Sunday, July 30, 2023

Messianic times

 Will all halachic questions be resolved in Messianic times and if so how? Sources?

Mishna Torah (Melachim 12) Our Sages taught: "There will be no difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms."...He will not come to declare the pure, impure, or to declare the impure, pure. He will not dispute the lineage of those presumed to be of proper pedigree, nor will he validate the pedigree of those whose lineage is presumed blemished. Rather, he will establish peace within the world as ibid. 3:24 continues: 'He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children."

In that era, there will be neither famine or war, envy or competition for good will flow in abundance and all the delights will be freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d.

Therefore, the Jews will be great sages and know the hidden matters, grasping the knowledge of their Creator according to the full extent of human potential, as Isaiah 11:9 states: 'The world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the ocean bed."


  1. Doesn't the Rambam contradict the sources that say that, before Moshiach comes, BBA, Eliyahu HaNavi, ZLt, will come and do all those things he just listed?

  2. If he builds the Best Hamikdash, there should be proper cohanim, with urim v-thumim. That might answer questions the King cannot do.

  3. there are some things we do not know about the Messianic times.

    Will we be back in Biblical times, eg neviim, open miracles, etc.?
    What is the role of the Melech Hamoshiach? Will there be a sanhedrin or will there be Shoftim like in the Tanakh? How about techiyat hameitim?

    Then the judges or Sanhedrin, or Kohanim, will they pasken like they do today in Bnei Brak, or will they have a different approach? Perhaps they will abolish certain rabbinic laws, or pasken differently?

    Will there still be disease, wars etc? The Mashiach will both fight wars, and bring peace - so it is not an easy ting to understand. Will the rest of the world allow him to build the Beit Hamikdash, or will it be the final showdown? what will happen to Amalek?

    The idea that the world will follow in its normal ways is contradictory to the claims of world peace, abundance etc - it is describing a utopia with 8- 10 billion people, with all the problems of food, energy, war being solved - this goes against every rule of human socio-economic nature.

  4. We're basically living in Rambams version of yemos hamashiach

  5. in some aspects, subjugation to the nations has been eroding away since 1948. But they still pressure us and prevent us from building the beit Hamikdash.
    However, there is no world peace, there is no abundance, and majority of Jews are still largely secular.

  6. We don't have the Beit HaMiqdash because we don't deserve it.
    Imagine that, tomorrow, the big Muslim leaders announce "All right, Jews, you can have Haram al-Sharif back. We admit it's yours. You can build your Temple. We're cool with that."
    Could you imagine the infighting that would break out in the 'frum" world as each group of "Torah-true" Jews simultaneously announces it's the only group that can be trusted to run the project while explaining how all the other groups are evil heretics? The chilul HaShem would be awful. That's why we don't have the Temple Mount.

  7. Yes, but most of not all hareidim will say it's still assur, even ifwe have permission from the goyim. Like going up to temple mount today but worse

  8. On a more basic level, how many people are going to watch hundreds of animals slaughtered in public with their blood thrown around on a daily basis?

  9. Having to pay taxes to the government is a modern form of subjugation.

    While the government does provide certain services, your taxes also go to pay for many wasteful things, and by government force of law, that money is being taken out of our pockets against our will. That is a form of subjugation, when your hard-earned money is taken away from you by force, and you need to work longer hours to support yourself + the tax man.

  10. I wonder about the people that feel that bringing animal sacrifices in a Temple is considered barbaric.
    Will Hashem invite them to join the Messianic era?

  11. It's a psychological thing. Back in the day, people say their brisket from farm to plate. Seeing the animal killed and carved up was something that was part of the culture. It would be difficult for folks who think meat comes in a package in the supermarket to suddenly go back to that.

  12. What nonsense. The Tanakh already tells us about how Kings would tax their subjects. Moshiach is restoration of the monarchy, which could very easily collect taxes.
    The subjugation referred to by Rambam is what happened when Israel was occupied, expelled, prevented from returning, or rebuilding the Temple. Maybe you think the tax regime is better in galus?

  13. It's better than the various segulos they have for sale today. Or even kapparos, which people still do.

  14. Anybody who studied Chumash and Mishna would recognize that this is the reality of Torah. Those who pray the Shmoneh Esrei, include the prayer for the return of the Temple services, which include the sacrifice of Korbanot. Even if they never saw an animal being slaughtered, they still don't consider the laws of Korbanot to be "barbaric".
    If someone doesn't want to watch the slaughter of a Korban, there is no Halachic obligation to watch it. But they shouldn't refer to Korbanot as barbaric.

  15. Rambam famously said that one function of the korbanot is to ween the people off their idolatrous satyrs. So today, people go en masse to uman, meron, bonfires on lag b-omer, etc. These are frum people. Secular have even worse LGBT parades etc.
    So Moshiach will draw them away from such falsehoods, and reinstitute the korbanot and temple services.

  16. First of all, you brought up the word "barbaric", not me. I continue to say this: people are not used to blood, they're not used to seeing animals killed in front of them other than racoons on the highway. Yes, we pray thrice a day for the korbanos to return but actually experience it? It will take a big mental shift for most.

  17. Taxes isn't supposed to be subjugation, especially in a democracy. It's part of the social contract - the government provides me with certain services and protections. I pay my part for the serivces and protection.

  18. Anybody who studied Chumash and Mishna would recognize that this is the reality of Torah. .....

  19. I agree about the services and protection.

    But I also noted that there are also many wasteful things that the government pays for, that are not related to the above categories, and as a libertarian, are not included in my social contract.

    For example, there are huge sums being given by the government to other countries. Sometimes they're camouflaged as "loans". These are "loans" that are highly unlikely to ever be repaid. The taxpayers are the ones footing the bill.

    There is inflationary spending, where governments spend more than they take in, and operate in an irresponsible fiscal manner.

    There is also welfare spending, which often benefits illegals. Welfare is an incentive for them to come and settle in our cities; and now they have the votes. We have to pay taxes, and they can commit all crimes, and we have nothing to say regarding it, because they're now the majority. Eventually, they drive us out of the cities. "Social contract", indeed. True to form of socialist ideology. Take from the rich and give it to the poor.

    There are many other kindhearted things that the liberals are doing with our money. The money to pay for them comes out of our pocket, and at the end of it all, it means that we are losing out money and time which we could better use for ourselves.

  20. If you're willing to make the mental shift, when the time comes, then you're way ahead of many people on the planet.

  21. What is the reality of Torah?
    Please explain.

  22. Taxes are not modern
    For much of history the peasants of the noble or king paid 50% of crops
    Jews were especially oppressed by taxes especially in Muslim lands

  23. See 1 Shmuel 8, 10-22
    His warning about Kings. You could say that a 10% tax rate is very good, but that was 10‰ of grains and produce (assets) not profits.

    See also hilchot melachim ch. 4, where a king has the right to impose taxes.

    the discussion is about Moshiach vs subjugation. Subjugation of the nations, not of moshiach

  24. I agree. Government is a huge source of waste and the bigger the government, the bigger the waste.
    Now, one can make a case for many of the examles you brought. A country like the US has an interest in international alliances. Military and charity aid packages are designed to shore up those alliance as well as preventing instability in other parts of the world that might harm American's interests. Welfare spending, if done correctly, is in society's interest as an impoverished underclass with no hope of breaking out of that cycle will be a petri dish for revolution.
    The issue isn't really with government spending but how it's used for political gain, not national gain.


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