While trying to decide the appropriate reaction to these letters, I received the following note from a major talmid chachom and posek. He is viewed in the Torah world as being Rav Feldman's clear superior in psak halacha and Torah knowledge. He has independently investigated the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter and has declared it worthless. This is his reaction to Rav Feldman's letter:
We are doomed.
May the good Lord have mercy on us.
I have searched and re-searched--I am looking for the bizayon haTorah.
There was bizayon haTorah here--but he's mixed up about who perpetrated it.
And to say that bizayon haTorah in this case is worse than aishes ish---
We are doomed,doomed,doomed.
nothing here
ReplyDeleteIs there something missing here?
ReplyDeleteSo do you retract your claim that it was a forgery?
ReplyDeleteso much for forged!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI think all commentators should take this letter to heart and tone down the rhetoric that is being referenced in RAF letter.
ReplyDeleteI think we can still keep this on the front burner of the velt just without talking
Iike a bunch of grubbe people.
Yes of course. It still is a sloppy, unclear letter without proper heading - in total contradiction to the first letter which was a model of clarity and reasoning. I have no idea why he wrote that confused jumble of words - but he did. His premise also is very problematic = but that is for another time.
ReplyDeleteFWIW he is also referring to Harry Maryles blog. The stuff in his comment section definitely qualifies as ืืืืื ืืชืืจื
ReplyDeleteactually, the letter from Rav Rackman ztl is also genuine. But since it is assur to communicate with the dead, I cannot reveal my sources for it.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't claiming al pi ruach hakodesh it was forged. Just that any fair mined person who is familiar with RAF would have assumed it's fake. He is very well spoken, well read and most of all we'll thought out. It looked forged.
ReplyDeleteI guess he was in a rush or he asked someone else to type it.
Rabbi Feldman deserves Klal Yisroel an apology.
ReplyDeleteIf not for the blogs this issue would have gone under the rugs. Unfortunately, in the United States the "leaders" are to the left of conventional torah derech.
When you call a spade a spade, that is the greatest Kovod Hatorah.
I know why these "Gedolim" don't like the internet---- BECAUSE IT UNCOVERS THEM!!!
I am sorry, but this is becoming a farce. It is like a drunken merry-go round of rumours, denials, and contradictions.
ReplyDeleteThe latest letter in letter "we're doomed" is allegedly written by a Gadol greater than RAF, who remains nameless. It is written in the prose of a college freshman, and gives us no indication of the greatness of the author.
Enough of the cloak- and dagger stuff, let us see official letters only, the rest is just unreliable whispers.
The premise that wanton and unjustifiable bizayon hatorah is worse than eishes ish? Or The premise that this is a case of wanton and unjustifiable bizayon hatorah?
ReplyDeleteI maintain that he wrote it under extreme pressure. It is pashut.
ReplyDeleteHe does verify the letter but it was indeed suspect until he did for the reason he explains. He makes it clear that his regret was for his use of email which allowed for its misuse. But he is clear now that he stands by his opposition to the "heter" which was not as clear in the suspect letter.
ReplyDeleteAnvesunoso shel....hechrivah as bateinu... Is the gemara which comes to mind rabbi Feldman comes across as an extremely refined person, and he will be used by the unscrupulous individuals promoting this scandal to the hilt , yes it's gotten a little heated but that's still not a reason for those who are looking for the slightest excuse to dismiss the criticism and let business go on as usual .
ReplyDeleteSome of his comments make me scratch my head how does email versus print enhanced any one's ability to post his letter online ? What Torah authorities is he referring to I know of none , and authority is someone people follow and someone who leaves I've seen scant leadership in this whole fiasco . where is the moetzes????? We are are the meetings of the" leading" authorities to deal with this issue???
And since when is allegedly bizayon hatorah worse then a eishes ish??? Is bizayon hatorah bemisas beis din.( am not belittling the sin but you have to put it in perspective)
both
ReplyDeleteSorry Eddie - I know what I know. If you don't trust what I say that is your problem
ReplyDeleteSo much for NIRC! What did anyone expect from them?
ReplyDeleteNo, I accept your eidut. But it is confusing to have a series of nameless letters, then retractions, etc etc. Why cannot Rav X produce a proper letter, like Rav Soloveitchik has done?
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, if he is greater than RAF, his opinion would be more widely accepted. If he thinks this situation is such a toevah, why is he frightened?
once again the point Rav Feldman is making is pretty simple.
