this, and check the facts!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe tzadok on the requirements for a valid Bais Din
ReplyDeleteAccording the Tzadok, it is necessary for the Bais Din to be recognized by breakers of the halochoh, namely the Rabbanut. The Brisker Rov assured one from even entering Haichal Shlomo. This notorious rabbanut that no yirei shomayim would rely on for kashrus suddenly becomes the final arbiter in hilchos gittin when it is a get meuseh factory producing fake gittin all the time.
No requirement from this Tzadok for halochoh to be followed. Only to be recognized by the kalif/sultan Amar. That's all. Tzadok you can fool some of the people all the time and all the people (bar me) some of the time but not all the people all the time. Produce a case where Rav Gestetner violated halochoh, names, dates etc and who went against him. Otherwise shut your ignorant mouth on matters you should not be poking your nose into. Stick to quoting from Fez, Casablanca, Rabat etc.
http://michael-tzadok.blogspot.com/
Feinstein divorce: Tzedoki- Kol haposel be'mumo posel
ReplyDeleteMichael tzadok is such an ignoramous that he does not even know who elya ber is. He is further guilty of being mevazeh Rav Gestetner berabim for which he loses his chelek l'oylom habo by calling him corrupt, when the opposite may be true.
Has he ever brought any proof that Rav Gestetner is corrupt. No, simply a stupid letter from the Sefardi political king called Amar. Are there any examples of a violation of halochoh? No.
We all know how corrupt the Sefardi elite rabbis are amassing hundreds of millions of shekels from their poor ignorant and very very primitive followers. And Tzadok claims to be a member of the notorious Abuchateria family who have distorted the legacy of the baba sali to enrich themselves. This is where Tzedokki purports to come from. Take no notice of his comments. They have no basis in fact.
Reply to Emes -
ReplyDelete"He went to court for emergency releif to see his child"
A source familiar with the Weiss case provided me information which confirms that your description of the case is accurate.
Know that this situation is not uncommon - a heartbroken father, unable to see his beloved child, obtains a valid heter to file a limited action in Court (archaos) only for purposes of obtaining some visitation time with his child, which has been denied him by his vindictive wife. The wife then responds by filing a full blown divorce law suit in Court. A "Bais Din" then ignores the wife's halachic violations in archaos and instead places a pasul seruv on the father. This situation repeats itself over and over.
The ORA feminist storm troopers then roar into action, waging a vicious harassment and defamation war against a Jewish father who only desired to see his child and who had attempted to settle the case al pi halacha.
Thank you Emes,
DeleteNew info that clears some things up.
Kotler/Dodelson case was brought to Mechon by none other than the notorious Shmiel Fried. He brings cases to mechon, they carry his water. he says give siruv, they give. Who got Kotler his heter meah (which everyone likes to ignore, oh how p.c.) shmiel fried and dodelsons grandfather Volpo from Bnei Brak! Gee whiz everybody!! follow the crumbs!!!
BTW, people are saying that Rabbo Wohlhandler, Weiss's first choice as a borer to go to zabla, was in a coma at the time. That is a blatant lie. i spoke to his son, he told me that his father caRED alot about hte caSE and he was fully ready and even eager to take on the case. If there were more people like him around we wouldnt be in the mess we are in.
A message to Tzadok and the ORA trolls on this blog -
ReplyDeleteYour ruthless and cruel disregard for the pain of Jewish fathers denied access to their children by their vindictive wives is abominable and disgustingly un-Jewish.
If you persist in aiding and abetting Jewish wives who deny their husbands access to their children, then midah k'neged midah, perhaps Hashem will remove your children from you so you can experience the pain and humiliation suffered by the Jewish fathers denied access to their children by vindictive wives.
So are you saying that Rav Kotler et. al. are ruthless an cruel? Are they also supporters of ORA?
DeleteWeiss was allowed access to his child so your argument is pointless.
You are dealing with a well respected Beit Din and well respected Rabbanim against a universally despised Beit Din.
