Monday, August 5, 2013

Are Orthodox Feminists the agents of change in the Israeli Orthodox World?

New Republic [...] But Haredi men continued to harass women in Beit Shemesh. Less than a year later, in June 2012, Vered Daniel, an acquaintance of Philipp’s, went shopping in a Haredi neighborhood. In a special effort to respect ultra-Orthodox sensitivities, she wore a long skirt and blouse. Although modest by modern-Orthodox standards, Daniel’s outfit marked her as someone who was clearly not Haredi. When she left her car with her infant daughter in her arms, Haredi men screamed at her for dressing immodestly and spat on her. Alarmed, Daniel ran back to her car, locking herself and her baby inside as the mob battered the vehicle with sticks and stones, shattering a window.

For Philipp, the attack on Daniel was “beyond the beyond.” “Attacking a mother with a young child in her arms—” recalls Philipp, her eyes filling with tears. “She was completely helpless.” The incident drove her to do something she would previously never have contemplated. Like most Orthodox women, there was little about the word “feminism” that spoke to Philipp. She did not consider herself political. But as tensions grew in Beit Shemesh, she had started to follow the debates in online women’s groups, “deep debates,” she says, “about pluralistic society, tolerance.” It was, she says, “my first real exchange with secular and non-Orthodox Israelis.”

The day after Daniel’s attack, Philipp filed a police complaint over the city’s failure to remove the modesty signs. But then, rightly sensing that this would result in little change, she reached out to a woman from a world completely different than her own. In doing so, she became a pivotal figure in a clash between the ultra-Orthodox and a widening coalition of women to determine the core values of Israeli society. [...]

Haredim have sought to drive “corrupt” elements out of their neighborhoods by making them inhospitable places for those who are not ultra-Orthodox. The victims of this strategy are usually women, whose bodies have become the battleground in what is essentially a religious turf war. And as Philipp and Vered Daniel learned, the harassment can easily become violent. Miriam Friedman Zussman, a modern-Orthodox friend of Philipp’s, says: “I never considered myself a feminist. I didn’t think I had to be. Then suddenly, you start to say, ‘You want me to wear what? You want me to say what? You want my daughter to wear what?’... It’s the boiled frog theory."

And so, for the first time, women like Nili Philipp have started to cross the secular-religious divide. [...]

Nili Philipp had briefly met, and liked, Erez-Likhovski when she had testified before a Knesset committee on religious women’s issues. And when she decided to fight back against the Haredim, it was Erez-Likhovski she called. She knew she was doing something new. Most Israelis would “never think that religious women would align themselves with those radical feminist women from the Reform movement,” says Philipp. “They would just assume we’d be good girls and listen to our rabbis.” [...]

39 comments :

  1. But is it accurate to refer to the woman in the picture as Orthodox "Feminist?!" The secular media wish it were so, but I don't believe that woman is a feminist. Just wants basic safety for her child and herself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. never said she was a feminist. However she is one of the factors described in the article causing the alliance of Orthodox women with feminists

      Delete
    2. There is a need to discuss the issue of pushing specific chumros upon the residents of Israel, expecting them to accept peacefully and not forecasting the 'end result'.
      My belief is that the issues we are countering presently re: Anti-Charedi government, harsh decrees, changes in Religious status quo, WOW at the Kosel, etc. all emanate from the most-recent extremism of Charedi life in Israel.

      Delete
    3. That woman in the picture is a Ms. Margolese from Israel. She is an apikorus. She has a blog where she is calling for women to stop saying the brocho She'asani Kirtzono and for men to stop saying the brocho of Shelo Asani Isha. She deems it sexist. She is training her boys, she says, to skip that brocho.

      She also is a member of the "Women of the Wall" Reform group that goes to the Kosel every Rosh Chodesh in a Talis and Tefilin and tries to sing out loud and make a scene and ruckus.

      Recently she also has been attacking "mikva ladies" for looking over women who go to the mikva to make sure there is no chatzitza. She deems that process sexist too. As a result of her attacks on the mikva ladies she was forced to move out of Beit Shemese Alef, a pretty liberal American Modern Orthodox community itself, because even her own MO/RZ/DL neighbors realized she has taken her feminism and her War Against the Torah way too far.

      Delete
    4. To Rav Eidensohn:
      "never said she was a feminist. However she is one of the factors described in the article causing the alliance of Orthodox women with feminists" The only cause for the "alliance" mentioned in the article is the disrespectful, even to the point of violence, behavior displayed by some Chareidi men, and the inadequate response from Chareidi leaders (both rabbonim and the mayor of bet Shemesh. )

      To Ben Torah: I wouldn't say sexist, but the proper halachic function of the mikveh lady is to make sure the woman's hair isn't floating, not to supervise the preparation of the woman. My wife has also encountered mikveh ladies who arrogantly presume to correct her preparation, in in matters about which she has asked shailos from prominent rabbonim.

