Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Rav Avigdor Miller on the Divorce Epidemic

class #646, Mind of Control, 1:23:45

When the great dread day [death] comes, when finally Hashem says you are free, you are absolved, does the neshama feel relief, does the neshama celebrate that it's all over? Oh no. It's the yom hamara, the great and bitter day. Because our happiness in life is the duty of being in control. Ta'avah ni'hiya, when a desire is broken, is repressed, te'erav le-nefesh, [Mishlei 13:10] how sweet it is for the soul.

Disappointments when you accept that in good will, that's a great success for you. Success doesn't mean anything. Anybody can rejoice with success. When a person who keeps his mind calm even in disappointment, that's the person who is gaining shelmaius. And that's why HaKodesh Baruch Hu created us.

Life is full of disappointments. It's full of joys. If there are joys and successes we have to celebrate by thanking Hashem. Certainly we should [also] be grateful and express our gratitude for all the difficulties of life.

Here's a woman who had seven children with her husband. Then she put her eyes on a strange man. And she fell in love with a strange man. This mishugenah woman decides that she's unhappy with her husband. Now later she gets over this infatuation with this strange man. He goes away and moves out of the neighborhood. Now she's disillusioned with her husband. A woman with seven children. She lived like a Jewish woman until now.

But she has deep down in her heart gentile attitudes, attitudes maybe there's such a thing as romance yet in life. That's a gentile attitude. And she feels unhappy. And the husband is a hum drum husband, an ordinary decent Jewish husband. Maybe a handsome man too. But still you're accustomed to him already. He's too accustomed to be romantic anymore. And so she starts becoming dissatisfied. You know what she's doing? She's ruining her neshama.

Of course she's not going to commit adultery. She's going to force him to give her a get. She's going to break away from him and she'll look for somebody else to marry. She'll be disappointed. No question. The second time will be worse than the first time. No question.

But the breaking away, that's a corruption of the soul. Your perfection is to take what Hashem gave you (.... ) Cling to Hashem all the days of your life. V'dovak b'ishto. Control yourself. Squelch the imaginary romances that you think are waiting for you in life. It's all false. Make up your mind that what you have is what's good for you and people who live that way into their old age. No romance. Just live dutifully, live loyally, loyal to Hashem Who gave this to you. And don't be a nirgon, don't complain.

How long is life after all? The great day will come when you will finally be relieved then you'll say, ah now I look back and see how fortunate I was, I was loyal to my husband all these years. I didn't complain. I bore my burden dutifully as a bas Yisroel what HaKodesh Baruch Hu wanted me to do.

[1:27:36] Unfortunately today there's a rash of divorces and in most cases it's Jewish women.  Even the frum Jewish women are demanding divorces from their husbands, all over, everywhere. It's an epidemic and a tragedy of tragedies. They are ruining their lives, but most of all they are ruining their neshamas.

People are not willing to make peace with their circumstances. Say I'm going to live the best I can with the circumstances that Hashem gave me. These are the people who are going to succeed and they are achieving what's called shlaimus of parishas haratzon. They are conquering their passions. They are ruling with their minds over their emotions. And that is the greatest perfection.

See if you can do it with yiras shemayim, with fear of Hashem, very good. Even if not, any which way you succeed in living dutifully and accepting what Hashem gave you, you are successful and you live your life with a grand purpose.

112 comments :

  1. RDE, what prompted this post today? Who transcribed Rav Miller? I also saw this same shiur posted elsewhere on the web today, is this coincidence?

    ReplyDelete
  2. So... men have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever? They just have the right to treat their wives as ---- and that's it. She must accept it.

    Wow! This article is so wrong.

    Replace the word 'romance' for 'attention' and you'll find the real problem here.

    Women are not seeking irresponsible romances, they're seeking a confirmation of their own self-value that could be helped if their husbands appreciated them with words and small actions. Accepting to be NEGLECTED and keeping silent about it is just a sick concept.

    I have a book, 'Our Family, Our Strength' and 2 stories there could be way more helpful in reinforcing Jewish marriages than the absurds I read above. The first is about this rabbi who took his wife to the doctor and said "her feet hurt US"... the second is about this other rabbi who every single morning prepared tea to his wife to the amazement of his guest. The guest thought she was sick, but no... the rabbi just enjoyed prepare the tea and take it to his wife every morning.

    When was the last time "divorced men" prepared tea (or did any small gesture of appreciation) for their wives? I'm not talking about jewelry, I'm talking about gestures.

    When was the last time they felt their wives pain as if they were their own?

    That's my point. It's not romance that is lacking, it's attention. Just normal attention.

    A guy can't marry a girl who was always treated as a precious pearl by her parents and community, neglect her sense of self, crush her personality and expect that it will work.

    In general, men and women who want to "jump out" their marriages are not looking to love someone else, they're just thinking in confirming their own self value. Nobody that I ever spoke with about these matters ever said "Ah... I would like to divorce my husband to make someone else happy"... nope... what most people tell me is "I want to divorce to FEEL BETTER, to find happiness"... that's it.

    People want to feel better and there are 2 ways to deal with it: accept the neglect, as the article above indicates... which will bring damage to the mind and behavior (oh yes... people always take their frustration somewhere: self destructing actions, eating disorders, suicidal thoughts, insomnia that leads to dementia later in life etc, etc, etc) or start to advice the men to appreciate their wives with gestures... actions... and words. I say 'men' because by reading the article, they're described as the 'poor little things'.

