Wednesday, April 4, 2012

Rav Schachter: Withholding get is serious aveira

Plight of the Agunah - video

See from 40 minutes - 50 minutes where he states that not giving a wife a get in the case of ma'os alei is a serious aveira. That there are three levels of pressure - where the gemora says a divorce is required then the husband can be beaten. In cases where gemora doesn't say to force a get - you have the procedures  of Rabbeinu Tam - which is to put in him cherem and destroy his livelihood  - but that isn't done today. The third level is to humiliate him with demonstrations etc etc. He claims the 3rd level can be used in the case of ma'os  alei -where the wife simply doesn't want to remain married to him

41 comments :

  1. Who does RHS claim as his sources in the Rishonim/Acronim?

    And who does RHS claim supports this position from contemporary Gedolim?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Rav Sternbuch agrees in chelek 5 about it being an aveira….I posted about this in a previous post. The big question is can someone find me a source showing that humiliation would produce a posul GET bedieved if the husband gives into to the humiliation…I searched and came up empty. The Chazon Ish, mentions the Rashba but Rav Sturnbuch says the girsa is wrong and the word humiliation is not in the Rashba. Also the Chazon Ish holds that bedeived the GET is valid in this case according to Rav Sternbuch…

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is ridiculous. The word humiliation does appear in the Rashbo 7:414 and it is quoted by the Radvaz, the Bais Yosef author of the Shulchan Aruch and the Chazon Ish. The fact that a Rivosh may not include some words while he quotes a Rashbo does not change the words in the Rashbo quoted by the above authorities. I supply the sources for the above in the Hebrew letter on my website getamarriage.com.

      Delete
  3. Schlachter what about the terrible aveiroh of going to arko'oys without a valid heter, what about the terrible aveiroh of these women being moyser terrible lies on their husbands, what about the terrible averiroh of taking money they are taking through aro'oys which they are not entitled to al pi halochoh, what about the terrible aveiroh of these women bankrupting their husbands and their families in having to hire expensive lawyers which they can't afford?

    What about the terrible aveiroh of these women preventing their children from seeing their fathers regularly?

    What about the terrible aveiroh that you have performed against Aharon Friedman by being mevazeh him berabim for no reason?

    Schlachter you are a disgrace to your parents and ganz klal yisroel.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I have listened to 3 shiurim by Rav Schachter on the topic and he has said 3 different things in each shiur.

    listen to the newest one:
    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/774176/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Fighting_The_Agunah_Crisis:_A_Panel#

    Shiur 1 that you initially posted on the blog) he talked about dead marriages and one can do basically anything to the husband in a dead marriage and the gemara and shulchan aruch cases are only talking about when the marriage is when they are still living together.

    Shiur 2 plight of agunah: humiliation is not even the harchakas of R'tam which you just quoted.

    Shiur 3: given last week:

    Minute 23-24...he now claims that he is actually following the harchakas of R'tam and mentions that Chacham Ovadia Yosef has a teshuva that says one can humiliate the husband in these cases. (I found Yabea Omer 8:25 where he says one can do the harchakas in a case of meos Alai but he doesn't say to have rallies or anything more than announcements like the actual harchakas of R'tam etc! I was midiak from the teshuva of Yabia Omer 8:25 that the harchakas were for the entire city only...he does not say nationwide!)

    This is a major twist in his shitta because according to this..if the husband leaves town..than they must leave him alone..as the Darchei Moshe, Levush, and Gra all learn the harchakas of R'tam are kefia unless one gives the man a way out if he leaves town....that basically means the humiliating has to be in 1 town..going national isn't so pashut..going after family members in 1 town and him in another town is kefia according to R'tam.
    I really can't believe that now he is saying humiliating is part of the harchakas of R'tam.


    I tried defending him but feel something is wrong if in 3 shiurim on the topic he gives 3 different heterim for what he is doing and 2 of them blatantly contradict each other.


    Listen for yourself and tell me if you hear what I heard,
    Yitzy Hillel

    ReplyDelete
  5. What if the woman you are married to is a shrew and you don't want to give her a get for the benefit of your fellow man so they cannot have the misfortune of marrying her? Then wouldn't it be a mitzvah?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Your fellow man should know to be very careful about get involved with a divorcee. "The second is not like the first, This one sent a wicked woman from his house, and this one took her in" (from memory, see rashi on the pessukim of divorce).

    There is no justification to withhold a get as a way to protect others or to otherwise influence completely external events. Your job is to educate people about why women divorce and what to look out for, and then let them look out for themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Stan- I don't know what is driving you, but I can assure you that you are not adding anything to this debate. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other and have not paid all that much attention to the facts of this case, but everytime I scroll down the comments to a related post, there you are- bellowinbg like a drunkard. If you aren't capable of making a coherent point like an adult, why not leave the floor to those who are? Did you not read Pitputim's words to you earlier?

    pitputim Apr 1, 2012 10:56 PM
    "Stan, your unbridled hate is contemptible. I don't know who this Posek is (and I do NOT understand why he is nameless? R' Eidensohn?) However, the more you post with this mode of vituperative spiffllication, the less I and I dare say others will pay any attention to what you have to write."

    Seconded.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Shaul shapira and saul:

    If the violation of many halochos which are being ignored by GetOra and Schlachter and reminding people and highlighting how single issue (and the wrong issue) and biased GetOra and Schlachter are, is according to you considered not adding to the debate then that just shows how sick you are.