ReplyDeleteThis issue is not for the hamon am to deal with rather for the gedolim to del with as they see fit. For random baale baatim to gripe about it on blogs accomplishes nothing but lessening the Kavod of Torah and its leaders.
All these rumors and theories are meaningless as most of you commentaters have no real clue whats going on behind closed doors or all the true details. An aside to The dear Rabbi Blogger,
when one says something that you want people to take as true its best not to hide behind annonamous rabbis you start to sound like many people who do things because the rabbi said it was ok. Whos the Rabbi? cant say. Loses credebility!
In Williamsburg they're saying ืืืข ืืืืืืืงืก ืืืื ืขื ืื ืืขืืืข
ReplyDeleteHe may have written the above letter, but.......
ReplyDelete1) although I was scratching my head how it's worse than aishes ish, he probably refers to the Gemara in Bava Metziah where they asked Dovid HaMelech what is the misah for someone who lives with a sofek aishes ish, he said that his misah is with chenek and he has a chelek in Olam Haba, but someone who is malbin p'nai chavairo - ain lo chelek l'olam haba.
2) NOW, RABBI FELDMAN, how on earth do you want this to be handled? And how was it handled without the Internet and before you wrote your letter? And what else are you doing to stop this? (Although possibly you are, although nothing seems to be moving right now). Could it be that you are being POLITICALLY CORRECT???? (Truthfully, that's what I thought when you wrote "The River, the Kettle and the Bird", where all ma'amoral Chazal took a contemporary "touch up"......)
To the readers , I wish to reiterate that at least 1) the Eidah HaChareidis, the 2) Hisachdus Harabbanim, 3) Rav Sternbuch ask that macha'os be made - without the concerns of diplomacy mentioned in Rav Feldmans' s
No, it is your problem - everybody should be required to provide verifiable sources.
ReplyDeleteI provide them when they are available. So no it is not my problem
ReplyDeleteI don't really care whether you find my statement credible.
ReplyDeleteYou might have noticed that if Rav Feldman's advice to keep the matters for big rabbis only - the issue would have been forgotten in a day or two.
Yes I have notice how the gedolim of the moetzes have taken the matter in hand and there really is no reason for any of us to lose sleep about the matter.
Bottom line, you are incredibly naive
I respect R Feldman very much but I don't understand why I can't have an explanation why this is worse than being matir an aishes ish.
ReplyDeleteRav Aharon, come on, a little gevirah, be brave, if you want and just push yourself to face them, they'll back off, you can do it!
ReplyDeleteWhat if your rebbe is Rav Feldman, are you to back off? Answer: did Pinchas back off when Moshe felt powerless against Zimri?
"Respectfully" disagreeing? ???? Ahem, ahem, ahem, maybe when the matzav is more under control.
I hope this won't get taken off: when a ChOSHUvA rosh yeshiva went to be Menachem avel the Lubavitcher Rebbe, I heard Rav Elya zt"l say (as is known that he had hisnagdus to Lubavitch), "in America we have concerns for darker sholom (no pun intended,)but we don't care about Avodah zoroh..... guess if we don't care for that, Kal vochomer for gilui arayos...... Wondering (not the first time) what he'll say if he were around. ......... G-d Help. .......................................
Discretion is the better part of courage
ReplyDeleteOy, Rabbosai, I already feel it coming on me. .....pontifications of hypocrisy.....okay, I take it back,we must stop protesting and I said nothing, whoever knows about the many letters will watch out from intermarrying their descendants and those who don't? Nu, nu H"Y
ReplyDeleteYeshiva Bochur, I am no longer stupid. .....although I sometimes wish I were. ....
ReplyDeleteRav Daniel has been around for a while with a good track record. Credibility accepted.
ReplyDeleteYour understanding. ...
ReplyDeleteYou mean the messy letter. ...to which the neater one is just a continuation of the original pressure. ...
ReplyDeleteThey should take an off Shabbos and see good people. ....
ReplyDeleteI guess we were naive to think that rav feldman as a member of an organization run by a college grad aka novominsker rebbe would be able to hold his own for kavod shamaim, the only thing left to do if for a fall ืืชืืืืืช from the yeshiva and agudah types who have stood by silently watching this disaster unfold, when a generation of mamzerim are born how will they deal with it!!!!
ReplyDeleteAs always the litvaks (sans brisk) lacked the forsight when these issues came up!!
What we have is the chasidish poskim, ridiculing the zekan roshei yeshiva in America, and so it should be
Where is the Moetzes? Pressuring Rav Feldman, I guess. ..