    If husbands (and wives) appreciate one another enough, the divorce rate will not disappear, but it will drop considerably.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I would think the first woman's husband is partially to blame by not creating romance in the marriage and creating a lacuna in her life. If you don't like the word romance, call it what the Chazon Ish speaks about - a wife's feeling that she is special to her husband. Rav Miller's portrayal of marriage is absolutely bleak.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I also do not buy Rav Miller's assertion that romance is an illusion. On the contrary, I consider it an important facet of what makes us human. The difference between man and animal is man disposition to imbue physical necessities with intellectual richness. The instinct to eat edible food is transformed into a desire for well cooked and tastefully presented meals, admiration for a pack leader becomes passionate politics, instinctive song and dance become symphonies and ballets, and reproduction is imbued with romance. These things make us human beings.

    ReplyDelete
  5. By clinging to spirituality a person can rise above human norms, but woe betide the person who rejects human norms before reaching such levels.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Too many of us have replaced the Torah's idea of marriage with the American idea of marriage. This is what Rav Miller zt'l correctly identified and speaks of.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Wow, do I like what Rabbi Miller writes! “And she feels unhappy. And the husband is a hum drum husband, an ordinary decent Jewish husband. Maybe a handsome man too. But still you're accustomed to him already. He's too accustomed to be romantic anymore. And so she starts becoming dissatisfied. You know what she's doing? She's ruining her neshama.”

    What’s an ordinary decent Jewish husband to do with an unhappy wife?? I quote Ester 10:3 “For Mordecai the Jew ranked next to King Ahasuerus and was highly regarded by the Jews and popular with the multitude of his brethren; he sought the good of his people and interceded for the welfare of all his kindred.”

    The ordinary decent Jewish husband must do for his wife, even if she’s unhappy, as Modercai did for the Jewish people,: always seek her good and always intercede for her welfare.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Shir Hashirim was based on the American love ideal.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Good Purim satire.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Romance has no intellectual richness. It's just getting drunk on fantasies. R' Miller certainly advocates a life of intellectual richness, but that has more to seeing Hashem's hand in life than a candlelit dinner that costs you $200.

    ReplyDelete
  11. He is not portraying the ideal marriage. He's not excusing the husband. He's saying if you have a hum drum spouse, you can still find happiness in the joys of a basic frum existence and attachment to Hashem. He's saying divorce doesn't improve anything. Rather it ruins even the basic frum existence and attachment to Hashem, which is the greatest joy.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Wow. What a disgusting post.
    Perhaps, instead of blaming women, you should blame the fact that religious men are being brought up thinking that women are sex objects that must be hidden from sight. That they are not people you can talk to or socialise with. You can't even look at pictures of women to appreciate their beauty. They are objects of lust that must be kept far away. - That is until you need them to go bring money into the house; but then they should not earn too much because that might make the man feel inferior.

    As long as boys are indoctrinated that women are different and evil, they will never know how to relate to them and divorces will just go up.

    Blaming it solely on the women themselves is just blind and stupid.

    And to say that a divorce ruins their neshama? Says who? How can you make such a claim?
    Live a life loyal to Hashem? Since when does loyalty include unhappiness? Where in the Torah does it say to be unhappy? In fact it says the opposite! Serve Hashem with joy! If you are in a unhappy marriage how can you do that - in fact, you should get a divorce!

    Don't complain? Is this guy for real? This rabbi's attitude towards women is exactly why there are so many divorces. He and the rabbis like him are the cause. Not the women. Disgusting.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Romance doesn't need $200. A nice word or touch cost nothing, a bunch of flowers perhaps $2.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Is one's wife a fantasy? I hope not.

    ReplyDelete
  15. They wouldn't be unhappy if they lived a more proper life. That's the point. The unhappiness is manufactured, a result of fantasy thinking.

    You have been completely brainwashed by feminism. You don't even see it. It's fascinating. Right now you're playing the defender of women role. R' Miller is not attacking women in general. He praises good frum women all the time. What he's criticizing are the divorce mongers. I know numerous women like this, women who trashed decent marriages and ruined everybody's lives. Should he praise them? Is it your view that every divorce is the man's fault? Then you're a sexist of a different color. Somehow, that's acceptable to you.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Why don't you try to listen and learn something, rather than shooting off your mouth with the childish moral outrage? He's not blaming all women. He's criticizing women who divorce in cases that don't need divorce. Today we have a rash of divorces and women are instigating most of them. What's your explanation? What's your solution? Divorce ruins children and it even ruins the women. I just had one over for Purim. Divorce didn't help her life at all. Divorce is an out for really bad cases, not cases that aren't romantically wonderful. That's his point. If you are going to fllip out any time anybody tries to explain to you the realities of life, you are never going to get anywhere in life.

    ReplyDelete
  17. HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller ztvk'l was well-known for "saying it as it is" without bowtrowing to the politically correct psychobabble fads of the day.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Halacha days it is forbidden to "look at pictures of women to appreciate their beauty." And Shulchan Aruch states directly that we must stay "far far away from women".

    ReplyDelete
  19. Isn't it obvious that this blog focuses on divorce and this post is about divorce? And who cares who transcribed it?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Don't get carried away. His basic point is that expectations have a large part in happiness. A lot of marriages are destroyed by unrealistic expectations.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I repeat what I sent yesterday:

    Wow, do I like what Rabbi Miller writes! “And she feels unhappy. And the husband is a hum drum husband, an ordinary decent Jewish husband. Maybe a handsome man too. But still you're accustomed to him already. He's too accustomed to be romantic anymore. And so she starts becoming dissatisfied. You know what she's doing? She's ruining her neshama.”

    What’s an ordinary decent Jewish husband to do with an unhappy wife?? I quote Ester 10:3 “For Mordecai the Jew ranked next to King Ahasuerus and was highly regarded by the Jews and popular with the multitude of his brethren; he sought the good of his people and interceded for the welfare of all his kindred.”