    I know many men who are suffering terrible injustice since the US landscape there is so hostile both the arko'oys landscape and the corruption of the YU Schlachter crowd and the Ralbag/ Belsky/ Brooklyn crowd and you call me a drunkard due to my protesting. I am reminded of what Eli called Chana. But you who think this is a theoretical academic debate when these thugs need to be exposed are the real problem.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "But you who think this is a theoretical academic debate when these thugs need to be exposed are the real problem."

    Stan- That's the problem. You're not presenting any facts. All you're doing is shrieking arkoyos. Can't you understand that no one is going to listen to some garbage from an anonymous blogger who doesn't provide a single source? Either put up or kindly tone down!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Dear Moderator - I presume Kavod HaRav Eidensohn,

    On this case I take not sides, hold no particular view or opinion.
    However, it seems to me incorrect to publish comments which are Mevazeh Talmidei Hachamim, which perhaps we may all have occasionally done, but it is a serious aveirah nonetheless.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Shaul Shapiro/ Eddie you want sources you ignoramouses here they are:

    1)Hamegaleh ponim le'torah shelo k'halocho ein lo cheilek le'oylom habo:

    here are a few examples of Schlachter/ BDA/ GetOra being oyver:
    a)issuing fake siruvim on men whose wives are in arko'oys under the policy of BIFURCATION - they bifurcate the get issue and all other issues including monetary and custody issues and ignore the arko'oys part. a load of **** which has no basis in "normative halocho quote, unquote. the opposite actually holds "ain nizkokkin lo" see choshen mishpot 26, seif alef, rema.
    (principle of lo tzias dina also applies). (ask the "godol" of the american mo'etzes aharon shechter (no relation to schlachter) who failed to come to Rav Moshe's bais din when he was summonsed there over the dismissal of rav Shlomo Carlebach (not singer -his cousin) many many years ago and that is why Veretzky did not have to go to a din torah over bar matzrah principle.)
    b) issuing fake siruvim on men they have never been mazmin to a din torah who are the nitvah and it is brought down in shulchan oruch that the custom is to send 3 hazmonos and definitely not zero (schlachter himself is guilty of this)Halochoh is that the issuer of a fake siruv is put in nidui himself which rav Gestetner did but Daas Torah would not put it up and in the light of schlachter's egregious infringements of halochoh should please reconsider.
    c) they use secular law instead of shulchan oruch -masneh al ma she'kosuv be'torah even if both parties want - see shut ho'rashbo as quoted in the bais yosef le'halocho in choshen mishpot as not only being ossur but being oyker kol ha'torah kulo and total rishus.
    d) "forcing" men to sign their stupid pre-nup that all the gedolei eretz yisroel have rejected (and don't quote the rabbanut so called rabbis; approvals)
    e)not informing men that they are entitled to din and do not have to agree to peshoroh (admittedly many botei din are guilty of this) in order to decide themselves based on thier own vaule system how much to award to the woman with no real basis in halochoh
    f) allowing toyanim who are mechalelei shabbos simply because they are lawyers who teach their clients to lie (lo sihyeh k'orchei ha'dayonim) and many of these lawyers are very corrupt.
    g) refusing to accept that most poskim including rav elyashiv, the chazon ish, brisker rov held that mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get or do anything to put pressure to force a get and certainly not to embarras someone over even if you disagree in your bais din. to be continued

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. c) they use secular law instead of shulchan oruch -masneh al ma she'kosuv be'torah even if both parties want - see shut ho'rashbo as quoted in the bais yosef le'halocho in choshen mishpot as not only being ossur but being oyker kol ha'torah kulo and total rishus.
      Ok the Yaskil Avdei quotes the Ben Ish Hai's Rave Peilim here, which states to use the Memshallah(govt) to obtain support payments for the woman until the man gives a divorce.
      חלק ו' דף ק"ה סימן כד
      בהביאו דברי הגאון האדיר בספר רב פעלים ח"ד אה"ע סימן ע' שכ' בנדונו וז"ל ומפורש בדברי המבי"ע אע"ג דאונס האחד אינו בדין, מ"מ אם הוא ברשות ב"ד ומגדר מילתא, כדין קרינן ביה, וכו' הנה כי כן בנידון השאלה, אשר מע' מטילים עליו חייוב מזונות לארוסתו ע"י הממשלה, חשיב זה כדין יען שאתם עושים זאת בעבור תקנת בנות ישראל, מה"ע רלכן נראה אם אחר שראה זה שהוא מתחייב לתת מזונות או לארוסתו נתרצה מאיליו לגרש כדי לפטור עצמו ממזונות ואין זה נקרא גט מעושה
      So was the Ben Ish Hai wrong? Considering he is the accepted halakha in the Sephardic world(just ask Rav Ovadia Yosef about his troubles when he tried to disagree with what the Ben Ish Hai wrote) who are you to say there is no basis for this in halakha?

      d) "forcing" men to sign their stupid pre-nup that all the gedolei eretz yisroel have rejected (and don't quote the rabbanut so called rabbis; approvals)

      Which "Rabbinut" Rabbis do you really want to insult? Please go stand in front of Porat Yosef and proclaim that any of the previous Sephardi chief Rabbis were apikores as you seem to so freely proclaim here. If it wasn't forbidden by halakha we could lay bets on how many minutes it would be before you had your legs broken, most likely as the Sephardi Gedolim of Porat Yosef stood by looking on in approval.

      Your anger is unwarranted because you seem to be wholly ignorant of halakhic developments in the last 500yrs.

      If you want to tell me that Ashkenazi poskim rule differently, then fine, but then you have to say eilu v'eilu. You cannot simply negate the halakhic decisions of the leaders of 2/3 of the Jewish world.