ReplyDeletedid your brother write the letter ?
ReplyDelete-I protest for the honor of Rabbi Feldman. I know him personally and he is a righteous man who spends his entire day being moser nefesh the Jewish people. His only desire is to serve G-d to the fullest.
ReplyDelete-Rabbi Eidensohn, you falsely asserted that the letter was a forgery. What other facts have you misrepresented to your readers?
-Why must you resort to ad hominem attacks? Why do you provide a forum for others to do the same?
-Iprotest for the honor of Rabbi Feldman. I know him personally and he is a
ReplyDeleterighteous man who spends his entire day being moser nefesh for the Jewish people. His only desire is to serve G-d to the fullest.
-Rabbi Eidensohn, you falsely asserted that the letter was a forgery.
What other facts have you misrepresented to your readers?
-Why must you resort to ad hominem attacks? Why do you
provide a forum for others to do the same?
-I protest for the honor of Rabbi Feldman. I know him personally and he is a
ReplyDeleterighteous man who spends his entire day being moser nefesh the Jewish people.
His only desire is to serve G-d to the fullest.
-Rabbi Eidensohn, you falsely asserted that the letter was a forgery.
What other facts have you misrepresented to your readers?
-Why must you resort to ad hominem attacks? Why do you
provide a forum for others to do the same?
The Gemara says clearly that for the sin of eishes ish one is chayav misah through Chenek but he has a share in Olam Habah. The Gemara also says that for the sin of Bizayon Hatorah one loses his chelek in Olam Haboh. In fact all the sins for which one loses his Olam Habah fit into the Pasuk "Ki Dvar Hashem Bozoh..." according to the Gemara. When the blogger wrote 4 hours ago that "The premise that wanton and unjustifiable bizayon hatorah is worse than eishes ish is problematic" he is once again showing off his ignorance.
ReplyDeletehttp://protestinhonorofrabbiaharonfeldman.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteIMHO here is the problem: if you can't give the name, for whatever valid reason you may have, then the statement carries no weight, and it actually makes it look like someone doesn't have the necessary courage and/or authority to make a statement of that kind
ReplyDeleteSilly me.
ReplyDeleteAnd I thought aishes ish was in the Torah.
And I thought that all of us have to be mevateil our da'as to the Torah, not the other way around.
Interesting that Rav Feldman objects to airing these things out on public media when he was the founder of the EY English Language Yated, which following the guidelines of the hebrew version, attacked without mercy, and on the most personal level, Rabbonim with whom they disagreed (Tzioni, Modern Orthodox, YU).
ReplyDeleteI guess the difference here is that the Rav being attacked is a member of the Gold Ol' Boyz Club, so the tactics and strategies used against non-good-ol'-boyz are unacceptable.
"lacking a basic lack of understanding"?
ReplyDeleteI should hope so.
He feels that the way in which it was publicised caused a great Chilul Hashem, which is a worse Aveira than Eishes Ish.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that the sloppy, unclear letter is his own and the model of clarity letter was done for him?
ReplyDeleteDHI, I do not respect Rabbi Feldman.
ReplyDeleteyou all are worried about which aveira is worse? This is all nonesense. what do i care how rabbi Feldman feels today? I have countless other letters from Gedolim who are not chicken and dont backout of their PSAk. I am sorry but i cant stand people who backoff under pressure. .Is rabbi feldman worried about all the men like Aharon Friedman and others that have been humiliated in public?The Torah explicitly states In a place of Chilul Hashem You dont worry about ones kovod! Clearly enough respectable Rabbonim oppose this breach in Halacha committed by Kamenetsky and Greenblatt and therefore when something of this magnitude occurs we dont worry about Kovod. The Kaminetskys had ample time to refute the claims made against them but did not.. Additionally Shmuel Kamenetsky never came out with a letter pro or against what his son did, therefore where one remains silent, he automatically is supportive of the Heter and therefore he is equally guilty for this act.
ReplyDeleteYour answer is telling!
ReplyDeleteIt says that the dor of mashiach is going to be bnei hador kpnei hakelev the famous pshat is the leaders will alwayse be looking back to see if the peolpe are following like a dog looks back to see if its master is following. Seems like thats what you want are gedolim to do! look over to see if the hamon am agrees with them otherwise change there psakim and opinions. The Gedolim need to do as they see fit weither or not you agree!