    The ordinary decent Jewish husband must do for his wife, even if she’s unhappy, as Modercai did for the Jewish people,: always seek her good and always intercede for her welfare. Happy Purim. Let me add, some of these unhappy housewives are looking to make fights for no good reason. The husband has to be a psychologist and smart to truly help her, as is his duty as a husband. The feminist supporters are the ruin of these unhappy wives.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Funny. Only women want to divorce? Only women have a "duty" to embrace "what hashem gave her", and suffer through a life time of unhappiness?

    How convenient. Let me guess. The oh-so-frum writer of this article is a man.

    Did I get it right?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Funny. Only women want to divorce?

    What percentages of divorces are initiated by women?
    By-and-large, do all studies show that men will embrace a tough a marriage, rather than opt out?

    How convenient. Let me guess....

    Did I get it right?


    Nope. You got it all wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Instead of coming across like a self-righteous, sarcastic, brazen fool, why don't you just learn something from his words. He's not summing up all of divorce. He has plenty of quotes where he chastises men. I can find them for you. This is one quote that helps to explain an actual fact that most divorces among the many are initiated by women. Now since most Jewish men are not monsters, this means many women are initiating unjustified divorces that destroy children and adults. Why are they doing that? Do you have an answer?

    Look also at the actual case he describes. This woman is not suffering. She's looking for fantasy. Not the same thing. Her husband is decent. By getting divorced she caused herself even more suffering. I know many cases like this.

    ReplyDelete
  25. The whole point is that the "case he is describing" is not a case; it is a story that he made up. He could have framed it in the exact opposite manner, with the man being in the wrong, or in a gender-neutral manner, referring to a "spouse." He made the choice to blame the woman. In additional, anyone who reads his writings or listens to his tapes knows that this is not the exception, but the rule.

    ReplyDelete
  26. The whole point is that the "case he is describing" is not a case; it is a story that he made up. He could have framed it in the exact opposite manner, with the man being in the wrong,

    He also could have spoken about mice on the moon. He was speaking about the majority of cases. He was seeking to help real people in real life situations.

    It takes a lot of stupidity to accuse Rav Avigdor Miller of being a nasty man seeking to hurt and oppress women.

    ReplyDelete
  27. 1: You keep on making this assertion that most divorces in our community are initiated by women. Care to supply a source for that?
    2: I didn't call him a "nasty man," nor say that he was seeking to hurt women. I was just noting something that is obvious to anyone who has read or listened to him extensively.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Yes, nine out of ten times it is the woman who initiates.

    ReplyDelete
  29. It is a statistical fact that the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women. In the secular world you can easily see from court records, and manifold studies of them, that women initiate the divorce in excess of 75% of the cases. In the religious Jewish world this same approximate figure can be verified with dayanim who deal with gittin.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Politically IncorrectMarch 28, 2016 at 7:06 PM

    Rav Miller was an ish emes and for today's standards and even then, an ish emes par excellence. .....who also wasn't afraid what's Ned's to be said.....who needed nothing for himself and lived on a meager salary. ...even when his kehilla tried to raise it! HE, if anyone is the one entitled to credibility on his outlook ...

    ReplyDelete
  31. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/why-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/

    ReplyDelete
  32. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-resilience/201508/women-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why

    This is not the real reason. The real reason is that she can take the man to the cleaners.

    ReplyDelete
  33. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-more-likely-than-men-to-initiate-divorces-but-not-breakups-study-finds_us_55d61f03e4b0ab468da049bb

    Proof to my assertion. When it comes to non-marital breakups, men are equally likely to initiate because far less is at stake. But in divorce men get taken to the cleaners. And frum men even more so with additional costs like summer camp and private tuition. All aided and abbetted by the MO thugs and corrupt chareidi botei din.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Care to supply a source for that?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_in_the_United_States#Initiation

    You should consider the fact that Rav Avigdor Miller was very heavily involved in Sholom Bayis issues. However, his success rate was considerably higher than those of marriage counselors. You see, fifty percent of couples who attend marriage counseling still get divorced.

    I was just noting something that is obvious to anyone who has read or listened to him extensively.

    Let's review. MO Gal insinuated that Rav Miller said what he did since he was a man. You agreed with this. You are wrong. Rav Miller was interested in keeping both, men and women, happy. So he spoke about what would keep them both happy.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Those statistics have nothing to do with the community R' Miller was addressing.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Not true. He generally speaks from specific cases. And he describes many cases where he blames the man. The book Career of Happiness presents several of them. Here's one for you:

    "Here is a man who married a woman who was not too young, but who was idealistic. She wanted to keep
    Yiddishkeit well. He married her, and because he was not trained to get along with somebody else, he found faults in her and he expected her to be more obedient to him. The end was divorce, and her life was ruined. This Shomar Shabbos out of town girl had waited a long time to get married, and finally he came along and she felt this was it . And then the divorce ruined her, and she fell into a deep slough of depression, fell ill with cancer, and died. And he is the one who is guilty."

    So how about you do your homework before you open your big mouth.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Numerous rabbanim involved with divorce have told me that women initiate most divorces and I personally know numerous cases.

    You clearly have not listened to him extensively because he is quite balanced. And in being balanced he dares to ever criticize women even a little bit and that is a big problem for idol worshipers like you - women being your idol.

    ReplyDelete
  38. for a little punk like Yehoshua to question R' Miller's motives or ethics is so comical that we need to invent new words to describe just how comical it is.