No Michael he is saying that you actions are cruel and ruthless. You claim that you are a cousin of the Holy baba sali Zt'l. The baba sali would have never ever associated with ORA. The Baba Sali wouldn't even let someone without a beard into his minyan let alone work together with someone who has gone a national news network and say that he wants to change halacha or run fundraisers in a treif bar and get Jewish singles drunk or have men and half naked women sing together at protests.
DeleteOn this blog there have been plenty of articles showing how Jeremy stern has lied and spread misinformation in other situations. The man advocates using children as tool that is child abuse. How in your right mind can you support someone who advocates child abuse? Even if the husband is 100% wrong that still doesn't give you a right to abuse children.
Unfortunately today you have to do your own research in matters by literally calling each person on both sides and asking how much they themselves really know about the case not just what some askan told them.. Looking at a paper distributed by Ora that was typed up on a word processor with a couple of stamps mean nothing. Where were the supposed signators who signed that paper? none of them were at the protest? I highly doubt they support Ora or that they are fully aware of how they operate or what kefirah they spew forth.
It is so easy for you from the comfort of your computer to condemn fathers that you never met or have bothered to speak to every party involved.
Who is saying anything about supporting ORA? I have repeatedly said I DO NOT support ORA.
DeleteNot everything is about ORA. There is a valid Chareidi Beit Din, and valid and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim who say that the husband is clearly in the wrong. That he ran out out on his wife and then went to court against her, against halakha.
ORA has nothing to do with any of that. Now this husband runs to an illegitimate Beit Din, to try and get his way.
That the wife went to ORA, while I don't agree with ORA, I can understand why. Her husband is going to get a fake heter from this B"D to take her to court. He is going to get a supposed heter Meah Rabbanim to remarry without giving her a Get. And this woman, that he abandonned is going to be left with nothing. Under those circumstances why wouldn't she go to ORA?
You obviously know very little about the case and of R' Feinstein. In general R' feinstein is very low key he is a tremendous anav and one that is very careful in his words. Just because he hasn't spoken publicly about it doesn't mean he has not said anything on the matter in private.
DeleteIf the rabbanim signed a letter against weiss why weren't any of them at the protest? Instead just a handful of dodelsons family and friends came out. WHere was the entire LAkewood and Philidelphia yeshivas?
While you may hate stan and as you have admitted that you did not see the documnets from the court. Why don't you do your own homework before jumping in bed with Ora. Ora has already proven that they are apikorsim and have lied in previous cases. Any woman who uses their services risk the chances of getting a pasul get. In addition one has no choice but to question and suspect that the complete opposite of what the woman is claims The fact is Ora are paid hit men from wives looking to get revenge on their ex spouses. They threaten rabbanim with terror if they dont go along with their agenda as they have in NJ and silver spring.
Point in case the friedman case, Ora goes around protesting by his uncle and the mother claiming they are his key supporters. Fact is they live over four and a half hours away and aharon only sees them a couple of times a year. Yet they continue to protest and harrass his family. The way Ora portrays it is that aharon is their all of the time. What is the point of the protests if he is hardly ever there? Besides he is an adult old enough to make his own decisions. The reality is this is just revenge from his ex and there is no heter for it since they obviously have no influence on him. Yet in other posts you seem to be fine with it. Anyone who is mevayish someone has no chelek in olam habba.
You were quick to to condemn friedman but you didnt even bother to look into all the details. Instead Just read some stupid letter from R' hershel shachter claiming that whatever R' kaminetsky says is Nevuah without even looking into the facts. Or that bogus seruv that was issued after one hazmanah froma rabbi who has a reputation of accepting of being michshal the rabbim. Even he said that is is assur to protest. Unlike you I actually bothered to see all of the documents and speak to people involved. There is a lot more to this case that what Ora says.
Dont be so naive people mislead rabbanim and get them to sign things that they dont even know what they are signing or lie about the facts. get all of the facts before speaking out in public and do your own homework.
