https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/dr-theodor-herzl-building-the-3rd-temple/
Yesterday marked the commemoration of the 17th of Tammuz, a day of
fasting and reflection and the start of the “three week” mourning period
culminating in the somber day of remembrance Tisha BaAv, the Ninth of
Av. In addition to the other misfortunes which befell the Jewish people
on this day, traditionally the 17th of Tammuz is the day when the walls
of Jerusalem were breached in 69 C.E. leading to the destruction of the
2nd Temple 3 weeks later on the Ninth of Av. Throughout the centuries,
the Jewish people have used this time period for both personal as well
as national introspection. For the vast majority of people the Temple
and its destruction, is only used as an instructive teaching platform
for broader moral lessons. For many the questions and introspection
focuses on the following: What was the root cause of the destruction?
How can we make sure to not fall prey to it again? Do we see similar
trends in the Modern State of Israel, and if so how should we combat
those trends? However, regrettably, there seems to be only a small
minority of the Jewish people who ponder and contemplate the need for
the actual physical rebuilding of the Temple. What purpose did the
Temple serve, and what meaning and insight would its rebuilding hold for
the Jewish People Today?
Dr Herzl believed in G-d and the Torah.
ReplyDeleteDid he keep the mitzvos?
ReplyDeleteIs this the same person who said this on the same comments feed? :
ReplyDelete"IsraelReader
an hour ago
Teshuva means to return to Hashem and His Torah.
Herzl is not known to have done either of them. He merely changed tactics."
He returned to Hashem. Perhaps the reason he died so young was that he did not return as much as Josiah or Hezekiah did. He believed but remained (as far as we know) largely secular in practice. Or perhaps oseik b'mitzvah, patur m'mitzvah. He was osek b'mitzvah of pikuach nefesh. He was oseik b'mitzvah of acquiring Eretz Yisrael.
he had a gadlus, and spiritual power that enabled him to carry out these central mitzvot, and that apparently no other Jew in his time had the ability to do.
you know this how?
ReplyDeleteNext time you're in Israel, make sure to remember to pray at the grave of your supreme Gadol, Theodr Herzl.
ReplyDeleteAny good actions that a person may do, that don't come from a desire to fulfill Hashem's will as spelled out in the Torah, has little “mitzvah” value.
ReplyDeleteBetter than the fegele buried at chelkas rabbonim
ReplyDeleteLike saving a drowning man?
ReplyDelete"Herzl was certainly not a religious Jew, but just like many secular Israelis today, he was a believer and consumed religious experiences a la carte. (Herzl was arguably an early prototype of the datlaf, the secular Israeli Jew who occasionally observes religious rituals). He demonstrated aspects of his strong faith on various occasions. For example, Herzl described freedom in the Jewish state in a divine context. “Nobody will stand above us, except the Almighty God,” he said. Similarly, he wrote about the journey to the Promised Land that “God, in his inscrutable goodness, has promised us.”"
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/magazine/what-inspired-herzls-zionism-599949/amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/magazine/what-inspired-herzls-zionism-599949/amp
ReplyDeleteDid Yiftach put on tefillin?
Who told you that?
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know the motives of people's actions?
How about mitzvah sh'lo lishma?
Do you prefer aveira lishma?
You have a very low standard for belief it is enough to mention the word G-d
ReplyDeleteWhat did bar kusiva say? Don't pray for X, only for y.
ReplyDeleteWhy had Moshe neglected circumcising his son, that he had a visit from the angel of death?
ReplyDeleteNistar is the word. Without him, we may not have had a State today. Palestine would be an Arab backwater, perhaps under Iranian or Jordanian control. There would be a small Jewish community in meah shearim. Maybe a few yeshivas. Visiting would be restricted, and persecution would take place occasionally.
ReplyDeletePeople are arrogant and try to tell God how to run the universe.
ReplyDeleteHerzl was an assimilated secular Jew. God chose him to kickstart the Shivas Tzion process. Why? Ask Him but it was His decision. Who are we to claim He picked someone unqualified?
Yerovaam II was a thoroughly evil king but God picked him to restore the boundaries of the northern kingdom. Achav and Menashe were thoroughly evil (except according to the Satmar) but we don't say "Oh they were secular so they weren't legitimate rulers of Israel."
As for the Temple Mount, we should stand back and look at the message God is sending by letting our enemies occupy it. Clearly He doesn't want us back up there yet. We have work to do as a nation first and then He'll come through.
No, G-d, chas v shalom, like everyone else, "must comply with daas Torah." Thats why the Satmarer rebbe alleges there are 2 reshuiot, and Sam'ae-l is the ruling power on certain days of the week.
ReplyDeleteThat’s a straw man argument.
ReplyDeleteNo one is telling Hashem how to run the universe.
The discussion is about how to perceive historical figures.
Are they someone we should admire and strive to emulate, or are they people whose lives represent a life that we find repugnant?
Herzl had a hand in founding the Zionist enterprise, and Yerovaam had his hand in history. Chazal tell us (Mishna, Sanhedrin 10:2) that Yerovaam is one of the people in history that has no share in the World to Come. We can only speculate what's going to be with Herzl in the World to Come.