      Delete
    2. "Ok the Yaskil Avdei quotes the Ben Ish Hai's Rave Peilim here, which states to use the Memshallah(govt) to obtain support payments for the woman until the man gives a divorce."

      Using the government to enforce a decision is very different than enforcing the government's decision.
      Again, you are showing a serious misunderstanding of the material.

      "Please go stand in front of Porat Yosef and proclaim that any of the previous Sephardi chief Rabbis were apikores as you seem to so freely proclaim here. If it wasn't forbidden by halakha we could lay bets on how many minutes it would be before you had your legs broken, most likely as the Sephardi Gedolim of Porat Yosef stood by looking on in approval."
      well, that must settle it, that little thought experiment leaves no room for misunderstanding.

      Delete
    3. Actually Binyamin, by the logic that Stan has repeatedly displayed, any use of a secular court is Arkaot. When that is not the case. Again see the Yaskil Avdei Vol 6 siman 8 of Hoshen Mishpat, where he specifically deals with when we can call the use of a secular court Arkaot. In short he brings a case of a Jew suing another in court to receive rent payments before going to a B"D. His answer is that anytime one can say that they are entitled to such a thing min hatorah, we cannot call it Arkaot.
      As a father has to pay for his childrens food, clothing and education min hatorah(see Yaskil Avdei Vol 2 Even Ha Ezer Siman 8 seif 2 Din of a Moredet), you cannot call it Arkaot.
      The only question is whether she can take him to court to pay for her support after 12mos have elapsed and she still hasn't given her a get. The way it appears to me is simple, if the B"D has not ruled that she is entitled to it, then no. If they have, then yes. Though I could see room for disagreement there(though I think it would undermine the authority of a B"D, but as they are lacking Semikha perhaps one could make the argument).
      well, that must settle it, that little thought experiment leaves no room for misunderstanding. What misunderstanding? You cannot call generations of Sephardic gedolim apikorus because they do not agree with your parochial view. You can say Ashkenazim don't hold that way... that's fine. You can say that you and your Rabbi don't hold that way... that's also fine. However to say that generations of Gedolim are apikorus because you disagree with them... that is not a misunderstanding, that is arrogance. Rav Shach made the mistake of denigrating Sephardi Gedolim(though nowhere near as arrogantly) once... Degel HaTorah has never recovered.

      Delete
    4. f) allowing toyanim who are mechalelei shabbos simply because they are lawyers who teach their clients to lie (lo sihyeh k'orchei ha'dayonim) and many of these lawyers are very corrupt.
      I'm not sure how that makes them Mechalalei shabbat, however instructing or helping anyone to lie before a B"D is a very serious aveira with that I agree.

      g) refusing to accept that most poskim including rav elyashiv, the chazon ish, brisker rov held that mo'us olai is not a reason to force a get or do anything to put pressure to force a get
      There's no reason to concede something that is not true. The Yaskil Avdei(who brings numerous sources from the generations previos), The Ben Ish Hai(who frankly trumps, at least for Sephardim everyone on your list), Rav Ovadia Yosef, have all said that there are various ways that it can be done according to halakha. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Rav Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Yaakov Moshe Hillel both agree(d), simply because they both have stated several times, that one should never deviate from the letter of the Ben Ish Hai.
      and certainly not to embarras someone over even if you disagree in your bais din. to be continued

      By and large I agree. There is the teshuva of Rav Ovadia Yosef to deal with in Yabia Omer 8:25, but that to me seems to be giving a B"D a limited power of emarrassment not any organization or any single Rav. Even then the person has to have been instructed by the B"D to give a Get.

      Delete
    5. "I'm not sure how that makes them Mechalalei shabbat, however instructing or helping anyone to lie before a B"D is a very serious aveira with that I agree."
      Yet the Rabbanut you defend is 100% complicit in this.

      You should really broaden you horizons beyond the Yaskeil Avdi.

      And link to the Ben Ish Chai. It is hard to believe he really said that. And I will not bite on your race-baiting and I suggest you drop it. We are all Americans here and really don't care much about Ashkenazi/Sepharadi except as it affects custom and community. (Like the fact we are discussing a case between Ashkenazim, so all your Sepharadi sources are not really relevant to the case at hand. But for the general discussion, cut it out.)

      And I know you won't answer this question, as you have not answered anything else, but I present it to the general readership: what's up with trying to find halachic ways to get around the halacha? The halacha says don't force the get. So don't do it. Why is anyone trying to find some work-around? And isn't trying to find a work-around a clear statement that you consider the halacha morally wrong?

      Delete
    6. Yet the Rabbanut you defend is 100% complicit in this. What is with you and Rabbanut? I don't defend Rabbanut, I present and defend Sephardic sources because I am a Sephardi Rav. Whether those Gedolim have at some time past or not been appointed to a position in Rabbanut really doesn't concern me. Rabbanut is complicit in a lot of stupidity. You have an Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi today(selected for that position by Rav Eliashiv by the way) who's conversions are not recognized by Rabbanut or the State of Israel... So no I don't defend Rabbanut.