As a mechanech of bachurim at risk they dont care about the tamar epstein problem what kills emunah is when we tear down our gedolim!
Look at your own poll seems like peolpe agree!
IMPORTANT NEWS-
ReplyDeleteThe Noveminsker Rebbe has issued a strong condemnation on an old YouTube video that has caused damage to Judaism. We hope that the complete Moetzes will join to condemn this video. We also hope that this Sunday, an Agudah spokesman and Secretary of State will be scheduled to be on five talk shows to speak about the video and its results. Rabbi M. is not deserving of a pass.
Not true! an email was sent to RAF asking him if its a forgery since there are accusations being made that the Kamenetskys orchestrated this forgery.and he responded with this letter no pressure no arm twisting. The person that sent it never spoke to RAF. You can maintain whatever you want but remember his regret and end statement was directed to people like you that wont except the fact that this way of doing things are wrong
ReplyDeleteHe didn't say a great gadol, he said greater in psak halachah.
ReplyDeleteUse your head a little. It's not difficult to figure out who this poseik must be.
ReplyDeletewhere is the moetzes?
ReplyDeleteDealing with an irresponsible YouTube video.
and therefore anytime a gadol refuses to acknowledge he made a mistake regarding a severe Torah sin - we should forget about it rather than cause public awareness of the mistake?! Even if it means many additional Jews with violate this sin thinking that it has been approved by a gadol?!
ReplyDeleteI think what Rav Feldman Shlita means is that the aveyra of bizayon hatorah by irresponsible individuals and blogs is greater than the aveyra of not being moiche in the face of a chashash eishes ish.
ReplyDeleteprotest all you want. My saying the letter was a forgery is a conclusion most intelligent people made concerning the confused and incoherent content of the letter which does not reflect well on its author. If you think the letter and its content is a kavod for Rav Feldman - you are severely mistaken.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Rav Feldman does many nice things is no excuse for doing something harmful. The same can be said about Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and Rav Greenblatt.
no
ReplyDeleteTo the readers, I wish to reiterate that 1) the Eidah HaChareidis, the 2) Hisachdus Harabbanim, 3) Rav Sternbuch are in no manner part of the mainsteam Litvish yeshiva community, and those in that community should be seeking guidance from the leaders of the community they are in. If you are Satmar and commenting here, by all means continue your macha'os.
ReplyDeleteyes you should continue following the enlightened leadership of the Moetzes and close your eyes to reality. After all if I don't know about something it can't hurt me - right?
ReplyDeleteNo. Rav Feldman has written books and is an excellent writer.
ReplyDeleteYou mean we should sound more like Rav Avram Yehoshua?
ReplyDeleteclose your eyes to reality.
ReplyDeleteHow dare you say that? They do have their eyes open and are busy condemning with irresponsible, unknown, YouTube videos.
Face it, you lost. While the Moetzes gedolim are trying to resolve this issues away from the public eye and have not called on anyone to raise the ruckus that you are raising, you continue in your efforts. As always, when a gadol says something that you agree with, you praise it to the sky. When the same gadol refers to you using the phrase "irresponsible individuals and blogs" and accuses you of creating "a wanton and unjustifiable bizayon haTorah," all of the sudden he is not so great anymore. You are left with the Satmar/Edah crowd backing you, and nobody else. [Again, not with regard to the pesak, but with regard to your approach as to how to handle it]. Even in the poll on your own blog, more people have voted for this blog as the biggest of the four problems in this saga.
ReplyDeletevaliant effort to smear me - but you are misrepresenting what is going on as well as incorrectly describing what I am doing. As I said before - this is not about me - but about the Torah leadership. Rav Feldman clearly has lost something after writing the original protest letter.
ReplyDeleteI am not smearing you, unless you are smearing yourself. I cited from a letter that you published on your own blog.
ReplyDeleteThe question is whether the other Gedolim could have been told about the problem without using a medium which reaches everybody. Many people come out with the impression that ืืก ืืฉืืื Gedolim must be terrible people who distort the Torah for their own purposes. It also provides fodder for those who wish to denigrate Rabbanim. This could have all been avoided by taking the problem directly to the Poskim and Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteI wrote this comment before the letter had been posted, and nly the title existed. But I don't want to delete it, because that would render your amazing comment unintelligible...
ReplyDeleteYes - even a ืืืื Eishes Ish.
ReplyDeleteI know somebody called RaP - who is also unhinged and likes to denigrate Gedolim - who you'd probably get along with.