      Delete
    5. I know you didn't call her one, Rabbi E. I was more referring to the author of the article, which does refer to her as such. It's kind of a dishonest headline by new republic and reflects the media's biases.

      Delete
  2. For every action there is an equal and oppsite reaction, in life as well as physics.
    Some Chareidim seem to believe the rule doesn't apply to them: they can act but are immune to reactions. They can insult, but cannot be insulted. They can attack, but not be attacked.
    The result? Decent, genuinely Torah observant people are driven to associate with folks who might have an anti-Jewish agenda just to maintain their self-respect.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The so-called "Orthodox" feminazis are reshoyim no better than the Reform and Conservative.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. a truly helpful, constructive remark that will help am yisrael bring the geulah.

      Delete
  4. A feminist of any variety is an anti-social anti-nature fools whose agenda is at odds with Torah Judaism as they seek to rewrite Halacha that they deem insufficiently up-to-date for the 21st Century.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Where is the self-defense that Jews under threat should be collectively organizing?

    ReplyDelete
  6. I'm not a feminist and I don't wish to expand my role into new directions, but in my profession, I have gotten to know many young ffb women who have been expressing their dissatisfaction aloud. In my generation, those of us who were disappointed with our marginal roles in the frum community grumbled quietly and with much shame. But this generation feels more empowered.
    I know that a change is coming. I can't help but think that it would be better that we make the proper changes ourselves, rather than having them imposed from the outside.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Change always comes. Reform brought a liberalizing change to Jewish life. Communism brought a liberalizing change to Jewish life. And many others. Mr. Avi Weiss's YCT/IRF is also seeking to bring a liberalizing change to Jewish life that includes additional roles for women.

      Delete
    2. Bunsa, it is apparent that most of the comments here are from the male gender who are far from understanding where 'shomer Shabbos/frum' women are coming from. In agreement that it would be better that we make the proper changes ourselves....except it doesn't look like that will ever happen so instead it will end up being imposed from the outside.

      Delete

  7. There is nothing wrong with feminists. Without them, women wouldn't have the vote or decent jobs. The fact they are still disliked shows that society has a way to go.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The world spun on its axis quite fine before women voted. Things were in fact better those days. There is no need for them to vote. Men were doing just fine.

      Delete
    2. Was Rabbeinu Tam - bedieved - a feminist?

      Delete
    3. correction - Rabbeinu Gershom!

      Delete
    4. Dick Tracy,

      You are quite right that there is no need for women to vote.

      The women's vote caused more and more leftist politicians to be elected, causing a matriarchal US government that continually grows much larger, much more corrupt, and much more totalitarian.

      The women's vote elected Chairman Obama, the first dictator and most corrupt leftist, anti-constitutional politician in American history. King Obongo's government will probably soon go bankrupt bringing down the whole US economy.

      There's probably never been a successful matriarchy in history.

      Delete
    5. Eddie,

      Yes, Rabbeinu Gershom was a feminist. Take a look at the SHUT HaRosh 42:1. He says very clearly that Rabbeinu Gershom sought to make the power of a woman EQUAL to the power of a man. His words: ותקן להשוות כח האשה לכח האיש

      Delete
    6. Not sure why you are saying he is a feminist. When the rabbis approved women voting was it because they were feminist or pragmatists who didn't want to lose the political power that women's vote provided?

      Similarly was Rabbeinu Gershon's motivation to given equal rights or did he see the needs of his society required equal rights in certain areas - but in another era he would have not made his decrees?

      The Gaonim in the area of divorce clearly provided that if a woman said her husband was disgusting that she got a divorce - but that apparently was the result of women who were stuck in marriages convertng to Christianity or Islam. That is not feminism but pragmatism.

      Delete
    7. Daas Torah - "The Gaonim in the area of divorce clearly provided that if a woman said her husband was disgusting that she got a divorce" -

      At that time a man could also marry more than one wife. So if a first wife was not able to divorce her husband, after he took a second wife and neglected the first wife, the first wife would be at a distinct disadvantage.

      The feminists citing the Rambam's halacha about female initiated divorce never mention that the Rambam allowed a man to marry multiple wives, and if a wife did demand a divorce, she could not take any of the husband's property.