      Anyway on to substance
      what's up with trying to find halachic ways to get around the halacha? The halacha says don't force the get. So don't do it. Why is anyone trying to find some work-around? And isn't trying to find a work-around a clear statement that you consider the halacha morally wrong? Simply put, that isn't what the halakha says. The Gemarra says we beat a man until he decides he really wants to give a get. Various Poskim through the ages have understood that we force a Get. I heard from Rav Yosef Yitzchak Kaplan(he's a fairly public figure you can probably email him to confirm) that the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe said it was a mitzvah to force a man to give a get, so it isn't all on the Sephardi side either. Rav Ovadia Yosef in numerous Teshuvot has said so(all have been quoted here and ignored). The Ben Ish Hai(as referenced above and in other places) has said so. Rav Moshe Feinstein(again cited here and, quite ironically, ignored) said so. So it is not so clear that the halakha is as you claim.
      As far as why I know the Yaskil Avdei so well(and why I quote it so often) is that in preparing for Pesach I really don't have time to look up sources. However, I was fortunate to learn under two of the successors of the Yaskil Avdei, Rav Kaduri, and then the Yaskil Avdei's son Rav Shalom M. Hedayya. So I am a good bit more Baki in it, then say Rav Ovadia's Teshuvot, since the Shitta of the Yaskil Avdei has been the shitta over the various Yeshivot I have learned in since coming to Israel.

      Delete
  12. continued

    2) being oyver on hamalbin penei chaveiroh be'rabim ein lo cheilek le'oylom habo
    -not only do they embarass the husband unjustifiably as we have all seen in the friedman case as in so many other cases but family members as well)

    3) Failure to protest women in arko'oys and failure to make them pay their husbands legal costs. There is a chiyuv in the torah to protest evil and corruption ie to be mocheh. Furthermore lo nichtam g'zar dinom eloh al he'chomos (dor hamabul). there is a chiyuv on bais din to follow the torah and how is it that they never enfoce a woman in arko'oys to pay her husband's legal fees?

    You guys need to wake up. Unlike schlachter I do not purport to be a godol. However the gedolim of eretz yisroel when they saw chillul shabbos only used to protest "shabbos shabbos". likewise i will protest arko'oys arko'oys until the corruption stops. I do not need to prove how much or how little I know. One is obligated to follow the Torah and I will protest evil - simple as that.

    This posting though should give you enough food for thought on the utter kefirah of the MO world. If one denies even a single letter of the Torah one is an apikores. These guys can't handle a single par'sha dealing with divorce which they constantly try to rewrite. What is next mechias amolek, destroying the shivo amim, nidah, that they will take exception to these biryonim?

    ReplyDelete
  13. Stan- That's the problem. You're not presenting any facts. All you're doing is shrieking arkoyos.

    Wait - that is presenting a fact, and its a real problem.

    It is the pro-divorce crowd who is out on facts, and never responds to the facts offered.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Moderator - I do not know your policy on outside blogs, this is a link to a christian blog which often discusses the complicity of the church in divorce, and a lot of what he says is quite relevant to us.

    Stan is right to be angry, and the question is why so few people share his anger.
    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/a-case-for-anger/

    It is a christian blog, but his message is just as relevant to us. The pro-divorce crowd here is strongly supporting and trying to force us to accept the secular divorce system, in the spirit of “Azoi vi s’christlet zich, azoi yiddelt zich” - I hope none of Shachter's supporters will respond by saying its different by us and we should not pay attention to what this divorce system has done to destroy secular society.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Michael tzaddok is not only an ignoramous whom Binyomin completely obliterated but a complete distorter who frankly is a sickening tzedooki. Previously he stated as an unchallenged fact that a husband is chayav bimzonos for a moredes with zero qualifications to deliberately mislead the reader. I then challenged him and all of a sudden it changed to being only after a year if no get was given. When asked for a posek he quotes someone whom while I am sure may have been possibly a great talmid chochom is a shitas yochid who is completely obscure in the ashkenazi world. where is maran beit yosef on the matter tzeddoki? tzaddok obviously knows absolutely nothing about p'sak despite denigrating me about not knowing anything about developments in halocho in the last 500 years. Since when do we rely ona shitas yochid when over half a millenia every single posek says the complete opposite in literally tens of t'shuvas. While it is interesting as a purely academic footnote that there is such an opinion, when I told it to a leading dayan he laughed since this has never been applied anywhere.

    Yes perhaps I should have said every single ashkenazi godol rejected the pre-nup of the RCA. Perhaps one or 2 rabbanut employees who are invovled all the time in gittei meuseh support it. maybe dichovsky supports it. irrelevant.The brisker rov said you could not rely whatsoever on the psakim of rabbanut employees as they had to please their employer the t'zioni govt which in many instances in l'hepech of the torah.

    by the way tzoddok, you thug who threatens violence, why is there no clause in the pre-nup requiring the woman to pay $150 a day if she goes to arko'oys? Becuse it is completely biased piece of garbage like everything else YU does. You chevra are frankly wack jobs!

    Now answer all the other points in my being castigated unfairly for not mentioning all the issurim of arko'oys, chomos and mesiarah as if it would make any difference to you and your YU crowd.

    Stand up for the halochoh for once tzedoki.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Those who Psak according the Yaskil Avdei:
      Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul, Rav Yaakov Moshe Hillel, Rav Moshe Tzedaka, Rav Yaakov Shknazi.
      Meanwhile the Yaskil Avdei brings numerous sources from the generations before.
      So that is hardly a Daat Yachid.

      I have threatened no violence, I warned you of the consequences your statements would have if you ever stepped out from behind the shield of anonymity, and said those things anywhere on the street of Jerusalem. Please go tell any of the poskim listed above(more than half of them are not and have never been employed by the state) that you know better than the Yaskil Avdei or the Ben Ish Hai. Please...
      But you won't because you won't be able to use your anger(at least not safely) and you will not be able to shout them down with insults and denigration.
      Mostly however, you never will, because you don't want your little fantasy of the supremacy of your parochial view to ever be challenged.