ReplyDeleteIm pretty sure I didnt say that...
ReplyDeletebut if you know/learned in brisk you would actually think this is pretty toned down
you are mistaken - it was originally dealt with privately - but nothing resulted from the behind closed doors approach
ReplyDeleteDuring this past summer, many Rabonim - including Rav Feldman and the Baltimore Beis Din - attempted to deal with this quietly. They stonewalled. Rav Shmuel did write a letter that he was not the matir (yet he completely refused to stop the "marriage" from proceeding). No, RSK did not proposed going to Rav Dovid F. to settle it. No, he was not interested in what Rav Dovid would pasken.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the kesher between Rav Feldman and Rav Malinowitz by the Four Seminaries issue, were they on the same side or on opposing sides ?
ReplyDeleteHaven't we read on this blog that R'Dovid told R SKjr, that I would NOT have done it!
ReplyDeleteI think there is a gemarah , let a thousand like shlomo hamelach be botel, but one letter in the torah cannot be botel. is there a gemarah that a letter in the torah can be uprooted but the name of heaven cannot be desecrated publicly?
ReplyDeleteAnd how many times did YOU vote under different names, Mr. Yisro? It is quite obvious that there is something wrong with that letter as for the means of this Protest, full of spelling and grammar mistakes and NUSACH, and lo bechinam. I would dare say that all this WAS written by another individual, and R'AF was under DURESS, possibly even blackmail, only time will tell. We need some clarification on that yet about the CATALYST, and who that might have been. In any case, THE NEVALA BE"EINO OMEDES, with differing only in the presentation supported by most Poskim beyeser se'es uvyeser oz. Indeed, this approach has been after many pleas to them to RETRACT to no avail. In the meantime, I will patiently stand by as to who the author actually drafting up this letter including those gross mistakes. Now back to the IKAR, the main dish.
ReplyDeleteWe have asked the same questions from these ba'alei machshir of this NEVOLO, mi vomi haholchim. In any case, what is a yeshiva bochur doin on the Internet?
ReplyDeleteFigures lie, and liars are figuring. How many times did Yisro vote? As for being a mechanech let teach you a thing or two. What Kills Emunah is, when so called Gedolim say, Do as I tell you, and don't do as I do.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they are YORED LECHAYOV. Look what they have done to AF and all other victims of ORA, did X, Y, or Z even blink an eye? In any case, at most these side issues are distractions from the MAIN AGENDA.
ReplyDeleteYeshiva of Philly?
ReplyDeleteRav Shternbuch begs to Differ. Vaya'aviru kol bamachneh
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree with you more! There is no way in the world that RAF has not thought about it before. Duress and extreme pressure might be the cause. Let's wait n see.
ReplyDeletethat is exactly the point that I made. Where you have a chilul hashem as we do here that rabbis permit adultery, it is the job of every jew to protest this breach and ostracize the culprits.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, if you recall, Yisro's advice was then accepted and confirmed by God, so I will take that moniker as a compliment. As to your question, I voted once. While your unique style of writing makes comprehension somewhat difficult, I understand that you are unwilling to accept the straightforward fact that R' Feldman believes that much of what goes on here constitutes "a wanton and unjustifiable bizayon haTorah," and have resorted to hatching all sorts of plot-twists worthy of a spy novel to retain your cognitive dissonance. Well, good luck with that.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the compliment, Chaim. Don't worry, I wouldn't take it to heart (and also appreciate the use of humor in approaching difficult situations), I think the main thing here, is that all posts are compared to side by side, with people being able to make an intelligent decision (providing they didn't make up their mind yet), notwithstanding who had the last word.
ReplyDeleteMaybe i wasn't talking just about this letter, but about the lovely way he chooses to express himself in general, all to the cheers of tomorrow's mechanchim and yungerleit.
ReplyDeleteAre you seriously claiming that all the Gedolim - including your Rebbe, Rav Sternbuch ืฉืืื"ื - were approached privately but refused to condemn the Heter, until you (and others) publicised it?
ReplyDeleteThere are greater and more authoritative Poskim who could have been approached, before taking the matter to the broader public!
ReplyDeleteNathan, see you woke up and smelled the coffee.
ReplyDeleteThere is a letter somewhere online from Rabbi Feldman to the English Yated telling them to be less strident!
ReplyDeletesure - except they didn't want to get involved
ReplyDeleteWas it Rabbi Malinowitch?