    ReplyDelete
  39. It most certainly does. Just take look-see around, and you will see this to be the fact. Poll any ten botei din involved in gitten, and you'll see this to be the fact.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Politically IncorrectMarch 29, 2016 at 4:07 AM

    He was someone that they don't make 'em like they used to. ....

    ReplyDelete
  41. Politically IncorrectMarch 29, 2016 at 4:09 AM

    I like this comment, though not the situation. ...

    ReplyDelete
  42. Politically IncorrectMarch 29, 2016 at 4:11 AM

    That is why I think we live in a Sodom (Sodomite?) society, with all the glamour that our glorious country has to offer.....

    ReplyDelete
  43. i wrote a whole megilah for this post and it disappeared.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Here's another quote from R' Miller where he criticizes a man:

    "Here is a man who married a very plain woman, and after marriage discovered that she was not too smart. But she was a functioning woman -loyal and capable of running a household. Only he expected her to be bright. He began worrying about it and feeling disappointed. Finally this young man listened to the urging of his mother, standing behind him all the time and telling him that he married beneath his ability; and he gave his poor wife a Get. That was a ruination of her life. He had married a virgin who was loyal to him and willing to be with him forever, and because of his unrealistic expectations he became so disappointed and embittered that he could not continue. It is a tragedy, because you can be certain that with the next one he will be realistic. He will not find all that he expected. And usually the second one is less than the first one - usually much less. Therefore, of course you should look before you leap, but if you leaped without looking - then it is your duty to make the best of it." Career of Happiness, p. 127

    So again to whoever criticizes him by saying he's a male chauvinist just because he dared to ever criticize a woman, you don't know what the heck you are talking about. You suffer from a disease, call it feminism, call it ta'ava, call it avodah zara, call it plain old foolishness.

    ReplyDelete
  45. go back to the same *slot* and click on Reply, and voila!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Thanks for the tip! :)

    ReplyDelete
  47. Rav Avigdor Miller was one of this generation's great Jewish leaders. Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn, one of New York City's major thoroughfares, was closed down for several avenues (with buses coming from all places out of town parked on the highway) for his funeral.

    ReplyDelete
  48. What does the husband get by punishing the wife who does not stand him anymore? Refusing a get does not honor anything, it's a signal of failure.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Esty have you ever considered that at times a woman can ever be guilty of something, anything? Or have women no need for yom kippur?

    ReplyDelete
  50. I know personally of the details of a dozen divorces, all but one were initiated by the woman.

    ReplyDelete
  51. He's not punishing her. He's choosing to maintain the marriage target than end it. He wants to continue the marriage. And it is his halachic and moral right to continue the marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  52. "What does the husband get by punishing" - There's no punishment of his ex-wife involved except in your imagination.

    What does the husband get?
    He gets to continue living in the house he may have largely paid for.
    He gets to continue having a relationship with his beloved children.
    He gets to avoid becoming a slave to child support and alimony payments enslaving him to his ex-wife, while he is forced to move in with his parents or into a basement dump.
    He gets to avoid child support debtor's prison every time he gets laid off from a job.
    He gets to avoid living single for the rest of his life due to impoverishment, while watching his ex-wife cavort with her new boyfriends.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Politically IncorrectMarch 31, 2016 at 6:17 PM

    Very well said, Menachem, I suspect to hit the nail on the head you have to be in the category of " Ain chochom k'ba'al hanisoyon"......

    ReplyDelete
  54. Politically IncorrectMarch 31, 2016 at 11:26 PM

    In my case, get refusal was for negotiating leverage ......that I deserved despite ORA's adamant disagreement). In the earlier years, it was a demand that she stopped all bogus allegations and court proceedings against m. In later

    ReplyDelete
  55. You don't talk for all get refusers, sir.

    ReplyDelete
  56. What was the net result, in the end, in your case?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Choosing to maintain a marriage means look for an agreement, counselling, talking, negotiation and not chain the wife to his bed, increasing her hatred against him every single day, shaming her and their kids publicly. Choosing to maintain a marriage has a time limit. I don't know how long it should be since each case is a case, but I know that nobody can refuse a get for more than 1 year in the hopes that his wife will choose to go back to him. Long date get refusers do not want the wives back as they KNOW it would be impossible to live with someone after so much pain was caused. What intrigues me the most is the fact that these get refusers are so bitter inside that . I won't describe cases here. Who knows who reads this blog... I don't want to expose any friend of mine. And believe me, no woman in her right mind will wake up one day and think "Hey, I think I will just leave my husband, oh, should I tell him before or after getting my coffee at Starbucks?"... no... the end of a marriage takes time and a lot of warnings are given to a husband before the wife decides to leave him.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I have no reasons to justify or further explain my opinion to bait comments like yours.

    ReplyDelete
  59. It seems to me that you're missing the underlying point. Namely, that there is no right to a divorce. That if ones spouse wishes to continue there marriage when the other wishes to end it, by default and in the absence of specifically defined recognized legal cause, it is legally and morally recognized by halacha that the one who wants the marriage to continue has the right to insist it continue.

    And an artificial time limit, whether one year or even longer, of a spouse continuing to demand a divorce when the other spouses continues to desire to continue the marriage, does not change the aforementioned halacha. The spouse desiring to continue the marriage stands on very firm halachic and moral and legal grounds.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Politically IncorrectApril 1, 2016 at 7:57 AM

    At least we know from those possibilities alone that get-on-demand is most definitely wrong by default...and then other persons experiences...

    ReplyDelete
  61. Politically IncorrectApril 1, 2016 at 8:13 AM

    Voila! The bottom line - I faced the realization that she wasn't just INSANE, but TOTALLY INSANE, not merely that the issues she saw as non-negotiable, just that SHE was non-negotiable! Putting it in other words, I gave a get after a long time, after all the parties realized that she wasn't just being unreasonable, but that she WAS unreasonable.