I wouldn't visit the grave of either of them.
ReplyDeleteI'm not into visiting graves, and praying at someone's grave does not do it for me.
ReplyDeleteHerzl is not a Rebbe. Maybe he is symbolic of the health of the nation - a leader who didn't fully embrace Torah but had tremendous koach.
If you ask hareidim, eg about Einstein, they tend to denigrate him for not devoting his genius to Torah study. If you ask MO, or secular, they are proud of him, a symbol of Jewish genius, humanism etc.
In time of Tanakh, we had neviim, who would tell the kings what Hashem had revealed to them.
ReplyDeleteIn Herzl s time, no navi existed, although the Ohr sameach made some chilling predictions.
Did rabbonim even give Herzl Tochecha? Did he meet the Chofetz Chaim and ohr sameach?
Did Lubavitch give him Tefillin to place on his head and arm?
The argument garnel is bringing is that the State, the victories, the kibbutz galuyot, are all divine miracles and part of the geula. Those who deny this, are denying G-d's hand in history.
Without referring to it, you're apparently using the Chazon Ish's yardstick for Tinok Shenishbah, which might have an effect on Herzl's outcome in Heaven, after death.
ReplyDeleteOthers have a different yardstick, but the point is moot, because the discussion is not about Herzl's outcome in Heaven, but rather about how to perceive the person called Herzl, and should we admire and strive to emulate him?
If secular people would truly believe in the premise of Mitzvah, meaning that they believe that they are commanded by Hashem to perform the Mitzvos, then they would be observant, or strive to be observant.
ReplyDeleteSince they are none of the above, I presume that they deny the entire premise of Mitzvah, and that they deny that they’re under orders from Hashem.
But mainstream chareidi as well as rz do emulate him. They are sitting in. what is essentially his Knesset, voting in his elections, paying tax to his State, carrying passport and ID of his State. Benefiting from his kibbutz galuyot, enabling shidduchim, schools, economy, airlines, houses - these are all derivatives of his enterprise. If Chas v shalom de haan had his gay way, there would be a few pockets of oppressed Jews in meah shearim, if not expelled or butchered by Isis, Hamas etc. They would still be living from the chalukah system.
ReplyDeleteAmerica would be home of Jews.
Iraq, Syria, Yemen have all been destroyed by wars, so those Jews would have left long ago to America. France or UK.
I won't get into an argument about if we're better off with a State or without it. The point is moot. 1948 happened, and the State is here.
ReplyDeleteHashem apparently wanted the State of Israel come into being, and the Zionists were one of the tools that Hashem employed, including Herzl was a also useful tool to Hashem.
However we also know that as a secular Jew, Herzl did not want a state that conforms to Torah, and had had no use for Rabbis in his proposed State, and he therefore gets no admiration from us.
In Herzl's words:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl
“Shall we end by having a theocracy? No, indeed. Faith unites us, knowledge gives us freedom. We shall therefore prevent any theocratic tendencies from coming to the fore on the part of our priesthood. We shall keep our priests within the confines of their temples, in the same way as we shall keep our professional army within the confines of their barracks. Army and priesthood shall receive honors high as their valuable functions deserve. But they must not interfere in the administration of the State which confers distinction upon them; else they will conjure up difficulties without and within.”
Or maybe he had learned derashot haRan on the King's law.
ReplyDeleteHerzl was a tragedy of opportunity missed. As a Jew, Herzl was a failure in his observance, and to use a modern term, he was just a "useful idiot", who Hashem used in His greater plan.
ReplyDeleteHe could have channeled his energies in bringing himself and others to Mitzvah observance, and he would be considered from the greatest Ba’alei Teshuvah of his generation
Instead he became an icon for rebellion against Hashem. He serves as a model and inspiration for secular Jews; that you don't need to observe Mitzvos in order to be a fulfilled Jew, and by continuing to exhibit boundless admiration for him, you play into the same mindset.
The question also extends back to before Herzl. Did Hashem want emancipation and secularism? Was Dreyfus therefore sent as a modern day mordechai Saga? To put a reverse on assimilation.
ReplyDeleteSo we can come up with many theories.
Priests do keep in temples, but ultimately sit on the bd, judge with urim & thumim. Modern stste is not geared up for this.
I wonder how muslims would react if we started regular korbanot on a heichal on temple mount?
How do you do your calculations?
ReplyDeleteCould he have been inspirational to reform /seculars? I doubt it. Rav kook, the Chofetz Chaim, rav Joseph Schneersohn, and other gedolim couldn't turn the tide. Moshe rabbenu couldn't turn the tide in his lifetime.
Israel serves as a reservation for secular jews who in chul would be lost in 25 years. Until moshiach arrives, Israel is the best way of preserving jews.
The rebelliousness you mention were tge cause of Herzl creating zionism, not the effect.
There was no mass teshuva movement 120 years ago. Gedolim were unable to stem the tide. If Herzl spent his time in yeshiva, there would be no followers - he was offering nothing new. Hashem created the foundations of kibbutz galuyot thru Herzl . Theodore - you see, his name was G-d loving.
ReplyDelete