Furthermore the fact that Ms Dodelson was the Plaintiff explains why Weiss was permitted al pi halochoh to claim alimony which he normally would have not been allowed to claim if he was the toveah because a usual hetter bais din only allows you to claim what the torah would grant you and alimony is not permitted in genreal. if the other side goes to arko'oys you can even claim more than what the torah grants you according to many poskim. so everything now ties in beautifully.
ReplyDeleteOnly problem the corrupt YU guys will attempt to twist things wityh their apologist Michael Tszaddok yet again
FYI,
ReplyDeleteI have heard that the baal is not asking for alimony at all. he is asking for legal fees but why shouldnt he? As for asking for money in his original application to the court, this was an emergency filing. that language was part of a boilerplate application, it was never pursued in court,and the weiss's did not pursue it. THe Dodelsuns on the other hand dod press for hefty child support payments form the fahter who is learning. i dont know wht he is paying, but i heard it is a ridiculous amount.
Sam "SamJune 24, 2012 3:56 PM
ReplyDeleteIt's not a baseless attack. Just a few weeks ago this Beis din attacked Reb Sholomo Miller because he told someone who remarried without giving a get that he has divorce his wife because he was עובר חרם דרבינו . This was his fifth or sixth marriage . He owed money to his previous wife and left. And this Beis din had the chutzpah to give him a heter meah. The latest now is to mevatel another Beis dins seiruv. I wouldn't put any trust in any psak from such a Beis Din"
1)Your statement is a contradiction. How can he be oyver cheirem d'rabeinu gershom if the bais din gave him a heter meah?
2)If the woman was a moredes, you do not need a hetter meah according to the Divrei Chaim and the Achiezer who are much bigger than Shlomo Miller so R Gestetner is being machmir.
3)Rav Gestetner tried several times to personally contact Reb Shlomo Miller but he wasn't available.
4) If he owed her money, why does she not get a hetter from Miller to go to arko'oys? this has nothing to do with the hetter.
Rav Gestetner spends hours checking documents. The same cannot be said for other people like Miller who have big empires to run. Rav G is called corrupt all the time but the facts always come out on his side - see this Feinstein case where people were naive enough to think the Feinsteins will ruin their name by going to arko'oys 1st without a hetter. The truth was on the other side.
You can call rav Gestetner and Rav Abraham corrupt as much as you like. You will have to answer in shomayim because the facts are always in his favor.
I reiterateL these are the only 2 botei din which are for free so what incentive do they have to sell themselves to the non-existent highest bidder? I am waiting for a motive still.
Previously it was claimed by Michael Tzadok that there was no requirement if a Plaintiff went to arko'oys shelo kdin without a hetter that there is no requirement for this plaintiff to have pay the nitvah's legal fees. Clearly Tzadok is ignorant in this matter as rav Gestetner has brought 7 sources:
ReplyDelete1) Shut Aidus Be'yosef
2) Shut Nos deshe
3) Maharik
4) Bais Yitzchok
5) Divrei Chaim
6) Netzach yisroel
7) Mishne halochos - Hagoan Hagodol Moron shel kol bnei hagola Rav Menashe Klein.
I believe it would be only appropriate that Tzadok has the decency to apologize to the readers of this blog for misinforming and misleading them.
Anonymoust person who like to write racist things. I am begging Rav Eidensohn to put all of your comments through so that world may see just how deranged you are.
DeleteIn the meantime why don't you stop lying about what I said. You are severely misrepresenting my position, either maliciously or because you lack basic reading comprehension.
Oh and those seven sources don't outweigh the Shulhan Arukh, Rema, Sma, Shakh, Gra, and other Notei Kelim that I quoted. Have a nice day.
Here's a simple question for the Rav Gestetner supporters.
ReplyDeleteWhy do Rav Kotler, Rav Wachtfogel, Rav Greenblatt, and Rav Kamenetsky not accept his intervention if he is such a reliable Chareidi Beit din? They are all well respected Chareidi Rabbanim.
I don't see the Chief Rabbinate or the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Monsey writing that any of them are not to be relied upon. Or Rav Yitzchak Meyer Morgenshtern condemning any of their decisions the way he did that of Rav Gestetner's handling of the Mendel Blum(because of the language that Rav Morgenshtern uses I'm not going to post the link here, it can be found by googling Morgenshtern and Gestetner in Hebrew).