      Delete
  16. My alleged anger when men are forced to spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars and bankrupt themselves and their fasmiles just to see their children a couple of hours a week because a secular judge believes all the **** that the wife says how dangerous the husband is to the children which is accepted as fact and the husband is forced to pay forensics, lawless guardians, other psychologists and all essentially bribable and part of the gray train who need to be fed. Meanwhile the wife hasn't produced a single thread of evidence and in many instances is far from the best mother and often very far from the safest.

    And what do the michael t'zedokki and YU/ GetOra/ Schlachter side do? They shout aguna, aguna, invariably falsely. They could not care less about the issurim involved in arko'oys, the pain of the false mesirah, the pain of a father essentially losing his children, etc. How many fthers who dont have access to their children for years for shabbos and yom-tov Pesach included?

    Exactly as it was written about Shaul hamelech. You have rachmonus on amoleik - those in arko'oys, in the wrong place. Now you will be cruel to those who deserve the rachmonos, the men who are facing a multi billion dollar divorce indusrty and stand no chance. Where are the rabbis? worrying about aguna! worrying about cheirem d'rabeinu gershom which expired according to many poskim 100's of years ago, frankly worrying about being crowd pleasers, Shclachter or allegedly lining their own pockets, ralbag, izzie etc.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Tzaddok you are lying. you already lied once before on this blog making a blanket statement that a moredes gets mezonos without clarifying that the p'sak was only after a year. Furthermore show me that they pasken like this in this case of mezonos not that they generally quote him in other p'sakim on different matters. Send the individual p'sakim of each of these rabbis on m'zonos to daas torah and he will surely email them to me.

    however how can that possibly be the halochoh in a case where a woman has gone to arko'oys and has lost all rights in bais din which is the normal case in the US? which bais din is allowed to enforce such a ruling while she is persona non grata in bais din so clearly you have misunderstood the p'sak.

    Furthermore the vast majority of purportedly frum people in the US are ashkenazim and this is the background where this discussion takes place. throwing sefardi poskim who are totally irrelevant to this discussion not only adds no value but actually obfuscates from the real issues.

    however since you have quoted sefardi poskim then I guess we don't even have to worry about a heter meah rabonim in the case of a moredes since sefardim are not subject to the cheirem of rabbenu gershom so then we can based on your logic apply this to ashkenazim inappropriately.

    furthermore you/ BDA/GetOra/ Schlachter/ YU cannot have it both ways. if you are such feminists and hold a woman is exactly equivalent to a man, then the woman should be completely capable of supporting herself since in any case the majority of college graduates are women so there really isn't a need for mezonos anyway.

    get real go and post your irrelevant psakim on some morrocon website. they are not relevant here - in fact they just obfuscate from the real issues.

    lastly you misquote rav ovadyiah - he is very against arko'oys and has publicly on several occasions stressed the seriousness of the issur and the chilul hashem and loss of olam habo and would never support a woman in arko'oys so stop your lying already.

    ReplyDelete
  18. By the way tzedokki how come maran beit yosef is not on your list? pretty obvious isn't it.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Tzaddok you are lying. you already lied once before on this blog making a blanket statement that a moredes gets mezonos without clarifying that the p'sak was only after a year.
    Not true. I said a Maos Ali, which is not necessarily a moredet. Though you don't seem to get that.

    lastly you misquote rav ovadyiah - he is very against arko'oys and has publicly on several occasions stressed the seriousness of the issur and the chilul hashem and loss of olam habo and would never support a woman in arko'oys so stop your lying already.

    Rav Ovadiah Yosef? Where did I say he was for arkaot? Ultimately I would have to check the words of Rav Ovadia Yosef, but until I see it in writing, not just some vague claim that he said such and such publicly, I am going to assume that he went with his own Rav(who was the Yaskil Avdei). So do you actually have a source in one of Rav Ovadia's books where he disagrees with the Yaskil Avdei on Arkaot or do I have to take your word for it?

    get real go and post your irrelevant psakim on some morrocon website. they are not relevant here - in fact they just obfuscate from the real issues.
    Here comes the real issue. First you deny that any exist. Then when shown that they do. You claim that they are Apikorus Rabbis of some sort, or equate them with MO(at least that's what I think you mean when you say BDA/GetOra/ Schlachter/ YU). Then when shown that they are actually mainstream for 2/3 of Jews in the world, you find some other way to loophole your way out of admitting that you have been incorrect because you were ignorant of the sources. Nevermind that Sephardi and Ashkenazi poskim actually do quote each other and consider each other in making their Psak Halakha.

    By the way tzedokki how come maran beit yosef is not on your list? pretty obvious isn't it. It ought to be. See the Leshem writes in his Sefer Biurim Shaar 5 ot 7, that there is something called Yerida HaDorot(maybe you've heard of it). Thus in the matters of Torat Nigleh he says we decrease in our quality, and he gives this specific example. Works like the Shulchan Arukh were written and intended for Baalei HaBatim, and in fact he says that the Shulchan Aruch was intended to be chozered every month. However, because of the Yerida HaDorot it is impossible for us to understadn the Shulchan Arukh today without many many meforshim. That what was Pshat for them, takes much Iyun for us. Now if that were the case for the Leshem how much more so for us. So yes, instead of trying(and probably erring as you have so adequately demonstrated with your nonsense arguments) to come with what Maran meant on my own, I actually read the poskim that have gone between Maran and myself over the last 500yrs(you know those that you ignore). So when Gedolei Yisrael and Tzadikim such as the Ben Ish Hai, and the Yaskil Avdei(with all of the sources that he quotes, and signed off on by his own father especially considering those that called his father their Rav) says that Maran means X, and some anonymous blogger says that Maran means Y, believe it or not, I am actually going to go with those great Rabbis.