    ....but nonetheless, I give credit to the corrupt individuals and organizations that supported and guided her and to to the corrupt and ineffective Bais Din system that did not punish her for going to court. Halacha allows me a heter me'ah rabbonim which is so socially frowned upon and shunned, while simultaneously, an aishes ish can go ahead and get married, all the more so, gittin of questionable validity are more readily acceptable.....

    ReplyDelete
  62. Curious why didn't you find a beis din to get a heter meah and just forget about her until she undid the wrongs she committed against you in the divorce process, however long that took her?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Politically IncorrectApril 1, 2016 at 5:06 PM

    I tried that, but shadchanim and prospective shidduchim were by and large not going for it. I think it is not socially acceptable (unless you have enough money that the woman would overlook it), although plenty of ground to be halachically acceptable. ...perhaps it has to be marketed properly. ....

    (Btw, just edited last comment: she still has not picked up the get!)

    ReplyDelete
  64. You tried it in the sense you got the heter and it wouldn't fly with shadchanim, or you didn't get the heter because you thought it wouldn't fly with prospective shidduchim?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Making a woman and her children live in permanent shame and distress is against halacha also.
    Afflicting the feelings of an innocent person is against halacha.
    Don't use loopholes of manipulate halacha to defend losers, who are not even able to give themselves a decent life, what to say of another person.
    There is no right for a divorce? Where did you take that from?

    Halacha is one thing, manipulation of it for evil purposes is another.

    A man who does not wan to terminate a marriage MORALLY has the right to do so while he sees hope to save the marriage. If the hope is gone, if only hatred, resentful feelings, shame and anger remains, a divorce is necessary to save not only the agunah, but the get refuser as well.

    There are cases and cases. A man who refuses a get because is dealing with an abusive "crazy" wife is one thing. The get is used for negotiations. A man who uses the get as a form to manipulate the woman is CRIMINAL.

    A man who refuses the get solely because he wants to punish his ex-wife and deny her the right to have more children, is a CRIMINAL.

    I stand by the Vilna Gaon opinion: Torah is for the heart as water is for the soil, whatever is in there, will grow, be it the elixir of life or a poisonous plant.

    Don't come talk to me about "halacha" when you lack knowledge of ETHICS.

    Ethic. Morality. Good deeds. Chessed. PEACE = Feelings.
    Halacha without these principles is robotic, psychotic and useless, like the refused sacrifices mentioned in the neviim, where Hashem says they're all useless if offered without the right feelings. Actually, according to Hashem it's worse than useless, it DAMAGING. It causes damage to those who offer it.
    Same applies to halacha done right bu with the wrong intention.

    ReplyDelete
  66. I am sorry you had to face this kind of situation. I know one or another guy who unfortunately had the same experience.
    Hope all problems are solved and wish you success in your life and may Hashem bless you with a good wife and children.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Each case is a case, that's why we have batei din, to help us look for all possibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  68. We have a Torah, Chazal and a Shulchan Aruch that tell us what the law is in Torah Judaism. It isn't based on our feelings of what is right or should be right. It is based on what Hashem said in the Torah and how Chazal ruled upon it and how the Mechaber codified it in Shulchan Aruch. All of these are in accordance with my previous comments to you. What you are retorting is based on your subjective feelings what the law should be based upon contemporary societal values.

    That there is no right to a divorce in the absence of circumstances that Chazal explicitly state entitles one to a divorce comes directly from the Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch. And the circumstances that Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch state entitles a wife to a divorce are very limited. Some of the few examples are if the husband has a physical deformity (and it is verified by beis din) or he engaged in physical violence against his wife (and was warned to stop and beis din has witnesses that he continued being violent after having been warned by b"d.)

    You are correct that if both spouses are at the point where neither wishes to continue the marriage then a divorce is indeed warranted and necessary.

    ReplyDelete
  69. "until people convinced me that she was TOTALLY insane." Maybe she's not insane.

    Is it plausible that ORA coached her to NEVER negotiate any divorce settlements whatsoever before any GET is done, while also coaching her to cause you every possible HEZEK in a reign of terror?

    What makes you think that woman being coached by ORA are operating independently of ORA?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Politically IncorrectApril 1, 2016 at 10:35 PM

    For question#1: a bit complicated. Someone gave me some bogus heter. So I had, and some went for it. ..they spoke to the rov who did it and some were maskim. When I found out that the heter was deficient, I would have gotten a better one, buy a) my cousin who was guiding me discouraged topursue it further for reasons you alluded to in your second paragraph. ...

    ReplyDelete
  71. Politically IncorrectApril 1, 2016 at 10:40 PM

    Hi, perhaps I can simplify Moe's reply that the the Torah guidelines not only guide us on what is allowed, but also on what is right and if the Torah doesn't allow something, then it is certainly not right....

    ReplyDelete
  72. Your'e welcome. Asides of the tip, there are many ways to skin a cat. You can find the disappearance in Disqus by clicking on Reply, your name, on *home* waiting for approval etc. Yogati, motzosi. have a good shabbos.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Politically IncorrectApril 2, 2016 at 1:14 AM

    In the meantime, I am still trying to 'bypass' heter me'ah because even though I know full well that I am 100% entitled, it will nonetheless, by and large. ......still be taboo!

    ReplyDelete
  74. Politically IncorrectApril 2, 2016 at 1:16 AM

    Omain!, nachas by you and yours.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Politically IncorrectApril 2, 2016 at 1:22 AM

    Kn what? Even ORA dropped her! ....