That's an aweful lot of well respected Chareidi Rabbanim coming out against a Beit Din that is supposed to be an upstanding Chareidi Beit Din.
Previously it was claimed without any basis other than an ad hominem attack by the corrupt rabbanut that Rav Gestetner was corrupt by Michael Tzadok and "Sam" and possibly some others.
ReplyDeleteClearly the fact that Avrohom meir Weiss was forced to go to arko'oys only about visitation because his wife refused to grant him visitation and would not adhere to halochoh by preventing the child from seeing its father and from her failure to listen to avrohom meir's bais din and he did so with a hetter from Rabbi Wohlhandler should require an apology from Tzadok, Sam et al for attacking the Weiss and Feinstein family falsely and they should also apologize if they have any decency for calling Rav Gestetner corrupt when the facts prove that it is machon le'horoo that issued a false siruv and the wife dodelson in fact went to arko'oys shelo k'din since avrohom mair was tzias dina gomur by offering 2 borrerim.
Do Tzadok and Sam have any decency to do the right thing and make the appropriate apologies? I doubt it but I hope and look forward to being proved wrong.
Apologize for what?
DeleteRav Kotler, Rav Greenblatt, Rav Wachtfogel and Rav Kamenetsky(all major and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim have said that Weis is in the wrong).
Furthermore the Beit Din of Gestetner/Abraham/Wohlhander has been publicly denounced by Rav Shlomo Amar, Rav Gree(Rosh Yeshiva of Monsey Yeshiva) and Rav Yitzchak Meyer Morgenshtern(Rosh Yeshiva of Toras Chakham) again all well respected Chareidi Rabbanim.
You have no answer for why all of these Chareidi Rabbanim come out so strongly against this trio.
So please when Chareidi Rabbanim, well respected Chareidi Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivot say that the Beit Din cannot be relied upon(again their language is much stronger than that) why should we?
This is from the identity theft blog that Stan has set up in my name. Just to give everyone an idea of the kind of person that we are dealing with here. These are his words:
DeleteMichael tzadok is such an ignoramous that he does not even know who elya ber is. He is further guilty of being mevazeh Rav Gestetner berabim for which he loses his chelek l'oylom habo by calling him corrupt, when the opposite may be true.
Has he ever brought any proof that Rav Gestetner is corrupt. No, simply a stupid letter from the Sefardi political king called Amar. Are there any examples of a violation of halochoh? No.
We all know how corrupt the Sefardi elite rabbis are amassing hundreds of millions of shekels from their poor ignorant and very very primitive followers. And Tzadok claims to be a member of the notorious Abuchateria family who have distorted the legacy of the baba sali to enrich themselves. This is where Tzedokki purports to come from. Take no notice of his comments. They have no basis in fact.
Just so that everyone knows the kind of sick individual we are dealing with.
For the record, you have just posted extremely personal attacks from Tzaddok. It has already been explained that Kotler is against the Feinsteins and these people Dodelsons are very rich and we already have seen that kamenetsky's yeshiva was on the take in the Friedman case.
ReplyDeleteThese very emotional postings from Tzadok confirm he is not interested in the facts but in maligning his opponents. He previously claimed there was no basis for legal fees al pi halocho but has been disproven yet again.
I personally had a mayseh with Machon leHoroya - my ex-wife sued me in arko'os, after I was naive enough to give her a get before negotiating a settlement. I had Machon send her three hazmonos. I never once received a hazmono from her to go to any bd. After charging me money to send the hazmonos, Machon sent her a hasroas siruv. She went to a left-wing feminist bd that NO chareidi would ever take seriously, and that "b'd" sent a letter to machon telling them that they had investigated and that my ex-wife had a valid heter arko'os, and that Machon should therefore not issue a siruv. To my surprise, Machon listened to them! Machon never decided on its own whether the heter was valid, but blindly took the word of this joke of a modern orthodox bd. And how could it be a valid heter when I never ever received a hazmono to go to bd!