    ReplyDelete
  20. To everyone else. Please actually read what Stan says here:
    And what do the michael t'zedokki and YU/ GetOra/ Schlachter side do? They shout aguna, aguna, invariably falsely. They could not care less about the issurim involved in arko'oys, the pain of the false mesirah, the pain of a father essentially losing his children, etc. How many fthers who dont have access to their children for years for shabbos and yom-tov Pesach included?

    Exactly as it was written about Shaul hamelech. You have rachmonus on amoleik - those in arko'oys, in the wrong place. Now you will be cruel to those who deserve the rachmonos, the men who are facing a multi billion dollar divorce indusrty and stand no chance. Where are the rabbis? worrying about aguna! worrying about cheirem d'rabeinu gershom which expired according to many poskim 100's of years ago, frankly worrying about being crowd pleasers, Shclachter or allegedly lining their own pockets, ralbag, izzie etc.


    Through all the various attempted discussions on this issue, this has been the response of the camp that would strip women of any rights whatsoever. They claim infallibility in the guise of Torah M'Sinai(so if you argue you are clearly an apikorus). They claim to have a consensus of Rabbanim/Poskim(but they can never give actual sources, just faint allusions). Then, if you see through that smoke and mirror charade, they open up with venom and insult. When they are given sources, they say that you are twisting them to fit some sort of odd philosphy that is solely your own. Or that they are irrelevant. Or that they are a Daat Yachid(apparently we are supposed to believe that the Ben Ish Hai is a Daat Yachid).
    What they will not do is have an open and honest debate. If anyone can show where Stan has actually quoted, with a source in a sefer that someone could possibly hope to look up, a single Teshuva from a Posek, any Posek on this(not counting being expected to understand the Shulchan Arukh the way he sees it) please point it out. Though trying to find it will be an exercise in futility, because even above where he listed his sources he listed no sources.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Once again you lie. 1)You have not proved one thing. Show me where all these poskim hold like you claim they hold. you quoted one opinion that is completely irrelevant to the ashkenazim and then threw in all the sefardi poskim that you have heard of or that existed in the last 500 years. They are totally irrelevant to north america even if they held like you claim they hold which they couldn't because the main issue in NA is woman going to arko'oys and then trying to claim gittin mezonos etc. once again go and post your obfuscation on a morrocon site where it belongs. it is irrelevant to us ashkenazim. yes there is yeridas hadoros and none of the poskim before including the gro, the noda be'yudah, bach, pnei yehoshua yes none of them came up with the interpertation you allenge and which is indefensible.
    2) your misinterpretation of p'sakim see binyomin above for example is too widespread for you to be relied upon for anything.

    your hints and threats that violence should be used upon me are disgraceful. should i call up dovid cohen and ask him for a heter to call the police and file against you? women have obtained heterim from him for much less!

    ReplyDelete
  22. the poskim before including the gro, the noda be'yudah, bach, pnei yehoshua yes none of them came up with the interpertation you allenge and which is indefensible.
    Really? So Rabbeinu Tam is a nobody? It's not that I quote a single source, its that I quote a single source who brings a wealth of sources from generations prior. Granted I only wrote the Maskana above from his shorter Teshuva on the subject. Here is his full discussion listing and discussing the various opinions of the Rishonim and Acharonim until arriving at the halakha l'maase
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=960&st=&pgnum=128
    If you can refute every one of his proofs(and those of the sources he brings from generations prior) then do so, otherwise accept that you are mistaken.

    your misinterpretation of p'sakim see binyomin above for example is too widespread for you to be relied upon for anything.
    All Binyomin demonstrated above is that one can have a Yeshiva education and still be ignorant of major developments in Halakha. Such as the Takanat Bnot Yisrael, which is roughly the Sephardi version of the Gezeira of Rabbeinu Gershom.
    you quoted one opinion that is completely irrelevant to the ashkenazim and then threw in all the sefardi poskim that you have heard of or that existed in the last 500 years. They are totally irrelevant to north america even if they held like you claim they hold which they couldn't because the main issue in NA is woman going to arko'oys and then trying to claim gittin mezonos etc. once again go and post your obfuscation on a morrocon site where it belongs. it is irrelevant to us ashkenazim.
    1) The blog owner, in case you weren't aware is Israeli. This blog is as much Israeli as it is NA.
    2) There are no Sephardim in NA? There are tens of thousands of Sephardic families in NA. In many cities there dayyanim are intermixed with those of Ashkenazim on the various B"D. So it is very much relevant to the discussion at hand. You would simply prefer it not be because it is inconvenient to the point you would like to prove.
    your hints and threats that violence should be used upon me are disgraceful. should i call up dovid cohen and ask him for a heter to call the police and file against you? women have obtained heterim from him for much less!
    This is actually laughable. I have not and will never threaten violence against you or advocate for it. However if you really want to violate that earlier Kol Kore that you held so dear when it was on your side, please call the police and try to say that someone from another country, who has no idea to your actual identity is threatening violence against you. If you do me the favor of recording their response, I would be grateful, as it will make for an awesome laugh.
    Afterward please see a therapist, Rabbi Eidensohn perhaps, because you obviously have some issues that need to be worked through.

    ReplyDelete
  23. So called "Stan": Now I know what's driving you- an unabiding contempt for any Rav who feels differently than you, even if they've forgotten more Halacha than you'll ever know. If you had limited you're filth to just Rav Hershel Shachter Shlita, I might have thought you had a point. Now I see what you're really all about.

