Igros Moshe (YD III #82) Question: What is the significance of secular studies for yeshiva students? Answer It is well known in the Torah world what I have stated on many occasions to bnei Torah concerning secular studies. Not only bnei Torah but also to yeshiva students who are capable of growing in Torah and pure fear of G-d. Secular study even if it doesn’t have any heretical ideas or co-ed classes is prohibited since it means neglecting eternal life which that alone is prohibited even after growing in Torah to a very high level as is seen from the gemora in Tanis (21a) concerning Rav Yochanon and Ilfa. However for yeshiva students and young kollel men who haven’t achieved sufficient mastery of Torah and nevertheless are involved in secular studies, it is not possible for them to develop properly in Torah studies in this generation since that requires exclusive devotion to Torah.to understand it properly and he is squandering his abilities on secular study. An addition problem is that eventually secular study becomes his main concern. That is inevitable since his yetzer advises him to increasingly ignore the study of Torah so he has more time to devote for secular studies which he needs for parnossa. Even if this doesn’t happen it is still impossible to grow properly in Torah or even be a partial Torah scholar and ben Torah if he is stealing time and effort from his Torah studies in order to study secular subjects. Consequently instead of growing in Torah he is constanting diminishing. This is especially true after it is clear that those who go to college are more successful. This success causes people to go to schools in which there are all the abominations in the world. People rationalize that it is only for a short time and that he won’t be corrupted there even though everyone knows the rationalizations are not true. Irregardless anyone who is involved in secular studies can not even be a ben Torah and surely not a talmid chachom. Furthermore every ben Torah and yeshiva student needs to be aware of the great destruction of Torah by secular studies because of the great obligation for Torah study and growing to be a godol in Torah, halacha and fear of G-d. Consequently it is plainly and simply prohibited for bnei Torah and yeshiva students who are capable growing in Torah and instead they steal time and effort for secular studies, despite the silence and that this is not told to all Jews and not even to all religious Jews. Concerning parnossa, I have already said many times that this is the advice of the wicked that is mentioned at the beginning of Tehillim. This also results in great punishment. Those that listen and don’t desert Torah at all should be blessed with success in Torah according to their desires as well as all material things and all blessings.
It's assur to live in a town without a doctor. So if it's a Jewish doctor he's wicked as per tehillim. Is it therefore assur to see a Jewish doctor?
ReplyDeleteOr optician, etc...?
Where do you see a doctor is inherently wicked?
Deleteit is not what Rav Moshe said
"Concerning parnossa, I have already said many times that this is the advice of the wicked"
DeleteMedicine is one of the best and prestigious careers and can make a great parnassah
Yes, that's exactly what Rav Moshe is explaining. Maybe the Vilna Gaon, zt"l, could've learned enough medicine to be a doctor using bathroom reading but pretty much no one passes the licensing exam using that technique today. Doctors must take secular studies. They must complete at least one undergraduate degree and that degree is usually in science. That's secular study. 4 years of med school is secular study. Residency is full of secular study and keeping up to date on the latest advances is secular study.
DeleteDid Rav Moshe, zt"l, refuse to go to Jewish doctors because parnossa is the advice of the wicked? Did he refuse Dr Fred Rosner's request to become the posek of the Einstein Medical School because it was a secular study school and therefore a refuge of non-Bnei Torah?
When I was much younger and was recommended to hareidi shadchanim, they were not interested in my level of yiras Hashem, or learning or anything, other than money - parnassah.
ReplyDelete>Even if this doesn’t happen it is still impossible to grow properly in Torah or even be a partial Torah scholar and ben Torah if he is stealing time and effort from his Torah studies in order to study secular subjects
ReplyDeleteI guess he never met Dr Abraham Abraham or Dr Avraham Steinberg?
It's more rhetoric than anything else.
DeleteOk doesn't want yeshivas to lose students to unholy universities.
But there are Jewish doctors. His son in law was professor of biology.
Rav shach's Rebbetzen actually trained as a doctor but didn't practice...
So maybe this is directed at a particular audience.
Igros Moshe (YD IV #36.12) the study of medicine today is not relevant to most of those who want to be bnei Torah and also talmidei chachomim. Even if you can find individuals who are talmidei chachomim and also doctors in reality they have not achieved their full potential in Torah. In addition even in the field of medicine they have not accomplished their full potential unless medicine is their principal focus in which case eventually there will be a degradation of their Torah knowledge. Even though it is possible that there will be unique individuals who as doctors will also be genuine Torah scholars this is clearly not relevant for everyone and one should not assume automatically that he will be able to accomplish this level. .
DeleteDid Rav Moshe, zt"l, know where food comes from? Because I'll bet that farmers also don't accomplish their full potential but without them we'd starve.
DeleteThis discussion was already had in the previous century. Rav Hirsch and Rav Hildesheim er were in favour of tide or MO.
DeleteThe eastern European Gedolim held different from them, but could not assail their greatness.
There's quite a few frum rabbis with university education and PhDs. The Twerski brothers, Rav triebitz, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav JB soloveitchik..
DeleteIt could be these are the exceptions..
I'm simply not on a level to raise arguments with a Gaon such as Rav Moshe. Maybe this viewpoint is so outside of the mindset of modern orthodox or TIDe that we simply ignore it.
The dark side of the Eastern European approach was that it sacrificed the vast majority of Jews to assimilation and the influence of the Haskalah. The whole "Let 1000 be destroyed so that one gadol is produced" accompanied by "Why did they leave frumkeit?" did not produce a happy, functioning frum community
DeleteSince most of the tax of Israel is earned from secular pursuits, then yeshivas should not be allocated government money. Even income from offshore gas _ you need to train offshore petrochemical engineers, and marketing people to mine it. Lawyers to close deals.
ReplyDeleteEvil, should not inflict yeshivas with tainted money.
A few years back, I was speaking to a chareidi rabbi, who was somewhere between misnagdic and chassidic. And has become further chassidic more recently. He was critical of the Lithuanian leadership towards university. He said people aren't allowed to Go to university, and then can't find jobs, or get married.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what Rav Moshe is arguing here. That bitachon will get you the job? Or a benefactor?
And why did he spend time talking to doctors if they are reshaim?