ReplyDeleteWell RAF who until a day ago was the poster boy of this blog says if the result is that we have a blog where 55000 views this week alone allows anyone to make false accusations insults and slanderous statements without any repercussions that it is worse then forgetting it. Hard pill for some to swallow but there were many aveirois that caused the Churban bais hamikdash but the sins chinoim is what did us in. I am sure they had znus back then as well but that isn't mentioned as a cause.
ReplyDeleteyes
ReplyDeletehe has written a new one :)
ReplyDeleteThere are sometimes cases which are not eilu v'eilu, but still have a valid basis in Mesorah. I am not saying this case is one of them, however, it is an interesting angle to look at.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, we see that Akavyah ben Mehalelel was a Gaon and Tzaddik, that the Mishna says there was noone like him who entered the Temple courtyard. His dispute was based on a true mesorah he had from a majority. Yet he was put in herem and his coffin was stoned.
On the other hand, Bet Hillel vs. bet Shammai, which was supposed to be true eilu v'eilu, ended up in the violent "occupation" of the sanhedrin by beit shammai, and bloodshed, which the Gemara likens to the golden calf.
Sometimes the lines between true machloket and falsification of the halacha are not so clear.
It would seem from the fact that Rabbi Feldman suggests that email was the cause of it getting it on the blogs , that he doesn't know much about the Internet , something very probable due to his diligence of Torah study and his age , which would suggest that his information concerning the blogs was fed to him possibly by the same people were soliciting a support letter for the k's. oh well , so they did have some success
ReplyDeleteAnd second of all, he added parshas "veato Sechze", but you cannot see! I dare challenge you on your nick. You do have difficulty with comprehension, since you don't see the obvious differences in the two letters by RAF. Besides, where was he when he initially protested. You read too much Matta Haris. Indeed, it is a slippery slope going to H... in a hand basket. Good luck Lieutenant. BTW, did you fathom R' Sternbuch vesiyato about the mechoeh? We are talking about people with a spine, people of Caliber as enumerated in parshas "Veato Sechze". So much for cognitive dissonance.
ReplyDeleteIf you refuse to close your eyes, hold on to the arms of the Moetzes. They will close their eyes for you. ....
ReplyDeleteLike I said, you don't have to be Litvish to be mainstream. And is Rav Shlomo Miller not mainstream? Although I am not necessarily comparing the two, I saw lines of people waiting to talk to him after davening with shaylos......with people standing by ready with a notebook - both nekudos i have exactly seen by Rav Elyashiv!
ReplyDeletepresumably
ReplyDeleteWhile the Moetzes gedolim are trying to resolve this issues away from the public eye
ReplyDeleteUh huh, sure. As in under the rug.
That was the second Bais Hamikdash. The first was AZ, gilui arayos and shefichas damim. You can look it up.
ReplyDeletePlease indicate where R' Miller said that public protests should be made against those supporting the hetter.
ReplyDeleteR' Feldman was bamboozled and lied to by Gottesman and by Rabbis Fuerst, Cohen and Schwartz in the seminary story. These great askanim and mokirei Torah played him for a fool. 'Nuff said.
ReplyDeleteIndeed
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, in this case it isn't just the ืืืื ืขื scratching their heads about this scandal. It's ืืืืื ืืคืืกืงืื saying that ื ืืื ื ืขืฉืชื ืืืฉืจืื. That's not ืคื ื ืืืืจ ืืคื ื ืืืื. It's the ืขืื ื ืืขืื who are advising us when they see corruption of the Torah.
ReplyDeleteYou claim to deal with bachurim at risk, whose problems with ืืืื ื are exacerbated when we tear down gedolim. I maintain that bachurim at risk are more likely going OTD when supposedly great men are involved in petty ืืืืืงืช, or when they see examples of ืงื ืื ืชืืื ืืืืื by people who are supposed to above these things.
These young men aren't stupid. In fact they're quite astute.
They see through all these types of shenanigans, and it ain't pretty. This in
fact is a big turn off for them. Your covering up for those deserving of
criticism, isn't the solution. In the long run, it's actually worse for them,
because you're trying to defend the indefensible, and they know it. Then you
lose your influence over them, because they're going to view as just another
one of the lackeys drinking the same Kool-Aid as the rest of the masses.
Yisro had seven names, so he got to vote seven times!
ReplyDeleteืืืืืื ืืืื
ืื ืขืก ืืื ืืืื, ืฉืจืืื ืืขื
ReplyDeleteIs Rav Malinowitch considered greater than RAF?