    ReplyDelete
  76. What involvement did ORA engage in with her initially?

    ReplyDelete
  77. I don't see what you have to lose by getting the heter meah and then having it as an option if she shleps it out much longer. You could still pursue finalizing the Get even if you have the heter.

    ReplyDelete
  78. It IS based on our feelings> Otherwise we could force gets with torture (since a document is given, the cold halacha was done, regardless of the feelings of the man), a kohen could bless a congregation he hates, a couple should not sleep together if they hate each other or are under influence of the '9 moods' (9 negative feelings), etc, etc. Halacha depends on feelings. Halacha, according to a rabbi I greatly admire, is like MUSIC. It depends of a whole rage of notes, professionals, intonations... all in harmony to be done with perfection. It's not a cold blooded law. If it was just the freezing cold and hard law, married women could dress like Holywood celebrities as far as they covered knees, elbows and hair... but there's a lot of sensitivities and feelings involved as even tsiniut is a concept that is better achieved when its values are cultivated inside-out, from the heart (feelings) to the wardrobe.

    Torah gives us the guideline but also opens discussion for a 'case by case' situation. And this 'case by case' involves feelings not only of the couple involved, but the feelings of their children as well. Kids will do what they see.

    I do not mean that all 'neglecting husbands' are evil and must be divorced, as some are victims of neglect themselves... some are victims of childhood traumas... some were 'normal' but later in life got post-traumatic disorder (soldiers etc.) and can no longer hold a marriage due to their 'new neglecting behavior' ... all of this must be studied by the beit din when the wife asks for a divorce and it involved feelings.

    We need psychologist-rabbis.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Politically IncorrectApril 3, 2016 at 4:52 AM

    There isn't one aspect in this universe that is not somehow governed by The Halacha...feelings too need to be guided and led by Halacha...

    ReplyDelete
  80. What the Halacha is, most certainly is not based on our feelings. It is solely based on what the Torah says, as explained by Chazal and codified in Shulchan Aruch.

    It is only based on feelings when halacha explicitly specifies feelings are to be accounted for. Such as when halacha says a divorce is invalid is not given voluntarily. That is something halacha explicitly states.

    And of course there are other times halacha accounts for feelings. But only halacha can tell us when. We cannot substitute our feelings for what halacha says. And we cannot use our feelings to change what halacha says or to add things halacha doesn't say.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Politically IncorrectApril 3, 2016 at 5:11 AM

    Agreed, As long as they proceed along Shulchan Aruch guidelines and don't take shochad...(ex. Mendel Epstein who took $10,000.00$$$... to pasken for a chiyuv get...as I heard him on tape in Federal Court in Trenton. ..)

    ReplyDelete
  82. Politically IncorrectApril 3, 2016 at 5:13 AM

    You are more or less right, just and my family are hoping to bypass this hassle. ..

    ReplyDelete
  83. We live in very troublesome times regarding family issues...

    ReplyDelete
  84. I disagree that feelings have to be guided by halacha. I think I'm using the wrong word... maybe I should use 'intention' instead of 'feelings'.

    But intention depends on how we feel about something.

    Last week parasha, for example, Moshe got mad that Aaron did not eat part of the sacrifice (tahat? I don't remember the technical name) instead let it burn completely... and Aaron explain 'how could I eat it?' after his the death of his 2 sons? He says he didn't have the feelings to do so... and Moshe understood.

    Halacha depends on intention... and intention depends on feelings... and feelings depends on working on middot ... it's a cycle, I think. Like the rav I admire says, halacha is like music: it needs many components to be well done.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Not bait at all. You talk as if all women are well meaning angels with no yetzer hara. And that is just silly. And worse it's part of the problem today.

    I know many marriages that ended in divorce despite the fact that the man even doted on his wife.

    You are operating nearly entirely from cliches of the exhausted kollel wife and the bum husband. This is the rare case and not even the kind that usually ends in divorce.

    The divorces are usually from the spoiled brat women of which there are many.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Have you forgotten about the kids and their welfare? I think you have.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Here's what you have to know, they are not bitter for losing their lunatic wives, they are bitter for losing their kids to a sick, corrupt system and exwives who take advantage of it.

    ReplyDelete
  88. How are the wives and kids in shame. But you really are a manipulator. The wife is choosing this road.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Esty does not believe in the Shulchan ARuch. She is totally secularized. So you are wasting your time talking to her.

    ReplyDelete
  90. This is why we don't have women rabbis, too much emphasis on feelings of the moment, their feelings of course. The feelings of their husbands and kids don't matter.

    ReplyDelete
  91. I and most women of the world have nothing to do with your emotional frustrations, sir.

    Intention (or feeling) is a requirement to do halacha the right way.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Thank you for letting us know that 100% of women who ask for divorces are lunatics! That's extremely important information! Finally we understand why so many divorces! Wow! You're a genius and figured it out all by yourself!!!! Hurray!

    ReplyDelete
  93. And I know many marriages that ended in divorce because the men were the rotten side of the situation.
    Speak intelligently, pls.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Aaron HaCohen substituted halacha for feelings when he couldn't eat the hatat due to his sons death. Moseh rebuked him, but after his explanation, his feelings were accepted. I never studied Gemara in a serious manner, but I'm sure there other examples. Intention is everything. From korbanot to marriages, intention is what makes the halacha valid. Otherwise, let's just hate each other and daven as if nothing was happening... or let's invite pedophiles to lead the Seder, since some of them know how to lead it better than anyone else... halacha is not a cold action, a lifeless ritual made by robots. Halacha is a guide for life. Our intentions determine if it's valid or not. There are many ways to save a marriage, but if such marriage becomes a source of death to the wife (be it spiritual or physical), it should be interrupted. Each case must be studied carefully and in its details.