ReplyDeleteI later learned through inside sources that Machon does some kashrus work with the organization that is affiliated with the modern orthodox lefty bd, and that they didn't want to make waves because it could cost them kashrus money.
Machon is a big joke. Too bad Shmiel Fried wasn't my to'en, because evidently they do whatever he tells them to do.
Produce the documents or it never happened.
DeleteYou dont always need to send hazmanas to get a heter arkaot. I dont know your case but the fact that you did not receive a hazmana is not sufficient to condemn the BD for giving a heter arkaot.
DeleteRabbi Michael Tzadok, how do I send you the docs? I do not want to post them but I will gladly send them to you in confidence.
DeleteOnce again Tzadok obfuscates by refusing to answer why this fake seruv is anything but that. He claims:
ReplyDelete1) why did kotler sign on it? simple he is against the feinstein's - he still has a wife by this name in israel.
2) ask the above as well as elya ber and shmuel kamenetsky why they have no problems with an employee of the Agudah being machzik in arko'oys and they are well aware of this.
3) moshe green is not a dayan but since ytou want an explanation, here it is, you can read it yourself:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19478984/Rabbi-Green-Getting-Paid-Off
http://rabbiniccorruptionatrcc.blogspot.com/2009/09/rabbi-moshe-green-violates-rabeinu-tam.html
4) As far as Bluhm is concerned, perhaps you would like to explain to DT and the rest of the readership how a Get forced through kidnapping is a valid get.
So your response is that we are supposed to believe that Rav Gestetner is a tzadik(l'havdil) while Rav Kotler, Rav Wachtfogel, Rav Green and Rav Kamenetsky are taking bribes(Chas V'Shalom).
DeleteYou still haven't explained Rav Greenblatt or Rav Morgenshtern.
Oh and as far as Rav Amar, I will let your blatantly racist remarks stand for themselves.
You'll be mevazeh the entire Chareidi world, and you demand an apology. Absurd.
Regarding the facts in any of these cases you have yet to provide a single scrap of proof outside of documents written by a Beit Din that no one accepts.
DeleteNo Stan, when a Beis din issues a heter meyah for someone who remarried without a get, without paying his wife his debts, not to mention it is his fifth or sixth marriage, and Reb Shlomo puts a stop to this craziness that one cant go against Rabbeni Gershom and this person is in cherem, and this Beis din has the chutzpah to write against Reb Shlomo for following and upholding Halacha , then yes, I have a problem with them . Now add all the other Rabonim who are against this Beis din, and no you will not get any apology from me. Now you still have to show me how he got a heter to go to secular court and not deal with a proper accepted Beis din. Ok Stan the ball is in your court.
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome to call rav gestetner. i am not his spokesman on each and every case. i know the blum case because it is famous but i am sure if you bring documents to rav gestetner that he was not aware of he will change his position if that makes sense. did this woman go to arko'oys?
ReplyDeletereb shlomo miller is pretty controversial himself and many, many people are against him in lakewood. if you don't get a satisfactory answer from rav gestetner, i will be willing to supply you with an email and will present your side to him. I know that in a previous high profile divorce that r miller and r elya ber were fighting like mad against each other.
i presume you are the brother in law of this ex-wife. i told you already money has nothing to do with gerushin you are mixing 2 separate things. from the way it sounds you are definitely nogeah be'dovor here. it doesn't mean 100% that you are wrong but until there is a need for me to spend my time on this, i won't.
for the record rav gestetner does not issue heter meah rabonim - only rav abraham does. but rav gestetner defended the legitamicy of this one. i certainly will not ask rav gestetner about this until you put in writing that his wife did not go to arko'oys on this blog.
This is just another example of the shtusim that get blogged on the net.
ReplyDeleteMany sites bashmootzed the Weisses and the Fiensteins based on "IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE".
And that Reb Reuvain is a shaigetz and kol dovor osur (Chas V'sholom).
