Thursday, June 27, 2013

Rabbi Yisrael Eichler Speaks up for Torah Jewry

Guest Post: Translation by RaP



  1. Ah the usual. You seculars don't do anything day long other than sit around and think about how to screw us Chareidim. You don't do anything else. Everything you do is about us. Your whole world revolves around us. That's the way we see it and that's the way it is.
    Please. No one outside the Chareidi camp has time for these tired old canards any longer. It's not the 1930's, stop acting like it is.

  2. I agree with Garnel's observation. It was the chareidi world that decided to stand apart, that made dialog and compromise impossible. They demonized the chilonim for decades. And now, they're being hurt by that impossibility. In effect, the chilonim are treating the chareidim on the issues of the draft and core curriculum exactly the way chareidim have deploringly treated chilonim on the subjects of kashrus and shemiras Shabbos.

    Only a tiny percentage attempt to speak from a position of brotherhood. The chareidi world points to ZAKA and a few other tzedaqos as a symbol of their willingness to aid the broader society. But it's only a few who actually do this work, the men among them are looked down upon for doing so rather than learn, and look how much heat R' Meshi-Zahav gets for trying to promote this togetherness.

    So, for years (the vast majority of) chareidim stood behind a wall and rather than engate in kiruv, they try forcing the Other with laws prohibiting chilul Shabbos and limiting business in non-kosher food.

    So now demands are being made in the reverse. And this shrill whine about cantonism, shmad, and other falsehoods makes discussion impossible. There laws would add up to less intervention than Lakewood or Manchester are subject to, so don't tell me Torah -- even chareidikeit -- is being pushed into the sea. So of course the chilonim are trying quotas and force. They have no other tools. At least Yesh Atid tried to get a court chareidi (but they're learning Anglo Yeshivish isn't mainstream Israeli Chareidi) so that there can be some internal dialog *before* going to public forum.

    But that isn't why I came here from Feedly to write a comment. It's what Garnel's post motivated me to add.

    What originally got me to write in was this disenfranchisement of the Dati Leumi and Chardal world from the Olam haTorah. This is not quite the song we heard in the weeks after the slaughter at Mercaz haRav.

    But now, attacking Chareidim is attackign Torah. There is no eilu va'eilu. Hesder is shmad.

    I was in KBY. I learned with MIA Yehudah Katz's chavrusah. When the order came to the office, the messenger went straight to the beis medrash because he know that was the only place Yehudah Katz would be. And now, 21 years later, he's still missing. As is Zekharia Baumel, Yeshivat Har Etzion.



    BTW, I agree with the Netziv's plan for learning rather than serving in the army. See Ha'Ameq Davar Devarim 33:18. (I provided a link for your convenience.

    What would Israeli culture look like if there were a contingent learning Torah on every army base and at the front? Kiruv kollels on the way between the front and the jobnikim in support. When we speak of learning providing protection, that's what we're talking about. Not the bachurim remaining -- or fleeing -- away from the danger they claim to believe they're mitigating!

  3. So, commenters, how do we get out of this mess? Neither extreme will give into the other. Do those in between have enough insight and clout to create a fair resolution?

  4. As RMTorczyner noted, there are (limited) parallels between this situation and that faced by the residents of Gush Katif. In that both felt threatened on an existential level by the Israeli gov't, and responded by screaming irrationally (my description) in panic.

    Also, RAM, your description is false. There is willingness to compromise on one side. There are proposals of chareidi tracks, more limited tours of duty, etc... The lack of compromise is one-sided. (And, as I wrote already, predates and caused the issue, and therefore cannot be forgiven under the excuse of panic.)

    And since Israel cannot afford to follow Cyprus into the fiscal abyss, things will change for the chareidim. Again, like Gush Katif. Those who refused to cooperate, to take the money and time to move out in an orderly manner, suffered the most.

    1. "There is willingness to compromise on one side. There are proposals of chareidi tracks, more limited tours of duty, etc... The lack of compromise is one-sided."

      Please detail the compromises that Lapid's extreme faction has put forward.

    2. Did you see ? Here's a critical snippet:
      The Yesh Atid plan states plainly and simply: For the next five years, open the doors for 18-year-old ultra-orthodox young men to go to work with no requirement to serve. During those five years the National Authority for Civilian Service will identify the differing needs throughout Israeli society and arrange to address those needs by harnessing those who will enter National Service after the initial five year period. Furthermore, during those five years, a payment plan will be established for combat soldiers who serve for a full three years.

    3. The almost-final Perri draft rules gives a carte blanche learning till age 21 (rather than 18 that was originally planned).. Sanctions will be financial and not criminal and learners that are married will have extremely limited services if any.

    4. There was nothing irrational about the Gush Katif community's (and its allies) screaming because in the end the Govt did attack them. So their perception was absolutely correct. The only thing irrational about the response was in convincing themselves that the soldiers would not evict, that "brothers" could not do it, and that if they hug and dance and cry with soldiers they will convince them not to. Otherwise, what in the world are you talking about? Gush Katif really was a shmad. This "decree" of lapid is NOT.

    5. And, btw, Those who agreed to "cooperate" were also made to suffer.

      Want to know how I know? Well, many of them are still living in caravans to this day. Not to mention unemployed, depressed, deteriorated health. What heartless cruelty to give tongue-lashing to the victims of that crime for not lying down and playing dead to a great enough extent. Sounds like Ghandi's advice to Jews.

    6. So, Student V, your support for one unsubstantiated claim is to make another one?

      People who took the gov't's offer got money and resettlement help. I wouldn't be surprised if not everyone succeeded even with that help. But it wasn't the dislocation of being forced out with no aid and not taking any time to house shop and job hunt first.

  5. Mk Eichler for years has been a negative spokesman for Toras Hashem. Assumptions and negativity towards anyone outside of the Charedi world is rampart.

  6. After reading this thing, I am at a complete loss as to how anyone can get upset when a Yesh Atid MK blurts out the word "parasite".


please use either your real name or a pseudonym.