Saturday, January 24, 2015

The Orthodox Sex Guru's crusade for the acceptance of pleasure

NY Times   Update See rebuttal
How widespread sexual aversion is among ultra-Orthodox women is impossible to say, and the question is made especially difficult because there is a host of movements and sects with varying statutes and customs. But there is an erotic ideal that all these cultures share. After a young woman marries — often, like the Satmar wife Marcus told me about, to a man she has met and spoken with only once before the wedding — she’s supposed to feel that sex is a blessing, a union full of Shekinah, of God’s light, not just a painful or repellent reproductive chore. Quietly, rabbis refer struggling wives to Marcus’s care. Her task is to instill desire in them. [...]

Below her brown bangs, Marcus’s eyes fill with tears sometimes when she talks about how Orthodox Judaism — and above all the most restrictive branches of Haredi Orthodoxy — can quash female eros by imbuing a physical shame and a nearly apocalyptic sexual terror, by teaching that if the laws of tzniut, of modesty, are broken, calamity will come. One Haredi rabbi I met likened eros to “nuclear energy”: Sex could bring disaster to the world, but, he said, “the careful regulation” of it can connect a couple to God and beckon “transcendent experience.” [...]

One morning at the burnished round table where she talks with her patients, Marcus handed me a bride’s manual given out by kallah teachers. This particular book was written for the modern Orthodox; it is relatively progressive. The clitoris, for instance, is mentioned twice. Even so, the overwhelming emphasis is on the wife’s responsibility to keep the relationship on the right side of the law. The Talmud “indicates that during marital relations, the husband may not look at or kiss the wife’s makom ervah,” her private place, the manual warns. The lights should be off, a sheet should cover the couple, the position should be missionary — the wife is charged with keeping sex spiritual, keeping it chaste.

If she doesn’t, a parable in the introduction implies, God’s Chosen may “fall over the edge” of a cliff. “And that book,” Marcus reminded me, “is modern.” Her Haredi women seem to feel that their bedrooms are all but laced with Talmudic “trip wires,” she said, where one wrong move can cause destruction. [...]

The logic of rabbinical rulings can be counterintuitive and confusing to Marcus, and the decrees vary from rabbi to rabbi, but a line seems to be drawn between the physical and the psychological. A vibrator can be viewed merely as a piece of machinery to be applied medically to the body; racy literature or lingerie might damage the mind. (To finesse her way around the prohibition against reading soft pornography, Marcus once hired a cousin who majored in creative writing to produce some Haredi supersoft porn, and soon she was handing women a printout culminating in a Hasidic husband’s running his hands over his wife’s fully clothed hips and giving her a “meaningful kiss.” But the tepid scene didn’t seem to do much for her patients.) [...]

“I tell them our values are the same,” Marcus said about winning over her Haredi patients, “but in a way, I’m being disingenuous.” In addition to working one on one with women, she holds seminars for kallah teachers. She is on a kind of crusade, a fledgling effort to carry new ideas about eros into Orthodoxy, to educate the educators, to persuade them to give brides an abundance of detail about the anatomy of pleasure, about orgasm. [...]

35 comments :

  1. Where is this prudishness coming from? I am fairly yeshivish and got my chosson shmuess from a very yeshivish Rov. I never got any inkling that sex was supposed to be prudish. In fact, I am pretty sure the person who gave me my chosson shmuess went out of his way to give an example of a pretty outlandish type of a fetish as something that was absolutely muttar and encouraged. Are there really large numbers of people in the frum world (again, I am quite frum, so I don't mean this in a negative way) who think that sex between a man and his wife should be prudish?
    Of course this ends up affecting sholom bayis, and hence the children, etc. Perhaps this is a root cause of some of the problems in our community.

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  2. In the Hassidic communities that follow certain "takanos" many would define as prudish. Ask your Gerrer friends....

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  3. She's modern orthodox dealing with certain repressed Satmar women (I doubt even they are representative of the community), and painting the entire frum community --chassidicsh, yeshivish-- with the same fraudulent brush.

    Some truly disgusting comments there. This foolish, dishonest woman has given people yet another excuse to hate us. Thank you, Mrs. Marcus.

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  4. Yes. In the chassidishe community. I know from an old chassidishe chavrusa of mine that they teach some things that are against the Gemara, such as to have relations while clothed. The problem is that people like the New York Times like to lump all "ultra-orthodox" Jews together in one group.

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  5. And if they do? Just b/c our sex-drenched society considers prudishness to be the sin of sins, does not mean it is actually so.