Then we get the REAL story how the other side MISLEAD the bais din (by the bais din's own admission). Not only did they mislead that bais din, they mislead many Rosh Hayeshivos and Rabbonim.
A while later the truth emerges. Most of sites deny that the truth is true by rationalizing some fanatic scenario of how that "truth" can't be true. And at the end the original "nirdaf" still ends up being the bad guy. This occurs on a daily basis.
What is mind- boggling is that even so called honest sites fall right into this trap.
So why sites don't mind their own business, and why people support "those" support organizations and blogs, which are based on deception, defies logic. What is most surprising is that even sites such as Daas Torah sometimes unknowingly are snared into this "dead end", and the lame excuses they offer in defense are not acceptable halachacly defintly not 'b'din shamyim.
http://news.yahoo.com/forbes-lists-israels-richest-rabbis-israeli-media-143006711.html
ReplyDeleteand they are aminly sefardim so what is michael tzadok's problem?
Rich does not mean corrupt. Rav Pinto for instance is a real-estate mogul(so is Donald Trump).
DeleteCan you prove that any of these Rabbis did not come by their wealth honestly from either hard work or honest investments?
learn from your mistakes. I have been vugorously defending the feinsteins but Sam and especially Michael tzadok who is repeatedly been shown to be incorrect refuse to apologize, self-righteously trying to claim that in other instances rav gestetner is wrong.
ReplyDeletethat is their opinions which is in all likelihood to also be wrong but in this case they have proven to be wrong but cannot bring themselves to apologize.
tzaddok continues to do this for months already and his only answer is that i am racist.
Stan you are up to your sock puppetry again.
ReplyDeleteWhen you provide documentary proof(i.e. court documents) that show that these Chareidi Rabbanim are wrong, then I'll listen. Instead you are relying on the word of a Beit Din that no one accepts.
Who the heck are you to go speak against R' Feinstein? What are your qualifications other that spewing forth loshon hora and motzei shem ra on this site. So you don't like Rav Gestetner thats your business some people on this site don't approve of what r' amar paskened either, that doesnt give anyone a right to knock either one of them.
DeleteKeep up your disrespect and keep on being michshal everyone with your perversion of Halachah, maybe you if you try hard enough you will be the next shabbsai tzvi!
Two words of advice before delving into kabbalah maybe you should work on hilchos lashon hora, motzei shem ra and derech eretz.
While I don't agree with stans points on sephardim I do believe he brings up good points. If you are really interested in the truth you would address them and not attack him personally. Although, I do question as to whether you seek the truth for in previous comments you have made on this site you have never once apologized or admitted to it when your views were proven wrong.
Who is speaking against Rav Reuven? He has said nothing either way in this case. The issues as they now stand are between a great many important and respected Chareidi Rabbanim, Rav Gestetner and Weiss.
DeleteAre you for real? How stupid and reckless can you be? You never looked into all of the documents. thank g-d you are not a dayan. How could you speak out without seeing all of the documents. How could speak against a grandson of r' reuven and cause people to be michshol without looking into all the facts. One day you will have to beg mechillah from reb reuven for causing him tzaar. Please stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
DeleteAny paper that come out by Ora is worth nothing. If all those gedolim signed how come not one of them were at the protest or their respective yeshivahs?
It is quite obvious that you know very little about the case and of R' Feinstein. In general R' feinstein is very low key he is a tremendous anav and one that is very careful in his words. Just because he hasn't spoken publicly about it doesn't mean he has not said anything on the matter in private.
DeletePlease stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
You never looked into the facts and basing your opinions on what the apikorsim org. ora has said.
No many of them came to this wealth from taking money from their primitive unsuspecting followers.
ReplyDeleteWhen you provide documents that Rabbi Reuvein Feinstein is corrupt then i will listen to you. We already have a motive for kotler and proof from the Friedman case that Kamenetsky gets it wrong, especially when money is involved.
i am still awaiting you answer as to why someone who went to arko'oys is not chayav for the nitvah's legal fees. even the BDA disagree with you.