    ReplyDelete
  95. halacha guide feelings... feelings guide intention... intention guide halacha... it's a circle.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Politically IncorrectApril 6, 2016 at 4:15 PM

    Sounds impressive. There are actually times where feelings govern Halacha such as when to make a Shehecheyonu! But, generally we are guided to subjugate our feelings to the Torah. ........and when the Torah does not seem to share our sentiments in any given situation, it would do us good to ponder what lessonShe is trying to teach us!

    ReplyDelete
  97. Many times if not for most, it's tough love that puts it back into the right tracks. And when they have enough sechel they will express their gratitude for not letting it waste away and throw out the bathwater.... It is the same pshychology as in Chanoch lenaar al pi darko, case by case. What they might see as if punishment or cruel, it is the truth serum in the pudding and the results are obvious when growing up. That is not to say it's all across the board, but bad apples are mostly few and far in between. ORA ys, accept any case with no questions asked with the exception of achas leshivim shana. Dok vetishkach!

    ReplyDelete
  98. When your focus in life is pleasure seeking, when your religion is pleasure, then discomfort is not only uncomfortable, it is tragic, your "religion" has been violated, or so it seems to the pleasure seeker.

    One of the many problems with pleasure seekers is that they tend to focus only on their own satisfaction as that of other people takes work, takes sacrifice. There's one piece of cake. Who's gonna get it? I can't be without cake. That would be uncomfortable. It would be tragic.

    Prior generations, who were more focused on the true purpose of life - God, virtue and spiritual accomplishment - left us an affluent world where we could have focused less on physicality than they had to but instead we focus exclusively on it. We blew the opportunity and have become the most selfish generation in history.

    I can't tell you if men or women are more intrinsically pleasure seeking - I would think it depends on free choice - but our generation is more solicitous of women. It indulges them more. Men have the technical burden of supporting a family which today is a brutal task and they have more kinds of mitzvahs. Women have a general duty to the family but feminism has obscured this and ridiculed it.

    This is not such an issue in the Chasidic world but it is in the non-Chasidic and it's a huge problem in the Modern Orthodox world which seems to work daily to remove the yoke of religious duty from women. Everything has to be fun and wonderful and inspiring and comfortable. Life is sometimes that way and sometimes not. It's a mix and so Modern Orthodox feminism contradicts the nature of life.

    Marriages are the chief casualty of this conflict. The halacha tries to hold the marriages together but the Modern Orthodox rabbinate battles the halacha. Some of their most talented abuse their gifts in the name of justice but actually in the cause of injustice and lust after the women. Remember, the Satan desires Chava and that in the end is what this is all about.

    The answer is not prenups, not divorce on demand, not hysteria about imperfect marriages, it's growing up, seeing what life is really about, and using life the right way, not for pleasure seeking but for spiritual accomplishment - and that's not the same as being high with feeling. It has much more to do with duty and self-sacrifice.

    People who can't handle that have no business getting married. A marriage is a union and the pleasure seeking person cannot unite with anything. He or she expects everything to join his or her cause of his or her personal pleasure.

    The Modern Orthodox world has created an hysteria about agunas. This is in the tradition of any traife movement that takes on the guise of a just cause but in the end destroys good people. There are few true agunas and the whole thing is a distraction from the real task at hand to become better people and do what's right for children.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Case by case you say... Should I start laughing now or wait a little bit longer?

    ReplyDelete
  100. My suggestion would be to withold as long as you can. But if it's coming to be a Skana, then blurt it out right then and there because of Pikuach chole nefesh. On a more serious note, it would be funny, if it weren't so sad. My suggestion was not for *those* that no need to apply for marriage to begin with and were just trying to do a favor for someone. Tsochek tsochek hoacharon. nnr

    ReplyDelete
  101. Not by the *case* and not by the dozen. The *case* at hand was fixable according to the Therapists. Had it not been so, TE'E would have never drafted a he loves me - he loves me not chart. She did not have personal issues with her husband just secondary or less, e.g. showing him off in public and socializing at her parents. These are not the first and foremost issues that should make or break a marriage. According to the Therapists, such issues are not uncommon and these *can* be worked out. It was the K's that went radical and talked her into that she can do better, of which was not in her best interest. T' was none other than exercising and demonstrating Power.

    Did she do any better???????????????????

    - Most of these hot headed divorcees regret immediately after their divorce and cooling off period, never do better, only worse! Some are never capable finding anyone willing to take their chances with such baggage laden divorcees. But by the time they wake up, it's too late. -

    After the divorce didn't fly, they invented a HETER against everything TORAH and Das Moshe veYehudis stands for. The stench went on misof haolam ad sofo, and 'oveil vachafui rosh' they had to retract, having RDF softening the blow. Still and all, it ain't yet over.

    According to Shulchan Aruch, the first thing is Give peace a chance and even two. Moshe Rabenu gave Korach cooling time. Chazal created saftey valves for the husband in order to let off steam and not go ahead hot headed full throttle for a Get. No one yet outsmarted the Torah ever. Yes, there *are* reasons for why the balance of power is in the hand of the husband. Hashem created man and woman and knows their nature better than any Psychologist, such was his wish, and he is not accountable to enumerate them to us. When Hashem revealed in Torah the reason for not to increase the stable of a King or increase his wives, it was to King David's detriment. When Hashem gave us the mitzva of Parah Adumo, he said zos chukas haTorah. King Solomon wanted to outsmart and explain, he admitted he cannot fathom it. Omarti echkemo, vehi rechoka mimeni. HaShem did not create them equal, not physically nor psychologically and with hierarchy, distributed burdens and responsibilities, to each his own to compliment each other in building a family successfully. When man starts to meddle in haShems draftings and architecture, it is chaos, and here are the results, Shochad, beatings, spilling of blood, Eishes Ish, Mamzerus, lies, falsifications, and breaking up of Yiddish homes robbing and ruining the childrens future. This is a live example and cannot be expressed any better. The Torah also acknowledges that there are times where ammends should not or could not be made, then a Kosher Get is to remedy that. That koach and wisdom was Given to Poskim of good standing following the Torah, Das Moshe veYehudis and not for Butchers and swindlers like Mendele etc.