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  6. That teaching by choson/kallah teachers is hardly limited to the chasidishe community.

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  7. It's not taught in the yeshivishe community.

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  8. There's prudishness and there's prudishness. What an MO sex therapist places into that category does not reflect the frum norm, nor should it. Nor should our morals and ideals become those of the sex-drenched street.

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  9. I agree, but that's why we have halacha that tells us what is and what is not considered prudish. And if something is not against halacha, then it is not only muttar, but in most cases of sexual relations it's a chiyuv. I have heard in the name of a big godol who wrote a lot of gittin that 95% of the gittin he wrote could have been avoided had the couple worked on their bedroom life. Perhaps the 95% figure was a bit of an exaggeration, but I have also heard a similar idea with a 75% figure from therapists.
    Today's society is sex-drenched as you say. Is that not even more of a reason to do away with takanos that are not practical and that may cause men and even women to look elsewhere for what they want, and in many cases, need? Please don't c"v think I am railing on the rabbonim. I am not. I am assuming that they just aren't aware of every worldly nonsense that goes on out there. I should think, however, that by now, the infidelities happening in our communities, lo aleinu, should have reached their ears by now. And if not, perhaps we need to focus more on this so that we won't need to focus as much on fixing kids that are rachmana litzlon already lost or almost lost. And, BTW, infidelity isn't necessarily the biggest problem, Many people are too good to actually do something like that at the end of the day/ But their relationships with their spouses will certainly suffer if they don't have a healthy sex life. This is real Sholom Bayis for crying out loud.

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  10. I agree with you on that. I never said that MO was the way to go. I was just emphasizing a different point.

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  11. The part about clothing (as well as various other similar ideas) most certainly is taught in the yeshivish community chosn shmuezes.

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  12. Infidelities in which communities? Stop exaggerating or projecting one own's insecurities on the community at large. You are imagining something you have no documentation of since none exists and your contention is wholly inaccurate.

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  13. Dear AndJew,


    Please gives the name of this supposed anonymous godol you quote. Based upon your claim, the Chasidsh community

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  14. No one argues that a healthy sex life is important to a marriage. That does not include the prescriptions of someone who holds that normative halacha is a step too far. Read what the article says about Mrs. Marcus's view of harchakos of niddah. She trembles at the edge of explicit kefirah, but opts to cry instead.

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  15. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. I understand you to be saying that a yeshivishe choson shmuess tells young men to remain clothed during relations. If that's what you're saying, I strenuously disagree.

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  16. Yes, I misunderstood. I thought the point was chasidim are taught *not* to do it with clothing, and I was adding yeshivish guys are also told it's assur to do it with clothing. I see the point was they're taught *to* do it with clothing. That I've never heard and it certainly isn't something the vast majority of chasidim are taught.

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  17. There is the famous story of rav moshe bick telling the satmar rebbe z"l that we(chassidim) should require a couple to date a few times before marriage. Rav yoel was against it. Ra v bick responded, "kevod satmar rebbe does chuppah veKiddushin. I write the gittin. I know what's going on."

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  18. These things should never make it to the NYTimes. The overwhelming comments there were hostile to Judaism. Not everything has to be publicized.

    About Gerrers. Does anyone know if they have more sholom bayis problems than others?

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  19. I had a Satmar Chavrusa who later became a Rov who told me that he WAS taught to do it with clothing.

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  20. I'm not going to give any names. It's fine if you don't want to believe me.
    In addition, divorce rate is not a fully reliable indicator of healthy marriage. MO might be more willing to get divorced (maybe even way too quickly, before they have even tried to work on things) than chassidim. There might be other mitigating factors. I do think the chassidish community is doing a lot RIGHT. I think the chassidish community at large is likely being taught about how to have a healthy sex life. I agree that the MO way is not the right way. I don't even think this is a chassidish vs. yeshivish or litvish thing. I am sure many yeshivish people are not being taught properly. I am saying that telling couples to remain dressed during relations as Marcus suggests she has been told by some chassidish women (although I think it might have been in a different article), is not halachically acceptable and is not healthy. For a woman to feel that she has no sexual pleasure is not healthy. Again, This is why we have halacha telling us what we can and can't do. Takanos on top of halacha should be used in light of current realities al pi d"t. But there has to be good education or we are risking shalom bayis.