I go by what's right and factual not by what the ignorant masses say. According to your logic we should be chas ve shalam christian or fez muslim.
Tzaddok why don't you provide documentation for us that Ms Dodelson is the Defendant and not the Plaintiff in the divorce case if you are so right.
ReplyDeleteThere is no need for documents! Whatever Jeremy Stern says is nevuah! Stan, how do you expect him to get documents when he can't even get the names of the signators right?
DeleteTwo reasons:
DeletePrimarily because I trust the Gedolei HaDor that signed saying that Weiss abandonned his wife, and then obtained an illegitimate heter from an illegitimate B"D to go to Arkaot.
Secondarily I live in Israel so it is hard to obtain court documents, especially when I don't know which of New Jersey's 21 counties they were filed in.
so if you dont know the details maybe you shouldn't shoot your mouth off
DeleteAre you for real? How stupid and reckless can you be? You never looked into all of the documents. thank g-d you are not a dayan. How could you speak out without seeing all of the documents. How could speak against a grandson of r' reuven and cause people to be michshol without looking into all the facts. One day you will have to beg mechillah from reb reuven for causing him tzaar. Please stop saying this is not about reb reuvein because it is, this is his grandson and you are being mevazeh him and casuing a godol hador tzaar!!
DeleteAny paper that come out by Ora is worth nothing. If all those gedolim signed how come not one of them were at the protest or their respective yeshivahs?
http://matzav.com/rav-greenblatt-i-left-behind-26000-seforim-after-being-robbed-by-madoff
ReplyDeleteRabbi Michael TzadokJune 25, 2012 5:48 PM
ReplyDelete"In the meantime why don't you stop lying about what I said. You are severely misrepresenting my position, either maliciously or because you lack basic reading comprehension.
Oh and those seven sources don't outweigh the Shulhan Arukh, Rema, Sma, Shakh, Gra, and other Notei Kelim that I quoted. Have a nice day."
Please supply us with the exact places for your purported sources just like Rav Gestetner posted his sources. I have no doubt this is not at all what they say. According to you the Divrei Chaim of Sanz, the Maharik etc were all ignorant of the Shulchan Oruch, Rema etc
By the way the word is Nosei even in havara sefardit. Nota is to plant as in nota be'socheinu. But i was accused by Tzaddok previously of not knowing Hebrew.
A failure to do so will be clear sign that these are purely invented as usual.
Lying racist. I already answered this fully here regarding what is written in siman 388:5 regarding what the litigant believed was a valid; claim. You copied it over onto your identity theft blog here. I'm not going to discuss this with you here, as it has no bearing on what is being done by this illegitimate Beit Din.
ReplyDeleteFurther to that whatever is or is not between Rav Kotler and Rav Reuven Feinstein have not bearing on this either, as the situation is about Rav Reuven, its about Weiss.
Unless you can offer solid documentary proof that Rav Kamenetsky and Rav Wachtfogel have taken these supposed bribes and some B"D somewhere has ruled that they are possul Eidut/Rabbanut/Dayyanut because of it, it is pure Motzei Shem Ra.
The same with what you have said about Rav Green pointing to blogs and unofficial documents. Pure Motzei Shem Ra and absolutely baseless.
See Rav Shlomo Amar wrote a letter saying that Rav Gestetner's Beit Din was possul, and any Dayyan who would join with them would also henceforth be considered possul. Rav Green has written saying that Rav Gestetner's Beit Din was possul. Rav Yitzhak Meier Morgenshtern has written saying that his Beit Din was Possul.
You asked for a case where Rav Gestetner acted against Halakha. See the above Bitul Seruv. It is forbidden for a Beit Din to mevatel the ruling of another Beit Din. Let's start with the Gemarra Bava Batra 138b, see the Rashbam there D"H ומשני ב"ד Rambam Seder Olam Klal 10, Rosh Klal 85:5 Darkhei Moshe end of Siman 20. Shulhan Arukh Hoshem Mishpat Siman 20.
Talking about obfuscation. We have people who want to make this about several things:
ReplyDelete1) Rav Reuven Feinstein: It is not.
