YNet
As for the claim that no man is above the law, especially at a time when so many senior public figures have been brought before the courts, Ganot said:
Yair Shreider, 29, who was injured during Operation Cast Lead while serving in a paratrooper regiment; he was also scornful of the claim. According to Shreider:
'What about Beersheba professor?'
As for the claim that no man is above the law, especially at a time when so many senior public figures have been brought before the courts, Ganot said:
"There is no one above the law, but who can investigate the Torah?
"Is there one judge in this generation capable of investigating the Torah? Why are they so afraid of opening up this issue to public debate? Why come out in this fashion and arrest the rabbi? There is no justification."
Yair Shreider, 29, who was injured during Operation Cast Lead while serving in a paratrooper regiment; he was also scornful of the claim. According to Shreider:
"The president was arrested and tried for rape, prime ministers were investigated for theft and criminal issues; Rabbi Lior was investigated not for theft, rape or murder. He was investigated over his opinion.
'What about Beersheba professor?'
"I have yet to see an arrest warrant or investigation of a professor with a certain opinion. We are a democratic country and every person has a right to express their opinion, as long as they don't break the law." [....]
Rav Lior is a hero in my book. He sat on the beis din who converted the Texas woman who was forced by Tropper to have sex with him and his wife and friends.
ReplyDeleteThat was during the time when the RCA rabbis were so afraid of Tropper.
Rav Lior who lives in Kiryat Arba surrounded by Palestinians who would not hesitate one
second to kill him and his family, so he was not afraid of Tropper and his "purchased" rabbis
When was the last time a Beersheba professor told people it was their moral duty to kill a subset of Israel's children because they are bound to be raised to be our enemies?
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I don't see how people can be surprised that the gov't is lashing out at someone who refused to honor a subpoena over a book that incites to violence.
-micha
But Tyler, if the discussion is the government curtailing the right to free speech for "rabbis with Torah views", then the question isn't what you think of R' Lior, but what the gov't does.
ReplyDeleteAs I see it, it's very reasonable of them to treat this as incitement, which no country that I know of would allow under "free speech".
Aside from that, he was arrested for ignoring a subpoena. R' Lior escalated the legal matter beyond the original charge.
All that said, I do not think that R' Lior's attitude toward Palestinians is consistent with that which is described as "her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace."
-micha
Micha, have you read the book?
ReplyDeleteYes or no. I ask this with regard to your claim about what the book does.
On another topic, The Torah also incites to violence. That's reality. Some people live in a real world. Some people live in a comfy cushy pretend world where the battlefield is something they read about, and terrorist is only when the airport security makes a mistake.
I didn't make a claim about what the book does -- I made a claim about how the gov't views the book. It's not a matter of free speech if they're prosecuting for ignoring a subpoena for questioning on an incitement case.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I looked at parts of Torat haMelekh and couldn't handle it. I lack the intestinal fortitude.
Yes, we live in the real world. But our job is to elevate it, not sink to our enemy's level. There is a time to build and a time to destroy. Killing Palestinian children on the grounds of what they'll grow up to be isn't the "eis laaqor natua'".
-micha
"Some people live in a comfy cushy pretend world where the battlefield is something they read about, and terrorist is only when the airport security makes a mistake."
ReplyDeleteAnd some people pretend that the end justifies the means. Some people pretend that you can play with אחזרות and not get burnt.
Student V wrote (accused?): Some people live in a comfy cushy pretend world where the battlefield is something they read about, and terrorist is only when the airport security makes a mistake.
ReplyDeleteTo me, "terorrism" means waking up in the middle of the night with nightmares of this.
Have a good Shabbos,
-micha
Micha,
ReplyDeleteSo you automatically side with the Israeli govt's opinion? For what reason?
And you should also be aware that there are elected politicians who sit in the knesset who DO NOT agree with that position of most of the Israeli govt about that book or its author. They DO NOT agree with the treatment Rabbi Lior received, and they have spoken out against it. Such people include MKS Aryeh Eldad, and Michael Ben Ari.
Yirmiyahu, the question is not whether the ends justify the means, it is whether the Torah justifies the means.
ReplyDeleteMicha you mention that our "job" is to elevate the world, but I gather that the job of a Jewish army is to elevate the safety of the Jewish people.
Micha, thank God you survived. What an incredible story!
ReplyDeleteThis has nothing to do with the Israeli gov't.
ReplyDeleteIt has to do with my firm belief that being called a "mamlekhes kohanim" is not only a declaration of Jewish sanctity, but also spells out our relationship with the other nations. Priests take responsibility and love toward their congregants.
For more on my universalist attitude toward ethics, I have a blog entry on it.
Besides, killing isn't the only way to guarantee safety; it's often not even a more successful one.
But it is about the Israeli govt, since they are the ones doing the arresting, they (the "rule of law gang" as Moshe Feiglin calls them) are the ones claiming the law is on their side, and they are the ones characterizing their tyranny as the upholding of democracy.
ReplyDelete"Yirmiyahu, the question is not whether the ends justify the means, it is whether the Torah justifies the means. "
ReplyDeleteYour argument was based on the "real world", not Torah.
But the real world and Torah go together. The comfy pretend world has no relation to Torah, and that is exactly why "Torat Hamelech" says what it says and not what its detractors are saying.
ReplyDelete