ReplyDeleteSo you are not just opposed to RSK - you are opposed to ALL the Gedolim, who refused to remedy this wrongdoing until you took it public. Are you and your brothers the only Tzadikim in this generation? Where were all the prominent Poskim - "greater than RAF" before all this broke out? Something is very off.
ReplyDeleteYou can have the last word.
ReplyDeleteAs a bona fide litvak, can I suggest perhaps, that the leaders in the Yeshiva world in the United States have basically given up on halacha??
ReplyDeleteCan one say, that halacha by these leaders is just not on the bus or at best on back of the bus?
Have they substituted "KOVOD HATORAH", "DAAS TORAH" "GADOL B"YISROEL", and many other adjectives to protect themselves??
To me it seems that there is a very limited mesorah among the Lithuanian Torah world in the United States. The leaders of the American Torah Jewry today would have been those children that ended up in Auschwitz etc.
Seemingly, with the lack of those leaders we have many "GADOL" wannabes to take their place.
Added to this, is the vast amount of money that Roshei Yeshiva like Rabbi Malkiel Kotler must raise, which inhibits these Roshei Yeshiva from giving forth and advocating for true halacha. They are held hostage to Baalei Batim like Shimmy Glick and the like.
I would surmise that on the most part, the notion of a true "litvishe" Rov is a thing of the past.
The good think is that Klal Yisroel is never fooled; and will get itself out of this mess.
The question are, how long will it take, what percentages will be lost, and at what price???
What is taking place now is that the propriety of this blog has become the issue receiving attention now, which is distracting from the travesty of the heter and the lies and corruption that led to it.
ReplyDeleteIt is a brilliant deflection strategy, to be sure...
Good answer The golus after the first Beis Hamikdash last how long compared to the second one? Any kid in cheder would tell you that he was taught the aveirah of the second was worse then the first. RAF point exactly.
ReplyDeleteRav Feldman has no basis for his claim as Rav Malinowitz and others have pointed out.
ReplyDeleteyes it is "brillliant" but fools no one of significance except perhaps for Rav Feldman. At the same time it makes the rabbonim furious to see the lack of seriousness that this issues is being dealt with by the Kaminetskys and Greenblatt. The day of reckoning is coming soon and to keep saying that the problem is the blog - simply will not help them or Tamar
ReplyDeleteLooking the other way when avairos were being done, was also a cause for the churban.......
ReplyDeleteOne important question - how much of a yad does Shimmy Glick have in the deafening silence here?
ReplyDeleteYou have to ask Daas Torah - pun intended.
ReplyDeleteHe is a mechutan with the Epsteins. A child of his married a sibling of Tamar Epstein-Friedman-Fleischer
ReplyDeletea) Sinas chinam is not yehareig v'al yaavor.
ReplyDeleteb) This is not sinas chinam, for two reasons: 1) It's not a matter of sinah, it's a matter of sin. Specifically, protesting one. No one is calling for or practicing hatred. That's just a red herring you're dragging around to make people feel guilty. 2) Even if there was hatred, which there is not, it would not be b'chinam. "Chinam" implies for no reason. Here there is a very good reason.
I was aware of that fact. But that did not answer my question...
ReplyDeleteYes it's a bizayon hatorah!
ReplyDeleteIt's a bizayon hatorah that those who carry the Torah flag have lost the moral high ground to criticize any other stream in Judaism whether it's MO OO YU conservative or reform , or to request that they criticize their own .
It's a bizayon hatorah that someone who can permit a woman to commit a most grave sin can continue to teach Torah to sons of B'nai Torah.
It's a bizayon hatorah that alumni of Philly don't have the least amount of basic decency and continue to stand behind their "party" notwithstanding the gravity of this perversion of the Torah.
It's a bizayon hatorah that Moetzes gedolei Hatorah a institution created to uphold the Torah have met this crisis with a deafening silence .
It's a bizayon hatorah, that the official Torah press, which was created to uphold and fight for the Torah has totally ignored this crisis .
It's a bizayon hatorah that set of kavod hatorah been so perverted and created a environment that the leaders can be totally morally bankrupt and have no need to answer to anyone .
Torah Torah chigri sak vehispalshi beafarim.
Nishboh Aroin Elokim. The Torah has been hijacked. Something is arye. This sudden change of heart needs an explanation. This sounds like The Philidelphia Experiment and we must get to the bottom of it, and should definitely not be overlooked dismissed so lightly. There is nothing here that R' AF did not know before. Can someone have him talk and discuss what's happening here. The letters indicate of as being a hostage.