2) The proper interpretation of Hoshen Mishpat 388:5- it is not.
3) The Abuchatzeira family: it is not.
What this is about, and what none of the misogynists who are mevazeh important and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim in order to make a separate Torah for men and women.
What this is about is a Bitul Seruv that was written against Halakha that is meforash in the Mishnah, Gemarrah, Rishonim and Acharonim(here is a partial list of sources Gemarra Bava Batra 138b, see the Rashbam there D"H ומשני ב"ד Rambam Seder Olam Klal 10, Rosh Klal 85:5 Darkhei Moshe end of Siman 20. Shulhan Arukh Hoshen Mishpat Siman 20).
Read the fourth paragraph of the above "Bitul Seruv". Rav Gestetner(and since their are not other signatures affixed we have to assume he alone), has the absolute Chutzpah to declare nidui, on all of the Dayyanim of the Beit Din Mechon L'Hoyroa and the honorable and respected Rabbanim, Rav Kotler, Rav Greenblat, Rav Kamenetsky and Rav Wachtfogel. Not only does he declare a Nidui, but he says, "שאין להם חלק לעוב"ה ויורדין לגהינום ואינם עולים ואין להם כפרת עולמית" They have no place in the world to come, they will descend into hell and never arise, they will have no forgiveness forever.
No wonder they all want to obfuscate. Seriously? You want the world to take this supposed "bitul seruv", that was already written in flagrant violation of halakha, seriously with language like that aimed at important and well respected Chareidi Rabbanim? Yeah if I were trying to back that, I would try to make it about other non-issues as well.
Reply to Tzadok:
ReplyDelete"It is forbidden for a Beit Din to mevatel the ruling of another Beit Din. "
Tzadok is once again employing erroneous and obfuscating halachic claims in his desparate attempts to validate his position, instead of focusing on the facts of the divorce case being discussed.
One can receive a PDF file of the kuntress "Mishpatim Kechilchasam" by sending an email to pdf@sendfast.org with the number 5002 in the subject field.
In seman thirty of that kuntress many sources are brought which allow a Bais Din psak to be reviewed when errors are found, and which require one Bais Din to inform a Baal Din of errors committed by another Bais Din - Tur, Rosh, Pischei Tshuvah, Maharsham, Rashbah, etc.
Even those who hold by Baba Basra 138b (Bais Din basar bais din lo dayeki), allow an erroneous Bais Din ruling to be reviewed, due to the prevalence of Bais Din errors nowadays.
Nice try, Tzadok, but it won't fly.
Reply to Tzadok:
ReplyDelete"none of the misogynists", "racist"
Looks like Tzadok is getting mighty desperate by playing the race card and the gender card.
Tzadok's using the same techniques that Sharpie Al Sharpton and Jeremy Stern use - avoid logic and the facts, and instead whip up the mob using the race card and the gender card.
Correction:
ReplyDeleteI cited seman thirty of the kuntress "Mishpatim Kechilchasam" in my comment about how halacha allows one Bais Din may protest another Bais Din's errors.
The correct seman is 31, on page 45 of the kuntress.
One more point re: the Gemara statement "Bais Din basar bais din lo dayeki" (It is forbidden for a Beit Din to nullify the ruling of another Beit Din.)
ReplyDeleteThis Gemara can only refer to a situation where a litigant signed a shtar birurin (contract) and appeared before a Bais Din which issued the erroneous ruling. Since Mr. Weiss apparently never signed a shtar birurin with Machon L'Horoya, the Gemara statement cannot be applied at all in that case.
Therefore Tzadok has no justification for falsely applying that Gemara statement to the Weiss case.
I'm not sure how you would go about getting ahold of the documents, but AM Weiss filed for custody in March 2010, in Ocean County NJ.
ReplyDeleteYeah then there is that. The entire basis for the psak of the one man Beit Din known as Rav Gestetner is patently false. But don't let facts get in the way of trashing a Chareidi Beit Din and four highly respected Chareidi Gedolim.
Delete