    "(ask the "godol" of the american mo'etzes aharon shechter"

    "(and don't quote the rabbanut so called rabbis; approvals)"

    "This posting though should give you enough food for thought on the utter kefirah of the MO world."

    "get real go and post your irrelevant psakim on some morrocon website. they are not relevant here - in fact they just obfuscate from the real issues."

    "should i call up dovid cohen and ask him for a heter to call the police and file against you? women have obtained heterim from him for much less!"



    Rasha! Shaygetz! Menuval! Apikores! Take your Stan-ned up comedy elsewhere!!!!!


    ... good lord, I'm starting to sound like Stan!

    ReplyDelete
  24. Tzaddok you seriously need help. It is p[ikuaxh nefesh you can even go on pesach for it.

    I quoted the shulchan oruch choshen mishpot 26 and the rema, the shut horashbo in the same seif, the bais yosef in the same seif, the pirkei ovos on being malbin penei chaveiro be'rabim, the pirkei ovos and ovos de'reb nosson on hamegaleh ponim le'torah shelo ke'halochoh. Are the shulchan oruch, rema, rashbo, pirkei ovos and ovos de'reb nosson not good enough for you?

    What he accuses me of he is actually guilty of - supporting women in arko'oys where the hashkofo is basically no rights other than crumbs. what my position all along has been is that women need to go to bais din and this is not news to the tzedoki. yet he claims that i hold women have no rights. so clearly he is equating bais din as taking away all the rights of women. he is contemptible.

    get help please tadok, you really need it.

    ReplyDelete
  25. tzedoki i never responded to your previous utterly claim that it is muttar to bypass bais din and go directly to arko'oys in the case of divorce because there is a choyv borur for the father to pay child support. you equate this with a case of a claim for a fixed amount such as a rental payment. this clearly shows how disingenious you are.

    firstly who awarded the children to the mother? why does the father have to pay the mother? if the mother is holding the children shelo ke'din, the mother must return the children and the father does not have to reward the mother for halachik kidnapping! the boys go to the father after age 6 (yes there are differing opinions but this is the majority opinion). the chiyuv to pay for chinuch ends way before arko'oys makes the father pay (until age 21 in many instances) and rav moshe sternbuch has a teshuva completely opposite from you. none of the corrupt brooklyn arko'oys who favor the woman rely on your hetter.

    the mother invariably claims equitable distribution which is genaivo so clearly you are the apikores here with your fake hetter arko'os. what about the mother preventing the father from seeing his children k'neged halochoh is that not arko'oys? doesn't this involve mesirah? boy you sure will need some fancy footwork to get out od this one.

    here's the t'shuva

    http://mamzeralert.blogspot.com/2011/08/hidden-mamzeirim-amongst-us.html

    ReplyDelete
  26. lastly your sickening remarks against rav shach are reprehensible. the fact that shas disobeyed him brought in the labor govt. which led to the Oslo accords and who knows how many deaths and injuries. I would not want to be Deri or even Rav Ovadya and have to answer for this in shomayim.

    Even Deri asked for mechilah on this. As a previous blogger noted, your sickening attempts on racism on this blog are to be condemned in the most strong way possible.

    The majority of frum jews in the US are ashkenazi and not interested in your racism. stop wasting your time with your obfuscation. we all have nothing against sefardim but you are something else.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I will not get involved in further bashing of brooklyn rabbonim who have broken haochoh seriously regarding failure to show up in bais din, supporting people in arko'oys and performing mesirah as well as issuing fake heterim to go to arko'oys or be oyver mesirah or to cheat on taxes because that is not the matter at hand at the moment. so while i am in position of documents on these issues this serves to obfuscate from the issue of women being in arko'oys shelo k'din so i will not fall for shaul shapira's sickening attempts to bait me other than to say i condemn all violations of halochoh especially by rabbonim who purport to be gedolim but are not as judged by their actions.

    the facts in these cases are public knowledge so shaul shapira i am not a fake godol worshipper but look at what it says in halochoh.

    as for tzadok's attempts to claim i need to disprove rabbeinu tam or some other great gedolim. what nonsence. however most poskim have not held like rabbeinu tam. if he wants eact mekoros he should look for them himself. most people don't wear rabeinu tam tefillin. does that mean they disrespect him? i surely hope not.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Michael tzadok has successfully hijacked the thread to tell us about his great Rabbis, whose opinion he cannot defend.

    We came here to discuss people who destroy families in the name of our religion and this guy comes over for some cultural show and tell.

    But I figured it all out. In his mind Judaism starts with some obscure rabbi who is discovered by the Yaskil Avdi. His teachings are transmitted through Ovadiah Yosef and Michael Tzadok becomes the bearer of the true traditions. Shachter, I presume, relies on the teachings of Michael Tzadok, though by this point Txadok has contradicted himself, lied, and obfuscated so much that I don't know how anyone can figure out his teachings.

    To get back to the topic under discussion, we are talking about violating the integrity of Jewish law and breaking up families. Anyone who supports that has corrupted Judaism. If that includes well recognized rabbis, it is time we re-evaluate who the great rabbis are.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Since the blog owner has seen fit to continue to allow slanderous attacks against Gedolim, and a complete lack of Derek Eretz this will be my last post.

    I love the attempt at an insult of "Tzadoki" its actually quite funny as I literally am a Tzadoki, in the sense that I am direct descendant of Tzadok... but anyway.