ReplyDeleteOne item is known, that the "ืืฆืจ" of HaRav Ahron Leib Shteinman ืฉืืื"ื did not allow HaRav Shteinman to sign the ืงืื ืงืืจื that the rest of the Gedolim of ืื ื ืืจืง signed----- for fear of the repercussions of Mr. Shimmy Glick.
ReplyDeleteDid Shimmy Glick take an actual position on Tamar Friedman-Epstein-Fleischer?
I assume the Kamenetskys, Kotlers and Feldmans know.
You keep on repeating yourself.
ReplyDeleteIt's a bizayon hatorah, that the official Torah press, which was created to uphold and fight for the Torah has totally ignored this crisis .
ReplyDeleteIt's worse than that, it's worse than that.
Even if we grant that Bizayon Hatorah is somehow worse than Asihes Ish, that is not the question at hand.
ReplyDeleteNobody, presumably even the Kaminetzky's are claiming that Asihes Ish is allowable. They would be horrified at the suggestion.
The crime they are being accused of is one of Bizayon Hatorah- the perversion of Torah, the perversion and distortion of Halacha, the destruction of Kiddushin Al Pi Torah, the complete nullification of Halchic responsibility and of Beis Din.
The perversion of "Daas Torah" and destruction of Emunas Chachamim.
That is what they are being called to task for.
The fact that it is with regard to Aishes Ish is simply the cherry on bottom.
Those, such as Rabbi E, who are declaiming against them are thus protecting the Kovod Hatorah and preventing its further debasement.
To claim that this is a matter of "Bizayon Hatorah" vs "Aishes Ish" is simply false.
It is Bizayon Hatorah (by the Kaminetzkys) vs Kovod Hatorah (by the protesters).
In fact, the faster people realize that the K's are not representative of Kovod Hatorah, the faster the Bizayon Hatorah will be alleviated.
Stopping the public discussion, as today's iteration of RAF seems to wish for, will simply increase the Bizayon Hatorah, not prevent it.
What happened to the letter from Philly talmidim that was posted for a short moment?
ReplyDeleteIf it was proven to you that R' Miller said that public protests should be made against those supporting the hetter, you would change your perspective? If not, what's the point of citing proof?
ReplyDeleteLOCK N :LOAD
ReplyDeleteI imagine the whole yeshiva rofl has casted their votes. I believe that these forthcoming letters are bluff, just as they first tried on Rabbi Miller. Then came the first trial baloon on RAF, they then did some improvement by drafting up a cleaner version. But here is the million dollar question, can RAF send out a full blown explanation directly to the public of his true stance. Aren't we now AFTER all the decisions and Psokim from the Elite and they still revolt, why not protest LOUD AND CLEAR. It is only kvod haTorah to scream on the top of our lungs. These are more forgeries trying to stall for more Shamtas. LOCK N LOAD!!!
1. where's your episode about B Shamai?
ReplyDelete2. we find in the mishnah eduyos 3:5 that being that there was no one as great as ABM then certainly he wasn't put into cherem. only the other view says that he was put into cherem.
Very amusing to hear that from a talmid of Rav Shach.
ReplyDeleteI learn with someone who helped to publish the Juggler and the King, as well as other writings by Rabbi Feldman. He told me that Emanuel Feldman is his brothers' ghostwriter.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't sure how much input he had into the concepts discussed in the books, but he remembers clearly that Emanuel was the writer and all editorial correspondence was with him.
That may explain why these letters are poorly written. It's RAF writing, not his brother.
We saw a similar thing with the Gottesman/ CBD scandal last year, where Rabbi Feldman wrote some letters that were unbelievably incoherent. I thought at the time that he may be losing it , as did others, but it may just be that he was never that great a writer.
Your mockery aside, I have managed to locate the article, for those who are interested:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.chareidi.org/archives5759/bo/yated.htm
Assisted by someone who lived in Kiryat Sefer,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the link.
ReplyDeleteRav Feldman's objection was strategic, that the style would be off-putting to American readers not used to the legitimately combative tone of the hebrew original.
The Hebrew Yated echoed Rav Shach's style and expressed itself in a way that Rav Shach approved of, Rav Feldman felt its "combative" tone was appropriate, but not for sensitive Americans.
In other words, the personal attacks, ugly tone, and vicious rhetoric were legitimate, but just not for the American palate.
My comment stands.