Thursday, July 31, 2008

Chabad - Atzmut was placed in a body II

This is an update from Chabad can only be understood from inside by someone who accepts their beliefs I

Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said...

Anyone who is intellectually honest enough to learn the sicha in context and see the sources from Chazal (e.g., that a malach is called Havayeh at the time of the shlichus) quoted in the sicha, instead of misquoting a phrase out of context (and usually mistranslating too--the original doesn't say "enclothed" but "vi er hot zich areingeshtelt"--"as he put himself") will see that the Rebbe is simply talking about the concept found in many earlier sources in Chazal etc. that Hashem is revealed to the world through the Tzaddik (not that the Tzaddik's guf is itself etc. ch"v, as some people here wish to twist it into saying).

As I said, there are many, many sources that corroborate this idea, and they are compiled in the sefer "Al Hatzaddikim," from Reb Avrohom Boruch Pevzner. If you are serious and intellectually honest about understanding this idea instead of using it as a reason to bash other Jews, I recommend you study this text.

It also seems no coincidence that the ones who insist on reading that intention into these words are the ones who've exposed themselves to Buddhism and Christianity.

Legufo shel inyan of the comparisons with other religions, someone who wants to go down that path will find comparisons galore between all Torah thinkers and those of other religions in numerous areas. And the reason is very simple: because all truth stems from Torah, which is absolutely true and perfect, and other religions l'havdil are a mixture of truth and falsehood. So if there is a certain comparison with Torah, so what? That's only to be expected, because that's where they draw their truth from.

Rabbi Micha Berger said...
Except that neither the original sichah nor "Al haTzaddiqim" stop at calling the mal'akh (angelic or human) Havayah. From the 2nd line of pg 3: "umetareitz, sherebbe hu memutzah hamechabeir VEHQB SHOREH BO" (emphasis mine).

You're downplaying the use of "Atzmus uMahus", to insure the listener knows we're not talking about Or Ein Sof.

Also, the closing words of section 2, "veHQBH shochein ad beqirbo".

And then chapter 3 begins with an explanation of "HQBH medabeir mitokh gerono shel Moshe in terms of the observation that since bitul eliminates the wall between man and G-d, it is HQBH speaking. Not it is "like" He is speaking. But that the wall between man and G-d is gone -- beyond the bitul of an eved in front of his king. Ad she'ein hatalmud chakham metzi'us atzmo kelal ukelal... (nr top of page 4) The person is gone, all that is left is G-d.

Yes, I think there is a fuzziness being used between saying the person is a merkavah (as the avos were), the person's BODY is a merkavah and the person is gone, the person being called G-d vs the person is god, etc... But that's just identifying the source of the fundamental error.

1 comment :

  1. I'm a bit confused as to what you are trying to say. The sefer's explanation is straightforward enough to me: It's saying that because of the tremendous bittul of the tzaddik to Hashem, Hashem is revealed in and through the Tzaddik.

    Thus, when the Tzaddik speaks, it is not he who speaks, but Hashem who speaks through him, and this is the same explanation for the pesukim that speak about malachim with shem Hashem, e.g., "bi nishbaati ne'um Hashem," which was said by the malach since it was in a state of tremendous bittul at the time of the shlichus. Not that the malach is literally Hashem, ch"v.

    So, too, with Tzadikim, that due to their tremendous bittul, Hashem speaks to us and is revealed to the world through them--but not that they are Hashem ch"v. It's really not so complicated if someone is open to it, and I see no fuzziness.


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