    ORA is a RASHA organization that was created to be Mored baHashem uvToroso, in trying to outwit Kivyachol HKB"H as has been proven by the Undercover agents in being so. They accept kol tzri vechol zav just for the asking to use their offices for harassment as a weapon of mass destruction against husbands, and to qualify is just to be born female. Such recalcitrant's as they claim, do not come by the *case* nor by the dozen. It is very few and far in between. You have no *case*.

    Your Majesty dear Queen, I rest my *case*

    PS
    You may now start laughing to your hearts content. The only thing I suggest you is, to look in the mirror while at it.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Politically IncorrectApril 8, 2016 at 2:57 PM

    Rashi says that Aharon HaKohen did not eat the S'ir HaChatos (which was the *only* korban that burned) because it was what he refers to as kodshay doros, that is korbanos that were commanded for eternity, to which there is a DIN that it may not be eaten by an onen. The kodshay sho'oh, on the other hand, I mean the one-time korbanos offered solely at the inauguration of the Mishkan were in contrast to be eaten even in aninus to which the Torah says that Moshe heard and was satisfied with the explanation as Rashi brings from Chazal saying that he actually heard so but forgot. ....nothing to do with feelings and again, to the contrary, subjugation of feelings to ratzon HaTorah. ..

    ReplyDelete
  103. You started writing as a troll, to only theeeeeen write you megilah. I'm sorry for the story, but next time, explain your point well instead of making small little comments that make any sense. Anyhow, this case was a very one but does not reflect ALL the divorces out there.

    ReplyDelete
  104. I admit you're right. I heard a great shiur years ago and the feelings in this case of Aaron and Moses was the main topic. As I don't remember any reference, I leave my case.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Nothing trolly about what I wrote, and you don't look like that you are being sorry. There are plenty of contributors that went through the torture gang al lo avel bekapam in this neighborhood other then having fallen into a machsheifa. The next thing they do, rent a mendele and beat up their husband crying eishes potifar, Agunah, vechol minei shemos hanirdafim creating a disaster for everyone involved. Had they gone for some help before she got into a marsha'as snowballing selfspin she could have found relief, and that is no laughing matter This high profile case at hand being discussed is not the exception, but the rule, and BH the tide is being reversed having the orchestra canned.

    I did not contenplate you laughing it off so nEsty and haughtily so I wrote you dynamically a nice megilla in *response* that only proved my case. You are not the only one priviliged to write megillas like the one you just lost the other day. From this whole FIASCO that has been going on for some decades now put to a screeching halt, very very few should have gone that way, marriage is not what Lola wants Lola gets, it's a two way proposition called give and take. Lola did NOT do better the second time around, only much worse. Now that we have put the Mendele's and the HETER ISKEI BISH invention to rest and behind us, let us chose instead the path of Peace and look forward for a Didan notzach and living happily forever after . Ve'im tirtzu, ein zu agada. Other than that have kosher and zissen Pesach.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Houston, we have a problem. This goes for DISQUS and moderator. When I respond to a comment and it is so displayed in the comments column list, however, the substance is nowhere to be found. Only after the name disappears from being displayed in the right hand side of the main page does the response show up and only amongst amongst the comments, and by then it is Etrogim noch Sukkot. Disqus is out of synch and out of whack. Happens many times and it's like the guy waiting at the bus stop, he either had no car fare, or when he did, there were no buses in sight.

    ReplyDelete
  107. To cut my story short.My ex boy friend gave me a call and said to me that we should have a date,i agreed.On the date,He was begging me to have him back and i agreed we are now together as one again,Planing our wedding. all my thanks to priest omigodo the great spell who help me with his prayers. meet him via his email;{omigodoshrine@hotmail.co.uk} or call him through his phone number +2348079367204. Sandra Jason (2 months ago) 80 My name is Sandra Jason From USA I want to say I am the happiest person on earth today

    ReplyDelete
  108. After 6 moths of Broken marriage, my husband left me with two kids, I felt like ending it all, i almost committed suicide because he left us with nothing, i was emotionally down all this while. Thanks to a man called Dr Aisabu of Aisabu temple which i met online. On one faithful day, as I was browsing through the internet, I came across several testimonies about this particular man. Some people testified that he brought their Ex lover back, some testified that he restores womb,cure cancer,and other sickness, some testified that he prayed to stop divorce and get a good paid job so on. He is amazing, i also come across one particular testimony, it was about a woman called Shannon , she testified about how he brought back her Ex lover in less than 2 days, and at the end of her testimony she dropped his email. (aisabulovespell@gmail.com) After reading all these, I decided to give it a try. I contacted him via email and explained my problem to him. In just 48hours, my husband came back to me. We resolved our issues, and we are even happier than ever. DR Aisabu you are a gifted man and thank you for everything you had done in my life. If you have a problem and you are looking for a real and genuine spell caster, Try him anytime, he is the answer to your problems. you can contact him on aisabulovespell@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.