      @Eddie - feminists do not accept that men have equal rights, they seek to make men second class citizens. The ORA feminists never to my knowledge demanded that Tamar Epstein return her child to the father's city and allow the father equal access.

      Delete
    8. It is the language of the Rosh which is instructive. He doesnt say that Rabbenu Gershom sought to alleviate a particular problem. He says that he sought to make the powers of a woman equal to that of a man.

      Your distinction with women voting is correct. The rabbis approving women voting may have been doing so for pragmatic purposes but if that is the case, they probably wouldnt have said they were doing so to make the woman's power equal to a man's. It is the reason given by the Rosh that I was pointing to.

      Delete
    9. Queen Elizabeth and Golda Meir didn't seem to do too bad

      Delete
    10. It is all relative - in the time of Rabbeinu Gershom, there was no "feminism" so to speak, it came 950 years later. The issue is whether for his day, he was more open to women's legal rights than other poskim. Even if his motivation was due to external factors.

      Delete
    11. "Golda Meir didn't do too bad" - Well I we ignore history, we could pretend that comment is true.

      Delete
    12. Eddie wrote:
      It is all relative - in the time of Rabbeinu Gershom, there was no "feminism" so to speak, it came 950 years later. The issue is whether for his day, he was more open to women's legal rights than other poskim. Even if his motivation was due to external factors.
      =============
      Eddie it is rather a poor use of the term feminism. Accordingly you can refer to Chazal as feminists for instituting kesuba. A definition that includes almost everyone is not a useful definition.

      You can't simply say that anyone who was in anyway in favor of a halacha that somehow empowered women or brought them greater rights is a feminist. According to that definition who wasn't a feminist?

      Delete
    13. In my first question I asked if R' Gershom was bedieved feminist. I should have have written "feminist" precisely for the reasons you state.

      Next, i write it is all relative. This is also correct. Since in ELY's post, he writes that feminsts /Ora etc do not see men as equal, but to be 2nd class citizens. This is also an extreme statement, which goes even beyond the modern use of the term.

      It is a bit like asking whether Maimonides was a rationalist. It is a relative term. Relative to his controversialists, he was more rationally inclined. Perhaps less so than Saadia and Ibn Ezra, who were even more radical/rational on the understanding Torah and interpreting the mitzvot. In modern times, he might not be at all rationalist, since that might be a term used by bible critics etc.

      Since there is no agreed definition of the term,a nd that I did not express any such definition, then you cannot impose on me a definition I did not use. :)

      Delete
  8. how is it that almost every comment here ignores what the article actually talks about and instead focus on the goodness or evil of feminism?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Typical of bloggers, go off and rant about something rather than the main dish served in front of you.

      Delete
    2. Yo' Ben -- This article IS about feminism.

      Delete
    3. nope, it is about changes in the dati leumi society.

      Delete
    4. Both the title and the article have feminist explicitly written all over it.

      Delete
    5. i suppose if i want to be post modern than i can say that what people see as the main topic is a reflection of their beliefs, and not a statement on the article itself. so for people for whom the word feminism is a red sheet, the article is about feminism. OK.

      Delete
  9. Yes, and under the enlightened men-only rule of Hitler, Stalin, Attila the Hun, Napolean, oh hang on, is there a single female murderous dictator in recorded history?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All those evil men had wives and girlfriends who share responsibility for the evil. A rasha's wife is held responsible for his rishus, under halacha.

      Delete
    2. Eva Braun, Hitler's mistress, was an absolutely harmless person

      Delete
  10. " is there a single female murderous dictator in recorded history?"

    Jiang Qing, aka Madame Mao? Ranavalona of Madagascar? Some of the women profiled in Antonia Fraser's "The Warrior Queens" might qualify.

    But back to our mutton: The New Republic article (both authors are terrific journalists) describe the attempted murder of Nili Phillips and the official tolerance of the terrorism against little Naama Margolese –– until it began to generate bad PR, at which point, "although no prominent Haredi rabbis publicly condemned the protesters, they disappeared overnight." The obvious implication is that there are leaders in RBS who can stop terrorism when they want to.

    Now some Orthodox women have decided not to put up with that situation and made contact with feminists who know how to make a stink and bring bad PR to bear on the perpetrators, and it's hit the mainstream media in the US.

    It's all very well to decry the feminists who are using this to further their agendas. Of course they are. So are community leaders who can stop terrorism against women and girls... or not.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. agree with every word.

      all of this screaming and yelling about the DL woman partnering with the feminist: when you guys are willing to stand up against those throwing stuff, then you can talk. as of now, all this complaining is nothing but a bunch of guys who can't handle women who stand up.

      Delete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.