Teshuvos Vhanhagos 02:412) Question: Is it permitted to look at a clock on a Church for the correct time? Answer: It would appear that there is no problem with this since is was not made for the sake of idolatry but because many people pass by and it is on a high place so that it is easily seen. And therefore it was placed there as a public service and thus it would not be considered as serving idolatry or even drawing attention to idolatry. Though the Minchas Eliezar is lenient in such cases he nonetheless says it is best to be strict in practice. However it really should be prohibited according to halacha since it draws attention to idolatry as it is referred to as the Church clock. Our Sages learn from the verse, Do not to mention the name of other gods that it is prohibited to say “Wait for me next to a certain avoda zara.”as that gives it significance so surely one should not use something attached to idolatry. But perhaps in modern times when a clock is very common and everyone wears a watch, a clock on a church provides no attention to idolatry. However since it is still associated with idolatry it should still be prohibited. In addition if the clock is viewed as useful than that means that people want to preserve the church in order to be able to see the clock which is a separate prohibition Perhaps that doesn’t make it associated with idolatry but is merely a desire to have a clock in a high structure> Nevertheless there is a clear requirement to destroy idolatry and that which serves it but perhaps that only applies to |Israel where it is a mitzva to active search and destroy idolatry. In conclusion it is best to prohibit the use of a church clock since it is a separate mitzva to despise idolatry and when one benefits it is harder to despise
This paragraph encapsulates the problem with Chareidi p'sak
ReplyDeleteFirst part: It would appear that there is no problem with this since is was not made for the sake of idolatry
Second part: Multiple supports for that position.
Conclusion: it is best to prohibit the use of a church clock
Uh huh, sure. As I wrote decades ago, both OO and UO use the same methodology except the former always concludes that the issue is permitted and the latter that it's forbidden.
I would have thought that the issue is not so much the clock but the building it's attached to. If you look at the clock and then look at the rest of the building and admire its appearance, that would be an issue.
Even then, there are enough opinions that the "shituf" that the Chrisians practice, while forbidden for us, is permitted for them so is it really straight out avodah zarah anyway?
Yep, but the same Hareidim, would shout at you if you call their belief in the 10 divine sefiros as "shituf"..
DeleteGlad to see our two resident Jew haters are still going strong despite Elul, RH and YK staring them in the face. Haters are going to hate. No wonder Moshiach hasn't come.
DeleteYou know, adolescents usually equate criticism with hatred. Adults recognize that they're two different things. One can disagree or criticize without hating.
DeleteExcept, in fact, you do hate Chareidim. Be honest for once.
DeleteNeither KA or I hate Chareidim. I don't like Chareidism. I think it's a dysfunctional form of Torah observance designed by leaders who were unable to handle the burden of adapting Torah Judaism to changing times and willing to sacrifice large portions of the Jewish people for a small "Torah true" community. I don't like politicians and leaders who encourage their followers to live in poverty and deny them the opportunity to prosper. I don't like a system that declares that only it has the true understanding of Torah and God's will for us. All those things I don't like. But the individual Chareidi? I judge him just like I do everyone else.
DeleteBilaam, you should add RDE to your list
Deletehttps://daattorah.blogspot.com/2026/08/157-rav-shimon-mekinon-who-was-great.html?m=1
As he published this piece a week ago
There's an old English children's rhyme, which gives various simanim for the number of magpies you see in one place. Some are good, some are bad.
DeleteNow the Torah forbids Nichush. But there seems to be good Nichush as well.
So can I count magpies for luck, or is it an aveirah?
"two resident Jew haters "
DeleteAs Woody Allen once said, " I hate myself, but it's not because I'm a Jew"
"I don't like politicians and leaders who encourage their followers to live in poverty and deny them the opportunity to prosper."
DeleteSo you also hate Chazal who very clearly set forth this as am ideal. Pas b'melach
KA specifically mentioned "Hareidim" not the leaders or the movement
DeleteCheck
Mate
It was aimed at experiences and chess games with hareidi rabbis from yeshivas I've been associated with.
DeleteSo yes - not attacking the fine people who are shomrei Torah, baalei chesed, and the backbone of klal yisrael.
Or - that there is a small but significant basis to rejecting multiplicity, chomer in theology - starting with the Rambam, through the Noda BeYehuda, and the Gaon of Teiman Rav Yichiye kapach.
On this issue I'm not even with Rav kook.
So there's a minority opinion that says shituf is permitted for non Jews. My argument is that it is definitely forbidden for Jews.
DeleteCheck mate 🧉
> So you also hate Chazal who very clearly set forth this as am ideal. Pas b'melach
DeleteExcept that's not what they meant, otherwise all the fabulously wealthy Chachachim like Rebbe would've given their fortunes away to live in poverty and they didn't.
They meant that even if you only have that, live a life of Torah. Learn some more.