    This may come as a bit of a surprise to some but I am no supporter of ORA, Rav Shachter, Rav Belsky, or in this instance Rav Kamenetski(though I believe he is a great Talmid Hakham, I believe he is on the wrong side of this issue). However, I don't think defaming Gedolim, slander, and various ad hominems are the best way to come to the root of the actual problem. They are Gedolim, whether you agree with them or not, and their decisions whether you agree with them or not, are based in halakha somewhere.

    Are they innovating, most definitely, but they are not inventing. Meaning that they have to have a halakhic basis for what they are saying. So if you really do want to understand where they went wrong and not just shriek Arkaot and Apikorus, then you really do need to start to deal with halakhic texts. Hence I and others have tried to bring various sources to try to see what possibly basis these Rabbanim think they have for what they are doing.

    For instance Rav Shachter continually quotes Rav Ovadiah Yosef(who we have again just seen defamed, while making a claim of racism on someone else... amazing). Now you can claim that since Rav Ovadia is Sephardi and Israeli he is irrelevant to the discussion. However, as long as Rav Shachter and ORA are going to be claiming him as there basis, he is by far not irrelevant, quite the contrary he is quite at the center of relevancy.

    See I would argue that there is actually a variety of opinion within what is accepted halakha on these issues. I would also argue that Rav Shacter et al are basing themselves off of that accepted halakha.

    This is why I brought actual sources, not just vague allusions to supposed teshuvot of Rav Ovadia(and of one of Rav Ovadia's Rabbanim who he feels a need to quote in a great majority of his own piskei Halakha, the Yaskil Avdei). Others have brought positions from Rav Moshe Feinstein and even Rav Shternbuch. It amazes me that someone who in the very recent past accused Rav Shternbuch(chas v'shalom) of selling out in order to enhance his legacy is now quoting him in his own defense, but I digress.

    See I was hoping that this discussion would actually get around to discussing and weighing the different opinions within accepted halakha so as to see where these Gedolim have deviated. Alas that does not appear as though it is going to happen. Instead any such attempt is met with the cry of arkoyot and apikorus, Gedolim are defamed, Rav Shternbuch(chas v'shalom) was accused of selling out. The Ben Ish Hai was called a Daat Yachid. Anything to avoid actually discussing the issues and to continue defaming Gedolim in some unholy crusade to prove a point.

    Well a point was proven. That point was Derekh Eretz Kadima L'Torah, and since there is such a basic lack of derekh eretz where a man would defame Rav Shternbuch, the Ben Ish Hai, Rav Ovadiah Yosef, the Yaskil Avdei(Gedolim and Tzadikim) and then think that he can embrace them when it fits, him. It is clear that there is no Torah here, nor will there be until the blog owner puts a stop to it, or the person changes his ways.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Tzedoki thanks for the post. here are the facts.

    Where exactly was rav Ovadyia defamed? You defamed Rav Shach and I pointed out that Rav Ovadyia made a very, very mistake by disagreeing with rav Shach and many lives were lost as a result. I mentioned this in a highly respectable fashion because of whom rav Ovadyia and what he represents when I could have gone to town about how those in the Ashkenazi world seized on this etc etc.

    You kept on presenting shitas that are totally not mekubal in the Ashkenazi world world wide but in fact you 1st seriously misrepresented them. When challenged you were forced to put in a major caveat but never apologized for deliberately misrepresenting the opinions of those you claim to hold so sacred to your audience.

    You tried to imply that those who disagreed with you were ignoramuses because they refused to get too theoretical (I have written a statistical treatise of 100's of pages of theory and this is not the place for theory but for applied halochoh). do you really think I have not read the opinions of rav chaim oyzer on a moredes and that he paskens that close to 4 years after you don't even need a heter meah rabonim and that most ashkenazi opinions hold that for a moredes the cheirem doesn't apply and that that was the universal opinion until the chasam sofer was worried about people thinking the cheirem should not apply and applied a lo plug for a series of years? I do need to show how much i know or don't know because I am secure in my intellectual and Torah knowledge.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Stan continued:

    You stated that I held women had no rights because I maintained they had to go to bais din therby very strongly imoplying that the shulchan oruch afforded insufficient rights to women incorrectly. if that isn't kefirah then what is?

    you wished that i should be seriously assaulted and completely belittled your own gedolim by claiming they would stand by enjoying the scene. frankly only a sick person would write such a thing.

    you failed to answer all the very strong point against the BDA including bifurcation, fake siruvim, ignoring the serious issurim of arko'oys and mesirah and forcing gittin when none is warranted when a woman is in arko'oys, and never awarding legal fees fora woman being in arko'oys and using secular laws k'neged the rashbo bais yosef.

    actually i wish you the very best. i hope you can continue to live in your deluded cocoon and have a wife who does not ever take you to arko'oys because if you have to suffer like the many men i know i doubt you have the stamina for the destruction that will be wrough upon you. you are very niave. i honestly hope that Hashem allows you to not pay the price for this later in life. good luck and learn to tell the truth. where did i denigrate rav sternbuch? you live in a fantasy world. chag sameach dude.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Stan , r ovodya blaims deri for misleading him on the oslo disaster , as said by his spokesman at the time, itzok sudri.

    ReplyDelete
  33. MSL, I have no bone to pick with rav ovadyia. the post was in response to a most sickening attack by the tzedoki on rav shach who is guilty of denigrating the previous godol hador.

    also where exactly did I denigrate the ben Ish Chai tzedoki. and rav ben tzion abba shaul et al?

    I merely pointed out that the p'sakim the t'zedoki that he alleges they made without supplying the documentation which i requested to verify this is a shita never applied anywhere in any bais din world wide is irrelevant.

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.