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  21. I didn't exaggerate anything. I said there was infidelity. There is. I didn't say it's rampant (in fact, I b"H don't have any personal acquaintances who I believe to have done anything like that). I even said it's probably not the biggest issue. I was clear that even people who don't step out of marriage, can have bad relationships with their spouses because of bad sex lives. That's not me talking. That's therapists in the frum community along with one of the previous generation's most well-known and respected kosvei gittin.
    And as I have stated, I don't think any of the issues I spoke of are grounds for listening to Marcus's "cure" for them. The idea of couples reading soft porn is particularly disturbing to me. But let's not ignore the fact that some people (again, SOME people) are given a wrong view of a proper sexual relationship with one's spouse.

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  22. Yes, infidelities. I heard a good few years ago that R' Meir Bransdorfer Zt"l made an emergency call to Rebbitzen Tehilla Abramov to get involved with Shalom Bayis/intimacy in his community, because, as he put it, "we are full of mamzerim."

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  23. That's what is called a bubbe maisa.

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  24. I had a MO chavrusa who later became a rabbi that told me that the he was taught to do it wearing gloves. Shoin, Now we know the mo do it wearing gloves.

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  25. Interesting. I knew they were into certain fetishes.

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  26. עֲנֵה כְסִיל כְּאִוַּלְתּוֹ, פֶּן יִהְיֶה חָכָם בְּעֵינָיו

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  27. Sheker! There is not a not a single chassidishe chosson or kallah teacher that teaches healthy people to do this.

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  28. Nat,
    I am a mechuton of the Gaon Reb Meir Bransdorfer zt"l and I had a very long talk with him about these things at my son's chasuna. I was completely against perushise today. I asked him, "Tell me if there is one half of a yunger man out of a thousand who doesn't look at women." He smiled. At the end of this, I told him it was almost Shabbos and I had to stop taking his valuable time. He was very warm as he walked me to the door and said, "You have the sources but..." The "but" I will leave you in suspense. But it is nothing that I basically disagree with. Rabbi Bransdorfer grew up while Hitler was slaughtering Jews and if he decided to be super holy I will assume that his people are those who qualify for the kedusho that he seeks. But people born today should be perushim? One condition. Such a person should never walk down the street and surely, cholila vichas, never, ever attend a chasuna. Reb Aharon Kotler walked past ferocious killer dogs rather than walk down a regular city street. He once took some students along and told them to hang on to his coat. The dogs didn't bother them. Yes, some people are ready for what some people are not ready. I have a post about this on my blogspot www.torahhalacha.blogspot.com . If anyone wants to talk to me about these matters my number is 845-578-1917. A Chosid once told me that he spoke to many rabbis and until he spoke to me he never understood what marriage was all about.

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  29. Baloney, yourself. What's your problem--you can't deal with the truth? I am telling you a first-hand story of something that I heard from a reliable person with my own two ears. If you think that I am lying, go ahead and call me a liar and don't believe me, but you have no justification to call me a k'sil. And just be aware that you might be sticking your head in the sand.

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  30. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/01/ywn-posts-seriously-flawed-translation.html#comment-1816333378



    Your implication is that 1) a Satmer Rov has relations with clothing and 2) he teaches others to do it this way. Kindly provide his name.


    Until you provide his name, it is unfathomable that this is taught in Satmer. And i definitely doesn't make it the truth. Satmer encourages their chassidim to become knowledgeable of the halacha themselves as well. Is it possible that there was one flukey chosson teacher out there? Certainly. To taint Satmer this way is simple foolishness.

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  31. So maybe it was a fluke occurrence. I would be happy to hear that the reality is otherwise.

    This should not distract, however, from the point being made throughout this discussion, which is that there do exist people who believe that it is hashkafically warranted to maintain a level of prudishness with regards to marital intimacy, and that in today's day and age, this outlook is irrelevant at best and destructive at worst. I hope that this is something that we can all agree upon.

    It also happens to be that this outlook does happen to be more widespread among certain sectors of our society, where it is mistakenly assumed to be frumkeit. Without naming names, I hope that we can agree upon this as well. And I am not excluding the litvishe yeshivishe world from this, although they have become concerned with the recent spike in the divorce rate and have therefore been more proactive in their efforts to correct this problem. Let's just say that as of seven or ten years ago, it was prevalent everywhere, and let's hope that it will keep getting better.

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  32. "Clothing permitted/preferred
    Vayikra Rabbah[1](21:8):
    R. Simeon b. Yohai said: There are four things which the Holy One, blessed be He, hates, and I too dislike them: The act of one who holds the membrum virile when urinating, of one who performs the marital duty naked. . . "

    At least with regards to this source, I am pretty sure that the act of "Meshamesh mitaso arum" refers to doing the act without being covered by a sheet or a blanket, but not that they should be clothed.

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